PDA

View Full Version : What's wrong with this set up?


gusbuster
03-20-2007, 06:18 PM
Just wondering if any of you could spot a problem with this set-up?

What would you have differently?

JB1
03-20-2007, 06:20 PM
Ahh, its not level.

Dirty Water
03-20-2007, 06:43 PM
Hose bib before backflow is against code.

The fact that the line goes down and them back up to the backflow makes me thing there are valves or other goodies before the backflow.

Why did they use a doublecheck but suspend it in the air like an RPZ? Doublechecks can and should be buried.

Unless it is a RPZ, but it sure looks like a Febco doublecheck to me, I can't see a relief valve from that angle. Some municipalities frown about unions on backflows, especially in a warm climate like CA where you don't need to remove them for the winter.

Looks like crap too.

Pick up your flushcaps :)

Mike Leary
03-20-2007, 07:03 PM
Yes, it does look like a DCVA, what a dumb s..t install.

Wet_Boots
03-20-2007, 07:04 PM
Relief is on the bottom of a Watts 009 ~ the concrete next to the foundation makes for a clumsy install. If there was a spot closer in, where the pipe could drop into the ground, I'd do things much differently.

'Hose bib before backflow' is kind of irrelevant. Nothing in that photo establishes anything upstream of the RPZ as sprinkler-system-only plumbing, and no one need torture themselves trying to infer any such thing. It would be more to the point to say what one's local inspector would claim as a violation. (and we all know inspector opinions/declarations and actual code are not one and the same)

Mike Leary
03-20-2007, 07:08 PM
Jon, hose bib BEFORE double-check is o.k. as long as you don't hook-up drip
or other stuff. Standard lawn sprinklers provide the air-gap. sequim guy?

Dirty Water
03-20-2007, 07:11 PM
Jon, hose bib BEFORE double-check is o.k. as long as you don't hook-up drip
or other stuff. Standard lawn sprinklers provide the air-gap. sequim guy?

I used to be from Sequim, I relocated a few months back. Did irrigation there for a while.

You?

Hose Bibs before backflow is most certianly a no-no for most codes. I know its not a big deal in WA, but GusBuster is in CA, and they are anal about stuff like that.

Out here you can't even install regular hosebibs on the sides of houses anymore, you have to use one with a built in atmospheric breaker.

Mike Leary
03-20-2007, 07:17 PM
Jon, My H.D. Fowler guy, David, had told me about you being one of a VERRY
few folk who had the passsion and knowledge. Sorry to hear you've left the
biz......you'll be back; once you've got the fever, hard to let go.
Mike

Wet_Boots
03-20-2007, 07:20 PM
Hose Bibs before backflow is most certainly a no-no for most codes. I know its not a big deal in WA, but GusBuster is in CA, and they are anal about stuff like that.What if the house is plumbed with a line exiting the structure, to a tee with two threaded outlets, and one of them is plugged, and the other has a hose bib. None of it is 'sprinkler system plumbing' - all you have is a plug and a hose bib. Make it a vacuum-breaker hose bib if you want. Now show me the code violation. There is no sprinkler system, so lose that section of any code you want to point at.

Dirty Water
03-20-2007, 07:20 PM
David's a great guy.

And he is right, in Sequim, and I won't say names, but we were the only company in that area that was at all competent that dealt with him.

I work in an office now. I've got a install lined up for my uncle in april, so I'll get my fix then :)

Dirty Water
03-20-2007, 07:23 PM
What if the house is plumbed with a line exiting the structure, to a tee with two threaded outlets, and one of them is plugged, and the other has a hose bib. None of it is 'sprinkler system plumbing' - all you have is a plug and a hose bib. Make it a vacuum-breaker hose bib if you want. Now show me the code violation. There is no sprinkler system, so lose that section of any code you want to point at.

That specific hose bib was obviously added when the sprinkler system was installed, in the eyes of an inspector, I'd go with that now being an unprotected element of the sprinkler system.

I understand your point, but if the sprinkler guy put it in when the tap was made....You should get my point too.


You sure thats a Watts BFD? Looks a lot like a Febco to me.

