Does anyone run an organic lawn service?

[jmartmel]

Just want to know if anyone runs an organic lawn service and 100% pesticide free program. Seeing how It's going here in Toronto with laws and such, maybe everyone will have to be sooner or later. If you are how is it working out?

[Dochere]

We are located in northern Illinois and hence, do not and probably will not ever have to worry about not being able to use chemicals. We do however offer a totally organic program for our customers. About thirty percent of our customers are on this program, and to be honest, I could care less one way or another. The applications and time do not differ that much. The main difference is cost, as using certain organic products can be 3-4 times as expensive as some of the chemical products. (You can be sure though that the major players in the chemical market in Toronto will find ways of making the organic products as affordable and comparable to there predecessors). We do not push these products, rather, the customers that we do their property in this manner, have requested it. They are all in wealthy areas. I do my personal property in this manner, but every once in a while use a chemical weed control. I find that organic ferts and such are great but other organic products tend to be un effective. I personally aerated my property a few times, over seeded with a dominate grass, and fert about 3 times a year, 1 weed app in the spring and I have to admit, it's not bad. Good Luck!

[kermit]

We've been organic for many years. The Organic Landscape Alliance is a group of organic companies amking great bucks offering an alternative to chemicals.

That being said, we'll never have a ban on chemicals in Ontario. The idea that Toronto or Ottawa will follow Hudson's lead is a myth. The laws here in Ontario do not allow municipalities to mess in provincial matters, which is where pesticide use is regulated . The post to the contrary is FALSE and is scare mongering.

By the way, having lived in Hudson for twenty odd years, I know the people who fought for the ban on chemicals. One of them is now on Toronto council, Jack Layton, whose dad was a federal member of parliment under (boo) Brian Mulroney. These people are better educated and armed with info than the chemical sprayers so they had better watch out. Hudson is also known for it's fabulous gardens and golf course so it is possible to have these without the use of pesticides.


educate yourself and your customers as to the possible problems with chemicals and you just might find a profitable niche market for yourself!

[jmartmel]

Thanks, dochere, kermit, it sounds like something worth getting into. I'm glad to see it's working well for you all. I think even if bans never come, It's still the best route to go.

[hustlers]

i am in the process of starting a total organic
lawn service and also want to be a dealer
of organic products to do yourselfers.
I do not believe in chemicals for lawns , foods, etc.
I have always used chems, but I decided
not even to offer because I think our world
would be better and have less cancer w/o
it , I fine the organics do a better job for
droughts because they help soil
to retain water. let me know how yours
goes and I hope you do for the benefit
our future generations

[MATTHEW]

Here in OHIO, no one seems to care.No one seems to be afraid of "chemicals" I think it is because they are educated, in part. They use chemicals much more potent than mine everyday. I would do it if it was requested. When I worked at TG, we sold about .03% of the customer base (who wanted it) Organic. The funny thing was, we sprayed 3-way weed control right after the organic fert! :angel:

[jmartmel]

You may be right but there is a pretty big shift going on for anything organic, from food to lawn care and I think it is only going to get bigger year after year. Especially since you can get a great looking lawn through organics. It just takes a little longer.

[MATTHEW]

I agree that a landscape environment will be in best health when organic products are used as natural micronutrients aid in assimilation. But my question was about the weed control. Do you have an organic weed control that will kill clover,dandies, oxalis,voilets and ground ivy? I have heard of one brew. One gallon of white vinegar-2 cups of salt-and 2 tablespoons of dishwashing liquid. But you don't expect to blanket a lawn with that, do you?

[Evan528]

Mathew... you took the words right out of my mouth! organic programs are all fine and dandy untill the customer wanders why hes got dadylions and clover all over his lawn!

[kermit]

On the organic front there was a big campaign this spring to overseed lawns with 'white dutch' clover. It was very successful.

[LoneStarLawn]

There are weed control organic products out there. Using the right applications you will not have customers seeing weeds. Take a lawn off steriods though could be devistating.

Using low amounts of chemical applications and high organic products will produce excellent results.

This month's <b>Landscape Management Magazine</b> talks about the growth of organic programs. Jump on now or you may be left out.

[dan deutekom]

SURE
seeding your lawn with clover is very successful
If you want a clover lawn but it sure looks like crap to me!

