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Ed G
04-20-2007, 08:10 AM
Yesterday I was given a PGP rotary sprinkler (4" pop-up) by my neighbor to replace one that was leaking between the turret and the body.

My neighbor works for a lawn care company and does minor irrigation repair.

The PGP he gave me is made so you can completely dis-assemble the thing.

All the PGP's that were installed in my yard by an irrigation company 6 years ago, cannot be dis-assembled.

Aren't all PGP's the same?

PurpHaze
04-20-2007, 09:11 AM
The PGP he gave me is made so you can completely dis-assemble the thing.

All the PGP's that were installed in my yard by an irrigation company 6 years ago, cannot be dis-assembled.

Ed... by "completely disassemble" do you mean separating the actual sprinkler from the body or are you saying you can remove the nozzle housing, sprinkler riser, spring, etc. and break the sprinkler down into components similar to just about every spray pop-up on the market?

Tadams
04-20-2007, 09:19 AM
Have you gotten the old PGP out of the ground or are you trying to disassemble it while it is still in the ground? They can be a pain to take apart in the ground after they have been in there for awhile. However, you should be able to take it apart once you have it out of the ground. Why do you want to take it apart?

Ed G
04-20-2007, 09:20 AM
I was meaning you could seperate the pop-up turret from the body (like you can with the 4" pop-up spray bodies).

But, now that you mention it, the one my neighbor gave me, sure looks like you could detach the nozzle housing and remove the spring.

PurpHaze
04-20-2007, 09:21 AM
Must be able to take the PGP apart as there are replacement parts available for it. :)

http://www.hunterindustries.com/Resources/PDFs/Product_Guides/Domestic/lit213w.pdf

Ed G
04-20-2007, 09:31 AM
Quote: "Have you gotten the old PGP out of the ground or are you trying to disassemble it while it is still in the ground? They can be a pain to take apart in the ground after they have been in there for awhile. However, you should be able to take it apart once you have it out of the ground. Why do you want to take it apart?"

yep the PGP's are out of the ground. I have several laying around since I replaced them with the MP Rotators.

I originally wanted to take the leaking PGP apart thinking that perhaps dirt was causing it to leak and I could clean and flush it out.

Every one the PGP's I removed from the ground almost seems as if the nut was glued to the body.

Would an irrigator do this in order to gain a future service call?

PurpHaze
04-20-2007, 09:36 AM
I was meaning you could seperate the pop-up turret from the body (like you can with the 4" pop-up spray bodies).

But, now that you mention it, the one my neighbor gave me, sure looks like you could detach the nozzle housing and remove the spring.

Unless they've radically changed the design and made the sprinkler/body an all-in-one unit you probably just have a sprinkler that has been tightened drastically onto the body.

The Hunter PGP assembly line is a totally automated line. Maybe one of the machines overtightened the sprinkler guts to the body? I've had other sprinklers (from various manufacturers), usually in a "by case" scenario, where it's almost impossible to separate the sprinkler from the body due to tightness and have had to reply on two pairs of Channel Locks to separate them. I've had this happen from time to time with the Hunter I-20 too.

Can you post a picture Ed?

PurpHaze
04-20-2007, 09:38 AM
Every one the PGP's I removed from the ground almost seems as if the nut was glued to the body.

Would an irrigator do this in order to gain a future service call?

Doubt that anyone would go through the trouble... but stranger things have happened. :laugh:

DanaMac
04-20-2007, 09:43 AM
Would an irrigator do this in order to gain a future service call?

I do this all the time because I never have enough work to keep me occupied. :rolleyes: But I suppose it could happen.

Ed G
04-20-2007, 09:43 AM
I could see one or two PGP's being drastically over tightened, but all of them? Seems strange.

It's really no big deal. I'm just curious about the reason they won't seperate. I was thinking there might be a contractor and residential version of the PGP.

I'm so spoiled by the coverage and simplicity of the MP Rotators, that come winter, those damn PGP's in my front yard are gonna get yanked.

SprinklerGuy
04-20-2007, 11:21 AM
Lightly bang the head on the sidewalk a couple of times to loosen the "nut"..sometimes it just needs to be convinced...

Mike Leary
04-20-2007, 11:31 AM
Has anyone seen a "big box" version of the PGP in those stores?
We know Rain-Bird does this & others too, but It would p.ss me off to find
that Hunter did it.

Wet_Boots
04-20-2007, 11:55 AM
Orbit sells the big-box version of the PGP. Different cap. Probably different-looking enough to 'protect' the Hunter name.

MarcSmith
04-20-2007, 12:03 PM
I'll have problem with just about any type of sprinkler that sits in the ground. you get dirt, and crud in the and it kinda welds itself together.

