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SteveG66
03-30-2007, 09:54 AM
Good Morning everyone,

I searched this site and was not able to find this topic, so i'm posting this to the irrigation professionals.

I am a homeowner with .5 acre yard. I am going to have a system installed yet this spring.

I have had two contractors come out and look at my property and quoted a price.

Contractor 1 is about $500 more expensive using rainbird equipment. He will use all PVC.

Contractor 2 will use pvc laterals and poly to the spray heads.

I live in Indiana with typical winter issues.

My dad has a system of PVC and he's had it for 25 years. I don't know much about poly?

Contractor 1 said that there is a reduction in line pressure from Poly and he likes pvc better.

I'd appreciate everyones unbiased opinions, please.

Thanks in advance for all your help,

SteveG

SprinklerGuy
03-30-2007, 10:18 AM
Reduction in pressure? I"m not sure about that.....


Contractor 2 will use pvc laterals and poly to the spray heads.

Assuming this means he will use 1-2 feet of funny pipe per head.....so essentially he is using all pvc as well....

Contractor 1 will not use pvc to the heads exactly...he will use poly or a swing joint...or perhaps he will use risers from pvc.....?

There are many different reasons to use poly vs pvc....poly usually does better if the pipe happens to freeze due to bad blowout or early/late freeze....

bobw
03-30-2007, 10:56 AM
Poly tends to be a northern climate solution and PVC used everywhere else.

Poly will have higher friction losses due to the way fittings are inserted into the pipe wherease PVC fittings are glued on the outside of the pipe. Proper design should ensure that this isn't an issue.

How are the contractors putting pipe into the ground? Trenching or plowing. If your yard is already landscaped, plowing is quite a bit less destructive.

You said that Contractor 1 was going to use Rainbird components. What is Contractor 2 using? Contractor grade materials vs. home improvment store grade materials is easily worth $500.

Wet_Boots
03-30-2007, 11:02 AM
Most sprinkler repairmen who have had to replace split PVC pipes, digging up at least twenty feet of a lawn to do so, are never likely to consider using any PVC in a lawn, except for making up a valve manifold.

Ground Master
03-30-2007, 11:02 AM
rainbird vs. hunter
ford vs. chevy
trenching vs. pulling
bud vs. coors
contractor 1 vs. contractor 2

when will that madness end.........

SteveG66
03-30-2007, 11:17 AM
Boy are you all fast!!!

I am sorry that I left out some details:

Both contractors will be plowing in the pipe, contractor 2 will also be using Rain Bird.

I agree, i'm probably splitting hairs here.

Any irrigation specialists in Indianapolis that check this forum? Please get a hold of me, sgrytz@msn dot com.

I know this question is probably asked quite often.

thx again,
SteveG

Critical Care
03-30-2007, 11:29 AM
As what Tony said, both contractors sound as if they are using PVC. Just disgregard the short runs of funny pipe to the sprinklers. So is poly even an issue here? Only if Contractor 2 is actually going to be pulling long lengths of poly should this matter.

However, since there can be a big difference in the quality of components, such as valves and controllers even under the same brand name, this could really be the selling point for one contractor over the other.

Dirty Water
03-30-2007, 11:56 AM
As far as I can tell, contractor 2 is going to pull in a PVC mainline, and then plow poly for the laterals, not just the swingjoint.

This is fairly common, as some people don't believe in constant pressure poly.

Wet_Boots
03-30-2007, 12:13 PM
You could get by without a mainline on a half-acre, depending on the geometry. I can think of a few designs I would rework, to probably have a mainline, now that copper for the indoor plumbing has become so pricey.

SteveG66
03-30-2007, 07:13 PM
Thanks to all for your input. It is greatly appreciated.

For whatever reason, I just feel better with the higher contractor. He was willing to give me a written quote and also was upfront with the materials he was going to use. He also followed up. THe other guy, shot me a price and I havent received a written proposal from him. He eyeballed the property and gave me a verbal.

He is using the 5000 series rotors from Rain Bird, ESP Controller from Rainbird, and PVC all the way around. The rotors, I noticed from Rain Bird's website, are plastic. I noticed they also carry stainless steel, is it worth the little extra to discuss SS with the contractor? Maybe they'll last longer? They'll certainly look better (not that anyone would know but me).

Does the RB equipment sound about right?

