PDA

View Full Version : minnesota, when to apply Pre-em for crabgrass?


Bluffman
04-19-2007, 06:06 AM
Too early still or am I ready here in SW metro area?

RigglePLC
04-19-2007, 08:16 AM
In Minnesota--apply pre-em now, April 19. On the other hand Scotts suggests between the 2nd and fifth mowing. We like to get ours on before the air temp hits 80.

MnLefty
04-19-2007, 05:34 PM
It's time. Too early was 3 weeks ago when it got warm for a few days.

Laurentian
04-22-2007, 08:52 PM
I always heard to go by soil temp and not the calendar. Usually wait until the soil temp reaches 55 degrees for cool season grasses.

LwnmwrMan22
04-22-2007, 10:44 PM
Get a soil thermometer, or stop by a local Lesco, they'll post the morning's soil temp.

Friday I was in at mine, and the temp was 42, that was in White Bear Lake.

Temps next week are highs in upper 50's to low 60's, lows around 40.

You're not late, that's for dang sure.

I'd even say you're still a little early.

I've been doing some here and there, but it's the ones that I know I don't have a problem with, that the customer is paying to have an application done, soo......

I know, I know.. if there's no problem, then why apply at all. Sometimes the customer wants piece of mind.

mnturfmaster
04-25-2007, 09:22 PM
Get a soil thermometer, or stop by a local Lesco, they'll post the morning's soil temp.

Friday I was in at mine, and the temp was 42, that was in White Bear Lake.

Temps next week are highs in upper 50's to low 60's, lows around 40.

You're not late, that's for dang sure.

I'd even say you're still a little early.

I've been doing some here and there, but it's the ones that I know I don't have a problem with, that the customer is paying to have an application done, soo......

I know, I know.. if there's no problem, then why apply at all. Sometimes the customer wants piece of mind.

we started pre-emergents a week ago today(wednesday). took soil temps today and they were at 56 degrees in st. louis park. temps getting up into the 80's starting sunday and going into late next week. if i were you, i would get that stuff down soon.

LwnmwrMan22
04-26-2007, 12:43 AM
we started pre-emergents a week ago today(wednesday). took soil temps today and they were at 56 degrees in st. louis park. temps getting up into the 80's starting sunday and going into late next week. if i were you, i would get that stuff down soon.

Soil temps on the east / north side this morning were at 49-52 degrees.

timturf
04-27-2007, 11:24 PM
QUESTION,

At what depth are you taking the soil temps?

At what time of the day are you reading the soil temps

What is the soil temp required for crabgrass germination?

For how many days?

What is the soil temp required for goosegrass germination?, I realize that's not a concern in mn.

Matt, Wonder what the response's will be from the Mn guys

LwnmwrMan22
04-27-2007, 11:36 PM
QUESTION,

At what depth are you taking the soil temps?

At what time of the day are you reading the soil temps

What is the soil temp required for crabgrass germination?

For how many days?

What is the soil temp required for goosegrass germination?, I realize that's not a concern in mn.

Matt, Wonder what the response's will be from the Mn guys

1. 3"

2. Sunrise

3. 55 degrees

4. 3 days

5. N/A :D

Do I pass???

timturf
04-27-2007, 11:40 PM
What do you guys think. Did he pass?

Where are you located compared to Minn/st paul area?

LwnmwrMan22
04-27-2007, 11:45 PM
What do you guys think. Did he pass?

Where are you located compared to Minn/st paul area?

I'm about 30 miles north of St. Paul.

RAlmaroad
04-28-2007, 07:09 PM
Here in TN, we apply pre-em when the forsithia (yellow bush) are in bloom. Generally that will fit in with the 55 degree soil temp and air temps as well. And just a little bit before any greenup. Never had the luxery of a soil thermometer

sclawndr
04-28-2007, 08:03 PM
Too early still or am I ready here in SW metro area?


Umm, what else would you be applying at this time of year? It's only too early if there's snow on the ground. You must not have ChemLawn in your area because they'll start in February here if the yards are clear. That in turn puts pressure on everyone else to start whether they want to or not.