Mike Leary
03-20-2007, 07:35 PM
Jon, Same with us on Bainbridge...I like to think we made David a honest
rep....at least he has learned from you & me what's right.....not cost-wise,
but WHAT'S RIGHT!!!

Dirty Water
03-20-2007, 07:40 PM
Did David mention me specifically, or the company I worked for? I was their foreman, so I dealt with David on occasion, but he might have been talking about the actual company owner Dave. Regardless, Dave taught me almost everying I know, and is a great guy.

Russ is working in Bainbridge, he is new to irrigation but from what I've read here is striving to do quality work.

I've been meaning to ferry across and check him out sometime. Maybe I'll get two for one :)

Wet_Boots
03-20-2007, 07:40 PM
Watts 009 series have the relief under the center cover, with a bottom outlet. It operates on a vertical axis.

I still think installing a vacuum breaker on the hose bib would answer any written code requirement. If the hose bib question becomes a problem for me, I'll just go to a 1/2" PVC plug for winterizing, upstream of the BP (and I have yet to see any written code that forbids such)

Dirty Water
03-20-2007, 07:47 PM
I guarantee you that its a Febco 850:

http://www.sprinklersupplies4less.com/nss-folder/pictures/febco850sm.jpg

Watts 009 has the testcocks in a different location and green handles, and you should still be able to see the outlet of the relief.

http://www.vcmwd.org/backflow/527.jpg

Mike Leary
03-20-2007, 07:50 PM
Jon... Russ bought my company last year...I'm helping him get his feet wet.
He's a important addition to the art/trade. It was you David mentioned more
than once about being the "northern one".

Dirty Water
03-20-2007, 08:01 PM
Well now I have to buy 2 beers when I come across the pond.

You guys work weekends?

Wet_Boots
03-20-2007, 08:02 PM
Your photo is of a Watts 009M2, and the installation we're discussing here has a 3/4" Watts 009M3, which is much like the 007 DCVA (note the two testcocks on the relief cover - the DCVA has one)

Mike Leary
03-20-2007, 08:07 PM
Jon....Don't get going with Russ, he makes his own !!!!!!!!!! beer!
Being older, and in semi retirement, I favor a red wine.
Do give a holler if you'd like to see some Rain Master cool sites!

Dirty Water
03-20-2007, 08:07 PM
You might be right boots, but I'll wait until Gusbuster confirms before I concede :)

Dirty Water
03-20-2007, 08:10 PM
Hayes (PurpHaze) will be retiring moving up here at the end of the summer from Cali, so we should all get together and have a "no longer working in the irrigation business" get together while we watch Russ do a hard repair. Should be great fun.

Wet_Boots
03-20-2007, 08:20 PM
I've installed the 009M3, so it was an easy ID - Now me, I'd go back to the original photo, and look to exploit what might be a space between the concrete, and bring my down pipe there, much closer to the house. I'd also pull out the pipe nipple and thread in a shorter one and a tee, like in my hypothetical plumbing example. If it was flat ground, and on the 'utility side' (amongst gas and electric meters and air conditioning) of the house, I might even look to use a PVB, even if it had to be a taller setup, as long as I could brace it to the house.

Dirty Water
03-20-2007, 08:23 PM
Why do you think the installer went below grade before going to the backflow?

What do you suspect is in that box? :)

Wet_Boots
03-20-2007, 08:29 PM
What's buried? Jimmy Hoffa, of course. :p

There might a line to other hose bibs. Maybe some extra stability there, as opposed to a lot of above-ground plumbing. At least it's all copper, above ground.

Mike Leary
03-20-2007, 08:46 PM
It's a piece of junk.......hello?

Wet_Boots
03-20-2007, 08:51 PM
So, how do you install an RPZ with there being maybe a foot of concrete beyond the house?

Mike Leary
03-20-2007, 08:52 PM
Jon & hangerons....we'd love to see you guys......yes......it is great to see
the pup (Russ with his Kenyon trenching shovel & knee pads) I did it.
You'd like to look at the site w/the Davis weather station, Rain Master clock.

Mike Leary
03-20-2007, 09:04 PM
Bring the piping out to a concrete slab w/ drain & hot box/faux box.
No one should ever see this sort of lashup.