[OrganicLawnGuy]

I've read at several sources now that Toronto is close to banning the use of 'cosmetic' pesticides (according to Grounds Maintence), so I don't think it's scare mongering Kermit (and why would anyone be scared of that? Except maybe Chemlawn). What a lot of companies may do is spend some money on marketing their new change and yet still resort to their chemical ways because Toronto is almost broke and really can't afford to test lawns. No doubt it will enable them to charge more for 'organic pesticides', some of which are more carcinogenic than their chemical cousins. Also, I've read a lot of posts where the complaint is about weeds such as dandelions. One thing that a lot of people don't seem to consider is that dandelions prefer a higher PH than many cool season grasses. So a regular PH test, and neutralizing the property can make it much easier to deal with weeds. One source I've checked with maintained that correcting the PH solved ALL of his weed problems (though I don't think it's always that easy). For my part, I advertise to my clients that I'll EAT every dandelion that appears on their lawn (as long as they've never used a pesticide on their property). The leaves are great in salads and I make a mean dandelion wine. Of course I've rarely seen dandelions on my properties, but there's plenty on other lawns (I ask if I can have them and this begins a new relationship that sometimes leads to new clients).

[HBFOXJr]

When it comes to fertilizer, all the organic stuff has to be converted to the same inorganic compounds that are in the bags of "chemical fertilizers" before they can be used by plants.

Organics therefore feed slower and may make a better looking lawn than quick release products. However there are plenty of good sources of slow release inorganics available that are a lot less expensive than organics and they make a lawn look good.

We spray broadleaf weeds on an as needed basis and only broadcast spray and entire site when required to clean it up. We do use pre-emergent crabgrass control on all areas. Also use one application of surface feeding insect control which slows down some relevant lawn pests and other things like ticks which are a great concern in our area. We have lots of Lyme disease.

For those that don't know or understand Lyme's, it is a cousin to syphilis but IS NOT sexually transmitted. Only comes from infected ticks.

Our disease control and grub control are on an as diagnosed basis, treated at extra cost IF the problem truly warrants.

My premise is proper turf culture such as fertility, watering, mowing and seed selection.

We're not afraid of chemicals but feel we use them wisely as intended to produce quality turf and not directly as a revfenue source.

[dan deutekom]

HBFOXJr
"We're not afraid of chemicals but feel we use them wisely as intended to produce quality turf"

You just described Integrated Pest Management"

This is the way to do things. It is reasonable, enviromentally responsible and the best way to provide the client with what they expect.

Unfortunately the "organic, natural, let the weeds grow, there is no place for ornamental horticulture, save the world crowd " will still say it ain't right

Sometimes it seems that all these enviromentalists do not see any value in ornamental horticulture.:angry:

[HBFOXJr]

Yes I speak IPM. I don't seem to have a hard time rationalizing the need or lack thereof for controls and spending money to my customers.

I wish, I wish, that I could talk some sense into people about irrigation engineering, installation and use. Yes good one s cost more to buy but are cheaper to own and use. Somehow I can't get them past the purchase outlay even though I put numbers on paper with supporting info, cajole, listen, answer questions etc.

Any suggestions how to sell good irrigation systems to people who want to regard them as a commodity where all are equal and to be purshased at the lowest price?

[OrganicLawnGuy]