LwnmwrMan22
04-28-2007, 09:23 PM
Umm, what else would you be applying at this time of year? It's only too early if there's snow on the ground. You must not have ChemLawn in your area because they'll start in February here if the yards are clear. That in turn puts pressure on everyone else to start whether they want to or not.

This is the worst statement I've seen on this site yet.

fall46
04-28-2007, 09:46 PM
Tim,

Sounds like he knows his stuff! I picked up the theromoter. LawnwrMan22 when u get a moment check your PM. Tim and I are trying to determine if its go time for the Pre-em in the Twin Cities. If so how far into the window are we. Dont want to miss the boat!

Thanks,
Matt

LwnmwrMan22
04-28-2007, 10:59 PM
Tim,

Sounds like he knows his stuff! I picked up the theromoter. LawnwrMan22 when u get a moment check your PM. Tim and I are trying to determine if its go time for the Pre-em in the Twin Cities. If so how far into the window are we. Dont want to miss the boat!

Thanks,
Matt

It's absolutely go time.

I'm giving myself 1 more week to get everything down, but also the yards that I'm doing at the end of the week (Thursday / Friday) are going to be in the Rush City, Pine City area, about 60-70 miles north of St. Paul.

You can't go by a site, even the soil temperature sites that are on the internet.

Some of those are saying that our soil temps are 65+ degrees. That's not the case. The only way is to get your own soil thermometer. The earler post about someone not having the luxury of having a soil thermometer, I don't really understand that, they're only about $30.

fall46
04-28-2007, 11:13 PM
I bought one today @ the hardware store it was 7.00. Will this work? Or do I need to get more sophiscated.

Its a Taylor meat thermometer
http://www.taylorusa.com/consumer/thermo/kitchenth.html
#5989N
Classic Instant Read 1" Dial Thermometer

Instant read thermometer with a range of 0F to 220F. Durable stainless steel stem. Shatterproof plastic lens. Exclusive Safe-T-SetTM recalibration feature. Convenient pocket case.

LwnmwrMan22
04-28-2007, 11:19 PM
I bought one today @ the hardware store it was 7.00. Will this work? Or do I need to get more sophiscated.

Its a Taylor meat thermometer
http://www.taylorusa.com/consumer/thermo/kitchenth.html
#5989N
Classic Instant Read 1" Dial Thermometer

Instant read thermometer with a range of 0F to 220F. Durable stainless steel stem. Shatterproof plastic lens. Exclusive Safe-T-SetTM recalibration feature. Convenient pocket case.

That's all I've got, for the most part.

fall46
04-28-2007, 11:24 PM
One last question. How far into the window for getting stuff down do I have. If I wait another 6-8 days will it be to late here in the Twin Cities. I know better late then never, but I was going to wait for specifc brand to be shiped can I afford to or should I just go buy some and get it down ASAP

LwnmwrMan22
04-28-2007, 11:33 PM
One last question. How far into the window for getting stuff down do I have. If I wait another 6-8 days will it be to late here in the Twin Cities. I know better late then never, but I was going to wait for specifc brand to be shiped can I afford to or should I just go buy some and get it down ASAP

What's the "brand"???

Dimension is going to be your best bet, as least in this area of the country.

At least it gives you some post emergence control too.

This year I switched to a sprayable Dimension product, .24% A.I.

fall46
04-28-2007, 11:37 PM
The shipment would be Barricade (sp?) Hope it would be here by Friday if not Monday. Alternative would then be Dimension .10% 19-0-6, if not that Halts. Its going on a newly seeded lawn (last fall) that Timturf helped me establish, it looks like a million dollars and I'm parnoid about screwing it up. Your comment about Dimension being the best bet in this part of country why is that? Is that all they stock here in Midwest, or is this product yield better results in our Zone?

LwnmwrMan22
04-28-2007, 11:44 PM
The shipment would be Barricade (sp?) Hope it would be here by Friday if not Monday. Alternative would then be Dimension .10% 19-0-6, if not that Halts. Its going on a newly seeded lawn (last fall) that Timturf helped me establish, it looks like a million dollars and I'm parnoid about screwing it up. Your comment about Dimension being the best bet in this part of country why is that? Is that all they stock here in Midwest, or is this product yield better results in our Zone?