Thanks again,
Steve

Wet_Boots
03-30-2007, 07:24 PM
Don't they look better? Architects love to specify them. Your lawn could care less. Really sandy soil might justify them, maybe. I'd look for something else to throw money at.

jirrigation
03-30-2007, 08:13 PM
In my opinion the design of a sprinkler system will always have a much greater impact on the overall quality of a sprinkler system than the actual product will. From what I've read in your posts i would go with the contractor who gave you the written quote. If someone won't take the time to submit a written quote to get himself some business, I can only imagine what his service will be like.

Mike Leary
03-30-2007, 08:24 PM
Most sprinkler repairmen who have had to replace split PVC pipes, digging up at least twenty feet of a lawn to do so, are never likely to consider using any PVC in a lawn, except for making up a valve manifold.


I've been using sch 40 for 25 years...main & laterals, yo , friction loss has
to be considered....bulletproof if backfilled w/water & 711 glue used.
Slip-fix work below 80 psi, tho we do unions when possible. 20' tear-out?
you must need work. Class 200 breaks if you sneeze.

Wet_Boots
03-30-2007, 08:55 PM
I've been using sch 40 for 25 years...main & laterals, yo , friction loss has
to be considered....bulletproof if backfilled w/water & 711 glue used.
Slip-fix work below 80 psi, tho we do unions when possible. 20' tear-out?
you must need work. Class 200 breaks if you sneeze.The old systems I repaired seemed to have splits through an entire length of the PVC. The stuff absolutely hates the cold winter temperatures, combined with soil shifting. I was only seeing them for the first time, so who knows about winterizing. No question but that the sight of a full length of split PVC does not make the material look superior to poly.

Besides, the ability to pull pipe in curves is something one never gives up, once it is experienced. I'll work out the pressure losses, just give me my poly.

SteveG66
03-30-2007, 09:27 PM
Mike, Can you kindly elaborate regarding backfilling and using 711 glue.

The more I read about this thread, the more confused I am.

I thought I'd be narrowing it down to a simple decision. It seems to be going the other way. Nonetheless, I appreciate all the comments and hope this continues.

Thanks a bunch,
SteveG

Wet_Boots
03-30-2007, 09:38 PM
Don't let our back-and-forth confuse your choices. If the only estimates you have are for PVC pipe, then poly doesn't enter the picture. If you trust the installer enough to sign a contract and write a deposit check, then that's what matters. He will take care of the details, because he will have to maintain the system, and no good installer wants to have a string of faulty systems taking up his time.

Dirty Water
03-30-2007, 10:08 PM
You can pull PVC in a tighter curve than a plow can do, There is absolutely no difference.

This is SCH40, I'm referring too, class pipe is a crapshoot in our rocky soil.

The Rainbird 5000 is a decent rotor, I personally prefer the Hunter PGP for its reliability, but its far from a bad rotor.

Wet_Boots
03-30-2007, 10:18 PM
You can pull PVC in a tighter curve than a plow can do, There is absolutely no difference.Don't even go there. I've used a plow that could pull curves tighter than the radius of a coil of poly pipe.

Dirty Water
03-30-2007, 11:03 PM
Don't even go there. I've used a plow that could pull curves tighter than the radius of a coil of poly pipe.

Well, most of us use real plows, not dinky little walk behinds.

An interesting note, Our DW 410 could pull a much tighter corner than our old and much smaller VP-12.

Wet_Boots
03-31-2007, 08:26 AM
Well, most of us use real plows, not dinky little walk behinds.Jealousy ill becomes you.

PurpHaze
03-31-2007, 11:36 AM
For whatever reason, I just feel better with the higher contractor. He was willing to give me a written quote and also was upfront with the materials he was going to use. He also followed up. The other guy, shot me a price and I havent received a written proposal from him. He eyeballed the property and gave me a verbal.

Sounds like you found the guy to use. Many of us base our product use on the manufacturer and/or supplier rep and how he follows through on things we run into. We appreciate the service end of the supply line and rarely go with products from guys who don't get back to us.

I noticed they also carry stainless steel, is it worth the little extra to discuss SS with the contractor? Maybe they'll last longer? They'll certainly look better (not that anyone would know but me).

The only difference is that the sprinkler pop-up riser has SS. They're more tuned to the commercial application where longevity and reliability is a must. We use them exclusively (when available in a product line) to combat unusually sandy or clay applications which we have a lot of as the SS resists scratching better. Undue scratching of the pop-up riser leads to failed seals, failed retraction and non-rotating issues (depending on design) which are unacceptable on sports fields and other applications.

