Do any of you New Jersey guys install pavers?

[jerryo]

Curious to see if Im under bidding. I used to charge $10 a sq ft. for patios, and walkway's, and $14 for steps. Lately their hasn't been much work, I hope this will begin to change. I feel if I keep charging $9 or $8 Im in trouble, unless it's a really big job. Word on the street is N.Y. paving contractors are getting $18 a sq. ft. can any of you support this?

[ed2hess]

Might try opening a thread in the Hardscape forum...

[mrusk]

uhhhhh

No one can tell you waht to charge. Everyone has different operating expenses and different slary requirments.


Your first mistake is charging by the square foot. Every job is different. You need to charge more per a sq on a walkway than a patio. IN MOST CASES.

[LB1234]

Agree with Mrusk.

I don't charge by the sqaure foot but what I'll do after the proposal is calculated is figure out what the per sqft price is. The lowest I can go with the least costly of pavers is in the 15-20 per square range. I'm working on onhe tonight that comes out to 17 and change.

Don't take any offence but I'm probablly losing jobs to you and/or others that charge less. But hey if you or anyone else can do it for that price all the power to ya. I can't, I'd rather not have any work that work to lose money...whats the point?

Plus, if I were to go down to 10 per sqft I'd have to skip a major portion of the project...like the base. Again, I don't charge by that method but it is a way to compare pricing...assuming all other factors are the same...i.e. base depth, restraint, etc.

[PatriotLandscape]

I would rather lose a job to a low bidder than be the low bidder without a clue as to how to make money constructing a job.

[ACutAbovesiny]

LB1234 hit it right on the head. You can give the customer a price per sq ft but only after you figure your man hr rate, material cost, difficulty of job, sight specifications, and of course your operating costs. You may see that you need $10 per sqft just to break even...which is about fair to say for standard patios.

Every company is different so dont price your jobs on what others are charging, that would be a recipe for failure.

[shovelracer]

As mentioned it can depend on the job. $10 is OK for some, not enough for others. In northern NJ the lowest I can go is $9.50/ft2. That is for a standard walk, with no fancy patterns, or extras. Gives me a profit of a few bucks per ft. On the otherside I can go $20 / ft as well if I need to do a lot of excavating, material removal, edging, etc. Basically I try to keep my price for the install around 10-11/ft but that is just for the install. I charge extra for removal, special edging, lawn, plants, etc. and so on. To give you an idea, the pics are from a job that was 4600 just for the install, additional 800 to remove the old slate, and additional 1600 for the mulch. My profit from the install alone was around 1500 after I paid my guys. Walkway was about 390 / ft2. We completed the job in 2 days.


http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/shovelracer/10-24-06019.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/shovelracer/10-24-06017.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/shovelracer/10-24-06020.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/shovelracer/10-24-06023.jpg

[ChampionLS]

Most of our installations, when converted to SQ. FT. are between $9 and $12 PSF. It really depends on what equipment you own, logistics and how skilled and productive your workers are. I see a lot of other contractors out there using inadequate tools, and poor construction techniques. If you modernize your equipment, you'll pick up the pace and that saves money. 95% of the time we have Midco drop a container off for disposal. That saves the most time on the jobsite and we dont' beat up our trucks.

[Drafto]

I could do sliver cuts and 3' paths for main entrances all day for $10/sf. I would just tell the homeowners, hey, I can get you down to $4,600 but your company will have to walk single file to your front door. BUT, on the way they can stop and enjoy this 18" diameter circle one at a time, unless of course, they want to stand in the grass and look at it together.

Dude, seriously, north jersey, if you are less than $15/sf you are giving money away. But you'll keep turning out poorly designed junk like that with the sliver cuts and you will be gone in 3 years once you realize $10/sf on a walkway is bad business...................but hey what do I know I live in Delaware.

