Solution to low balling?

[southside]

Perhaps the solution to under cutting/<br>lowballing is to form associations with other<br>local reputeable contractors in your area and<br>set up a minimum price for a given type of job.Over here in the land clearing/slashing<br>industry this has worked to a point where <br>hourly rates are the same for each size machine,eg. 50hp+5'slasher=$45.00 per hour,ect,ect. Just an idea anyway. Any opinions?

[plowking35]

My Idea is that if you do that you will be in jail. There is a little think called anti trust/colusion that prevents price fixing. Dont know why the oil co's do it. But you cannot form an association to fix prices, you will be shut down faster than the low baller takes an account away from you.<br>And again everyones situation is different and so is their pricing. A one man operation will have way differnt overhead and profit needs than a 25 man operation.<br>Suck it up do a good job and you will be fine. God you people need some cheese for all this whine<br>

[Charles]

One man or 20 man operation. The fact is. In our area the average price per l/2 acre 9 years ago was 25$. NOW 9 years later the average price is 35$. But there are alot of big and small companies out there cutting lawns for 25$ still. Something is definitly wrong with that. Lawns service parts and equipment inflation has gone up way higher than that in that time frame. Its like we are stuck in some kinda time warp. I keep waiting for Scotty to beam me up. NOw I am making more than that on some yards. But biding on new yard you are competing with people who are not looking to the future. Just trying to get as many yards as they can. They have no idea that they will be making less money in 10 years due to inflation. I mean a couple cannot go out and eat at a nice restuarant for less than 30$$ these days. I think one nintendo game cost as much as some yards we cut.<br>

[southside]

Plowking35, Don't shoot! It was just an idea. Get over it.

[Stonehenge]

Maybe my posts are too long for people to read. I'll try to make this brief. <p>MARKETING MARKETING MARKETING MARKETING MARKETING! The solution to people stealing accounts from under your nose for a bid $5 lower than yours is MARKETING!!<p>Because of the business you are in, you will, until the day you die, be in competition with every low-baller mentioned in these posts, as well as junior down the street using dad's mower. The only way you can defend your accounts against individual companies is MARKETING the differences between you and them. An association will only help you if it uses MARKETING to differentiate it's members from the non-members (standards of conduct, ethics, etc).<p>Marketing! Otherwise, you all look the same to me.

[Nilsson Associates]

Southside ... <br>you have to ask yourself if it's any accident that Lawyers all charge about the same amount per hour, as do Plumbers, Electricians, Auto Mechanics, Doctors, Appliance Repairmen, Tutors, Baby Sitters, Day Care Providers, Private Duty RNs, Computer Geeks, and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on da da da da. I'm surprised they're not all in jail.<p>Phil Nilsson

[Stonehenge]

Phil - <p>C'mon.<p>Market forces drive those prices, not collusion. Those prices (of the professions you list) vary as much as they do in lawn maintenance.

[plowking35]

Get over it yourself. You mow freaking lawns, how much do you want to charge to mow a lawn. And people will only pay so much to have it done. Now before you get all upset, I used to mow for a living also. The only challange was to mow as many lawns in a day as possible to make more money. We did nice work, and still mow one day a week. In fact I got a call to bid a property last week, and when I asked why they were shopping, the answer was to cut costs. I politly declined to bid, since I dont try to undercut another contractor. However if I did price it, and for some reason or another I was cheaper, then good for me.<br>The lawn care cutting market will only accept prices to a point, after that they will either do it themselves or hire someone else. There will always be someone to do it cheaper, so get used to it, and figure a way to survive in spite of it.<br>the is only one reason that mowers today are better than 10 yrs ago. To go faster to make more money for you. Now that you have faster mowers, you can cut more lawns in a day to make more money. Only thing is somewhere someone is forgetting that mower cost 2x the amount of the old one, or they never owned a commercial mower before and they price a job to low thinking that the faster mower will make up for it. SO WHAT. Let him be.<br>He will either make it or he wont, deal with it.<br>Now a doctor and lawyer, even a mechanic has a lot more schooling than a lawn cutter, lets face it its not rocket science. God even forest gump did a nice job mowing. The market will only bear a certain price for what you do. If that bothers you get out.<br>

[Nilsson Associates]

I thought I was talking to southside, now all you guys want to get into the act!