Mike Leary
03-31-2007, 12:28 PM
We switched over to Hunter I-20 Ultra 6" stainless heads when they came out
& had problem zero....worth the investment. The Ultra has a feature where
you can shut them off, unless you like being hosed when raising/lowering.

Critical Care
03-31-2007, 02:49 PM
Don't let our back-and-forth confuse your choices. If the only estimates you have are for PVC pipe, then poly doesn't enter the picture. If you trust the installer enough to sign a contract and write a deposit check, then that's what matters. He will take care of the details, because he will have to maintain the system, and no good installer wants to have a string of faulty systems taking up his time.

Umm... an installer will take care of the details and maintain the system if and only if that is what your contract or agreement states. There are many installers who do not maintain their installs. They're only in the business of doing installations, and though they may cover their installs up to a year, after that it's hasta la vista baby. No matter which contractor is picked for the job, it is wise to have a contract that covers these important matters.

And Steve, if you try to make heads or tails out of everything that is said on here, yeah, you may get more confused. The poly and pvc, trenching and plowing debate will never end. If you want to get more confused, then we can begin to debate Rainbird versus Hunter as well. Ol' Boots is a die hard poly pulling urban cowboy who would feel totally out of place in this area where everyone trenches in PVC, and likewise, I'd probably get strange looks if I were in his area running around with PVC on top of my truck.

Wet_Boots
03-31-2007, 03:48 PM
Umm... an installer will take care of the details and maintain the system if and only if that is what your contract or agreement states. There are many installers who do not maintain their installs. They're only in the business of doing installations, and though they may cover their installs up to a year, after that it's hasta la vista baby. No matter which contractor is picked for the job, it is wise to have a contract that covers these important matters.No contract will ensure continuing care of a system. Beyond a guarantee of a certain length, it's all voluntary on the part of the installer. Good ones won't vanish. They'll have done what's needed to make a system easy for them to maintain. (and reliable work is easier to maintain)

Mike Leary
03-31-2007, 04:11 PM
No contract will ensure continuing care of a system. Beyond a guarantee of a certain length, it's all voluntary on the part of the installer. Good ones won't vanish. They'll have done what's needed to make a system easy for them to maintain. (and reliable work is easier to maintain)

We have used the service angle to sell a lot of systems & I've told clients,
"you don't want to be rid of the sprinkler guy".

LCPullman
04-01-2007, 01:17 AM
Around here, there is one company that bids low and gets most of the jobs. The actual parts he uses are reasonable, mostly Rainbird, comparable to what I use and what everyone else uses, however, the difference is in how he installs it. For example, he always uses standard wire nuts and electrical tape, rather than waterproof, sealed connectors. With poly, he only puts one crimp clamp on each connection point rather than two. Sometimes he cuts corners on sprinkler spacing, etc. Essentially he cuts alot of corners. This probably won't be noticable to the customer, at least not for a while, but it makes for more problems later. So, I'm not one to suggest going for the lowest bid.

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 09:16 AM
In Ontario I've been installing poly for 25 years with a quality irrgation grade product. I have used PGP since the early 80's. I tried Nelson for one season, enough said about that product. In the last 5 years I have used the Hunter I-20 with very little problems. I have watched rRainbrid change thier rotors from model to design and now only in the last 5 or 6 years due they have something that may test time. I started offering the 5000 plus and even thou it sure looks like a hunter from the top it doesn't compare to a I-20 on the inside.

As far as picking a contactor, I have gone to customers and eye balled the property and left a verbal quote as well, after doing this for 25 years it's not hard to figure it out. There are many reasons one would leave a verbal quote and mostly have to due with the customer, if you smell a tire kicker your not going to waste your time. I can tell 9 out of ten times if they are serious or if they are going to be the one calling you night and day after you have done the job. I give a ten year warranty on the heads and 20 years on everything I put in the ground.

As far as installs and cutting corners, I use one cripped clamps on the none holding pressure side, never had to fix one. I use a silcone filled wire connector that security companys use, a few pennies each and never had a problem. The cap filled ones for contractors that the suppliers sell are a big cost and don't do any better, it's how careful you strip and connect that counts.

DanaMac
04-01-2007, 10:15 AM
With poly, he only puts one crimp clamp on each connection point rather than two.