Dan

[mrusk]

As mentioned it can depend on the job. $10 is OK for some, not enough for others. In northern NJ the lowest I can go is $9.50/ft2. That is for a standard walk, with no fancy patterns, or extras. Gives me a profit of a few bucks per ft. On the otherside I can go $20 / ft as well if I need to do a lot of excavating, material removal, edging, etc. Basically I try to keep my price for the install around 10-11/ft but that is just for the install. I charge extra for removal, special edging, lawn, plants, etc. and so on. To give you an idea, the pics are from a job that was 4600 just for the install, additional 800 to remove the old slate, and additional 1600 for the mulch. My profit from the install alone was around 1500 after I paid my guys. Walkway was about 390 / ft2. We completed the job in 2 days.


http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/shovelracer/10-24-06019.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/shovelracer/10-24-06017.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/shovelracer/10-24-06020.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/shovelracer/10-24-06023.jpg



Walkway does look bad.

Heck if the walkway is narrow like that, it should be more per a square foot than a wider walk.

I think i know where that house is.

I am in the same exact county as you. I do not think their is anyone that is installing pavers for 9.50 a square that isn't a lawn guy trying to be a hardscaper. 10/11 for A SQUARE FOOT? Extra for special edging? What type of special edging, or do you mean to add any edging at all?

Honestly, its guys like you, doing work like that, that is hurting this industry. I would not even go out on that estimate for a walk like that. The reason for that it will turn into a complete circus.


The only thing that i would even consider laying for close to 10 bucks a square would be a large driveway.

And on a house that size, i would not install a walkway less then 5 feet wide. Don't tell me "Its what the client wanted" If the client wants something that is ridicoulous and will not look good, i won't do it. I am a professional and am only interested in doing professional jobs.

[LB1234]

Well I'm going to place my flak vest on and be ready to take some fire.

I just met with a client on Friday and he wanted a 2' wide walk. After about 10 minutes of explaining what it would look like and attempting to steer him away from it I got him to go to 3'. Granted, its not something I would do for my walk and I don't recommend it. I like a 42-48" wide walk so guests can walk up to the house side by side not one behind the other. However, I do believe a 3' walk is adequate.

However, it seems as if everyone is suggesting that I just tell the customer that I can't help them cause I'll only go 48" wide (or whatever). Doesn't the customer have any say? I mean if thats what they want thats what they want.

Now, lets not confuse the look of the walk with the requirements of the walkway. I'm not suggesting if the homeowner says 'I don't want a base' or 'I only want my base to be 2" thick' that I just say okay and do it and take some money off the bid. I'm simply referring to the look of the walk. AND, IMHO 3' is not awful as everyone else is making it out to be.

Just looking for some opinions, comments, and thoughts.

[Drafto]

Well I'm going to place my flak vest on and be ready to take some fire.

I just met with a client on Friday and he wanted a 2' wide walk. After about 10 minutes of explaining what it would look like and attempting to steer him away from it I got him to go to 3'. Granted, its not something I would do for my walk and I don't recommend it. I like a 42-48" wide walk so guests can walk up to the house side by side not one behind the other. However, I do believe a 3' walk is adequate.

However, it seems as if everyone is suggesting that I just tell the customer that I can't help them cause I'll only go 48" wide (or whatever). Doesn't the customer have any say? I mean if thats what they want thats what they want.

Now, lets not confuse the look of the walk with the requirements of the walkway. I'm not suggesting if the homeowner says 'I don't want a base' or 'I only want my base to be 2" thick' that I just say okay and do it and take some money off the bid. I'm simply referring to the look of the walk. AND, IMHO 3' is not awful as everyone else is making it out to be.

Just looking for some opinions, comments, and thoughts.

If the homeowner wants a path (3') then give him a path, but if they are doing a front walk shouldn't you, as a professional, know the inevitable results? Would you like to take prospective customers to this house and show them this 3' walk and act like it looks functional and good? No.

I would almost compare these situations to allowing a customer to beat you down on your price. You need the work so you compromise something, I am not saying it is right or wrong. I guess if you have a customer that wants you to put lions heads on top of 6' pillars in front of a $150,000 home it would be the same thing, thats all I am saying.

Dan

[shovelracer]

OK I'll play. What specifically looks so bad about the walkway? I get that the colors are a little off in the pic, but that was cleaned up after it was taken. As far as the shape there where a few things that influenced that.

1) That is what the home owner wanted. That is what he got 2) The plants were already there, and removing or encroaching them was not an option. 3) The town zoning board felt like being tough that week and any extra impervious coverage would have needed their approval and the homeowner didn't want to wait. 4) There was a small window of opportunity cause of a graduation party or something.

