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hdtvluvr
04-10-2007, 08:27 PM
OK, I have tried to find a replacement engine without success. It goes in a John Deere 111 and I've been told that an engine with OHV will not fit. The JD has an electric PTO which requires a higher output than just charging a battery.

I checked with a local repair shop and was given an estimate of approx. $500 to rebuild. It does burn a little oil and it also leaks. The main problem is that it lacks power. The governor doesn't work. I can rotate the governor clockwise with a screwdriver and the engine will speed up. The governor will NOT turn counterclockwise.

Based on photos I've seen, it appears that 2 weights on the splasher move outward when the engine is running thus causing a cap to extend and rotate the governor rod. However, this rotation appears to be counterclockwise based on the photos. Therefore, I'm not sure how the governor would ever work.

The engine has been without a governor for about 5 years. The mower hasn't been used much but is now called upon for spraying, fertilizing and occassionally rough mowing. Anyway, I assume the splasher is working properly since the engine hasn't seized due to lack of lubriction.

What could be the problem? Is it the weights / cap or is it an external adjustment? I've looked at the governor, throttle cable, etc. area and it is difficult to tell anything about it (everything is behind a metal plate on the engine). With the age of the engine, it could be a linkage, spring, adjustment, etc. What do I need to look for?

Again, based on the photos I've seen, it doesn't seem difficult to replace the splasher, weights, & cap. But I don't want to take the engine off, find out all parts are there and in good shape and discover I missed something external? Has anyone seen this problem before?

One company said an 18 HP v-twin would fit under the hood but it was $900. I'll admit that more power would be welcomed but $900 is too much. I've found a new 18 hp v twin for a little over $500 but I don't know if I would need a new throttle cable, voltage regulator (currently only have the diode) and I don't know how to wire it.

Any help is appreciated.

Motor specs (original engine)
Model 252707
Code 0644-01
Type 82092911

khouse
04-10-2007, 09:44 PM
Does the engine over rev at high idle? When you snap the throttle from low to high idle can you see the governor arm working?

Restrorob
04-10-2007, 11:02 PM
I'd be willing to bet if you open this engine you will find the governor plate hole elongated causing no response to adjustment.

Just ran across this; http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/product.asp?PN=SB396610&desc=Briggs+Engine+11+HP+Vertical+1+x3+5+32+shaft+SHORTBLOCK+ONLY+for+251700+252700+253700+series

hdtvluvr
04-11-2007, 08:09 AM
Khouse
I'm not sure about over rev at high idle. I'll check to see if the governor arm works tonight when I get home.

Restrorob,
So with a shortblock, does that mean I would need to use my starter, flywheel, stator, carb and engine cover? Any other parts from my old engine needed?

How difficult is it to build? Any links? Any special tools needed?

Thanks

Restrorob
04-11-2007, 06:38 PM
So with a shortblock, does that mean I would need to use my starter, flywheel, stator, carb and engine cover?
Any other parts from my old engine needed?
How difficult is it to build?
Any links?
Any special tools needed?


Yes.....but no engine cover,

Yes, ALL external parts must be swapped.

Not difficult, Set your old engine on a work bench then set the shortblock next to it. Remove one part at a time and install on the new one. Continue the process until all parts are swapped.

Here is one link which is a complete break-down on the engine, No on-line service manuals that I have been able to find.

http://www.briggspowershop.com/BriggsAndStratton/advancedsearch.aspx

The only special tools needed is a torque wrench to torque the head and a recoil clutch tool if you have recoil start, Which there are ways around having to use that tool.

hdtvluvr
04-11-2007, 08:06 PM
Khouse,
Governor arm didn't move when I went from low to high idle.

Regarding the torque wrench, I have one that measures ft/pbs. Would this be the correct on? How many ft/lbs are necessary for the head bolts?

Will the timing already be set up on the short block? Do I have to adjust the governor somehow before cranking? Taking parts off one and putting on another sounds easy enough but what do I need to know as far as adjustments?

Restrorob
04-11-2007, 09:30 PM
Will the timing already be set up on the short block?
Do I have to adjust the governor somehow before cranking?

Yes, The timing will be set, You will not be inside the engine so no worry about that.

Yes, The governor MUST be adjusted before start-up.