That's a real good point because watering is one of the backbones of organic lawn care. For example if you are having a problem with bentgrass taking over a lawn of bluegrass you can alter the watering habits. Bentgrass needs watering more frequently so by only watering deeply every 7 or 8 days you will starve out the bentgrass which needs it every four or five. Anyway, as far as the cost outlay goes what I've noticed after 15 years in the business is that most people have a budgeted amount that they will spend on their lawns-usually determined by their income and the price of their house but you must also factor in their feelings about their lawns, the number of children, etc. Pesticides, etc., usually fall well within this range so its easy to sell people on that but watering is one of those things people don't really think about and if they do they think rain or the occasional sprinkler will do the trick. The real key is to know and educate your customers. This is why I'm happy doing organic because I can tell people's relationship to their lawn immediately (I also have a questionairre). It isn't the 'I don't care what you do just make it green' people who will opt for organic. I know what my customers do, what they make (roughly), their general spending habits, and whenever I notice construction workers or a delivery vehicle then I know somebody's just gotten a bonus. Anyway, enough preachy talk, here's just a couple of suggestions that hopefully will help you out.
1. Sell in advance. Way in advance if possible. If you have a supplier try to find the best time to get a deal on the equipment, let your customers know that you are doing this-though don't tell them you are buying it if they aren't committed. Make sure they know what they are saving on the item-people love to save money and tell their friends what a great deal they got. My customers seem to trust me implicitly which makes it easier, if you've saved them money on something else then let them know that too. A 'good customer' discount if possible helps or a discount if they've recommended you to a potential new customer.
2. Work on the financing. Try to find a supplier who will finance over a year. People don't like shelling out big bucks but they don't mind little amounts (how else could car leasing have started?:) And remember, people are lazy, they do whatever seems easiest, you have to make sure this will be easiest by doing all the work for them.
3. Make sure they know how much they can save or how much better their lawn will look. The best time to sell an irrigation system is during drought years when lawns are starting to look bad but before lack of rain becomes a news item (then they might be tempted to just let it go dormant for the good of the community). Software will help with showing how much better it will look. Also, if you have a website or they are at all interested in their lawns have some good links or third party info showing how much water is wasted by above ground watering. Often when you are talking they may just have the feeling that you are just selling them something. I think people have a built in scepticism when it comes to salespeople, so if you can point them at research from an educational institute that tells them what you are telling them they will be that much more comfortable with it.
4. All my customers have the price of watering built in. I know everyone can't do that but because I only take customers in two different subdivisions I am able to stop by with my hoses and set it up in the morning while doing tasks at another home. I always make sure they know how much they would save with their own timed irrigation system. During the (sometimes) hot dry summer months here it is imperative that watering be controlled so I don't let them opt out of that. Some have said 'oh we can water it if its needs it'. I say that's fine but I still factor it into the price because since I'm always in the area I can tell if they are doing it or not. I have no trouble cancelling contracts if I can't control the water flow.

That's enough of that so you can stop reading there. I just want to add since this is really the only organic thread that one of the reasons I started working for myself was that every company I worked for said they were into IPM and most couldn't even tell me what diatomaceous earth was. They had no idea of any organic ways of doing things, only the easiest chemical way. They hadn't even TRIED an organic approach. The ones that also did maintenance had people on a schedule for once a week no matter what type of grass it was or what season. They used walkers or exmarks even on smaller residential lawns and then sold them on aeration because their soil was compacted (well, duh!) As far as the spraying goes, even if the supervisor was into IPM he wasn't the one actually at the sites-that was some kid that just took an open book test to be certified as an apprentice. I believe in making many chemicals illegal simply because there are proven ways to do everything organically (although it takes some research) and because the vast majority of the spraying is not done by the one guy who owns the company and is responsible but by the companies that hire five kids to do it for them. We environmentalist's don't worry about you guys who are using just a bit to make the site safe and aesthically appealing because if you've minimized their use then you've already admitted to the problem and you would adapt (plus a municipality would be giving you an acceptable reason for raising your prices). Just a little bit of research shows how nasty these things are by themselves, compounded by the number of lawns and you've got a big problem. Ontario is the second most polluted region in North America, right behind Texas, so we really no longer have the option of doing things in moderation. As a final note, remember that three separate studies have found an incidence of brain cancer in applicators to be three times the norm. Whether you believe it or not, environmentalist's are your friends just practising tough love.

[dylan]

Lots of people from Ontario here. I've been organic for 2 years now.

[tremor]

Sorry guys, but I gotta let off some steam.

You guys in Canada think you've got it bad? The biggest chunk of my sales revenue comes from selling pesticides to Tree & Lawn Co.'s in Westchester County New York. Home to the Queen of Liberal, Miss Hillary.(we haven't seen Bill all summer). There have been attemps to ban pesticides in certain villages. So far, all have been defeated. The county executive Spano, has even forced the county golf courses to practice IPM for Hyperodes Weevil. I just love the way bare dirt putts, don't you.

These are the same neighborhoods that don't allow the use of a gasoline powered leaf blower in the summer time. The WhitePlains woman who convinced her town to start this fiasco 5 years ago was actually sited last summer by the town. Her neighbor turned her in to the Blight Police. Her place looks like a jungle. A 100% Natural Organic fire hazard. Boy, it's a good thing we wrote some new laws to protect us huh?

