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BSME
04-12-2007, 07:32 PM
Can someone (I'm guessing boots) explain this to me... How is it that everyone seems to be able to make an exact copy of what Hunter is doing?

Has it been mentioned here before about the Irritrol rotor I saw today? the guts are interchanable? the cap is exactly the same. They use the same tool to adjust. Seems like bad news for the pgp

Mike Leary
04-12-2007, 08:14 PM
Boots will know; what I know is........I-20 ultra stainless, Toro "stream-
rotor", Rain-Bird "T-Bird" (no longer made).

Wet_Boots
04-12-2007, 08:29 PM
You know you can remove the guts of a Toro Super700 and thread in into a Hunter body? I think a lot of basic patents have expired by now. I'll buy a PGP because the guys who make it have a track record of reliability, not because no one else can offer an identical product.

Clock Doc
04-12-2007, 09:09 PM
:cool2:

Actually, Hunter did the original "copying". The actual patent for the top adjustment on the PGP is held by KRain. KRain gets a royalty for every PGP sold. Only certain things can be patented, and you cannot patent things like thread patterns, etc. therefore, any company can make what they want, to a point ie. Rainbird sells just the drive assembly that fits in the PGP case. I suppose Hunter should be smiling though, since it is the number one seller and everyone is trying to copy it !! Nelson now has a 6100 that is a PGP knock-off. Personally, I still buy PGPs, can't beat the price.

DanaMac
04-12-2007, 10:16 PM
:cool2:
Personally, I still buy PGPs, can't beat the price.

Yes you can beat the price. I can get RB 5004s for $7 each, compared to $8-$9 for the PGP. What you can't beat is the reliability of the PGP

irrig8r
04-12-2007, 10:55 PM
:cool2:

Actually, Hunter did the original "copying". The actual patent for the top adjustment on the PGP is held by KRain. KRain gets a royalty for every PGP sold.

He's right you know!


Found another "Hunter rip-off" controller besides the Irrigation Direct the other day... it's called the Rain Pro and sold by Hit Products. Looks very similar...not sure how the features or price compare...

http://www.hitproductscorp.com/PDF/Rain%20Pro-M.pdf

But remember... anybody making a modular controller either pays a royalty to Toro, or has an expensive court fight on their hands... at least that's the rumor I heard... :rolleyes:

bicmudpuppy
04-12-2007, 11:41 PM
:cool2:

Actually, Hunter did the original "copying". The actual patent for the top adjustment on the PGP is held by KRain. KRain gets a royalty for every PGP sold. Only certain things can be patented, and you cannot patent things like thread patterns, etc. therefore, any company can make what they want, to a point ie. Rainbird sells just the drive assembly that fits in the PGP case. I suppose Hunter should be smiling though, since it is the number one seller and everyone is trying to copy it !! Nelson now has a 6100 that is a PGP knock-off. Personally, I still buy PGPs, can't beat the price.

Actually, Dr. "K" gets the royalty and just happens to own K-Rain (or does he still?). K-rain has nothing to do with the patents hunter uses. Dr. "K" has LOTS to do with it. And, I'll never remember or spell what the K stands for :)

Wet_Boots
04-13-2007, 03:41 AM
Carl L.C. Kah, Jr.

Mjtrole
04-13-2007, 01:17 PM
"All a patent really does is give the patent-holder the right to stop others from producing, selling or using his or her invention. For the life of the patent (20 years in the United States), patent-holders can profit from their inventions by going into business for themselves or licensing the use of their invention to other companies. It is up to the patent-holder to actually enforce the patent" taken from howstuffworks.com

I think there are some other "life" limits on certain patents, take nextel for example their patent expired a couple years ago for the two way patent and every other company could use the technology or "idea" but not during the life of the patent, which who knows how long that was.

according to krains website they currently lease the "reverse mechanism" patent to hunter but that's it.

Remote Pigtails
04-13-2007, 07:42 PM
As a loyal PGP user I just bought a case of RB 5000s on sale at a supply house luncheon. Know nothing about them. Any predictions on whether I'll like them or not? Don't get delivery for another week or so.