[Evan528]

you say its so easy to mow lawns and for me it always came naturally but i cant tell you how many workers i have had that couldnt mow or wed wack for sh**. its easy for some but they have to pay money if they want it done right.

[Nilsson Associates]

southside ... send me your email address so I can talk to you privately about this.<p>Plus I can't believe that some people want to &quot;put down&quot; their own industry ... just because it's physical work doesn't mean it should pay low ... and it's not just mowing, contractors are a lot more than that, wear lots of hats ... requires lots of other talents.<p>Phil Nilsson<p><p>

[thelawnguy]

Hey Plowking tell us all how you deal with under the table operators when you bid a roof and the customer blows you off cuz the other guy will do it for half price, he rents an apt and has his buddies work on the side so he doesnt care about insurance, workers comp etc.<p>I have friends in the contracting biz and I can sympathize with all you guys when it comes to low scrub pricing.<p>Bill

[Nilsson Associates]

And to make matters worse ... contracting in general is &quot;high risk&quot; ... 70% failure rate over the first three years ... doesn't speak well, so whats wrong with this picture? I have to believe that at least some if it is attributable to lowball pricing ... because profitable companies given fair &quot;wages&quot; have a better chance at survival. You have to take the &quot;cut&quot; out of &quot;cut throat&quot;.<p>Phil Nilsson

[Charles]

Well any monkey can hammer a roof on. But most roofs start off at 2000$$ on an 1800sq foot home in my area.

[plowking35]

I have done both, and believe me it is much easier to train a person to mow then it is to roof. You have valleys and flashing, chimneys, pitch run off, hip vents, ridge vents, ice and water membrane, felt paper, roof tins, coil nails,torch down, peal and seal, and the list goes on and on.<br>With mowing you have a mower and a trimmer. A truck and maybe a trailer. The hard thing is finding someone you can send out with a 50,000 worth of equip and having it back in one piece.<br>I am not putting down grounds maintenance people. i have to much respect for all of you to do that, but the bottom line is that we mow lawns, and the market will only bear to pay so much for that service. Say what you will but that is the bottom line. Now hardscaping is an enitrely diferent animal. That takes talent skill and alot of experience. <br>Training someone with a string trimmer should never take more than a day and if it does get rid of them because they should have any piece of power equip in their hands.<br>I also have found out by speaking with alot of contractors that unless you are on the mowing crew it probably wont make you much money. the reasons are many but in a nut shell the crew, including the lead man just doesnt care as much as you do about making money. he is payed by the hour so productivity and hourly pay makes for an oxymoron.<br>I have been there, and for me it didnt work, I went back to home improvement where the margins are much better. <br>A person just seems to think that spending $$ on the house warrants more outlay than the guys mowing the lawn.<br>The last time I lost a roof bid it was to the largest roofing contractor in the area. I still dont know why I lost it, it was only 300 different than mine, but I had plenty of work anyway, and the homeowner was probably a pain in the a**. I do 95% by referral and most of the time they dont even bid the job out. I am fair and do good work, and always have 60-90 days of work ahead of me. Drought, wet, sunny, rainy my work is steady. I know alot of guys were hurt real bad with the drought last year. Still gotta pay for those trucks and mower even when they are sitting in the shop because of no rain.<br>I am not trying to get anyone mad, but think about what you are doing, and see if you would pay big$$$$ for having your lawn cut. Probably not, we all price shop, and we all go to the big retailers. Why because money is hard to come by, and if wally world is selling an item 5$ cheaper than mom and pop we will buy it at wally world.<br>And if all of you think so highly of our industry then go out and hire all college grads, pay them all 50K a year plus bennies. And then you can honestly say that our industries prices are to low. then you will have a reason to expect people to pay 250$ to have a 1/2 acre mowed. <br>But I doubt you will, instead we all are looking for the hardworking person that is responsible and dilligent. Only it will take him one season to figure out that he can make more in one day mowing for himself than you pay him all week. then booooom another person that has a truck and a mower. there is no easy answer, but the bottom line is that we mow lawns and that will never garner the same pay as some other professions. You can hate me,lie to yourself, rationalize all you want, but you mow lawns.<br>I am not ashamed of it, and alot of guys have left dead end jobs and made a better life for themselves because of it, but to think you will get rich, have the 100 man crew, all new trucks and equip from lawn mowing, you are fooling yourself. Look at all the big co's what makes them money, hardscaping not maint. that is why the big apts places, or park and recs, or cemeterys all pay 8$ an hour. I bet that is what you pay most of your own help on the mowing crews, and yet you want your customer to pay big money for mowing their lawn. It will never happen. There are certain things in life that are only worth so much. ANd cutting lawns is one of them.<br> <br>