Wet_Boots
03-20-2007, 09:07 PM
If that isn't in their budget, or landscaping plans, then you turn down the job. It would help to see a wider shot of the area.

gusbuster
03-20-2007, 09:46 PM
Ahh, its not level.
Picture was taken from a higher spot giving the illusion it wasn't level. Look at the shadows on the wall.

Wet_Boots
03-20-2007, 10:07 PM
What I like least of the existing setup is the copper pipe coming out of the lawn. I always figure them on being clobbered by mowers. At least it isn't PVC. An RPZ with elbowed inlet and outlet would made a more compact and out-of-harm's-way installation.

gusbuster
03-20-2007, 11:05 PM
Your photo is of a Watts 009M2, and the installation we're discussing here has a 3/4" Watts 009M3, which is much like the 007 DCVA (note the two testcocks on the relief cover - the DCVA has one)
Your right, it is a Watts 009 and not Febco.

This picuture was taken before it passed inspection. I really didn't have a choice but to do what I did since this house is a slab foundation and what you see is part of the foundation. A big no no is to modify anyway the foundation. This location is in a backyard. Didn't want to put it in the front because of asthics and couldn't do it on either side since it's all cement. Since then, I now have a cage so to prevent my kids from hitting, jumping or playing with it.

The hose bib does have a vacum breaker on it, though it is not used for anything other than for a water slide that is used during the hot months.

Per the inspector, though he did let it pass, the unions should of been on the up and down side of pipes and not as I have it now. The reason for the unions, in case we do get a severe freezing like we did this past winter i can shut off the ball valve, take off the rpz and only have to insulate what is sticking out.


Bring the piping out to a concrete slab w/ drain & hot box/faux box.
No one should ever see this sort of lashup.

I did think about using a pad but went against it. Reason why is from the house wall to the fence is only under 9 ft and then you have the protruding foundation.


This is the first time that I installed an inline valve system. Because of the simple fact that I normally will only install asv's and don't have to take any other percautions other than making sure I'm at the proper height.

gusbuster
03-21-2007, 12:30 AM
What I like least of the existing setup is the copper pipe coming out of the lawn. I always figure them on being clobbered by mowers. At least it isn't PVC. An RPZ with elbowed inlet and outlet would made a more compact and out-of-harm's-way installation.

Are you thinking I used thin walled vs rigid copper? The pipe is rigid and though you can put a pick through it(pointed pick), it will take a blow from a mower or a roto tiller(it did also)

Since I normally will not work with galvanized pipe, I have no cutting\threading equipment.

The reason for being a little wide, well believe or not, just under the rpz is a former anchor for a PG&E pole (cement going down 6 ft plus). I found it after digging 6" of soil.

Like I said earlier, not much choices when it came for a poc since everything is cement. Don't know the reason, but pretty much all the houses in my general area uses a slab vs traditional foundation. When all your water supplies is in cement, you don't have many choices. I pray to god that none of the buried pipe ever burst or leaks in the living area.

John

gusbuster
03-21-2007, 12:35 AM
Why do you think the installer went below grade before going to the backflow?

What do you suspect is in that box? :)

As was said later than your post, it was to help with stability for both the poc point and rpz and not to hide anything.

PurpHaze
03-21-2007, 11:34 PM
Hayes (PurpHaze) will be retiring moving up here at the end of the summer from Cali, so we should all get together and have a "no longer working in the irrigation business" get together while we watch Russ do a hard repair. Should be great fun.

I'm game for that. Never been to Bainbridge Island so would love to sample some home brew there. But, like Mike said, as I get older the wine sure starts tasting a LOT sweeter. :)

Had to go to Bay Area for two days for a doctor's appointment on my replaced right knee. Come back and this thread has run amok. You can tell it's warming up. :laugh:

Wet_Boots
03-22-2007, 12:15 AM
Are you thinking I used thin walled vs rigid copper? The pipe is rigid and though you can put a pick through it(pointed pick), it will take a blow from a mower or a roto tiller(it did also)It doesn't matter what weight of copper is there. It could be sch 120 steel, for all that matters. I see a drop pipe in the lawn, and I can envision a lawn mower striking it. Remember, all we see is one photo, and everything else must be guessed, like maybe some kid with a 48" ZTR running into things. I think more of the brass/plastic transition breaking from major collision.

