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View Full Version : Scotts Max is irresponsible.


lawnguyland
04-07-2007, 06:05 PM
I just saw an ad for Scotts max weed killer, fert, and crabgrass preventer all in one product. It says to apply when weeds like dandelions are actively growing. Who can tell me what's wrong with this? It's pendimethalin .81%, 2,4 D and 25-2-5- fert.

And wait, there's more! It's not supposed to be watered for 2-3 days after applicaton. Problemo numero dos.

What kind of moron chemists do they have there?


Thank you class!

jose85
04-07-2007, 06:29 PM
i see no problem.....

1turfguy
04-07-2007, 06:49 PM
i had a gut try to sell me starter fert it was something like 32-4-8 ???
with dim. i asked if the picture on the page(the product) was correct he said yes (ginormous inhale) he was stuttering when i was threw. maybe he worked for scotts...

Runner
04-07-2007, 09:28 PM
I just saw an ad for Scotts max weed killer, fert, and crabgrass preventer all in one product. It says to apply when weeds like dandelions are actively growing. Who can tell me what's wrong with this? It's pendimethalin .81%, 2,4 D and 25-2-5- fert.
And wait, there's more! It's not supposed to be watered for 2-3 days after applicaton. Problemo numero dos.
What kind of moron chemists do they have there?
Thank you class!

They might as well put some grub control, some insect control, and a few other out of time ingredients that are completely out of synch with each other. These companies don't vare. they market it and push it out to the public, and they in turn dump it into the ground. And people get concerned about the amount of pesticides being wasted and unnecessarily used. Just like their grub control that lasts "all year long". you see this crap on the shelves and even in the aisleways of these stores long before and way long after the stuff works. the public doesn't know that, though. As long as it comes in a pretty scotts bag, it must be the ultimate stuff to use.

indyturf
04-07-2007, 09:29 PM
I guess that would work, but you still would want to get it down early. probably wouldn't get real good control on broad-leaf weeds. but if I get a new customer that is full of dandelion's they get pre & post emergent weed control!

lawnguyland
04-07-2007, 10:45 PM
Here's the deal for those that don't know....

For the pre-m to be effective it has to go down way before the proper time to treat broadleaf weeds, therefore the weed killer is not effective and polluting. Or, the pre-m would be too late if treating the weeds properly. Either way one is wasted. Then, on top of that if you wait three days to irrigate the pre-m can volatize, hence more waste and less effective. Hey Scotts- you guys are idiots. Thanks for making our water more polluted, ya big jerks.

GrowinGreeninc
04-07-2007, 11:29 PM
You are totally wrong! Maybe you use preemergent for different reasons than the rest of us do but we use it for Crabgrass control hear and it can be applied effectively from Jan 1 to about April 15th. We see dandelions and other broad leafs peak in that time frame so I fail to understand your argument! as far as volitization I suspect those dumb manufactures have counted on a certain amount of volitization in there formulation process. I would suggest you visit a manufacturers research farm to understand the large amount of research and field trials that go into a product release, The EPA will not allow a product to come out nowadays that would pollute the environment through the correct label application. I spray all of my spring apps but I think it is a good combination for the granular guys.

LindblomRJ
04-07-2007, 11:45 PM
You are totally wrong! Maybe you use preemergent for different reasons than the rest of us do but we use it for Crabgrass control hear and it can be applied effectively from Jan 1 to about April 15th. We see dandelions and other broad leafs peak in that time frame so I fail to understand your argument! as far as volitization I suspect those dumb manufactures have counted on a certain amount of volitization in there formulation process. I would suggest you visit a manufacturers research farm to understand the large amount of research and field trials that go into a product release, The EPA will not allow a product to come out nowadays that would pollute the environment through the correct label application. I spray all of my spring apps but I think it is a good combination for the granular guys.

Well I beg to differ. You are in the warm season transition zone. Whereas Lawnguyland is in New York were cool season turf is grown. In January in cool season area is generally covered with snow. Application of any fertilizer or weed control would not gain a single thing. Growing season in the cool zone will start anywhere from mid march to mid April. It all depends on geography.

GrowinGreeninc
04-08-2007, 12:38 AM
I indeed pointed out that maybe his situation was different , but my point was that his painting this as a bad product was wrong. Maybe it is for him, but as a general rule weeds germinate as the soil warms no matter where you are. The germination timing for crab and broad leafs will just be pushed back compared to here. But to say the scientist are morons is wrong!
By the way i grow 95% cool season grass here. mostly tall fescue, the only warm season is on athletic fields.

hmartin
04-08-2007, 03:34 AM
I would never buy a product like that, but it obvious why the product isn't supposed to be water in for 2-3 days.... You have to give the 2-4,d a chance to absorb before you wash it off the leaves.