Mr. Rusk - I will have you know that I have been laying for 11 years and on my own for 4. My work is quality. I have never once had to repair a walk and the ones I did years ago are still level and true. Sure there is always more to learn, but my work is nothing like the poor garbage I see happen everyday. When you see a 2 week old walk sinking or a drive on a million dollar home heaving you can guarantee I didn't have anything to do with it. As far as the edging. All our work is edged, but sometimes a client will want something different like cobble or whatever. That is what I meant. I take your comment as a personal attack, when all you had to do was make a suggestion. We cant all be million dollar companies sending our illegals out to do 100K jobs. Go look at my walk and look at every other on the street. There must be a reason why the neighbors love my work. I have made a good company for myself and am able to keep my costs down by being the size I am. Don't blame me cause everyone else feels they need 10 - 70K trucks and 6 man crews to do the same job. Telling people what they want doesn't go to far when they have to write the check. Give them what they want while making suggestions and you will keep a client forever. That is of course unless they are paying you to make that decision, then you get more money.

I'm sorry you all feel my work is garbage. I'll admit I'm not the best, but I don't claim to be. I was just trying to put a picture to the explanation. I will say that we are here to stay. My work is not garbage, those pics where not my greatest masterpiece, but I am not ashamed of it either. I am proud of every job I do and stand tall behind my work. My company has a great reputation and we will always continue to grow. I am welcome to any suggestions, but telling me my work is bad because it isn't a 3 mile driveway or a 6 foot wide walk means nothing to me. Issues like that house were created from day one when some overpaid Landscape Architect drew up the plans then hired some million dollar company to do the work, but they wound up getting garbage done cheaply by illegals with no supervision.

[mrusk]

The walk looksout of place being so small. I take my work seriously. There is nothing, and i mean NOTHING more important than the intergity of the project. If the customer did not want to go for a wider walk, i would of walked. I would not want my name on something that is not practical.

My main gripe with you is the 10 dollars a square foot. I am a small company. Me and 2 guys. 1 skid steer, 1 truck. I can not lay pavers for 10 bucks a square foot and make money. I am good at what i do. You either have no idea what 'profit' is or like to eat pork and beans every night. Profit is not wants left over when a job is finished after you pay the guys and material.

I did my first couple walks when i started in business and lost my arse doing work at 10 a square. Now i get twice that.

My typical walkway job this year should hit right around 10k. Around 7500 for the walk, 1000 to deal with the gutter down spouts, and 1500ish to deal with the ugly concrete stoop most houses have.


Anyways, my gripes with your walk is its to narrow, modified herringbone is so 4 years ago, bond lines could be more straight, and the small circle is ridicoulous. Oh yea the wedgies are a big no no.

I acctually like the fence idea.

Anyways, since we proably live 15 minutes from each other we should met up one day and have lunch. In person i am acctually a nice guy!

[shovelracer]

I'm sure your a great guy. And you must be doing something right since you've been around since I can remember. And yes most people wouldnt touch the walk since it wasnt 5 feet wide. And others wanted to move the bed and add thousands to the cost. I was willing to remove the existing walk and put down a better looking walk in its place. Nothing more, done quick and proper, in and out, everyone was happy. I dont feel that a 5 foot walk in that particular setting would have been any better. And it would have put the job out of the customers price range to do anything different. We both know that the majority of these homeowners can barely make their monthy payments let alone spend cash to upkeep their yard. The $10 was a rough number and that was not a $10 walk. It was about $13.80 from start to finish. Which I'm sure is low for some, but it didnt require any special equipment or labor and half the work was done. I know what it is like to lose my butt on a job and this wasnt one of them. Besides that any small discount I may have given has been greatly repaid with use of other services. I don't mean any harm to anyone, and I definitely don't believe in bashing other companies to get work. If I see you around I will stop and say hi since its always nice to increase your network. But I think we can both agree that there are bigger fish out there than us, and the poor quality that has been popping up in sussex the last few years has to stop. I just hope non of you think I'm one of them.