The only place I ever use 2 clamps is right where the pipe fits to the valve or male adapter coming out of the valve. If you install the clamp directly on the barbs, you only need one. The only reason I do two at the valve, is that's the way I was taught and have continued to do it that way. I'd feel completely safe doing just one at the valve also.

Wet_Boots
04-01-2007, 10:48 AM
Kind of makes you wonder how many out there are still double-clamping the pipe at the valves. I do, and always did, on the vague theory that if I'm going to have a blown connection, I'd prefer it at some other location. Since most barbed fittings and valves are all barb, and not the barb-and-shoulder of past years, the double clamping could be looked at as more irrelevant than ever.

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 10:59 AM
I double clamp on the non static pressure side at the valve and on all static pressure lines, not on any thing after that. Using proper pipe matched with the fittings and clamps should not blow off.

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 11:02 AM
If you use the best quality the industry has to offer per your apllication and care and know about what you do then you can't go wrong, it's been a great to me over the years and lots of winters off.

Wet_Boots
04-01-2007, 11:04 AM
Manufacturers only recommend single clamps on the barbs, for fittings an inch or smaller. I've had unpressurized 2 inch mainlines that I would triple-clamp, with the shoulder clamp being a Loxon.

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 11:09 AM
Sorry, I am only speaking up to 1", I should have made that point.

Wet_Boots
04-01-2007, 11:17 AM
I'm not sure if they have anything more to say on insert fittings under constant pressure. I'd shoulder-clamp every one under my care, no matter what the manufacturer says. I do wonder about the all-barb modern fittings, in terms of larger sizes resisting the forces trying to blow out the connection, on constant-presssure applications. I always thought being able to clamp down the pipe on the smooth shoulder, behind the barbs, made for pullout resistance.

Critical Care
04-01-2007, 11:19 AM
No contract will ensure continuing care of a system.

True, in real life that is. No one is likely to have a contract stating that system maintenance is included for years to come. However, in my opinion, it's wise for a client to get in writing if and for how long the work and/or components of the install are guaranteed. FWIW, in this state by law I have to supply this information in a written contract whenever I do an install.

If a contractor charges more does that mean his work is better, or that he uses better parts? And if you hire cheap, do you get cheap? I think the first rule is to throw out all rules, including "you get what you pay for". Though cheap components will always be cheap to quality components, expensive installations can absolutely be inferior to less expensive installations.

DanaMac
04-01-2007, 11:23 AM
A couple things to maybe ask the two contractors, is do they have a fulltime service tech or two? And what do they charge for service work? Just so you get an idea for future repairs.

Wet_Boots
04-01-2007, 11:30 AM
Service Techs? What are those? :)

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 11:31 AM
You know I have heard that before about service techs, one of the contractors around here brags he has four full time service trucks on the road and I laugh at that thinking he must have a lot of poor systems in the ground that need constant repairs. I am the service tech and other then openings and closing I can handle all my service work no problem. I had a referral the other day and the person that referred me told this customer he only had me out once in seven years for a repair.

Look for warranty and reliabilty, if they know you have been around for a while and can back up your work with past customers words then the trust should be there.

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 11:37 AM
Be a smart consumer,

Get three quotes
Compare apples with apples, warranties, products
Get feed back from their customers

Then choose!

DanaMac
04-01-2007, 11:38 AM
If they have a fulltime service tech, they will also be working on other systems than their own. I haven't installed a system in 4 years. Most my work is on systems I never installed.

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 11:44 AM
Oh there is a service industry out there all right! I don't want to screw around with other contractors messes. You have to wonder what happened to the guy that put it in in the first place. Plus service techs cost money to have out there, most of then are slow and make mistakes causing call backs.
Not all but most, I can fix most repairs in know time and back on the job, other then start-ups and closings I make much more profit putting a system in then driving around paying $4.50 a gallon.

PurpHaze
04-01-2007, 11:51 AM
The Ultra has a feature where you can shut them off, unless you like being hosed when raising/lowering.

Why would you be raising/lowering sprinkler heads with the water on? You deserve to get wet! :laugh:

The "Flow Stop" also shuts down the sprinkler if the top is accidently chopped off thus eliminating a swampy area. I've been asking for years that they integrate this feature into the I-25 and I-40. Hopefully some day this will happen.

It's also great if you're adjusting sprinklers in an enclosed area such as those areas bounded by fencing or buildings. You shut down the Flow Stop on the nearest sprinkler and each successive one until you get to the one that is in need of adjustment. You adjust it and then back out of the zone turning each Flow Stop back on in turn. Works great.