Locally, Lowes is selling a Scotts 30-3-4 with 1.21% pendimethalin for $40 a bag. This is a terrible product choice for my area unless it is the second half of a split pre-emerge application. A lot of people buy it because they like the Scott's name. The Co-op sells a Prosource One 5-5-20 with .38 Barricade for $21 a bag. Even though the Prosource One product is a much better choice for this area during Jan, Feb, and early March, they don't sell a lot of it.

lawnguyland
04-08-2007, 07:59 AM
I indeed pointed out that maybe his situation was different , but my point was that his painting this as a bad product was wrong. Maybe it is for him, but as a general rule weeds germinate as the soil warms no matter where you are. The germination timing for crab and broad leafs will just be pushed back compared to here. But to say the scientist are morons is wrong!
By the way i grow 95% cool season grass here. mostly tall fescue, the only warm season is on athletic fields.

It may be ok for where you are, but not here. Maybe they won't even sell it here. The EPA is ******ed also. Christie Whitman was a moron. Oh, yeah, the air around ground zero is safe, don't worry about it. Liar (her, not you). Those guys are all morons. I don't care what kind of so called research they fabricate to meet their greedy needs. Screw them.

It may be useful as a second crabgrass application, but even then the pre-m will volatize if left to sit for three days in the May sun. Freakin morons.

Runner
04-08-2007, 12:13 PM
This IS exactly right. It either has to be one or the other. Also, when I said they should just add all the other stuff, actually, I was being facetious.

lawnguyland
04-08-2007, 12:30 PM
This IS exactly right. It either has to be one or the other. Also, when I said they should just add all the other stuff, actually, I was being facetious.

I know you were kidding! They should add round up too!

GrowinGreeninc
04-08-2007, 02:55 PM
You might as well get use to seeing products like this! With the generic pressure and epa not allowing alot of new chemistry through the big companies are going to combo products to have something to fend off the generic companies. You will see a lot more of this in the next few years.

tremor
04-08-2007, 04:57 PM
languyland is spot-on correct for the Metro NY area. From an agronomic standpoint, that is deceptive marketing for this area. By the time our weeds are actively growing, the window for Pendi is over. Some years we MIGHT have a 2 week period where this approach would work. Maybe.

DJL50
04-08-2007, 08:34 PM
Hey! I have an idea. Instead of guessing on how this product works and why Scotts is so wrong. How about contacting them for a response and see what they say. Then...take it from there.

lawnguyland
04-09-2007, 06:47 AM
Hey! I have an idea. Instead of guessing on how this product works and why Scotts is so wrong. How about contacting them for a response and see what they say. Then...take it from there.

Hey, I don't need to call them. I have a BS in Plant and Soil Sciences which includes much chemistry. I'm also a certified pesticide applicator. Call them yourself.

hughmcjr
04-09-2007, 07:13 AM
If the weeds are actively growing that is what the 2-4D is for and the Pre M while more effective sooner than later will still work if active growing weeds are sending out seed. IMO the window for Pre em is never over if none has been applied. Here in Oregon we generally have no hard freezes, but have cool season grasses.

I would rather separate apps than use a granular like that. I call any weed and feed "feed the weeds". I would still use a granular slow release and then at the same time apply Dimension and Speedzone right up until June here.

hughmcjr
04-09-2007, 07:37 AM
Here is the link to the actual product at Scotts site:

http://www.scotts.com/index.cfm/event/ProductGuide.product/documentId/E8EFF05B38DC481A9FC06B995755DCD5

I can see granular Pre em, but granular weed killer has to be applied to wet grass/weeds to work and sit for 24 hours and then get washed in. Again, I wouldn't use it, but over all I see no issue as being raised about the product.

Where it says "When to apply", it does say "typically April to June 1st which is generally correct even on LI, but that also implies there are variables that apply depending on micro climate, weather that year and several other factors.

I am playing devil's advocate here and calling BS as to the over dramatization of the OP in regards to him stating the inability of the product to do what it says it does. It does and will do what it says if used properly and at the proper time even in his area.

PR Fect
04-09-2007, 07:46 AM
No IPM. They have national ads going on but, Wisconsin is not the place for this stuff. Catch all's always have a catch!