You have a newly seeded yard....

How many times have you mowed it??

Also, is the yard your own?? Or one that you're maintaining?

Also, you can get the 19-0-6 Dimension pretty much anytime.

IMO, I'd cancel the Barricade if it's not in tomorrow (Monday), or keep it for next year, and just go and get the 19-0-6.

fall46
04-28-2007, 11:47 PM
You have a newly seeded yard....
Seeded last fall with Timturf as my mentor (he's memeber here on the site) He taught me a ton about the industry and doing things "the right way" the results speak for themselves, the lawn came in magnifcently

How many times have you mowed it??
6-8X last fall and tomorrow will be the 1st time this year he mows it

Also, is the yard your own?? Or one that you're maintaining?
Its my Dad's lawn down in Southern Wisconsin

Also, you can get the 19-0-6 Dimension pretty much anytime.
Yes, when I searched the Lesco site for that stores inventory thats all they had in stock for Pre-emergent, (I;m no pro though so maybe their is more it was store 576)

IMO, I'd cancel the Barricade if it's not in tomorrow (Monday), or keep it for next year, and just go and get the 19-0-6.[/QUOTE]
So does that mean were farily far into the window, with this abnormally warm weather, that I cant afford to wait for the Barricade?

timturf
04-29-2007, 04:51 PM
Here in TN, we apply pre-em when the forsithia (yellow bush) are in bloom. Generally that will fit in with the 55 degree soil temp and air temps as well. And just a little bit before any greenup. Never had the luxery of a soil thermometer

Small meat thermoter runs 5-6 bucks

and that ugle forsithia bush bluooms much earlier than when soil temps reach the proper temp for crab or goose grass germination

timturf
04-29-2007, 05:04 PM
What's the "brand"???

Dimension is going to be your best bet, as least in this area of the country.

At least it gives you some post emergence control too.

This year I switched to a sprayable Dimension product, .24% A.I.

But at what rate

what is the rate needed for dimension, please include the % ai, and then what is the rate for the same material to get post control
Much higher rate, right

prefer the barricaide, less root prunning...and using on a newly established lawn.....

Again...here in central Va...today is the 8th straight day of temps above 55 degrees, at sunrise, at the 3" depth in average turfgrass density site, expect to see some crab germination fairly soon, but the soil is extremely dry, got a small shower fri, so germination will be delayed fopr awhile

remeber, if soil temps drop below 55 degrees, you start all over counting the 3 consecutive days

LwnmwrMan22
04-29-2007, 06:45 PM
But at what rate

what is the rate needed for dimension, please include the % ai, and then what is the rate for the same material to get post control
Much higher rate, right

prefer the barricaide, less root prunning...and using on a newly established lawn.....

Again...here in central Va...today is the 8th straight day of temps above 55 degrees, at sunrise, at the 3" depth in average turfgrass density site, expect to see some crab germination fairly soon, but the soil is extremely dry, got a small shower fri, so germination will be delayed fopr awhile

remeber, if soil temps drop below 55 degrees, you start all over counting the 3 consecutive days

This is the first year I switched to liquid Dimension 2EW. I did this so I could run a much less N for the first round, as I mow the same lawns I fertilize. I only do 30ish accounts, but they're full service.

Anyways, right now I'm running it at 1 pint per acre, per label for program 1, lawns cut relatively high.

If you wanted more post emergent control, for yards that were not maintained previously, you could go to 1.5 pints per acre, program 3, if I remember right. I just got in the door (5 pm) and promised my 5 year old we could go fishing today, so I'm not going to take the time to look up the label right now.

Anyways, I said SOME post emergent control, not all, not total.

I also only said that I would drop the Barricade if it didn't come in on Monday, as if "fall" waits much longer, he'll be past. There's alot of CG already popping up, even past the 3 tiller stage on some of the lawns that I'm doing.