BSME
04-13-2007, 08:18 PM
I predict you will like the rain curtain nozzles but dislike the way they adjust

Mike Leary
04-13-2007, 08:40 PM
I predict you will like the rain curtain nozzles but dislike the way they adjust

We've tried rain curtains on 6" pops: on a flat plane they work great.

Flow Control
04-13-2007, 09:51 PM
:cool2:

KRain gets a royalty for every PGP sold.

I was wondering how they stayed in business :laugh: :laugh:

PurpHaze
04-14-2007, 01:55 AM
As a loyal PGP user I just bought a case of RB 5000s on sale at a supply house luncheon. Know nothing about them. Any predictions on whether I'll like them or not? Don't get delivery for another week or so.

I went to a Ewing BBQ today and walked away with a new Hunter ACC controller, four extra modules, two bags of Hunter Micro-Spray nozzles and ordered an ACC high density plastic pedestal for an upcoming project to the tune of $1800. :)

DarkLotus
04-14-2007, 07:40 AM
Has anyone tried the Irritrol 450R's yet? They are an exact match of the PGP. You can swap the guts out of the 2 and have them work, and the nozzles are interchangeable too.

Remote Pigtails
04-14-2007, 09:01 AM
I went to a Ewing BBQ today and walked away with a new Hunter ACC controller, four extra modules, two bags of Hunter Micro-Spray nozzles and ordered an ACC high density plastic pedestal for an upcoming project to the tune of $1800. :)

They really get you at those lunches. I paid 5.40ea for the rotors so it seemed like a no brainer purchase. We had burgers and chips. I also went down to Ewing and purchased 300.00 worth of MP Rotators to experiment with.

Remote Pigtails
04-14-2007, 09:04 AM
Has anyone tried the Irritrol 450R's yet? They are an exact match of the PGP. You can swap the guts out of the 2 and have them work, and the nozzles are interchangeable too.

Not being pushed around here yet. I'll look for them and give an opinion. Irritrol seems kind of quiet lately.

PurpHaze
04-14-2007, 12:19 PM
They really get you at those lunches. I paid 5.40ea for the rotors so it seemed like a no brainer purchase. We had burgers and chips. I also went down to Ewing and purchased 300.00 worth of MP Rotators to experiment with.

We had BBQ beef strips to make fajitas or burritos out of; rice and beans and all the fixin's. I already knew what I needed so we combined the business and pleasure part of it.

Mike Leary
04-14-2007, 12:48 PM
They really get you at those lunches. I paid 5.40ea for the rotors so it seemed like a no brainer purchase. We had burgers and chips. I also went down to Ewing and purchased 300.00 worth of MP Rotators to experiment with.

I'm sure you'll like the MP Rotators...we've been VERY unhappy with the
1000 series & strip-sprays tho.

Remote Pigtails
04-14-2007, 12:58 PM
I'm sure you'll like the MP Rotators...we've been VERY unhappy with the
1000 series & strip-sprays tho.

I'm focusing on the 2000 series as a replacement for those older 20' spacing brass nozzle systems. I like the RB rotators but they don't have a strip and can't be adjusted. (That may be a good thing) I guess I'm not surprised to hear the strip isn't too hot. Common sense tells me that would be an extremely difficult pattern to achieve with this type of spray. I'll give my 2 cents worth after I try them out.

Mike Leary
04-14-2007, 01:14 PM
I'm focusing on the 2000 series as a replacement for those older 20' spacing brass nozzle systems. I like the RB rotators but they don't have a strip and can't be adjusted. (That may be a good thing) I guess I'm not surprised to hear the strip isn't too hot. Common sense tells me that would be an extremely difficult pattern to achieve with this type of spray. I'll give my 2 cents worth after I try them out.

They seem to like pressure, as do Stream-Rotors. I'd like 50psi @ the
head for both, which you should get when you retro the brass zones.

Keith
04-14-2007, 02:37 PM
Has anyone tried the Irritrol 450R's yet? They are an exact match of the PGP. You can swap the guts out of the 2 and have them work, and the nozzles are interchangeable too.