Ric
04-09-2007, 11:09 AM
Welcome to the real world of Corporate America's Advanced Marketing Technique.

lilmarvin4064
04-09-2007, 11:37 AM
correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think pendimethalin will easily volatilize. Wouldn't the issue here be photodegradation not volatilization.

I'm usually against the idea of "weed and feed" products that apply uneccesary amounts of herbicides. But I see this product having a place for homeowers. It would make a good second app of pendi' as long as the lawn is full of broadleafs, applied when turf is wet and temperature is warm, then watered in 2 days later. But of course, it contains too much N!

lawnguyland
04-09-2007, 05:51 PM
correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think pendimethalin will easily volatilize. Wouldn't the issue here be photodegradation not volatilization.

I'm usually against the idea of "weed and feed" products that apply uneccesary amounts of herbicides. But I see this product having a place for homeowers. It would make a good second app of pendi' as long as the lawn is full of broadleafs, applied when turf is wet and temperature is warm, then watered in 2 days later. But of course, it contains too much N!

You may be correct about the photo degradation, but the point is it's wasteful. One way or another. I also agree and said it might be ok for a second app if the brodaleafs were growing, but then the pendi still sits for 2-3 days since the broadleaf killer can't get wet. And homeowners won't know this and will ruin eveything anyway! I think it's just not the best idea.

lawnguyland
04-09-2007, 05:59 PM
Here is the link to the actual product at Scotts site:

http://www.scotts.com/index.cfm/event/ProductGuide.product/documentId/E8EFF05B38DC481A9FC06B995755DCD5

I can see granular Pre em, but granular weed killer has to be applied to wet grass/weeds to work and sit for 24 hours and then get washed in. Again, I wouldn't use it, but over all I see no issue as being raised about the product.

Where it says "When to apply", it does say "typically April to June 1st which is generally correct even on LI, but that also implies there are variables that apply depending on micro climate, weather that year and several other factors.

I am playing devil's advocate here and calling BS as to the over dramatization of the OP in regards to him stating the inability of the product to do what it says it does. It does and will do what it says if used properly and at the proper time even in his area.


If someone applied it here in April it would be too early for broadleafs, therefore wasteful. There's also too much Nitrogen IMO, but that's not even the point. If it were applied in June it might work for the weeds, but not the crabgrass, unless it was the second app of a pre-m, therefore wasteful. No homeowner will time it correctly, if there even is a correct time.
I appreciate you playing devil's advocate, it's my favorite game, but I still disagree. I said it's irresponsible, not ineffective, although the timing might make it ineffective against weeds or crabgrass. Also, covering an entire property with weedkiller in and of itself is usually wasteful since not all areas will need weedkiller or even crabgrass preventer (shady areas or those that need seed in spring). A debate is always good. At least we're thinking about and discussing it!
They don't give a flying crap though, they just want money.

DJL50
04-09-2007, 10:47 PM
Hey, I don't need to call them. I have a BS in Plant and Soil Sciences which includes much chemistry. I'm also a certified pesticide applicator. Call them yourself.

I have a lot of background myself but am smart enough to know I don't know everything under the sun and can always learn something new even though I know everything. LOL!!! Next time I see Scotts in person I will try to remember to ask. Just remember, I was not the one asking the question in the first place.

(wi) Roots
04-09-2007, 11:32 PM
Will it cover control over periannual? established one's? I am calling attention to established grassy weed that are dormant. I also notice from the active ingredients that the product is lacking Dicamba? Which also mean that is will be ineffective toward specific weeds that 2,4-D or MCCP will not control. Another thing that bothers me is that the recommend amount of product to use is toward using a scotts fertilizer spreader. What if they don't have one? would the average homeowner know how to rightly apply at the recommended N-P-K based on an soil alalysis? Just more reasons why educated professional applicator are needed in our field.

lawnguyland
04-10-2007, 05:56 AM
I have a lot of background myself but am smart enough to know I don't know everything under the sun and can always learn something new even though I know everything. LOL!!! Next time I see Scotts in person I will try to remember to ask. Just remember, I was not the one asking the question in the first place.

