Painful lesson

[cutntrim]

I'm posting this to hopefully save some of you from suffering a blow to your business similar to what my partner and I were hit with yesterday. <p>We &quot;had&quot; a contract for 58 commercial properties scattered over a wide area and owned by a single company. We dedicated a great amount of resource, equipment, and time (blood,sweat,tears) to providing a quality service for this customer. We've gone through four different property managers in 8 years. Property manager number two cancelled all of our services and gave the contract to a friend - we know this for a fact. A couple years later he was out of a job and the new manager re-looked at our quotes and hired us back. When he left and the third guy came onboard he ditched us to go with a lowball company that ended up bailing out on him in the middle of a very wet spring. He dug up our prices and we were re-hired again. Now he's gone, and another new guy is in...we're out. &quot;Significantly lower prices&quot; is the reason we've been cancelled.<br>The point I am making is to be wary of putting too many eggs into one basket. We knew of the possible consequences but it's very tempting to discount individual prices in order to secure the overall sum of properties. Unfortunately this plays into the hands of a property manager who can play off each lawn company against one another until he gets rock bottom prices. <p>We've learned the hard way, stay away from contracts where quality means nothing and price is the ONLY bottom line. We built our company on quality, residential lawn care and we'll continue to consider that our bread and butter. Our aim will be to expand our commercial base one property at a time. <p>Consider the consequences of assuming a giant contract under the control of one person, long and hard before you commit your company. <p>We are going to have to let go of some valuable employees because of this and as many of you know, good help is extremely hard to find.<p>----------<br>Dave in S.Ontario<br>

[thelawnguy]

I wouldnt give up just yet. If you havent alredy done so, pop in for a face-to-face meeting with the mgr and lay it out just like you did here. Maybe you can salvage at least some of the accounts. Seems you have all to gain and nothing to lose at this stage of the game.<p>Maybe you can adjust the pricing, make up for it by giving em what they want, just brown-paper the name on the truck while your there.<p>Bill

[turfquip]

<br>Excellent post cutntrim.<p>This circumstance(and it happens in EVERY market) cries out for more collaboration among respectable companies, more professionalism, cooperation, etc.

[cutntrim]

Lawnguy,<p>I sent him a carefully worded e-mail (he cancelled us via e-mail) in response late last night. Asked him to contact me on my cell phone (it'll be on all day). We're hoping to retain some of the properties (those closest to us) and if he cold-shoulders us I plan on going over his head...as you say, nothing to lose. However, his day will come when he's replaced by yet another property manager and the contract will again be up for renewal. Next time we won't bid on the whole enchilada...just the nearby properties. <p>Another point I forgot to mention - demand multi-year contracts whenever possible. Once you have &quot;proven&quot; yourself after your first season ask for a 3 year contract the next season. This company is one of the few that actually seems to solicit new prices each and every season. We plow snow for them too, and they won't sign an annual contract for both services. Bad stuff.<p>----------<br>Dave in S.Ontario<br>

[nlminc]

Dave, Try and meet one on one with this manager and give it a shot. The same thing happened to me this past year with a condominium. I was told all season that I would get the contract back because we made the place look beautiful while the other condo's were not having trouble with drought, poor workmanship and so on. Then comes Dec. and this lowballer in town takes away 8 condos. One was mine. I decided to pay a little visit to the manager who decided on the contract and due to a little intimiding demeanor, he signs the contract back to me. The funny thing about it was, I just wanted to make him tell me face to face why I was bounced from the job,I never thought he would rollover so easy. Like most people, they hate confrontation. If that job means much to you, you owe it to yourself and those valuable employees to stand up to this guy. Most of these management companies just think you will move on and forget about it. I mainly focus my business in high end and middle class residential just for that reason. <br>Good luck,<br>Chris

[Stonehenge]

cutntrim<p>Sounds like a very painful lesson. Thanks for posting the experience here - gives me pause to consider that kind of issue myself, and how to insulate my company.<p>Thanks

[GrassMaster]