Below is the specs. and what a short block looks like, This is all you get to put all your parts on.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m314/Restrorob/BriggsHeadTorquePattern.jpg?t=1176340115

hdtvluvr
04-12-2007, 08:12 AM
>>> Governor adjustment:
Tighten the bolt nut .... but don't pinch the the arm closed. <<<

I don't understand what you are talking about here. Do you have a diagram?

Also, what is the torque specs for the oil pan bolts?

What is the best way to remove the PTO clutch? Is there a puller? When I put it back on, should I use anti-seize?

Lastly, should I just replace the oil pan gasket & governor on the engine I have and wait to shortblock it when it totally dies?

Restrorob
04-12-2007, 07:07 PM
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m314/Restrorob/BriggsGovernorArm.jpg?t=1176418473


Sump (pan) Torque 140 in.lbs or 12 ft.lbs

No puller that I know of. Drain oil and fuel from engine, Flip up side down and remove crank bolt then spray penetrating oil in that area. Install a longer bolt then find a helper, Grab the outside of the clutch and pick the engine up off your work bench about a half inch and have helper tap on the head of the bolt and if your lucky it will slide off.

Always use anti-seize on items as this.

That's entirely up to you.

hdtvluvr
04-12-2007, 09:30 PM
Thanks for all of the links and images. I'm going to look up the part #'s this weekend and try to get the parts ordered.

Restrorob
04-12-2007, 09:49 PM
Replace the lower (sump) seal while your in there.

Good Luck....

hdtvluvr
05-05-2007, 03:22 PM
Restrorob,

Well, I got the engine out. The electric PTO and drive pulley slid right off after I removed the crankshaft bolt. I purchased a new gasket kit and governor/splasher. I was going to put everything back together today and decided to go ahead and adjust the governor (all the way counterclockwise with the throttle wide open as you described). This is when I noticed that the governor arm would not turn. Something doesn't seem right. There are indentions in the side of the block. Could the "key" have etched this over the years? Or are they there for a reason? The "key" arms fit into these slots and won't allow the arm to move when all is assembled - see photo below.

Also, how far counterclockwise should the arm be turned? Just to the end of travel of the governor cap? Please let me know the answers to these as I would like to finish this project as soon as possible.

Oh, BTW, there wasn't a gasket bewteen the sump and block. Is this normal?

Bill Kapaun
05-05-2007, 04:23 PM
I'll defer to Rob since he probably actually has an engine to look at, but-
It appears the "clamp" is pushed too far on the shaft.
Is there a thin washer behind the keeper. The IPL shows one on page 3 pn# 94742 (ref 230)-
I'd also inspect for the "elongated hole" Rob mentioned(from the first page of this thread) and any other internal parts, since they are accessible.

hdtvluvr
05-05-2007, 04:55 PM
Thanks for replying. The "clamp" appears to be too far on the shaft because I loosened it and pushed the governor arm towards the outside so the keeper (key) wouldn't be in the indention and photograph better. The outside of the clamp was even with the darker part of the screwhead.

There is a washer but it is between the keeper and the clamp - not the keeper and the side of the engine. Where is it supposed to be? I saw it in the IPL. However, the illustration shows the governor arm "head" on the left, keeper (next if going from left to right) and then the washer. This seems to imply that the washer is farthest to the outside and thus closest to the clamp which is how it was put together. I just looked and there isn't room for the washer between the keeper and the engine.

I have a new governor so the elongated hole isn't an issue.

Bill Kapaun
05-05-2007, 05:12 PM
What good would the washer do between the key and the clamp?

Restrorob
05-05-2007, 06:48 PM
There is a washer but it is between the keeper and the clamp - not the keeper and the side of the engine. Where is it supposed to be?

It's supposed to be exactly where you found it, There is not supposed to be a washer between the clip and engine block.

These engines are designed to last only so many hours, There is no telling how many times this engine has been into to prolong it's life. That could account for the grooves worn in the block area and no gasket, In my going on 16yrs next month have I ever seen one worn that bad.

What good would the washer do between the key and the clamp?

Bill, The washer is between the clip and the governor arm-clamp to space it away from the protrusion on the block to prevent it from binding/hanging up.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m314/Restrorob/11HPBriggsGovShft.jpg


There are three fixes for this problem;

1) Take the washer you have to your local hardware store and get a THINNER washer and try to put it between the engine block and clip.

