PLEASE READ cutntrim's post!!!

[John Deere]

I just want to back up cutntrim's post. I can't tell you how true his statements are. Most importantly - Property Managers! Property Managers can be your best friend or your worst enemy. I can definently name one that falls into the worst enemy categorie. Listen, I definently can sympathize with cutntrim because I know how it feels. One thing that really chaps my ass are all of you low bidders out there. I don't know why it is that most industries have set rates, but why is it that we always seem to get fly by night people who don't have a clue on how to bid and end up hurting everyone. I don't know about your area, but here some people are doing 50,000 sq. ft. lawns for $20 bucks. If you are one of these people you are screwing us and yourself! I've tried not to be to controversial in this forum, but I feel I need to stand up for my industry and my livelihood. Puting all of your eggs in one basket is not a good thing to do, but can't we just get a little bit of commitment and loyalty from these property managers and customers. It can be done, I truly think with being able to share more ideas via internet prices and rates in time could catch on. If all of the bottom feeders out there would grab a clue we could turn things around and all profit and have a less stress free business while making some money without having to always look over your shoulder. I lost a $600 a week acct. earlier this year and was sick about it for a week. I'm tired of that. It's time to make a stand. I also see bickering on this site as well. Why? So what if some people have different ideas than you do. You don't have to damn them for there own ideas. For the most part everyone on this site is very helpful. Let's keep that up and see if we can't get things to change for the better out there in the Green World! Good luck to all of you this season!

[DMC300]

THANK YOU,J.D.AND GOD BLESS!<p>----------<br>DON<br>LIANNES' MOWING

[Currier]

I used to worry about low bidders. This year we bid out a subdivision at a fair price and of course didn't get it. The other day I'm driving by and I see my competition. One guy older truck nice trailer new walker mower. He was throwing himself around behind a faded aerator. we hadn't had rain for a few weeks. The soil is as hard as a rock, and it still gets to freezing at night. He was pulling maybe 1/2 to 1 inch plugs. Wow! what a deal that subdivision got...what a deal this guy got! Hope he can pay for that mower. Actually I got the better deal. He will be so tied up working for an outfit that bought a low baller that he won't have time to get in my way the rest of the year. The sub. will probably continue to have a nasty looking, sick lawn. Odds are it will be up for bid again next year. No thanks....please keep another low baller busy.

[thelawnguy]

Please go into detail about the 600 a week account-what it was, why you think you lost it, what you tried to do to salvage it, what equipment you have and if you know what the competition has.<p>Maybe we can use the info to help keep it from happening again.<p>Bill

[lawrence stone]

Losing a $20k+ job is a big deal. But you got to remember the market. If your are dealing with this corp. that owns these apartment complex you have to remember<br>most people shop on price.<p>In may area these property managers feed on<br>the up and coming lamers in the biz and<br>can force them into bankruptcy.<p>They are constantly change contractors always<br>looking for a better price.<p>I personally stay away from this type work<br>especially the secton 8 ones.<p>Paul from Chicago is right the &quot;real&quot; money<br>in in public sector work. I am going to only <br>concentrate on in the future to find more<br>althetic field work at public school systems.<br>In two years I plan to do this exclusivly<br>and I will sell off all my other commercial<br>and residintial work along with a couple<br>of old mowers.

[PLM 2]

Lawrence; Think about your plan with this information. <br>I have been a licensed landscape maintenance contractor and licensed pest control operator for 28 years. <br>From 1982 to current I have done public works. Federal, State & Municipal. I started doing public works after the building downturn in CA in 1980. <br>I had the same opinion you had. I didn't want to try and collect money from builders or deal with residential & HOA's. <br>Since 1990 the federal government has been moving to sole source contracting. That means that they hire a property management company to run the buildings. These companies handle Janitorial, HVAC, Carpentry, Etc. That company subs out all the work or keeps it in house. So you end up with the same problems as working for a regular property management company. <br>I see this trend moving into the state and municipal areas currently. <br>Also remeber that there can only be so many Government proerties in a given area, so to increase your customer base you have to work in multiple states. Which brings along its on problems. <br>In my humble opininon the best thing to do is have a balance of work including Commercial, Residential and Government. And Residential is almost an unlimted market in a smaller area. Darrell

[SLSNursery]

Stone - <p>Don't forget who pays for the section 8. Its your Uncle, Sam. He pays for the schools and the municipal jobs too. You may put all your eggs in that basket only to find that when the administration changes so do the sub contractors. I have a good mix including schools and municipal work. I always make the most of it, immediately. But, I keep a mix of accounts, and as you probably would surmise, we try not to work for those who pick with price as the main factor. <p>Speaking about price and bids, reminds me that today we were busy pricing stuff. I usually think that if I get between 25-35% of the bids I put out that my price is right. This system works like this - if you get 100% of the jobs your priced too low. Any feedback on this idea? <p>Today we told a guy $3600 for a landscape job that needed about 1000sq. feet of sod, lawn prep, for a total of about $1000-1200 in materials. He said another company bid $1000 total. Next guy jumped on the price for a Harley rake job, no question about the price. My brother priced both jobs, within 5 miles of each other, with the same per hour figures in mind. The second job doesn't even require as many materials. Go figure?!!?! :)<br><p>----------<br>Phil Grande - Soundview Landscape Supply - http://members.aol.com/slsnursery<br>Ivy League Landscaping - http://members.aol.com/scagrider