Hello cutntrim:<p>Sorry to hear about your misfortune. I know it's no help but it's called being self employed.<p>I had this happen to me several times. I had a contract with a apartment complex one time for over a year very lot of grass no problem But bushes & edging was killer. We had it under control & no problem.<p>New manager let son in law do it for $5 dollars a month less. I was getting $2000 a month. He started in spring with 12.5 MTD 38&quot; cut mower, Ryobi trimmer & hand held blower. He did nothing but cut for 3 months, LOL he didn't even have trailer.<p>I got it back for $2200 a month & a $1500 clean up fee. She came up to me (they were almost 3 months behind) I told her I was going to stop services & take legal action. <p>She laughed & asked me to put down about 1400 bales of pine straw I think. Then she would pay me, I told her to pay for 3 months & then I put down straw ( $4.50 ) bale installed.<p>She let me go on spot, I found out who her boss was. Contacted them & told them what happened. She lost her job, they came in person checked my work then gave her the shaft.<p>People in this business can say what they want, but I take residential any day of the week over commercial. <p>Residential customers will give you loyalty. That's what keeps us in business!<p><p>----------<br>GrassMaster - Home: www.lawnservicing.com<br>My Start Up Page www.lawnservicing.com/startup/

[Nilsson Associates]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, my business was 100% commercial and contracts ran for three years ... nevertheless, each year I would bid an additional $300,000 give or take to &quot;protect&quot; from this situation. <p>With commercial you can never &quot;rest&quot; thinking that the work will always be there for you. I used to get cancel calls ... but because I had a stack of offers always on the table ... I'd simply say ... &quot;You're going to cancel, going with somebody else for a lower price ... NO PROBLEM&quot; and slam the phone down in their ears ... <p>Commercial accounts can put you out of business if you let them ... cancel them with better work contracts BEFORE they cancel you is part of the commercial game.<br>Nothing personal about it.<p>Phil Nilsson<p>P.S. forgot to mention that we were never &quot;fired&quot; for poor workmanship ... it was always that somebody else had a lower price ... and that &quot;lower price&quot; was offered to us to continue ... but I simply say &quot;no thank you&quot; and go onto plan b. A few years later, we'd be back again after the place for left to shambles because the other guy cut corners, couldn't hack it.<br>

[Charles]

Low ballers, friends of the owner/manager and relatives of the owner/manager really can knock you out of a job no matter the quality of your work. Low ballers don't think about the long term of this business. Their idea is to go in low and go up on them every year or so. But what happens is they go up for a few years and then someone comes in and lowballs them. The process starts all over again and holds the lawn service business prices back in the 1950s. No matter what quality of work you do or how friendly u and the owners are. Their is that temptation to go with someone who has cut your price in half. Or a relative who has just bought a mower and wants to pay for it. Some tight wads will dump u over 5$$$. Even though our cost have gone way up. The owner/ managers can keep what they think they should be. Instead of what we have to have it to make a living. All because they know that some new guy will come along and shred your price.

[Nilsson Associates]

For all of the above reasons ... new people to the bizz should be made aware of where the prices &quot;should be&quot; ... but if they were .. would they pay any attention to them?<br>I mean you know, if there were &quot;standards&quot;?<br>or continue to price low to &quot;grab some work&quot;?<br>

[cutntrim]

Thanks for the responses and support. My response to this property manager via e-mail asked him to phone me on my cell today so that we could discuss the contract. He did not do that, instead he sent an e-mail in which he told us he went with another contractor for a savings of 6%. He praised our quality of work and the ease of dealing with us and said he can &quot;only hope the new contractor will be as good to deal with&quot;. In response to my inquiry about retaining at least the properties in our immediate geographic area, he said he considered splitting the properties between two companies but the &quot;savings would be minimal&quot;. He further said he did not &quot;believe&quot; in giving contractors an opportunity to price match because it would affect the quality of their work. <p>We have worked for this company for the better part of 7 years and evidently he does not feel this continuity, nor the quality of our service, is worth 6%. Furthermore, he admits that dividing the contract between us and the lowballer guy would realize a dollar savings. Yet, he says it would be minimal. How then do you describe a savings of 6%? Maximal?!? <p>Yes we do owe it to ourselves to fight this all that we can, and I will address him with regards to his contradictory e-mail tomorrow, but the fact remains the same...I am powerless to stop him from awarding the contract to a lowballer, friend or other-wise. I can swallow my principles and match price (increasing equipment productivity to offset lowering our costs) but not if he won't give me the chance.<p><p>----------<br>Dave in S.Ontario<br>