2) use a file, grinder etc. and take enough material off the grooved area of the block to add the THINNER washer between the clip and block.

3) Remove the shaft from the engine then get a 1/4" drive socket that will loosely slide over the bushing on the inside (for sizing only).
Take the shaft with you to your local hardware store when getting the THINNER washer and get a stove bolt (Flat head screw) close to the diameter of the shaft and a half inch or so longer than the shaft with a nut and two flat washers to fit the screw.

Put a washer on the screw then slide the socket on the screw (square drive toward the washer) slide the screw with socket through the bushing from the outside then add the other washer and nut, Center the socket on the screw then while holding the screw head in place tighten the nut 1/8 turn at a time then remove the screw and check for enough room to get the THINNER washer between the clip and block.

What you are doing is sinking/jacking/pressing the bushing deeper into the block, But only go far enough to get the THINNER washer on and have the governor shaft move freely without too much in and out movement once the washer and clip are installed. It shouldn't take much.

One other thing, While your at the hardware store pick up a gallon of mineral spirits and wash that engine out before you put the pan/sump back on !!!

Bill Kapaun
05-05-2007, 07:13 PM
How about JB weld to fill in the grooves?

Restrorob
05-05-2007, 07:28 PM
I did think of that Bill, But with my experience with JB I really don't believe it would last very long with the oil/gas and vibration. Any of the above fixes would last till this long over due thing dies....

hdtvluvr
05-05-2007, 09:06 PM
OK, I ground off some of the block and got a thin washer in place between the keeper and the block. It works smoothly now.

Now to understand how a governor works and follow the directions regarding adjusting the governor that you gave earlier:

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m314/Restrorob/BriggsHeadTorquePattern.jpg?t=1176340115

If you turn the governor crank counter-clockwise, the flat end moves away from the governor cap. It can actually travel further away from the governor/splasher than the cap will extend. If it is further away, how does the cap push on it when the counterweights expand and push the cap out?

It sort of seems that with the throttle wide open, the cap should be touching the governor crank so that it could push the crank.

Please help me understand how this works and actually how to make this adjustment correctly.

I appreciate your assistance. If I don't get this engine running, I have at least learned a lot that will be helpful later.

Restrorob
05-05-2007, 09:38 PM
I apologize for the confusion, I got my clocking mixed up. :hammerhead:

You are indeed correct, When the governor arm is pushed away from the carb to "full" throttle position it rotates the shaft clockwise therefore you want to rotate the shaft clockwise.

Sorry again, I put my pants on like everybody else. http://www.gtr-game.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif

Good Luck Bud

hdtvluvr
05-05-2007, 09:43 PM
So my assumption is correct?

At full throttle, the governor crank should be touching the governor/splasher cap with it at its shortest length.

Thanks again.

Bill Kapaun
05-05-2007, 09:45 PM
Have faith :angel: Don't over think this! I did that on a tiller once and blew it up! Seriously:) -but that's another story.
The governor can be adjusted with the engine assembled, so don't worry about having to take things apart again.
The idle stop screw and linkages will do the job.

One caution I'd suggest. Whenever doing anything to the governor, be ready to hit the kill switch on initial start up-Just in case:)

Restrorob
05-05-2007, 09:55 PM
So my assumption is correct?

Yes, And do as Bill stated (hold the kill switch at first).

hdtvluvr
05-06-2007, 05:51 PM
Just wanted to let everyone know I got the engine back together today. :clapping: I didn't put the deck back on (need to clean it and sharpen/replace the blades). However, I test drove it and it did a lot better on a hill than it has done in the past. I can also see the governor working when I go from slow to fast throttle. It doesn't move much though.

Thanks for everyone's help! :drinkup:

Now I must have the throttle cable set up incorrectly. When set at idle, the engine runs rough and dies. The dashboard lever will not move all the way to the top of the choke setting and any setting below half way from the choke setting causes the engine to die.

Any links on how to do this properly? I purchased a carb rebuild kit when I got the other materials but I didn't install it. I didn't want to throw that into the mix until I was sure the engine would run when I got through with it :laugh:

Restrorob
05-06-2007, 06:04 PM
You need to get the carb. all cleaned and blown out and install the kit making it run right first then worry about the throttle cable adjustment.