I haven't seen them in person, so I went to their site to take a look. I can't tell 100% from the pictures, but I think it's a K Rain RPS75 in disguise. The adjustment tool they show in one of the PDF's is a dead ringer for the one that comes with the RPS. The nozzle performance charts looks the same. And the Irritrol CR500 is a K Rain Pro Plus, so this would make complete sense. If this is the case, I think they are a decent piece. I have only used a few cases of the RPS75's in the past 12 months, but so far no complaints. Good price, good warranty. Of course, I have no idea if the Irritrol carries the same warranty.

Keith
04-14-2007, 02:49 PM
I'm sure you'll like the MP Rotators...we've been VERY unhappy with the
1000 series & strip-sprays tho.

What issues have you had with the 1000 series? Just curious. My local suppliers don't carry MP Rotators, so I bought a few last spring from a dealer out of town to keep in the box and to experiment with one day. My main reason for buying them was to try them on those all to common existing systems with rotors and sprays on the same zone.

PurpHaze
04-14-2007, 02:56 PM
I have found that the 1000s and strips probably don't throw as far as noted in the charts. On the one narrow area we've retrofitted them into we have them closer than suggested so I'm hoping for decent coverage. I'll know more when the heat comes on and report back.

Keith
04-14-2007, 03:31 PM
I kind of wondered if that is what I was going to hear. I tried a grand total of 2 of the MP 1000's I bought last year, both 360 degree models. They had absolutely no distance on them at all. I had to go back and check the chart again to make sure I had not purchased something else. If these things had more than 5 feet of radius, I'd eat my shoe. I pulled one off, tried the other, then put a RB 12F spray back on and went on my way.

The rest of the Rotators have set in one of the Noz Boxes since. I debated putting them on Ebay, but I could not bring myself to do it with a clear conscience. I finally put a couple of the 90-210 MP 1000's in my garden the other night and they seem to work flawlessly. They hold a perfect arc and met the radius advertised.

Mike Leary
04-14-2007, 06:14 PM
The MPs like pressure...low precip. yass..pressure 'em up! Kill 1000 & strips.

Remote Pigtails
04-14-2007, 10:07 PM
Well I took one of my zones and switched it to MP rotators. This was ten brass nozzles at 18' spacing. Running at 21.5 gpm. I used the 2000 series and the distance looks accurate. The zone is now running at 7.75 gpm. I changed my smartline on that zone from spray to .4" per hour. The RB rotaries run at about .65" per hour and you can really see the difference. The MPs also have a higher arc and move slower. The RBs are definitely more fun to watch. The pattern adjustment on the MP is nice because you don't have to buy so many types. The SS are terrible. I thought it was defective at first and tried another. Same spray. Too little on one side and too much on the other. It also sprays behind itself. Right now I'm sticking to the RBs. They cost a buck less and I think they will go over better with the customers.

bicmudpuppy
04-14-2007, 11:29 PM
I haven't seen them in person, so I went to their site to take a look. I can't tell 100% from the pictures, but I think it's a K Rain RPS75 in disguise. The adjustment tool they show in one of the PDF's is a dead ringer for the one that comes with the RPS. The nozzle performance charts looks the same. And the Irritrol CR500 is a K Rain Pro Plus, so this would make complete sense. If this is the case, I think they are a decent piece. I have only used a few cases of the RPS75's in the past 12 months, but so far no complaints. Good price, good warranty. Of course, I have no idea if the Irritrol carries the same warranty.

I would say that the opposite way, the K-rain is a copy of the CR500. The Toro S800 is identical to the CR500 w/ a toro top. The nozzles are the same, but I used some K-rains out of Saturday necesity ONCE. I replaced them all within a week. Bad seals, didn't turn, etc. but, they came from the orange store. I think the CR500 will prove to be as reliable in the long term as the PGP. Proving that is going to take a very long time. I think the patern, low pressure performance, and the 5" pop-up all out perform the PGP. I LOVE the slip clutch so you get a full circle head instead of a return head. Will that extra clutch hold up over 30 years? time will tell. In another thread, pop-up height was talked about. I don't know if I advocate 6" pops in turf, but getting to 4 or 5" really helps if your mowing tall turf.