[HOMER]

Diversify, thats the name of the game. I hate to hear that you were beat out by a mere 6% but all these brown nosers want to do is impress their superiors, look what I did boss, saved us $100.00 over the next 5 years, can I have a raise!! It's total B.S. but thats the way they work! <p>I called my property manager today, let her know that the contract had expired on my one and only apt. complex. She wasn't even aware that it had expired but when I asked if they were going to re-bid it, the first thing she asked was &quot;is your price going to be the same?&quot; Never did she say&quot; we were impressed with the quality of your work, the shrubs looked great all year, the curbs were in great shape. All she wanted to know was if I was going up on my price. HELL YA I'M GOING UP ON MY PRICE!!!!!!!!!!!! There are only about 340 shrubs at this place! I took a bath last year, but I won't this year. If I &quot;brown bag it&quot; then they'll have something to say. It ain't no different than working for &quot;the man&quot;, they never see the good in what you do, only the problems get you attention.<p>I don't have a good answer to the problem, I wish I did. Having 58 residentials though would ensure that you would have some regular work, chances of all 58 calling and telling you bye bye are slim to none unless your face gets plastered on the front page.<p>Homer

[Charles]

Dave it' s not your job to as you say &quot; swallow my principles etc&quot;. The contractor that took your job will find out soon enough that a business cannot be sustained without a decent profit margin. You have already learned that. You don't sound like you are being greedy. Go bid on something else as soon as you can. There are many companies out there that appreciate quality of work at a decent price. We all lose and gain business all the time due to one reason or another. Just because a man owns a business or manages one means that he know what it take to run your business. This man is obviously ignorant to what it takes to run a quality dependable lawn service business. So his contractors and employees will come and go. And soon he will go:)

[SLSNursery]

Don't waste another minute on it. If you try to hard to get the job, you might be sending the wrong signal. I have a couple of stories:<p>1. Last year in Nov. a property manager called us to bid a snow job. I told her the price verbally, and she almost fell down. We do other work for her, but I was not interested in this job, and couldn't do it cost effectively, so I was honest with her. A friend of mine ended up with the job for the same price I bid. Now, on a referral for snow at a place I can service, she mentioned to my referral that we 'jumped ship' at the eleventh hour on the aforementioned job. We did no such thing. Point, is, there is no loyalty, and I'm glad I didn't lower the price or work to hard to please her. I still have the jobs with her that I perform well at, and because the customers are happy with the end results, the price isn't an issue.<p>2. I have bid a condo for several years. They are paying about 20k for maintenance services, that I have bid 33k for. I took the lawn care (chemical) contract last year from a big commercial company because this place wanted service. They renewed my chemical contract, and were happy with the reports and advice I provided them. They are now considering my bid for the landscaping. It is still high, and if on the chance I get the contract, it will be because I didn't change my standards, and my consistency will speak for itself. My point here is that the only problem with sticking to your guns is that someone might say your prices are high. Big deal, think of how that manager will feel when the cheaper bid company tries to bill for extras, or doesn't do the job. When someone complains, he will be put to trial for being pennywise and pound foolish. Direct your efforts at marketing towards and attracting new customers who fit in your niche. Learn from the lesson and move forward, don't wallow in it.<p>----------<br>Phil Grande - Soundview Landscape Supply - http://members.aol.com/slsnursery<br>Ivy League Landscaping - http://members.aol.com/scagrider

[lawrence stone]

Dave what might be a low ball price to one contractor might be 25% gross profit margin<br>to another contractor.<p>How big are your mowers? My set up for wide<br>areas is a 52&quot; & 62&quot; walk behinds with stand<br>up sulkies on a 5.5 x 12 open trailer. I can run both those machines for about $5/hour in<br>mower. fuel, and maint. costs.<p>So if you see a set up like that in your service area you would be advised to quit<br>the lawn care biz and become a priest.

[cutntrim]

Lawrence,<p>Your levity is as always amusing. We run a 52&quot; Toro Z and a 54&quot; WB riding on a 6'x14' open trailer for the larger properties.<p><p>----------<br>Dave in S.Ontario<br>

[John Deere]

Lawrence Stone: Maybe I'm just not smart enough (although I doubt it) but are you saying you can make money at $5.00 an hour per mower? Please, I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything. I jst want to know if that's what you mean and if not then explain it to me. It reads to me that you are saying you are making money at $5.00 a mower per hour. Sorry if that's not the case.