I was doing a bank today, and the lawn next to it had CG that was over 6" tall already. Thankfully we haven't had much rain, although now I need it to get the chemical doing its thing.

sclawndr
04-29-2007, 08:39 PM
This is the worst statement I've seen on this site yet.

Really? So you're fine explaining to your customers why all their neighbors had a treatment 3 weeks ago but you're not quite ready to start yet? Give me a break. And seriously, it's the end of April. If there's no snow on the ground, why not start? And if pre-emergent isn't your first app, what is? There's no harm in starting as early as possible - the worst case is the fert is ready when it warms up.

LwnmwrMan22
04-29-2007, 11:35 PM
Really? So you're fine explaining to your customers why all their neighbors had a treatment 3 weeks ago but you're not quite ready to start yet? Give me a break. And seriously, it's the end of April. If there's no snow on the ground, why not start? And if pre-emergent isn't your first app, what is? There's no harm in starting as early as possible - the worst case is the fert is ready when it warms up.

Pre-emergent has a window of approximately 8 weeks of effectiveness, obviously dependent on rainfall / irrigation.

If we were to apply here in February, the ground doesn't even THAW until mid-April, let alone reach 55 degrees.

That means that you're on the last legs of pre-emergent chemical available when you're JUST starting to reach ground temps of 40 degrees.

Now, you COULD start around the first of April, but then you'd better plan on split apps, since we could easily have a spring that's cool and wet, where ground temps don't hit 55 until mid-May. So, just because there's no snow on the ground, doesn't mean you go apply.

Personally, I love Chem-Lawn. It's a company that gives me the opportunity to educate a customer, other than the customer being told what will be done, whether the customer needs that application or not.

It also shows the customer that yes, I will be slightly higher per app, however over the year, I'll be cheaper, since I have no idea how Chem-Lawn runs 7 apps in a 5 1/2- 6 month growing season, unless you're running everything at 1/2 rate.

You only NEED 3, should have 4 apps in our area. If you really got going early, had a wet season, and a late fall, I suppose you could justify 5 rounds, not 7 like CL pushes here. That means that they're out applying every 3.3 weeks when you only have 6 months of growth.

I educate my customer as to how to correctly applying herbicides and pesticides. I'm not so big that I have to go out and apply earlier than need be, and then do damage control by reapplying or using Drive because I was out too early.

If a customer is upset that CL has already applied to their neighbor's yard, I bring them copies of labels and reports saying that the ground temps need to be 55, and how the chemical only lasts 'x' number of weeks, again, dependent on irrigation / rainfall.

LwnmwrMan22
04-29-2007, 11:37 PM
But at what rate

what is the rate needed for dimension, please include the % ai, and then what is the rate for the same material to get post control
Much higher rate, right

prefer the barricaide, less root prunning...and using on a newly established lawn.....

Again...here in central Va...today is the 8th straight day of temps above 55 degrees, at sunrise, at the 3" depth in average turfgrass density site, expect to see some crab germination fairly soon, but the soil is extremely dry, got a small shower fri, so germination will be delayed fopr awhile

remeber, if soil temps drop below 55 degrees, you start all over counting the 3 consecutive days

timturf - I'm sorry, I forgot to post the AI % earlier.

Dimension 2EW is .24%.

sclawndr
04-30-2007, 10:04 PM
Pre-emergent has a window of approximately 8 weeks of effectiveness, obviously dependent on rainfall / irrigation.

If we were to apply here in February, the ground doesn't even THAW until mid-April, let alone reach 55 degrees.

That means that you're on the last legs of pre-emergent chemical available when you're JUST starting to reach ground temps of 40 degrees.

Now, you COULD start around the first of April, but then you'd better plan on split apps, since we could easily have a spring that's cool and wet, where ground temps don't hit 55 until mid-May. So, just because there's no snow on the ground, doesn't mean you go apply.

Personally, I love Chem-Lawn. It's a company that gives me the opportunity to educate a customer, other than the customer being told what will be done, whether the customer needs that application or not.