Hank Reardon
03-22-2007, 12:30 AM
I'm game for that. Never been to Bainbridge Island so would love to sample some home brew there. But, like Mike said, as I get older the wine sure starts tasting a LOT sweeter. :)

Had to go to Bay Area for two days for a doctor's appointment on my replaced right knee. Come back and this thread has run amok. You can tell it's warming up. :laugh:

We usually have 4 taps available plus I nearly always have wine "in stock, no waiting", so i"m sure there will something for you! Make that knee feel lots better :) .

I agree with Boots, there ain't much stopping a 48" "Z".

bicmudpuppy
03-22-2007, 07:09 AM
I agree with Boots, there ain't much stopping a 48" "Z".


an upright railroad tie in half a yard of concrete? or a 6" concrete filled steel post? but we were just discussing how ugly exposed backflows look, weren't we :)

DanaMac
03-22-2007, 10:30 AM
but we were just discussing how ugly exposed backflows look, weren't we :)

We can't help that here. but in the grand scheme of things, it's no worse than everything else that is exposed around the house - natural gas meter, electric service meter, phone and cable box, well/pump house that is in shambles, etc

gusbuster
03-22-2007, 10:59 AM
It doesn't matter what weight of copper is there. It could be sch 120 steel, for all that matters. I see a drop pipe in the lawn, and I can envision a lawn mower striking it. Remember, all we see is one photo, and everything else must be guessed, like maybe some kid with a 48" ZTR running into things. I think more of the brass/plastic transition breaking from major collision.
This is where demographics come into play. You'll never see a 48 mower on any of the proprieties in this area and for that reason, any urban area in CA. The lots are way to small. So choice for lawn mower is rarely above 21"

I will concede that I would agree with you if the bigger mowers were to be used and of course, if the lots were a lot bigger.

Even now in the valley in CA, the lot sizes have shrunk from 5 years ago. ( at least in my area, can't speak for Hayes though, he lives in the same valley .)Smaller lots, same size houses, the developers are able to fit 1 or 2 more houses for a profit of 3 to $400,000.

Wet_Boots
03-22-2007, 12:11 PM
I would have still stood the expense for a more compact RPZ install, that could have entered the soil at the point where the upstream pipe does now.

PurpHaze
03-23-2007, 09:21 AM
Even now in the valley in CA, the lot sizes have shrunk from 5 years ago. (at least in my area, can't speak for Hayes though, he lives in the same valley.) Smaller lots, same size houses, the developers are able to fit 1 or 2 more houses for a profit of 3 to $400,000.

Same "downsizing" at my end of the valley. :)

People not familiar with California often don't realize that the "central valley" (running from Redding in the north to Bakersfield in the south is what... 4-500 miles long? :laugh:

gusbuster
03-23-2007, 03:37 PM
Same "downsizing" at my end of the valley. :)

People not familiar with California often don't realize that the "central valley" (running from Redding in the north to Bakersfield in the south is what... 4-500 miles long? :laugh:
Well my in-law lives in Redding, takes him 3 hrs to get to here in Manteca, it takes me almost 3 hrs to get to the grape vine, so your call of 500 miles is pretty close. Now how wide is another story.

But the funny part is most of the people in this state live south of both of us.

irrig8r
03-23-2007, 09:59 PM
But the funny part is most of the people in this state live south of both of us.

Yeah, dam it... they use most of our water too.

PurpHaze
03-24-2007, 12:08 AM
Yeah, dam it... they use most of our water too.

And a lot of other peoples' water too. :)

gusbuster
03-26-2007, 08:53 AM
Yeah, dam it... they use most of our water too.

Do you remember that the L.A. Basin is a desert?

Most of the rain fall\snow occurs up here in the north. So it is only logical that the water comes from up here north.

Have you ever seen just how big the Sacramento River is? Nothing like the Mississippi River, but it is a pretty good size river and fun to float on, that is if you don't get ran over by personal water craft.