These guys have adopted a "Neighbor Notification Law". All abutting property owners must be notified, in writing, 48 hours before you apply anything liquid. Now, where did I leave that arsenic dust?...
Most applicators, after they're turned in for non compliance, just lie & tell the county pesticide cop that they applied an exempt material. The poor guy wouldn't know how to prove your lying, so he hasn't even tried, yet. The former Ciba/Novartis did a GREAT job schmoozing the NY politicians. They just about OWN the list with something like 5 real pesticides. There are only 7 all together. Unless you count lemon-oil, garlic, vampire urine, & voodoo dolls. Well, there goes the IPM program.

Part of me really wishes that the liberals would succeed, just once, in banning pesticides completely from one town. I'd love to see the looks on the faces of the hug-a-tree crowd as New York City sewer rats move into their $3.5 Million raised ranches in a place like Scarsdale. I can practically hear them screaming now over the din of a chainsaw taking out the last Elm Trees downtown. And won't it be great when the last Hemlock has shriveled to Grey? The realtors will have a field day as the liberals run further away form the Big Wormy Apple. At least I won't have to ask my lunch appointment to pass the salt. I'll just wait for a cockroach to run it over.

The real issue here is that these people live their happy little insulary lives in a fantasy land. They come down with Breast Cancer and they immediately blame the environment. It can't be hereditary, if it were, then they passed defective genes onto their children. NO, NO, NO, it can't be. Check the on-line death records. My wifes big into geneaology, so I have checked a few of the higher profile voices. Interesting.

The Yentas on Long Island are beside themselves that the ground water just PASSED a thorough & scientific screen for pesticides. It had to be a GW Bush led conspiracy. Now what will they talk about over their latte. I to am in shock. The LI sandbar was previously one big potatoe farm, just oozing with Dieldrin, Temic, Aldicarb. Oh well, the water still tastes bad. And despite all their noise, the LI Yentas don't even have the nations highest breast cancer rates. They lied. Rockland County, NY beat them breasts, er, hands down.

There are still a few New York families that favor the responsible use of pesticides. Especially the one 6 blocks north of my old LESCO Service Center in East White Plains. Those little kids mother was the first confirmed death from West Nile Virus. I was sprayed twice by the GPS guided helicopters spraying malathion in the weeks that followed. But none of the greiving widowers neighbors were complaining about it. Believe me. I was telephone interviewed 3 times on WABC radio (home of Rush Limbaugh) as the ONLY pro industry face who could find my politically incorrect voice. I bet a liberal radio talkshow co-host a steak dinner that by the end of the summer at least 3 more would die from West Nile Virus & that there would be ZERO confirmed pesticide related illnesses. There were 7 deaths that summer. I still haven't gotten that steak!

Sometimes I think it's getting better. Especially after the liberals accused RoundUp of causing testicular cancer in two of the hundred or so farmers who tested RoundUp back in the "old days". The 2 guys probably got sack cancer from their tractor seats but their military medical files are sealed so we may never know. Too bad that Monsanto didn't get FDA approval for Glyphosate sooner. It's now been approved as a CANCER THERAPY. That's the end of that propaganda source huh?

Please don't get me wrong. I'm all for the responsible reduction of pesticides, when appropriate. And most organic fert's do antagonize disease pathogens to the point of at least some supression. I used Sustane for the last 2 summers here at the house for that reason. But some synthetic ferts (soon to be released) do a BETTER job of supressing disease. And this one is LESS likely to leach or volatalize than any organic made.

The quality of life in the USA has been greatly improved by the advancements in Medicine & Agriculture chemicals. If you really think all these "chemicals" are so bad for us, then try to explain to me why our average life expectancy has increased on a parallel with the use of modern pesticides and pharmaceuticals. By the way, the incidents of most new cancers is on the decline.

But please let's not blame poor turf management practices on sysnthetics. That's taking the easy way out just like my yenta freinds on Long Island.
All soils that aren't properly cared for die. That means organic matter is to be added as needed. It doesn't mean you have to swear off commercial fertilizers and herbicides. It's just turf science, not Rocket science. Didn't we all learn this stuff in school? Hmm... maybe not.