It also shows the customer that yes, I will be slightly higher per app, however over the year, I'll be cheaper, since I have no idea how Chem-Lawn runs 7 apps in a 5 1/2- 6 month growing season, unless you're running everything at 1/2 rate.

You only NEED 3, should have 4 apps in our area. If you really got going early, had a wet season, and a late fall, I suppose you could justify 5 rounds, not 7 like CL pushes here. That means that they're out applying every 3.3 weeks when you only have 6 months of growth.

I educate my customer as to how to correctly applying herbicides and pesticides. I'm not so big that I have to go out and apply earlier than need be, and then do damage control by reapplying or using Drive because I was out too early.

If a customer is upset that CL has already applied to their neighbor's yard, I bring them copies of labels and reports saying that the ground temps need to be 55, and how the chemical only lasts 'x' number of weeks, again, dependent on irrigation / rainfall.


I wouldn't debate how many apps you need in your region but I'm sorry to say you're wrong about the timing of pre-emergent. There is nothing on a Dimension label for instance about ground temperature, so it is perfectly acceptable to get it down early (early is relative to your geopgraphical area). It is not good to wait until ground temps are 55 degrees as this is the point where grass seed, including crabgrass, germinates. Although Dimension has some post emergent control, you have to get it down before the crabgrass begins to tiller. There is simply no benefit to waiting that long for all your customers. The effectiveness of the product is related to many factors beyond timing - mowing height, irrigation, etc. The real point of getting out early for most of us is to get the lawns to green up quickly, get our service recognized and generate leads. If you or your customers don't value that, fine. But please don't bash me for applying on label and trying to maximize my business.

LwnmwrMan22
04-30-2007, 10:15 PM
I wouldn't debate how many apps you need in your region but I'm sorry to say you're wrong about the timing of pre-emergent. There is nothing on a Dimension label for instance about ground temperature, so it is perfectly acceptable to get it down early (early is relative to your geopgraphical area). It is not good to wait until ground temps are 55 degrees as this is the point where grass seed, including crabgrass, germinates. Although Dimension has some post emergent control, you have to get it down before the crabgrass begins to tiller. There is simply no benefit to waiting that long for all your customers. The effectiveness of the product is related to many factors beyond timing - mowing height, irrigation, etc. The real point of getting out early for most of us is to get the lawns to green up quickly, get our service recognized and generate leads. If you or your customers don't value that, fine. But please don't bash me for applying on label and trying to maximize my business.

Obviously you need to get it down before ground temps reach 55 degrees.

However, there's no reason to put it down when ground temps are 30 degrees either.

My only point was, that there's no reason to apply just because your 'competition' is out applying, and with the post that you just made, is my point as well.

There's many times on a site as this, even earlier in this post, that so many people use "folklore" ie, lilacs blooming, others applying, etc., rather than getting their own thermometer, learning the trade, that when you made your original post, I read it as you start just because you see ChemLawn applying, and for that I apologize.

Also, the reason I sort of "jumped" on you, is that the thread is specifically titled for Minnesota, and you came in stating start in February. In MN, we cannot start in February.

americanlawn
04-30-2007, 10:52 PM
Late April thru early May is best for the Twin Cities. You're not too late.

Greenery
05-23-2007, 11:29 PM
omg you guys are crazy. crabgrass is a warm season weed you say you seen some in april hahah better check again what your seeing is probably QUACKGRASS the best time to put down preemergence is end of april through may and again in june to help build up your barrier seems how it does ware off over about a 8 week period. Just use barricade for your pre and dimension for your post simple as that . lawnmower man i think youd better study up on your weeds hahaha

LwnmwrMan22
05-23-2007, 11:38 PM
omg you guys are crazy. crabgrass is a warm season weed you say you seen some in april hahah better check again what your seeing is probably QUACKGRASS the best time to put down preemergence is end of april through may and again in june to help build up your barrier seems how it does ware off over about a 8 week period. Just use barricade for your pre and dimension for your post simple as that . lawnmower man i think youd better study up on your weeds hahaha

You're right, I did see Quackgrass.