DanaMac
04-01-2007, 11:53 AM
A lot of the companies here have install crews that speak little english. they can not talk with the customer about what the problem is. All markets are different. I find I can make a better profit by not driving around giving bids to all the tire kickers, and having to compete against the low ball companies, or the ones that hire low paid employees. The install companies that don't have a service tech, either can't find one, don't want to train one, find service to not be as profitable (yourself included Duramax), or just find it to be a pain in the a$$.

I like the challenge of finding a problem and fixing it. I don't have the patience to be on one job all day or a few days. Nothing wrong with either of our business models. We both like how we do things, and make good money doing it.

PurpHaze
04-01-2007, 11:56 AM
Sometimes he cuts corners on sprinkler spacing, etc.

OK... I'm specifically referring to bounded rectangle areas (areas contained within boundaries of sidewalks, buildings, fences, etc.): We have one company that bids out head-to-head square spacings and then installs triangular spacings cutting out 2-3 sprinklers per zone thus making more profit. Often there isn't even a sprinkler head in critical corners. These zones experience a lot of threadbare areas due to lack of water.

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 12:01 PM
Yes your right, everybody is different and without that things wouldn't get done. I have no trouble getting work, a few weeks doing the estimates and the rest of the season I am booked. I take it you must service a lot of commercial, that's another area I have no interest in, it's all cut throat here for that stuff. As far as a challenge, not likely, it's just crappy work I have come across. The challenge is to figure out what the hell they where thinking in the first place! lol

LCPullman
04-01-2007, 12:04 PM
Regarding double clamping poly connections: I first started doing it with drip pipe because if you single clamp a drip pipe, water can leak out where the crimp point is. So you have to put another clamp on right next to it and alternate the position of the crimp point. That may not happen on a 1" poly, but I still clamp it double. The other reason I double clamp 1" poly is that you get a much more solid connection if you double clamp. With a single clamp, you can easily rotate the fitting in the pipe, and I prefer to have a connection that won't rotate so easily.

DanaMac
04-01-2007, 12:08 PM
Yes your right, everybody is different and without that things wouldn't get done. I have no trouble getting work, a few weeks doing the estimates and the rest of the season I am booked. I take it you must service a lot of commercial, that's another area I have no interest in, it's all cut throat here for that stuff. As far as a challenge, not likely, it's just crappy work I have come across. The challenge is to figure out what the hell they where thinking in the first place! lol

99% residential. This time of year most of what we do is start ups, and repairing freeze damage. And the 2 of us can each be booked out 2-4 weeks in advance.

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 12:11 PM
Sounds like your not using matched pipe too clamps, I put one clamp on no pinching and almost impossible to turn. I have seen guys use two and three clamps and have leaks, the pipe you use makes a big differance.

PurpHaze
04-01-2007, 12:13 PM
I glue PVC and don't need clamps. :laugh:

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 12:13 PM
99% residential. This time of year most of what we do is start ups, and repairing freeze damage. And the 2 of us can each be booked out 2-4 weeks in advance.

I hear you and it sounds like you have a good thing going, I respect there is lots of service to be done systems out there.

bobw
04-01-2007, 12:18 PM
From my perspective, the main reason to do service calls is to keep those customers for blow outs. A full day of service work doesn't generate half the profit of a day's worth of install work. But.. my existing customers come first, so service gets priority, especially in the spring.

LCPullman
04-01-2007, 12:19 PM
Sounds like your not using matched pipe too clamps, I put one clamp on no pinching and almost impossible to turn. I have seen guys use two and three clamps and have leaks, the pipe you use makes a big differance.

The sizes are matched up just fine. And I think Interstate is the brand I get. But its not just my installs though, I see it on every other install up here with single crimp clamped pipe and they use different brands. I don't know why, but that's just what I find to be the case here.

No one uses the screw clamps here, those are a different matter.

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 12:20 PM
I feel the same way, but if I was to concentrate on just service and not installs I could do very well here in that as well.

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 12:25 PM
1" and smaller we don't use gear either, it took awhile to find a good poly here, some guys use a certified poly(CSA) but it is over kill to me for the none pressure side. I do have new guys put two clamps on incase they screw up the first one.

Wet_Boots
04-01-2007, 12:25 PM
Is any drip tubing sized as 'iron pipe size' like poly is? I always thought different connectors were used for drip.