Better days to come! Steve sls247@lesco.com

[OrganicLawnGuy]

The reason life expectancy has increased is due primarily to improved food transportation and storage. During the last century (the time in which most comparisons are based because it had relatively consistent records) mortality was considerably decreased because of unsafe working conditions, unsafe shipping, starvation, scurvy and tuberculosis (the white plague). Scurvy was then recognized as a deficiency of vitamin C and TB was controlled by penicillin (grown on molds, not synthetically til recently). In the past, poor nutrition due to unsanitary food storage resulted in most deaths because of viral infections (no refrigeration).
The 20th century saw industrial north america copying the practices used in industrial europe. Of course much of this century saw two world wars as well as several depressions. Of course any anthropologist will tell you the biggest increase in longevity is in third world countries when proper nutrition and clean drinking water is available-mortality has been seen to drop by up to 1000%.
As far as other points you make go, many cancers are on the decrease-many others, like children's leukemia, are on the increase. Pesticides and herbicides are not only linked to cancers but to many other diseases-many of which are on the increase. Most telling I think is the fact that in cases of cancer in children one of the first questions a parent is asked is whether pesticides are used in the neighborhood. Many health practitioners and doctors are issuing warnings which reinforce the suspicions many people have had. Part of the reason more is not known about these effects is that government, as a regulatory body, is complicit in its use, and would be culpable if it is found that these chemicals are harmful-so it is difficult to finance studies.
I think it's kind of silly to equate using chemicals to try to make grass prettier and use of it for a health scare like West Nile Virus, even though you are far more likely to die by lightning, the flu, or a traffic accident than contract and die from WNV. As far as your not finding any pesticide related illnesses though, I doubt you did much searching to discover this.
The claim that these synthetics have contributed so much to our standard of living is questionable, and equating them in the same sentence with pharmaceuticals is puzzling. I do agree with your conclusion though, that we shouldn't just blame poor landscaping on synthetic chemicals, in fact I would reverse it and blame synthetic chemicals on poor horticultural practices.

[earthcare]

<p>I've operated a non-toxic lawncare service since 1995 in northern Indiana and have found that for the vast majority of cases, materials that pose virtually no risk to the customer, his kids or his pets are available, effective and affordable.

<p>Insecticidal soaps & oils are extremely effective but require operators to do more than show up and hose down the landscape. Weeds in lawns can be an insurmountable problem if the turf is thin and the customer insists on a 2" mowing height. But then again, that same lawn would still have constant weed problems even with the use of standard herbicides.

<p>My approach of providing optimum growing conditions for the desired plant and treating pests with materials that pose minimal risk to the customer and his family isn't for everyone. Some people won't tolerate anything but the lowest price. I've found they aren't on my customer list very long regardless at which point I price them.

[tremor]

Dear Sir,

The reason life expectancy has increased is due PARTLY to improved PRODUCTION, transportation, & storage of food. At the risk of sounding like I actual enjoy eating pesticides, I must share a secret with you. The post WW2 population explosion (myself included) would have starved to death years ago were it not for sustainable high yeild agriculture. (In other words, I'd rather eat pesticides than die and so would you if you knew more about what you're saying.) Agriculture relies on pesticide treatments for production, prior to & often during transportation, & just prior to storage in the case of virtually all grains. While I certainly agree that refrigeration is important, it is primarily a benefit to beef & other meats. Vegetable and grain crops are not refrigerated at the grower/wholesale level. Vegetables are shipped quick & cooled very near and in market. Grains are never refrigerated. Although I'll admit that if it were economically feasible to refrigerate grains, then pre-storage insecticide treatments would probably not be needed. The improvements in Citrus production in the Southern United States has absolutely improved the health of all North Americans & modern freight/commerce is a critical part of it I agree. Indeed part of the standard of living improvements in South America, are the direct result of North Americas demand for year round Citrus availablity and the financial rewards that come from it.

I'm sure that some third world nations have seen improvements in their mortality. (But 1000%? Show me that one in writing.) But only after they have been taught by westerners how to engage in proper modern agriculture practices. Neither Europe nor Asia have contributed much in the lines of significant ag-chem advances (although watch Japan) when compared to the USA. Seems as though they've learned a few things about manufacturing & high-tech from us while they were at it too.

I'm not sure about Canada, but in the US we have more homes hooked up to clean, potable drinking water than & other nation on earth. I certainly won't debate the advantages. I even irrigate my occasionally pesticide treated lawn with potable water. Hey, I pay the bill so...