However, I have a couple of properties, where it's a small(er) area, on the south side of a building, where the windows are tinted with reflective material, which reflects the sun straight into these areas of turf, which are about 3' wide, 25' long, between the building and the blacktop parking lot.

These are the areas which get the early (sometimes very) CRABgrass, which I did have.

TurfProSTL
05-24-2007, 03:03 AM
Greenery

You're wasting $$ if you're doing 2 applications for crabgrass in MN. One shot of Barricade at the proper rate will last the entire season.....

bntt68
05-24-2007, 06:31 PM
Greenery

You're wasting $$ if you're doing 2 applications for crabgrass in MN. One shot of Barricade at the proper rate will last the entire season.....

I second that on the Barricade, IF it is applied at the proper rate.

Greenery
05-24-2007, 06:31 PM
Ya maybe so but over the years weve found it to help just because their is a 8 week residual and we like to keep the levels up pretty good through july and august just because not all of the deeper seeds germinate till then . oh and I made a mistake use DRIVE for your post emergence works really well just try not to spray too much grass cause it does tend to stress the grass a little bit. And lawnmower man after i read my post i may have come off sounding like a ahole but that was not my intention :hammerhead:

LwnmwrMan22
05-24-2007, 09:51 PM
Ya maybe so but over the years weve found it to help just because their is a 8 week residual and we like to keep the levels up pretty good through july and august just because not all of the deeper seeds germinate till then . oh and I made a mistake use DRIVE for your post emergence works really well just try not to spray too much grass cause it does tend to stress the grass a little bit. And lawnmower man after i read my post i may have come off sounding like a ahole but that was not my intention :hammerhead:

Right back at you, my response could have been looked at the same way.

I completely understand, everyone has different situations, even from E.P. to Forest Lake, where I service.

Welcome to the site.

TurfProSTL
05-25-2007, 02:02 AM
Ya maybe so but over the years weve found it to help just because their is a 8 week residual and we like to keep the levels up pretty good through july and august just because not all of the deeper seeds germinate till then.
Funny, we get 6-7 months control here with Barricade (.75 lb AIA). Put down enough active ingredient in your first application and you can forget about the post-emergent in most cases. Especially as far north as MN.

Grandview
05-25-2007, 07:20 AM
I have been using Dimension the last 5-6 years. I do one application in April or early May. I have very few out breaks of crabgrass. Then it is only along the edges. A split application would be a waste of product and time. Our spring is probably a week or two earlier than the Twin Cities.

americanlawn
05-25-2007, 08:23 PM
Yep -- many lawns in the Twin City area could probably get by without a pre-emergent if they mow right. I give my brother a bag of Dimension+fert every Christmas -- he lives in the western suburbs of Minneapolis. Never any crabgrass, etc.

Foxtail shows up later -- especially in newly sodded lawns in the seams. So we apply fert + pre on all new customers through July. Hey...it can't hurt.

Your I-35 neighbor to the south, americanlawn
p.s. I never use pre-emergent on my lawn, cuz I mow high (Kentucky bluegrass) Never any crabgrass.

tdkx
05-26-2007, 01:17 AM
Are we talking about Pre-M(pendimethalin) or Dimension(dithiopyr)? If one reads the label of Dimension we can see that it instructs that there will be kill on post-emergent crabgrass up to second tiller growth stage. Some LCO companies do things to generate invoices and others try to do a overly good job for their customer. The other group of individuals reads the label, applies years of experience and understands what the label means. I live in MN, and there is a tremendous amount of cunfusion between quackgrass and crabgrass.

americanlawn
05-30-2007, 08:08 PM
If you're talking about post emergent control, you must use the liquid formulations of the above. Dimension is the best choice if the crabgrass is not very far along.
Quackgrass - I know....lots of uneducated customers. We're gunna try a new quackgrass herbicide from LESCO, but I'm not holding my breath, cuz the "tall fescue control" (Corsair) has been a disappointment for us. Regards, americanlawn.

TurfProSTL
05-30-2007, 09:35 PM
I've gotten very good post-emergent control with granular Dimension products.....