I only stated my background so you didn't think I'm some fool making silly statements without a clue. I believe I am correct about the apps timing though. I could be wrong, but that would be highly unusual (LOL too!). If you do see a scotts guy, you can ask him, but the guys that work in the field usually aren't too bright in the first place- though you very well might find a smart guy. For example -you and I work in the field and are extremely intelligent!

green horizons
04-10-2007, 08:03 PM
With regard to the original post, yes, this product sounds irresponsible. But money talks, and Scotts has lots of it. I wouldn't use it. This really goes to the heart of licensed applicator vs. homeowner issue.

tremor
04-15-2007, 04:17 PM
Pendimethalin does volatilize if it doesn't get watered in.

heritage
04-15-2007, 05:42 PM
I just saw an ad for Scotts max weed killer, fert, and crabgrass preventer all in one product. It says to apply when weeds like dandelions are actively growing. Who can tell me what's wrong with this? It's pendimethalin .81%, 2,4 D and 25-2-5- fert.

And wait, there's more! It's not supposed to be watered for 2-3 days after applicaton. Problemo numero dos.

What kind of moron chemists do they have there?


Thank you class!

Lawnguyland,

Teachers have an education, before they can teach class.

As long as users of this product keep it out of their sewer, and use it at the proper rate and time, what's the problem???

2-4D is out of the soil (microbial degridation) in 2-3 weeks.
Pendimethlin can go to 30 days without being watered in before erratic control becomes an issue, and Pendi becomes quickly bound to the top layer of the soil it is applied to, and stays there until soil microbes break it down too.....So not watering the product for 2 days, after applying it to damp grass isn't gong to be an issue for Pendimethlin.

So I say to you, that it's not right to bash a product or company, if it's a good product.

Start reading labels, and learning more about how these products interact with the enviornment they are applied to, before spewing out false misinformation.


Pete D.

americanlawn
04-15-2007, 06:45 PM
I receive regular email updates from Scotts. Last month (March) they said I should apply "grub ex" for season long control.

Then I read the fine print----it only lasts for 3 or 4 months. hmmmmmm

In most of the USA, grubworm damage ocurrs late August thru November.

Personally, I equate Scotts with TruGreen. They both have one finger on the cash register and the other in your face as they spew their lies.

My company used to be the largest purchaser of Scotts products in the state of Iowa (295 tons the final year). Cindy Flack was our Scotts sales lady (Ohio).

Cindy was very nice. She asked that we use the "Scotts logo" in all of our advertising --- Including "showing bags of Scotts fertilizer" in our television commercials. So we did. We asked for "written permission" to be on the safe side, so she supplied it to us.

Then.........Scotts sold out & parcelled out its different divisions.

Cindy (and others) abruptly lost their jobs. Then..............................

Out of the blue, we received a "threatening letter" from a law firm out of Washington, DC representing Scotts.

They told us they would immediately sue us because we told our customers that we used Scotts products. WOW!!!

I replied to these CLOWNS that we had "written permission" from the O.M.Scotts & Sons company to use their name, and that this was actually REQUESTED by Scotts.

This "law firm" never came right and said it, but Scotts lawn care franchises were being handed out right & left all over the Country during this time.

Since then, we switched over to LESCO products for most of our fertilzer needs.

Yes, we are now LESCO's largest purchaser in our state.

Do we have a "bad taste" in our mouths regarding SCOTTS???

How would you feel? ie YES....SCOTTS ARE LIARS!!! RIP-OFFS!!!

tremor
04-15-2007, 07:10 PM
Did you ever check those SLS fertilizer bags for their labels? LESCO SKU number there. LOL

americanlawn
04-17-2007, 08:03 PM
Last year here, crabgrass did not break out until early August. (Iowa)

So we had pretty good luck with new customers who received pre as late as mid July.

Problem is.....every year is different.

Global warming?

Kyvonne
03-15-2008, 05:48 PM
Thank you for sharing the information regarding Scotts and the grubworm problem.

I will look into this however are you really a reliable source? You said that Scotts has one hand in the register and that they are liars.

What about you? Mr. American Lawcare? Are you the guy with one hand flippin his stuff out to play in a public parking lot? Do you have a secret ingredient (home made if you know what I mean) that you add to your fertilizer?

RigglePLC
03-15-2008, 08:09 PM
American is very reliable. Many good posts.

My wife called me a few minutes ago from K-Mart. She was checking the Scotts fertilizer prices.
Turfbuilder Plus Halts is $17.49 for the 5000 sqft bag. $44.99 for the 15,000 sqft bag.

K-Mart cannot carry Scotts Step One line; you have to have trained salesmen. But last week at Ace Hardware, Scott's Step One for crabgrass with fertilizer was $19.99 for the 5000 sqft bag.