[Charles]

I just wish anyone could mow lawns lol I have been through many employees who couldn't mow there way out of a paper bag. They killed small trees with their weedeater. Cut the wrong driveway. Slung rock through windows. Ran the mower over stumps. Weedeated the cat that was in a bush.<br>Couldnt set the heights right on the mower for the right grass. Lost wheels on the deck and then ran over them. Insulted my customers. WRecked my truck and my trailor. Ran over flowers and on and on and on...

[Lazer]

Let me know where I can get an $8/hr. lawn mower.<p>Our lowest lawn mower started this season at $10.25<p>Anyway, in most any business productivity is the key. That doesn't mean doing a slovenly job, that means doing a nice work fast.

[Retro67]

Lazer-<p>Does he produce? If so, he is worth it. If I had the right contracts and the right workers, I could pay a little more than that, even. &lt;p&gt;I like that story about the guy who splits after-cost profit with his employees. He gets good production out of them because they are motivated since they can impact their income by becoming efficient.&lt;p&gt;To boot, they are located in Tennessee in the middle of nowhere, so to speak. They drive 150 miles each way and were doing over $400,000 sales annually. &lt;p&gt;If I ever need employees, I may try something like that. I would have to be in touch with what my costs are, because if costs are left out, employees are overpaid and me underpaid.&lt;p&gt;John<br>

[plowking35]

Ok even at 10 per hour that still is only 20k if he works all year, he will probably only work enought to make 15-18 all season.If he is a motivated person he wont stay. I know I woudlnt. But if you pay him what you needed to to keep him, you will lose your shirt. That all goes back to you can only charge so much to cut lawns.<br>As for the type of guys who ruin equipment, well they shouldnt have been using it to begin with. i had those guys to, and after a day or so they were asked not to return. One is in fact a very good friend still to this day. He is my computer connection, 23 and owns his own store. Makes more than most 23 yr olds andhas the same problem we do. How to compete with the cheap computer systems. Every market and business has this problem. <p>----------<br> Professional Ice and Snow Management <br>Products:Services:Equipment www.sima.org

[Charles]

Well thanks for slummin today with us wretched lowlifes Plowking. NOT. :) Bring some bread crumbs wid ya next time.

[plowking35]

You are welcome Chucky boy. Hop on the bus cause I will take you to school.Glad to be of service, and will dutifully dispence of my brand of wisdom when needed to keep us all grounded. Dont let your head get to big, because after all, all we do is cut lawns.

[mowerparts]

Join or form an association. Then you have to get some kind of a certification program passed by city hall. Members would have to attend at least 4 meetings per year to get re-certified to be able to renew their business. This is where you’re local Ag. Center becomes involved. <br>This is what we are doing in Jax. Fl. only because the D.O.T and the School board are pushing for some type of standardization because of all the low bids that they receive. Which then they have re-bid the job out.<br><p>----------<br>http://mowerparts.hypermart.net<br>

[CA Enterprises]

Well, I can certainly see that some of you have totally ignored the administrator and are still personally attacking each other. <p>For God's Sake Please Stop!!! Southside was trying to be helpful with a topic that has been tossed around some. Why would you want to Bash him for effort?! Over half of this post wasn't even about the original post was bickering.<p>Adam :)

[Charles]

CA, I dont see any bashing here. Just good natured ribbing. But we are all just human beings and this is the real world. A lot of post get off track because post trigger new ideas and thoughts that really dont merit a new post. But as for the original post. I think we all agree that there is no real solution to this problem. Too many people in this business to even try to influence.