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 12:26 PM
Not what we use here, it's different.

LCPullman
04-01-2007, 12:27 PM
Is any drip tubing sized as 'iron pipe size' like poly is? I always thought different connectors were used for drip.

The drip pipe I use has about the same ID. as a comparable poly size and they use the same connectors. It just is thinner walled and thus smaller OD.

Wet_Boots
04-01-2007, 12:34 PM
The drip pipe I use has about the same ID. as a comparable poly size and they use the same connectors. It just is thinner walled and thus smaller OD.'About the same' - I can see. Just curious, if you 'go by the book' and the manufacturer's recommendations, do crimp clamps still get used? Or do they have a different set of parts to sell you?

LCPullman
04-01-2007, 12:39 PM
'About the same' - I can see. Just curious, if you 'go by the book' and the manufacturer's recommendations, do crimp clamps still get used? Or do they have a different set of parts to sell you?

I say 'about the same' because I haven't taken the time to do exact measurements myself.
The 3/4" drip is the same as the 3/4" 100psi poly, same insert connectors, same clamps. I haven't ever used 1/2" poly but the 1/2" drip uses standard 1/2" insert connectors the standard 1/2" clamps. There is no question about them being the same size (IPS).

LCPullman
04-01-2007, 12:45 PM
I don't suppose you have ever gotten drip pipe from Dripworks? The standard 1/2" and 3/4" pipe they sell is the same size as I get from my local distributor and the standard PVC insert fittings and clamps are the same size as I get from my local distributor, same sizes that work with 100 psi poly.

Wet_Boots
04-01-2007, 12:47 PM
Not being a fan of drip, I haven't really been keeping up with it. I've used Rainbird tubing that was metric sized, to be pushed into compression-type fittings. No barbs and no clamps. It worked well enough. I always thought the thinwall tubing might have problems with crimp clamps, so I didn't think manufacturers would be planning for the same clamps and fittings that regular poly would use.

LCPullman
04-01-2007, 12:50 PM
Some drip pipe I have used was too soft and had problems with the clamps cutting into the pipe, but the interstate stuff I use now is pretty good in that respect.

Wet_Boots
04-01-2007, 01:00 PM
Oeticker does make a line of 'stepless' clamps, that have a complete band of metal, and no place for the pipe to bunch up and create a leak They also would work as 'goof clamps' since they don't have to be put on the pipe first.

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 01:04 PM
Do they have a web site....oeticker?

bobw
04-01-2007, 01:07 PM
Do they have a web site....oeticker?

http://www.oetiker.com/


I've always just assumed that everyone used these. Much faster to put on properly.

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 01:08 PM
Oh I use them just want to see whats new with them.

Wet_Boots
04-01-2007, 01:08 PM
Not sure. I saw the clamps at a trade show. I always had a few worm gear clamps on hand for goof-clamp duty, so I never pursued the idea.

bobw
04-01-2007, 01:15 PM
For 2" poly, I use Mikalor clamps (http://www.powerengineering.co.uk/mikalor/). Pricey, but reliable.

It's rare for me to use 2" poly, usually through sleeving under road ways where I don't want any joints at all. Barb adaptor on either side on the PVC and clamp with the Mikalors.

Wet_Boots
04-01-2007, 01:19 PM
Those Mikalors are the same as the Ideal Loxons

Wet_Boots
04-01-2007, 01:35 PM
Bad spelling, sort of. They spell it Lox-On® A bag of 6932 clamps can come in handy.

Mike Leary
04-01-2007, 01:56 PM
Why would you be raising/lowering sprinkler heads with the water on? You deserve to get wet! :laugh:

The "Flow Stop" also shuts down the sprinkler if the top is accidently chopped off thus eliminating a swampy area. I've been asking for years that they integrate this feature into the I-25 and I-40. Hopefully some day this will happen.

It's also great if you're adjusting sprinklers in an enclosed area such as those areas bounded by fencing or buildings. You shut down the Flow Stop on the nearest sprinkler and each successive one until you get to the one that is in need of adjustment. You adjust it and then back out of the zone turning each Flow Stop back on in turn. Works great.

I knew the minute I posted I'd put my size 12 in my mouth, again.

Mike Leary
04-01-2007, 02:11 PM
I glue PVC and don't need clamps. :laugh:

Same with us. If we do use poly for mainline, we'll use 200psi with Ford
Pack joints that clamp on the outside.