[Eric ELM]

John Deere, What Larry said was: I can run both those machines for about $5/hour in<br>mower. fuel, and maint. costs. <p>I read this as his expenses on his equipment per hour.<p>----------<br>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.townserver.com/elm/&quot;&gt;Eric@ELM&lt;/a&gt;<br>

[Lazer]

Bear in mind while he's maintaining and repairing those old machines constantly, (I've owned over 20 Toro's, I know.)<p>While he's doing that, he's competition is still mowing for $30.00/machine/hour.<p>His cost on paper may only be $5.00/hour, but the opportunity cost is much higher.<br>

[Charles]

Larry, How you come up with that 5.00$ figure? Those mowers could break down at anytime. The truck you pull the equipment could break down. Tommorrow you may have to replace or repair any equipment you have. Older, cheaper equipment on average need repairing and replaceing sooner than newer equipment.

[Mowin4cash]

I know that if one of my commercial properties did me that way, they wouldn't get an opportunity to screw me again. Remember the old saying, &quot;Screw me once, shame on you......screw me twice, shame on me&quot; (Or something like that)<p>Mike

[lawrence stone]

Breakdowns are not age dependent. Breakdowns<br>happen do to poor perventative maint.<p>All my machines are preped and some are in<br>use today March 8. That has got to be one of<br>the earliest dates I have started spring services. <p>Actually some of my old mowers (with 16 HP twin kohler magnums) are better than new<br>OHV engines IMHO. They more use more fuel<br>put they run cooler and very hard to overload.

[Lee Homan]

Are we not just as guilty for choosing the lowest price when buying services or products as our customers our? For example how many people have switched their long distance carrier to save a few pennies a minute, or took the $14.95 oil change at the tire shop rather than the $21.95 goodwrench at the GM dealer? How about Buying gas down the street where it is .05 a gallon cheaper, when even if you filled your tank it wouldn't amount to maybe a buck or two. The list goes on and on. I think to some degree were all guilty of it, we just don't pay attention until it happens to us. Just some food for thought.

[Lazer]

I agree with you on maintenance, but...<p>The older a machine gets the more time it requires you to work ON instead of WITH.<br>

[ashlandscaping]

Hey Cuttrim a friend just lost 3 large jobs in the range of total for all 3 $ 30000 per year. To 1 % now that is sad. They have had these property for 7 years year round won awards and all and that is how they treat him. It can be nerve beating but can be well worth it.

[John Deere]

Lee Homan: I really don't want to get into this to deep, but you are comparing apples to oranges. Those services that you have listed might have different prices, but they all have industry standards. Believe me, they know where there bottom line is and they all make a profit where we are trying to point out that a lot of the people in our industry don't know where there bottom line is. Furthermore I think a lot of us our looking for a better way to handle our accounts year and year out without the chance of losing our accounts to someone who doesn't know what they are bidding on and some manager only looking at price and not price + quality + reliability. Yes we are all looking to get a good deal when it comes to everyday items and services, but there is something to be said about loyalty.

[Jay Raley]

Larry,<p>Once again your negativity and willingness to promote yourself as the &quot;end all, be all&quot; contractor shines through once again.<p>I believe you are the smartest man alive. With that being said do you want a medal or a chest to pin it on? <p>I am being smart mouthed and very disrespectful in this post, and I don't care. I have had it up to my ears with Mr. Stone and I am on the attack. If I get banned, so be it.<p>I would put this in an e-mail but I can't seem to find one for 'ol Larry. <p>Dave,<p>I sympathize with you my brother. Last year we bid 3 apartment complexes ran by 1 management firm. The guy that got the bid knocked us by $100.00 for each complex. We thought that we were dead square on our bid, no smudging anything because it was a friend of a friend. Anyway, we got bumped. 2 weeks ago the same firm calls us and wants us to bid this year. I'm thinking these folks think they are gonna try and see if we are gonna come down on our price with them. We met for lunch and I told them that we couldn't swing it without increasing our prices 3% straight across the board. They jumped right on it. Turns out the yo-yo that got the bid last year wasn't worth a damn. He was a real idiot. Called these folks on Saturdays wanting to know if it was ok if he came and did some work. They finally got fed up. And all 3 places are a total wreck. <p>Just roll with it. They will be back, I would bet on it. And when they come back make 'em pay through the nose. And if the don't come back, oh well. Every new beginning is some other beginnings end. <p>----------<br>Jay Raley<br>The Good Earth Grounds Management