At this point I will admit that one currently registered fungicide is capable of breaking down into a suspected carcinogen. Mancozeb (one of several EBDC pesticides) can, usually when heated, break down into ethylenethiourea, a probable carcinogen. The FDA has limited its uses for this reason and I'm just as pleased as you. If you have data which proves that a currently used turf & ornamental pesticide is a known carcinogen, please respond by linking us with the data in this forum. I will provide references to my claims.
www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/ANS00113.html

It is still worth noting however, that the quality of life as we know it today is partly made possible by the continuous production of high quality produce & vegetables. The proper & discriminate use of pesticides in their production is a fact whether you like it or not. At least here in the US, consumers have a choice. If someone wants to purchase Organic Produce, they are free to do so. If a consumer wants conventionally produced vegetables, they are free to do that to. (Interestingly, the liklihood of a non-meat food poisoning incident increases dramatically when organic produce is compared to convential produce) Please see :
www.monsanto.co.uk/news/99/july99/300799_edinburgh.html
Freedom to choose is what the United States is all about. Please see the following:
http://i2i.org/SuptDocs/Enviro/enpestic.htm
Here in the US, ALL cancers are on the decline. Thank God. If you know of one that isn't. Name it. Never in my entire career have I been made aware of the parent of a child recently diagnosed with cancer, being asked by the pediatrician if pesticides are used in their neighborhood. Never. I would then ask you to substantiate your claim in this forum. Please quote or link a credible source for this data. From this point forward, as I present my veiwpoint, I will try to do the same for your benefit. Please review the National Cancer Institute annual report which covers the study period 1992-1998.
http://newscenter.cancer.gov/pressreleases/reportnation.html
Or www.nci.nih.gov
Childrens leukemia cases are being detected earlier than at any time in history. This is because treatment beginning at or around age 4, results in a very high success rate. Delays in treatment can be disasterous. Therefore more early detection is taking place. I cannot confirm your allegation that more cases are occurring. If this is the case, then please document your claim in writing from a credible source. Not a liberal Special Interest Group. According to the New England Journal of Medicine, the only environmental issues being considered are the mothers prenatal exposures to various forms of radiation. There may be a link here to childhood leukemia. I hope the cause is found myself, as I grew up with a victim who is no longer with us. I do not believe that pesticides are being considered as a credible potential cause. Prove me wrong.

You allege that government as a regulatory body, should be held accountable for any wrongs done anyone by anything they regulate. Not on my vote they aren't. While I cannot speak for anyone other than myself ( and my party), a government that is by the people & for the people, is not responsible for the acts of CORPORATIONS even if the corporations products are regulated by the government. It is a corporations responsibility to insure the safety of its products. It's insurers then financially underwrite what is believed to be the safety of the consumer. The consumer is and should be able to decide for themselves what they feel is in their best interest. Government should keep itself out of these decisions. Particularly when those individuals who claim harm is being done cannot even prove it. As you pointed out, one of the most dangerous things we do is drive an automoblie or truck. Would you then have your precious gonernment take away your choice to drive because you might hurt yourself? Or would you embrace the new law & profit from it by selling horses?

Listen up now, this is where the Star Spangled Banner starts playing.
Since I live in a free society, I will decide for myself if I want my lawn to be pretty by treating it. If someone dosen't like it, they are invited to stay off of it. If I don't want mosquitoes in my yard biting my friends & family, it is my decision to fog it to eliminate said mosquitoes, as long as I don't contaminate anyone else's property in the course of doing so. If I do contaminate someone else's property, I then must assume responsibility for my actions. If the product I used is deemed defective and I used it in accordance with law, then the manufacturer is responsible. Why should Congress pay anyone? I don't want congress to have one more dollar than they need to get by.

With respect to West Nyle Virus, I did indeed check with the three hospitals that I deal with, though there are many, many more in metro NY.
Columbia Presbyterian Hosp, St. Agnes Host, & St. Vincents Hosp.'s are all customers of mine either by means of in house staff or long term contractual relations. I have the contacts at all three and checked them. I doubt I ever needed to. If you know anything about Liberal New York Media people, you'd know that they were snooping around almost constantly and the world never would have heard the end of it had a pesticide poisoning taken place.