I think our niche for irrigation has evolved. 20 years ago, sprinklers were a luxury and you worked for the people who could afford them and the water. Today, I advocate a lot of sprinklers to people to actually save them money. A system that is used a bare minimum to keep turf alive and healthy will pay for itself in 3-5 years. The savings are from either not watering in-efficiently with hoses or from not having to completely re-seed a dead lawn in the fall because you didn't water. These lawns are mowed at 3-4" and only watered once a week for 6-8 weeks out of the year. The $5000 irrigation system waters a lawn that would cost between $2,000 and $2500 to renovate in the fall. Subtract the cost of the water used and maint, and you still pay for that system in 3-4 years.

I still prefer to work for the customer who has his lawn mowed at 2" year round. Pays to have it cut 2x/week in the spring and fall and can afford to water 2" a week in the heat of the summer. Those customers are not prevalent enough to make a living in today competitive markets.

On a side note, I noticed (and hadn't paid that much attention in the past) most of my golf heads pop-up less than 3". But, they are watering turf less than an inch high too :)
:drinkup:

Dirty Water
04-14-2007, 11:38 PM
On a side note, I noticed (and hadn't paid that much attention in the past) most of my golf heads pop-up less than 3". But, they are watering turf less than an inch high too :)
:drinkup:


The angle of the spray would be a factor here.

Also would be the turf damage directly around the head that I've seen with high pressure, low popup heads such as those.

Keith
04-15-2007, 12:38 AM
I would say that the opposite way, the K-rain is a copy of the CR500. The Toro S800 is identical to the CR500 w/ a toro top. The nozzles are the same, but I used some K-rains out of Saturday necesity ONCE. I replaced them all within a week. Bad seals, didn't turn, etc. but, they came from the orange store. I think the CR500 will prove to be as reliable in the long term as the PGP. Proving that is going to take a very long time. I think the patern, low pressure performance, and the 5" pop-up all out perform the PGP. I LOVE the slip clutch so you get a full circle head instead of a return head. Will that extra clutch hold up over 30 years? time will tell.

I've been using K Rain Pro Plus rotors for, ahh, maybe about 6 or 7 years. I started using them when my distributor had them "buy a case, get a case free." The gimmick worked. With the warranty and pop height, I started using them 90% of the time. Let me assure you, they are not the same as the K2 big Orange sells. They have been very reliable for us, as their counterpart the CR500 is. We'll have to agree to disagree though, I think the Pro Plus came first :drinkup:

LCPullman
04-15-2007, 12:52 AM
I would say that the opposite way, the K-rain is a copy of the CR500. The Toro S800 is identical to the CR500 w/ a toro top. The nozzles are the same, but I used some K-rains out of Saturday necesity ONCE. I replaced them all within a week. Bad seals, didn't turn, etc. but, they came from the orange store. I think the CR500 will prove to be as reliable in the long term as the PGP. Proving that is going to take a very long time. I think the patern, low pressure performance, and the 5" pop-up all out perform the PGP. I LOVE the slip clutch so you get a full circle head instead of a return head. Will that extra clutch hold up over 30 years? time will tell. In another thread, pop-up height was talked about. I don't know if I advocate 6" pops in turf, but getting to 4 or 5" really helps if your mowing tall turf.


From what I've heard, the K-Rain designed the Pro Plus. K-Rain of course has the rights to the reversing mechanism in the Pro Plus and I presume in the others too. I don't know whether they could have designed it in conjunction with Toro/Irritrol or if Toro/Irritrol jumped on the wagon later.
I Like the 5" pop on these models, gives you and extra 3/4 of an inch or so over the Hunter/RB 4" pops.

By the way, no comparison between the professional K-Rains and the cheap ones from the orange store.

bicmudpuppy
04-15-2007, 08:38 AM
By the way, no comparison between the professional K-Rains and the cheap ones from the orange store.

Never been in a market where the Profesional K-Rain product was available. That reversing mechanism we are giving K-rain credit for is the same one we started talking about earlier in this thread that makes that old favorite, the PGP work too. I do know which one of them came first :) The CR500 replaced the XL in the Irritrol line. I can't say for sure, but I think I saw my first CR500 and the last of the XL's right around 2000/2001.

LCPullman
04-15-2007, 12:41 PM
That reversing mechanism we are giving K-rain credit for is the same one we started talking about earlier in this thread that makes that old favorite, the PGP work too.

Yep, I've been inside the PGP and ProPlus and the reversing mechanism is identical.