[LB1234]

If the homeowner wants a path (3') then give him a path, but if they are doing a front walk shouldn't you, as a professional, know the inevitable results? Would you like to take prospective customers to this house and show them this 3' walk and act like it looks functional and good? No.

I would almost compare these situations to allowing a customer to beat you down on your price. You need the work so you compromise something, I am not saying it is right or wrong. I guess if you have a customer that wants you to put lions heads on top of 6' pillars in front of a $150,000 home it would be the same thing, thats all I am saying.

Dan

Why would I take a potential customer to this house? I'm just saying that it can be done. I mentioned nothing about taking it out of desperation or anything like that. I just don't see where there is a universal guide that states that 4', 5', 2'...whatever is a 'standard' walkway. Look at city sidewalks...

[bigviclbi]

If I can make $ on a job, and the customer is ok to deal with, then why not do a job? Makes no sense to me. Yes, if it was something outlandish or cutting corners I'd see a problem with it, but many of us have multiple employees that need work. I think some people here might not need steady work for their guys, but i know that my guys love to work. Some jobs the profit margin may not be as high, but true profit is true profit. And just because your company can't make money on a certain size job for a certain price doesn't mean someone else can't. I have done jobs that I wouldn't take customers to see, but they were still done correctly. Shovelracer, the slivers are definately a no-no, but keep looking at others work on the site and you will get a better feel for what some of us consider "true" professional hardscaping. Must be tax season with all this negativity:)

[mrusk]

I do not know what got it to me, but after sitting around all winter i total changed my business game plan. I decided i would not take any bull schit jobs this year. In the past i always ran around like crazy on a ton of estimates. Well this year i decided to be very selective on what jobs i go out on. I ask a ton of questions. If someone wants a walk way but they want to do their own plantings, i'll pass. Someone wants a 2x10 ft walk done, i'll pass.

Then i take the good leads and put together one of those HGTV landscapers challenge presentations. My closing rate is through the roof. The jobs i get are quality jobs at quality prices.

Now it takes time to put together a good presentation. But this year i have went went on maybe 20% as many estimates as this time last year. Yet i have signed more work then all of last year already.

I have figured out what i am good at and decided to just do that. If the job is not right, i will not take it.

Matt

[Lewi927]

Since I don't know a lot about doing stonework and I'd like to learn, what would you have done differently instead of the wedges to create the curves without large gaps? Also, the half-circle comes as a kit from the factory correct?

[ChampionLS]

Everything... I mean EVERYTHING is about Geometry. The better you are in math and planning your layout, the better your overall finished work will be. Cutting "Wedges" takes time. SO WHY not just cut the dam paver and do it right? Everybody always thinks..."Ohh I cant cut a piece off the paver.. I have to ADD a slice" WRONG!!

To make a radius, you need to trim off an even amount of each paver, until your work runs straight again. People are in a rush, or have un-skilled help and do minimal cutting. It's the finished look that defines the skill of the contractor. Paths and soldier courses should be straight as an arrow, flowing into graceful curves of equal symmetry.

In order to do good work, you need good tools. You can't cut 10 holland/brickstone pavers or 6x9's evenly without a table saw, so that leads to a crappy layout. Just as if you were doing woodworking, a chainsaw is not going to cut precision like a table saw will.

There's even more to that. Pulling string lines and always checking for straightness is important. I've seen guys put pavers down and constantly pinch bedding sand between each one, and never realized thats why the whole thing was off.

Go back and look at my thread on "hiring a plumber to do your hardscape" It doesn't get any worse than what this BOZO lady paid her plumber to do!!
http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=175869

If your really into learning the right way, take an ICPI course, or at least, read all their bulletins and tech-specs on planning, layout and installation.

[ChampionLS]

Now if anybody wants to see who really mastered the art of paver laying, I hand the award to Giuseppe Abbrancati from Gappsi paving www.gappsi.com

This man is a true Artisan! "wheres the slivers"??? What do you think he gets PSF?

His photos speak volumes.

Nuff said.

[bigviclbi]

Thats some nice stuff.

[Lewi927]

Thanks. What do you mean by and ICPI course and where might I find one?

[ChampionLS]

check it out

www.icpi.org

They teach classes on paver installation and a whole lot more. You'll need to find a seminar in your area.