I often equate pharmaceuticals with pesticides. Both were born around the same time and both came of age as a direct result of the US (& other) military efforts during WorldWar2. Both products are designed to kill something to beneifit another. Both are the result of chemists & micro biologists usually working together. And both will benefit from the still infintile field of Genetic Engineering. Indeed many pharmaceutical companies also manufacture pesticides. Bayer, Monsanto, Aventis. Not to fuel the paranoid conspiracy theorists, but rather because the fields are nearly identical in research & manufacturing requirements. Labling laws, government approvals, insurance requirements, marketing needs, & distribution are all too similar to overlook.

Amazingly we do agree that a bad landscape is a good bet that some sort of corrective action will be required. Weather organic, bio-rational, or chemical, some form of help will be adminstered (hopefully by an educated, liscenced, & insured professional) to prevent the premature death of plant material.

Please note that I respectfully request you provide links to major U.S. universities, Government agencies, or other VALID concerns to substantiate claims made in the prior post. If no link can be provided. A valid phone number or address will suffice. Or fax data to below.

Thanks in advance,
Steve sls247@lesco.com
Fax 203-378-7087

[OrganicLawnGuy]

I just wanted to quickly commend you for a very well thought out letter. Too often environmentalists and industrialists just yell at each other. Unfortunately it pretty much ends our discussion if you are restricting studies to ONLY the New England Journal of Medicine! Also, it should here be stated that I'm in Canada and not the United States, so I know nothing about happenings in New York. Before heading off to work I just wanted to reply to some of the biggie's of your letter.
When I mentioned government I did not state what you reiterated in your letter, and keep in mind our government is far different than yours. Here in Canada the government is not only in charge of testing applicant's pesticide products, they have also heavily invested in the research of most companies. Even government labs are now mainly doing work in partnership with private corporations. I think you'd agree that somebody with a financial interest in a product doesn't make for the most objective party in its testing.
The big argument here is one that we cannot really resolve because it is based on an ideological difference. You claim that South America's current 'prosperity' is based primarily on our need for citrus and other fruits (bananas, plantains, etc.). Here we differ since I do not see South America as particularly 'prosperous'. I think five centuries of colonialism is the worst thing that could have happened to them, and most SA countries are barely teetering on their 'developing country' status. However, this is a difference in interpretation. However, using the case of bananas as an example, a quite healthy item I'm sure you'd agree. Bananas are shipped prior to maturity and then treated chemically by a chemical which is available in apples. If you wanted to accomplish the same thing organically you can simply put bananas with apples and they will ripen. My runabout point here is simply that every chemical is not the same, and so blanket statements about ALL chemicals somehow being bad is not often used. You may use pesticides and pharmaceuticals in the same sense since they each provide a benefit, but then taxicabs provide a benefit as well-I don't think we'd use them in the same sense.
Finally, I have not been referring here to chemicals used in agriculture. That is another whole issue, however I will disagree with you that developing countries have bettered because of their reliance on 'modern agricultural practises'. The main issue in 'banning' (and most agree that even in banning, all chemicals won't be discontinued) from municipalities is simply the use of chemicals in keeping weeds and pests off a lawn. As far as sites go about this simply go to the american Environmental Protection Agency site and it lists all the chemicals and then side effects. Diazinon has been discontinued, as have many others ('phased out' in their parlance). The idea that such poisons should be used to control a less than 1/2 acre piece of land is surely one of the silliest. As has been said before, such chemicals really are not necessary. If they are not necessary then I think that those who are claiming their ill effects should get the benefit of the doubt. As far as looking at sites to see their possible effects, instead I'll just recommend you go look at the symbols on the bag/bottle. That skull and crossbones doesn't mean it was imported by pirates.
Again, time to get to work but I will add again that it was a very good reply letter that you wrote. As you say, it is your business what you put on your lawn, but I think the times are changing when you can say "prove that it harms you", to the community saying "prove that it doesn't". If runoff were not a problem the city of Guelph nearby wouldn't have twice the synthetic chemicals that even Toronto does. Also, in Canada we do not have the legal recourses to hold people accountable that you do in the states.

[dan deutekom]

This is a great thread!:confused:

HBFOXjr. "Any suggestions how to sell good irrigation systems to people who want to regard them as a commodity where all are equal and to be purshased at the lowest price?"

I agree about irrigation and the importance for the maintenance of turf. This got me thinking about ways to promote irrigation systems and it always seems to stick on price. I wonder if leasing the system to the client is a viable answer. Just about everything else can be leased and if done right it could be quite profitable.

Tie in with complete lawn care?