Scotts product for both weeds and crabgrass is an idea that has been tried before a few times. Around here dandelions come up just before the first mowing, about the third week of April. This is fine for crabgrass control--but timing is critical--you have 10 days--after that it is probably too late based on soil temps

Whitey4
03-15-2008, 08:16 PM
Thank you for sharing the information regarding Scotts and the grubworm problem.

I will look into this however are you really a reliable source? You said that Scotts has one hand in the register and that they are liars.

What about you? Mr. American Lawcare? Are you the guy with one hand flippin his stuff out to play in a public parking lot? Do you have a secret ingredient (home made if you know what I mean) that you add to your fertilizer?


You dig up this old thread to question American's credibility? With your first ever post? There is a worm in this apple if ever I saw one.

Runner
03-15-2008, 11:27 PM
Gee, now THAT'S a good point! What's up with that?

Hissing Cobra
03-16-2008, 12:58 PM
Scotts is one of the most unethical companies in the U.S. I know that because I worked for their lawn service division. They make the simple task of applying fertilizer way too complicated.

LwnmwrMan22
03-16-2008, 02:56 PM
You dig up this old thread to question American's credibility? With your first ever post? There is a worm in this apple if ever I saw one.

No kidding... at least make it post #10 or so... sheesh :D

americanlawn
03-16-2008, 03:20 PM
I just saw an ad for Scotts max weed killer, fert, and crabgrass preventer all in one product. It says to apply when weeds like dandelions are actively growing. Who can tell me what's wrong with this? It's pendimethalin .81%, 2,4 D and 25-2-5- fert.

And wait, there's more! It's not supposed to be watered for 2-3 days after applicaton. Problemo numero dos.

What kind of moron chemists do they have there?


Thank you class!

Is this the same Scotts that sells granular broadleaf herbicide that flies into ornamental beds?:hammerhead:

If it is, it's the same Scotts that sells Grubex in April for "season-long control"..........then sells it again in the summer for "season-long grub control".

Anybody ever go to a store and have the feeling they have one finger on the cash register while they're talking to you?:laugh:

Ric
03-16-2008, 07:10 PM
Did you ever check those SLS fertilizer bags for their labels? LESCO SKU number there. LOL

Steve

Most of Scotts Fertilizer here in Florida is produced by Howards Fertilizer Company. Not to say they don't use Lesco also. Fact is I have seen Lesco Fert on their truck.

Runner
03-16-2008, 08:49 PM
Now I was told that the Scotts franchises are only using a Scotts brand fertilizer anymore. Maybe it is just the franchise around here. I will find out..I have a friend of mine who just went to work for the this last couple of weeks. Of course, it is hard to say what he will say (or what he is told),...he is doing sales. Maybe someone who owns a Scotts or currently works for them can chip in, here.

LIBERTYLANDSCAPING
03-16-2008, 08:53 PM
One of my suppliers (Not Lesco) sold quite a bit of fert to Scott's (so I was told by him) I too was a little confused by that. He told me he didn't think the lawn care / retail side were same company? I said the logo looks familiar;)

Hissing Cobra
03-16-2008, 09:22 PM
Well, when Scotts bought out the company that I was working for, they advertised the exclusive use of Scotts brand fertilizer. For the first year of the buyout, we used LESCO fertilizer and had to manually write on the invoices under "product applied", the LESCO name and analysis. That was quite the dilemma when a customer would call and ask why they got LESCO fertilizer. During year # 2, they began supplying us with Scotts bags with LESCO fertilizer inside. Apparently, they were having trouble shipping Scotts fertilizer from Ohio and contracted LESCO's plants to produce and bag it in their bags. So, year # 2 was also LESCO fertilizer in Scotts bags. During year # 3, they finally got their crap together and sent us Scotts patented fertilizer.

Their marketing is a lot better than their applications, that's for sure.

LwnmwrMan22
03-17-2008, 12:13 AM
Well, when Scotts bought out the company that I was working for, they advertised the exclusive use of Scotts brand fertilizer. For the first year of the buyout, we used LESCO fertilizer and had to manually write on the invoices under "product applied", the LESCO name and analysis. That was quite the dilemma when a customer would call and ask why they got LESCO fertilizer. During year # 2, they began supplying us with Scotts bags with LESCO fertilizer inside. Apparently, they were having trouble shipping Scotts fertilizer from Ohio and contracted LESCO's plants to produce and bag it in their bags. So, year # 2 was also LESCO fertilizer in Scotts bags. During year # 3, they finally got their crap together and sent us Scotts patented fertilizer.

Their marketing is a lot better than their applications, that's for sure.

That's how you get to be a big shiny national company.