[Nilsson Associates]

John Deere hit the nail on the head when he used the term ... &quot;industry standards&quot; because there are none. The three issues that cause contractors to stray away from the concept of what the work is &quot;worth&quot; are ...<p>1. Knowing how long the job will take ... contractor A figures 100 man hours ... contractor B figures 80 man hours.<p>2. The multiplier ... contractor A multiplies his 100 hours by let's say $35<br>and contractor B multiplies his 80 hours by<br>let's say $25<p>3. Cost issues ... contractor A has legitimate costs, insurance, payroll taxes,<br>overtime wages, rents an operating facility and has other &quot;normal&quot; expenses. Contractor B pays wages under the table, works from his home where he may not be in compliance with zoning regulations, doesn't report wages for workers, and may not even be recognizing business income at all.<p>The other big variable is that when new folks enter the business ... they don't &quot;pass through the doorway of understanding&quot; meaning knowing those two above ... time or pricing are learned the hard way ... if at all. A &quot;new start&quot; often ends up pricing too low to get a &quot;foothold&quot;, doesn't make enough money to cover costs, wears out the equipment and can't replace it, gets discouraged, and moves on to something else. In the meanwhile he &quot;screws up&quot; the market at the lower end which causes a ripple effect right to the top rung of the &quot;price ladder&quot;. Each &quot;new start&quot; needs to be educated and know about the TIME REQUIREMENTS OF THE WORK and ... THE PRICE REQUIREMENTS OF THE WORK. The &quot;others&quot; ... the existing businesses need to form a &quot;solidarity&quot; as to prices and rates and not simply engage in bidding wars thjat depress the prices in general ... and that ... is a huge undertaking ... because it requires a huge amount of cooperation. Independent business people sometimes are too independent leading to a continuation year after year in a &quot;price struggle&quot; that only the customer can win at. In many markets the customers have been winning the &quot;price wars&quot; for many years ... no pricing standards<br>... no &quot;quantity&quot; of work standards has fueled this situation. Look at the auto repair business as an example ... the hourly rate is posted so the station owner is not &quot;at risk&quot; for how long the job will take ... he gives the estimate based on what the &quot;book&quot; says in a range suggested in the &quot;book&quot;. I had the CV joints replaced in my car ... the posted hourly rate was $49 for labor ... when asked what the job would cost ... the mechanic went to the book, looked it up and said about 3 to 4 hours, give or take.<br>How do you like that system? Another alternative is a &quot;merging of businesses&quot; under one name in local markets ... where prices are the same for everybody within the system. Something like paying the same for a cup of Dunkin Donuts coffee no matter if you're in New York or Alabama. <p>Phil Nilsson<p>P.S. It's not hard to make money when you don't have any expenses against the income and are operating illegally. <p>Phil Nilsson

[lawrence stone]

Jay wrote:<p>&gt;I am being smart mouthed and very disrespectful in this post, and I don't care. I have had it up to my ears with Mr. Stone and I am on the attack. If I get banned, so be it.<p>I would put this in an e-mail but I can't seem to find one for 'ol Larry. <p>----------------------------------------<p>And why would I even open e-mail from you?<br>Are you special?<p>Maybe it's time you got a job and stopped complaining about YOUR feelings.<p>Now get a life. I have got to go for I have<br>five figure maint. contracts I need to perform.<p>

[lawrence stone]

Phil wrote:<p>&gt; the existing businesses need to form a &quot;solidarity&quot; as to prices and rates and not simply engage in bidding wars thjat depress the prices in general <br>-----------------------<br>Don't the feds have laws against &quot;anti-trust&quot;<br>issues?<br>

[thelawnguy]