Dirty Water
04-01-2007, 02:13 PM
Same with us. If we do use poly for mainline, we'll use 200psi with Ford
Pack joints that clamp on the outside.

Same here, but we still do use insert fittings. I'm not a big fan of compression fittings.

This thread is very amusing, as over here, a system installed as described would be considered absolute crap.

Mike Leary
04-01-2007, 02:15 PM
Same here, but we still do use insert fittings. I'm not a big fan of compression fittings.

This thread is very amusing, as over here, a system installed as described would be considered absolute crap.

True Jon, why don't you like pack joints w/internal stiffeners?

Wet_Boots
04-01-2007, 02:27 PM
I was going to say that I could never envision clamped poly being any good for a home supply line, but then I remembered the 1 1/2" CTS 200-psi poly that was worm-gear clamped over a one-inch pipe nipple (al least it was brass) ~ even those Lox-On clamps are 160-psi-poly rated (IAPMO) and not higher. There is a point where it's compression or nothing.

Dirty Water
04-01-2007, 02:28 PM
True Jon, why don't you like pack joints w/internal stiffeners?

I have nothing against them, its just that a double clamped brass barb is cheaper, and easier to install, and I don't usually work with pressures over 60-80 psi.

Of course, the mention of a brass barb fitting should send those poly guys head spinning :)

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 02:31 PM
Poly works just fine with no problems installed correct on res. applications. Doing it for years and years here.

Dirty Water
04-01-2007, 02:31 PM
I was going to say that I could never envision clamped poly being any good for a home supply line, but then I remembered the 1 1/2" CTS 200-psi poly that was worm-gear clamped over a one-inch pipe nipple (al least it was brass) ~ even those Lox-On clamps are 160-psi-poly rated (IAPMO) and not higher. There is a point where it's compression or nothing.


http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=66534&d=1161305602

I know you've seen my typical line tap before.

Standard domestic supply line, 1 1/4" Poly in this case. Worm Drive clamps, static pressure of about 60 psi.

Its all I see out here.

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 02:39 PM
We tap inside the res. and bring 3/4 or 1" out, then adapt to the poly. Our supply lines are 4' down and nobody connects to that, now out west is a different story.

Mike Leary
04-01-2007, 02:46 PM
Brass rules! Nice tie-in Jon. Ed Berkey once told me, "as goes the tie-in,
goes the rest of the job."

Wet_Boots
04-01-2007, 02:54 PM
I wished I took a photo of the one-inch-nipple-in-a-one-and-a-half-inch pipe. It was so wrong on so many levels. And it was right next to the meter, too, so someone responsible had to have seen it. Of course, the static pressure was around 30 psi, giving a lot of room for a sub-par connection.

For 60 psi, I wouldn't expect a lot of problems with clamping 200 psi poly. At 130 psi, maybe a different picture. Since the highest grades of poly are getting beyond the ability for the fitting barbs to 'grab' them, it remains for waterworks compression fittings to be the absolute last word in reliability for house supply lines.

bobw
04-01-2007, 03:15 PM
We tap inside the res. and bring 3/4 or 1" out, then adapt to the poly. Our supply lines are 4' down and nobody connects to that, now out west is a different story.

Not really, the only difference to the story is that the water line enters the house from the floor of the basement, so it's 6-7 feet down. We T off the main after the meter (still in the basement), put a dual check valve on it and bring the pex line to the outside wall. A pex adapter into a T, mainline into the ground, hose bibb on the other side of the T.

Controller is usually installed in the basement, so we bring control wire out at the same location as the irrigation main.:canadaflag:

Duramaxsle1
04-01-2007, 03:19 PM
I thought a lot of pvc was used out there? Maybe that's Vancover.

bobw
04-01-2007, 03:25 PM
I thought a lot of pvc was used out there? Maybe that's Vancover.

British Columbia - crazy buggers are all PVC out there for residential (we do use PVC on commercial, Poly on res.). Picked up a blow out last fall, whole yard in PVC, valve boxes buried, outdoor mount controller.... people had a buddy that did irrigation in the Okanogan Valley come out and install it. I don't really want to see that system again because I'm sure that it will always be problematic... just not built at all for our harsh winters.

SteveG66
04-04-2007, 11:20 PM
Hello,

Was gone a few days to watch a practice round at the Masters. I didnt realize this had gone on as far as it did. I've gotten a real good amount of information from reading the posts.