[paul]

Darrell,<br>That may be for the Federal Gov. but not the local school district or park district, they have control of the money! Those elected people have to write the checks every month. They know that if they have an employee do the work he by law will get a raise evey year, he will have all benefits that the highest paid boss will have. They will also have to pay for manitance on the equipment and replacements as needed. They are looking to get away from this, outsourceing or sub-contracting is a way for us to make money here. They will only hire contractors that have the qualifcation that are needed and insurance and workmans comp. Some will require a bond and maybe a preformance bond.<br>It's work that alot of people don't see and good money to be made.<p>Right now I'm in Fl. at a park safety meeting and I am talking to people from many parts of the country, they are looking for contractors to do this work all the time(if I had enough crews I could send them all over the U.S. doing parks. The lack of contractors bidding these makes me sick, your tax dollars could be going back in your pockets! They have to worry about the play equipment and other areas that you wouldn't see daily reports on the equipment, ADA acsessable, grading the ballfields and a million other things, we can step in here as Mr. Stone has done and make good money! You other guys give it a try!<p>----------<br>paul<br>

[kermit]

Phil' sounds as if your bid to win ratio is about right. I start to worry when I win too many jobs. It means I made a mistake or left money on the table. Bad news either way! I like to keep an eye on the bid/win ratio and when it gets above 3/1 then I know I,m under bidding. I also watch who I am winning/losing bids to. There are lots of companies around here who are more efficient than I am. If I win jobs from them it usually means I've underbid and I'm about to loose some money! When I hear guys say they get 95%of the jobs they bid I figure they're leaving money on the table. I like to see the customer clutch at their chests (but still give me the job) this means I've charged just the right amount. I really hate hearing &quot; oh, is that all it's going to cost?&quot; Good bidding.

[MJM Landscaping Inc]

Paul, Could you give me some info on how to enter this market? Thanks<br>Mark A Musolf

[HOMER]

I sent a bid in today for a large facility. I walked everyu sq. ft of the place and wrote each segment of the operation down and estimated the time it would take to do the job. Got home, tallied everything up, applied a $45.00 per hour price tag, and came up with $745.00 per cut. Again, this is a big place, one of the largest I've bid on yet. I faxed the bid to the man and called him a couple hours later to confirm that he received it. I asked his opinion on the price and he said &quot;kinda high don't you think?&quot; I said it might be higher than the other ones but I guarantee the work will be high quality and everything I put on the proposal would be done to the letter. He commented on how thorough I was, breaking each operation down, and said the other bids he had received had not been as detailed. He is not the decision maker, someone else will do that, so he assured me that he would get back with me when all the bids were sent to the home office.<p>Long story, but the point is, he called me for a bid, he got a bid! I could have easily dropped my price to $25.00 per hour and might have got the project, but who would be hurting in the long run? If I get it, it will be because they feel I was a notch above the rest of the field and are confident the quality will be there. <br>I kicked this around with some others and felt I would just stick to my guns, thats what I did. If someone else can do it cheaper I say go for it, I can't. I won't. I will tell them, if I don't get it, to keep me in mind when the other guy bails out because he probably won't have the equipment to do this large area, will tie up 2 days of his time, and will lose his ass in the process.<p>Take it or leave it, thats my new attitude! I have reached a point, finally, that I don't have to beg for work and won't rely on one contract to get me by. For all you guys just starting out, please stick to your guns! It's going to take time to build your business to the point where you can pick and choose but if you get into the practice of doing it now you can save yourself a lot of headaches down the road. Set high standards for yourself. Let each bid be well thought out. I would rather have 50 accounts to maintain and make $50,000 than have 120 and make $50,000.00 I know a guy who made $90,000 last year. He stays broke all the time. Reason is he's running his ass off to make it. Get enough out of each account to <p>1. sustain<br>2. grow<br>3. replace<br>4. add<br>5. repair<br>6. save<p>We could talk all day long about unity, togetherness, price fixing, collusion, and partnerships, but the fact of the matter is this is as cut throat a business as there ever was. No matter what somebody says they will do for you or say to your face, chances are the opposite will happen. I do not discuss with anybody (local, not cyber) my prices for my accounts, thats my business. I can say with much pride that I am supporting a family of 5, along with a mini zoo! I am the bread winner. Take the time to build it right. I have a long way to go and that will involve culling some of the less profitable accounts and replacing them with better paying ones, but that can happen from ground zero. Set a goal and don't veer off course, it's too easy to lose the coordinates once you do that.<p>Nuff said, I guess. When I think of something else I'll be sure to let ya'll know!!!<p>Homer