Charles wrote:<br>&quot;Low ballers, friends of the owner/manager and relatives of the owner/manager really can knock you out of a job no matter the quality of your work.&quot;<p>Charles I think you have one of the keys here. I have two commercial accounts, one large industrial park condo complex for snow and grounds and a furniture store/vocational school complex for lawn care only. Both these jobs I have because I know someone and knocked the old contractor out. No lowball needed, though Im sure they told the old contractor that I was &quot;cheaper&quot; (I wasnt). I cant get the snow at the furniture store because the snow guy has been in there a lot longer than me. And these are the same reasons I cant get in other commercial places-its who you know, not how much you charge, at least if you plan to keep the account.<p>Phil Nilsson writes <p>&quot;1. Knowing how long the job will take ... contractor A figures 100 man hours ... contractor B figures 80 man hours.<p>2. The multiplier ... contractor A multiplies his 100 hours by let's say $35 and contractor B multiplies his 80 hours by let's say $25<p>3. Cost issues ... contractor A has legitimate costs, insurance, payroll taxes,<br>overtime wages, rents an operating facility and has other &quot;normal&quot; expenses. Contractor B<br>pays wages under the table, works from his home where he may not be in compliance with<br>zoning regulations, doesn't report wages for workers, and may not even be recognizing<br>business income at all.&quot;<p>These are the facts and realities of this business. Not everybody takes the same amount of time to perform a specific task, for a number of reasons. Not everybody has the same nut to crack, be it because they run out of a trailer or a prime commercial store-front office, runs brand-new hydro z-turns or ten year old gear drive bobcats. And not everybody desires, or can command in their market, the same hourly rate net.<p>Every lawn is different. Every worker is different. Every locale is different. Everybodys needs are different. So everybodys view of how much, how long, how come(!) will be different.<p>Those that cant accept the realities of this business probably are doing themselves and their customers a disservice by remaining in it.<p>Im glad there is no standard to go by. Even with flat-rate manuals for automotive, the times go out the window once the vehicle is a couple years old, rusty, etc. How can a lawn be flat-rated, I have a 34 inseam, you have a 29 inseam, hills, morning dew, constant shade or sun, you all get the picture.<p>Bill

[Nilsson Associates]

Above post ... one mechanic faster than another? ... one car rusty another not? Hourly rates &quot;cure&quot; local situations to some extent ... then customer probably chooses one mechanic over another (if hrly rates are same) based on honesty, doing a good job, or past experiences with that particular repair shop. Hourly rates allow the mechanic to &quot;ball park&quot; an estimated based on times recorded in the reference book. At other times he'll do the work based on a fixed price that he's pretty sure of.<p>Phil Nilsson

[plowking35]

I have not read the lawn care forum in a while, and I remember why. Phil is still posting. If think Larry knows it all he must have learned it from Phil, since he is the Godfather of all landscapers.<br>And I do agree with Larry, the feds do have anti trust/colusion laws.And what Phil forgot to mention is that when that new guy finally goes out of business, there are 10 more to take their place.<br>I said it before and I will say it again.<br>Those who can do, those who cant consult.

[Nilsson Associates]

Plowking ...<br>are you saying that I'm not welcome to post here?<p>Phil Nilsson

[plowking35]

No Phil you can post anything and all the time. This is not my forum, if it was then it may be a different story. This is the US and Freedom of speech is a right. I will chose rather not read your posts and that way not be reminded how ridiculus this industry has gotten.<br>The day anyones lawn whether commercial or residential becomes the most important thing in ones life(whether that be the contractors or customers) we have gone way to far. We keep saying service service service, we raise the bar so high, that we cannot compete anymore with ourselves let alone one another. Then I read from pro's in the business like yourself and others that say we need to raise it even higher, and do this and that,use this formula to figure your costs, use that formula for profit. Well in the real that doesnt work. each indvidual is different, and each business is different. Just let evryone be, and things will shake out on their own.<br>As far as losing the customer, suck it up, it happens everyday in every type of business.<br>I lost a roof contract last fall after a verbal agreement , for 300$ which was 5% of my total cost. The contractor didnt include alot of things I was going to. But hey that happens. <br>

[plowking35]

GABBY<br>DADDY<br>MAMMA<br>TINKERBELL<br>SHADOW<br>BABY BROTHER/SISTER<br>My 4 yr old daughetr typed this to remind all of use what is important.<br>