I am very certain I am going with the contractor that I feel best with, which is the pricier one. I called to the other guy, he said he was waiting for me to call him back ( I didn't realize the customer was responsible for the follow-up call :) ) I asked for a written quote with details, he asked me what he quoted since he couldnt remember. I told him the price he gave me, his quote was one single line, price of install of irrigation was $XXX. That was it. No details, parts, amt of heads, or warranty information. If that is the type of service I get before the installation, i couldn't imagine what it would be like once he has my money.

I know a lot of you guys hate tire kickers, and many of you are proud of the fact that you can spot them from a mile away, I think you may be shooting yourselves in the foot. You never know when the tire kicker is gonna need new tires.

Good Luck and I wish everyone a productive and prosperous season,

Steve G

Mike Leary
04-04-2007, 11:44 PM
In my short time here, I've tried to give back what irrigation gave to me:
a life, a career, working weekends, dealing with idiots. Mostly, and most
importantly, i've installed systems that I never dreamed from my electro-
mechanical beginings. I like hanging with my peers too!

SteveG66
04-04-2007, 11:46 PM
Mike, Thanks for your reply. A few pages up you mentioned backfilling pvc and using 711 glue to reduce friction, IIRC.

Could you kindly tell me what you meant?

Thanks,
Steve

Mike Leary
04-05-2007, 06:45 PM
Mike, Thanks for your reply. A few pages up you mentioned backfilling pvc and using 711 glue to reduce friction, IIRC.

Could you kindly tell me what you meant?

Thanks,
Steve

711 is a medium body glue that we use on all mainlines w/primer.
Water-backfill with a hose beds the wire & main & w/slight topdressing,
you never know we were here, except for the bill.

PurpHaze
04-05-2007, 11:44 PM
Water-backfill with a hose beds the wire & main & w/slight topdressing, you never know we were here, except for the bill.

We "water jet" only critical installations such as sports fields. :p

Kinda amazing that trenched areas are the best seed prep beds. The grass always germinates best and grows the thickest in them even if the entire area has been tilled and prepped. :)

bicmudpuppy
04-05-2007, 11:49 PM
We "water jet" only critical installations such as sports fields. :p

Kinda amazing that trenched areas are the best seed prep beds. The grass always germinates best and grows the thickest in them even if the entire area has been tilled and prepped. :)

I have a new toy that would make you cringe, purp! it is called a verti-drain and you no freeze shallow pipe guys would be SCARED!!! It aerifies up to 12" deep!! I got the parts to put it back in service yesterday. I plan to start punching fairways Monday, taking 1" cores at a 10" depth!

PurpHaze
04-06-2007, 12:01 AM
I have a new toy that would make you cringe, purp! it is called a verti-drain and you no freeze shallow pipe guys would be SCARED!!! It aerifies up to 12" deep!! I got the parts to put it back in service yesterday. I plan to start punching fairways Monday, taking 1" cores at a 10" depth!

NEENER, NEENER... Not scared at all. My mains and laterals are deeper (and some of our sports fields are aerated with shatter tines that deep) than that with the exception of laterals around newly transferred relocatable buildings. However, if you were dumb enough (and I know you're smarter than that) to take that aerator down one of those building areas you'd best be worried about gas lines, communication lines, high voltage electrical lines and whether or not your cemetery plot has been paid in full. :laugh:

bicmudpuppy
04-06-2007, 12:03 AM
NEENER, NEENER... Not scared at all. My mains and laterals are deeper (and some of our sports fields are aerated with shatter tines that deep) than that with the exception of laterals around newly transferred relocatable buildings. However, if you were dumb enough (and I know you're smarter than that) to take that aerator down one of those building areas you'd best be worried about gas lines, communication lines, high voltage electrical lines and whether or not your cemetery plot has been paid in full. :laugh:

bury me face down in the middle of #1 tee and let all pay homeage before starting each round :)

PurpHaze
04-06-2007, 12:20 AM
bury me face down in the middle of #1 tee and let all pay homeage before starting each round :)

If they buried you face up they could prolly use your wiener for a tee. :nono:

Then they'd be paying real homage. "Mulligan please... the tee moved." :laugh:

Dirty Water
04-06-2007, 12:27 AM
Plant him ass up in the green and you'll have a new hole.

PurpHaze
04-06-2007, 12:40 AM
^^^^^^^ Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!