[lawrence stone]

Plow king wrote:<p>&gt;I will chose rather not read your posts and that way not be reminded how ridiculus this industry has gotten.<p>How does one not read a message but the is able to respond to the same message?<p>&gt;Then I read from pro's in the business like yourself and others that say we need to raise it even higher, and do this and that,use this formula to figure your costs, use that formula for profit.Well in the real that doesnt work. each indvidual is different, and each business is different. Just let evryone be, and things will shake out on their own. <p>So you are suggesting the everyone be ignorant and go thru thier business life without any knowledge or direction?<p>There a certain formulas that apply to<br>every business. Without gaining this knowledge<br>early you are sending your business a death<br>wish.<p>Eventually when your ignorance will overcome the profits you might have stepped into in the past will be history and you and the most important thing to you in your world will be standing<br>in line for a cot down at the homeless shelther.<p><br>

[grasskutter]

Everybody loses accounts by being low-balled,I have lost some for a mere 5$,Usually I get called back a few months later, but turn them down, because it will happen again in the future. Have fun at this job life is short,there is enough work now for everyone. take it easy, this should be fun!!!<br>As for you Larry,some of you think you know everything,when the rest of us do know everything. I expect a few useless comments from you on this, sorry everybody.<p>----------<br>grasskutter@cs.com<br>

[Charles]

You remember that plowking when you have to pay to put those kids through college. What does it cost per kid now? $50000?Probably be 100,000 in 18yrs.I don't really know. Trying to get the price to at least keep up with inflation and letting other lawn services to know what most other are charging. I see nothing wrong with that. I am not talking about price fixing. Just education. I think Phil, larry and everyone has a right to there opinons without abuse from others.<br>

[Nilsson Associates]

When I was in this business I could see that lots of green industry folks just weren't getting a &quot;fair shake&quot; ... I always felt that the industry was being taken advantage of by customers who seemed to look down their &quot;noses&quot; at those who earn a living by doing physical work if you will. At that time, if you didn't go to work carrying a brief case, well ... some thought you were &quot;uneducated&quot; ... sometimes you could &quot;sense&quot; or &quot;feel&quot; being looked down upon ... at that time you were just a guy with a shovel so how much could you know? That was over ten years ago and lots of things have changed. Prices in some markets are much better now, owning your own business has a better status now, the industry inch by inch has gained more professionalism ... the environmental issues and awareness has made a difference, brought more attention to the industry. <p>Like you, I've seen lots of green industry people &quot;come and go&quot;, come in with all good intentions, work hard, get &quot;punished&quot; in the system, fade away, maybe that view, my view was influenced by the notion that I've always been for &quot;the underdog&quot; .. don't like to see good people get &quot;beat up&quot; working their tails off, maybe not much to show for it. That's why I'm for higher pricing, see the &quot;people&quot; getting more out of it, less struggle, more respect, better lifestyles, the whole nine yards. Never thought the &quot;good life&quot; ... family, friends, earning a good living was only reserved for the bankers, lawyers, doctors or Madison Avenue &quot;fastrackers&quot;. <p>Snowking is right about what's important, family, friends, a sense of belonging. My position is that I merely want to see everybody have a good life &quot;financially&quot; so that we can all take better care of our families. The &quot;haves&quot;, the &quot;have nots&quot; ... both sides of the fence but I always figured that just because a person works with their hands for a living is no reason why they shouldn't get just a little closer to the &quot;promised land&quot;. I'm for the little guy getting a &quot;piece of the action&quot; being proud of how they earn a living, having something to show for it. It wasn't that long ago when the majority of folks working the green industry made much money. Things have gotten a lot better since then, and if these posts will or can prevent just one &quot;unsuspecting&quot; newcomer from making mistakes that &quot;stamp out hopes&quot; and &quot;squash dreams&quot; then it will have been all worthwhile.<p>I don't have all the answers, neither does Lawrence, nor Snowking, nobody does ... but we try to do what we can. That's why forums like this are so helpful, making things easier for everybody, avoiding the pitfalls, hopefully all can continue to &quot;give&quot; whatever they can on a friendly note.<p>Thank you<br>Phil Nilsson<p>