The only good thing to gluing it togther is that the company would make the sale on a new rotor.

But yeah channel lock and some beating on concrete will help. But for the price of a new rotor, they are just about disposable, unless you are talking some of the larger monsters...

Ed G
04-20-2007, 12:10 PM
using two channel locks sure didn't loosen the thing up. I actually deformed the body on one trying to get it apart.

Tonight I'll try beating it...the rotor that is. :)

Wet_Boots
04-20-2007, 12:16 PM
Based upon the cost of the time involved, there is pretty much zero reason to dismantle a PGP, or almost any rotor.

Ed G
04-20-2007, 12:28 PM
well here's one reason...how many home owners keep a case of PGP's on hand?

When you discover you have one leaking and you want to see if you can easily correct the problem, one might take it apart.

Hell, why take apart a $2.50 pop-up spray body (with nozzle) to clean it? Because you can!

Wet_Boots
04-20-2007, 12:43 PM
If you're blowing sand into the system, the PGPs will die from seal failure. The cure is to strain out the sand in the first place. If you can't strain out the sand, then there is not a gear-drive rotor that can be counted on to operate trouble-free.

Ed G
04-20-2007, 01:03 PM
I absolutely agree.

That's why I installed a 1" cast bronze "Y" strainer immediately after the POC.

Wet_Boots
04-20-2007, 01:17 PM
What mesh? What make? (it can actually make a big difference - Watts sold some 100 mesh strainers that merely slipped the fine-mesh screen around the regular 20 mesh screen, with room for sand to get by)

If the sprinkler companies really cared a whole bunch about disassembling the rotor heads, they'd have some sort of gripping surfaces on the bodies. Toro actually has those.

Ed G
04-20-2007, 01:38 PM
Conbraco Valve.

The 3/4" thru 2" valves come standard with 20 mesh stainless screens (.016 wire).

Wet_Boots
04-20-2007, 02:24 PM
Standard 20-mesh is useless for lawn sprinkler systems. You special-order the proper mesh strainer, if need be.

Ed G
04-20-2007, 03:27 PM
I'll be allright with what I have. I'm on city water, so I'm not blowing that much sand into my system.

In fact, I recall one of your old posts:

"Most city water is so clean it wouldn't trouble sprinkler heads, hydrant flushing or no.
I have seen a few extra-fine metal strainers under specific Toro nozzles collect enough particles to mess up the coverage, so it's obvious the water isn't perfect.
But it wouldn't be cost effective to use a strainer on every city-water system."

Mike Leary
04-20-2007, 03:36 PM
What mesh? What make? (it can actually make a big difference - Watts sold some 100 mesh strainers that merely slipped the fine-mesh screen around the regular 20 mesh screen, with room for sand to get by)

If the sprinkler companies really cared a whole bunch about disassembling the rotor heads, they'd have some sort of gripping surfaces on the bodies. Toro actually has those.

The only rotors we took apart were the Toro "Stream-Rotors", that have
the nice gunk basket important to keep clean. But everything else:
"if it leaks, chuck it..parts are cheaper than labor". If it's the other way
around, you probably didn't pay much taxes this year!

Wet_Boots
04-20-2007, 03:59 PM
If nozzles are being removed to clean popup strainers, then there is enough sand/dirt to be of concern. Or else some dirt got in during installation. Most city water should be okay without straining. I never install whole-system strainers on city water, although I have seen some sand show up from very-small water purveyors who might not be 'polishing' the water as much as bigger utilities could.

I still repair the 300 stream rotor heads. But I do have all the parts, plus a few I pull from edger-destroyed heads.

Ed G
04-20-2007, 04:15 PM
"If nozzles are being removed to clean popup strainers, then there is enough sand/dirt to be of concern."

Boots, you sure your responding to the correct thread? I never said squat about cleaning popup strainers. LOL :)

Wet_Boots
04-20-2007, 04:25 PM
Hell, why take apart a $2.50 pop-up spray body (with nozzle) to clean it? Because you can!I believed you might be doing the aforementioned activity. Maybe not.

(but then again, you made some statement to the effect that some Ohio joint had the best BBQ, when in fact, they boil and grill their ribs :nono: )

Ed G
04-20-2007, 04:40 PM
No, that was just an example stating that one does sometimes take the time to dismantle a cheaply priced spray body instead of discarding it.

Boiled and grilled ribs are fine with me and thousands of others. I actually hate any meat that has been smoked.

Wet_Boots
04-20-2007, 05:16 PM
Hey, fifty bazillion Chinese restaurant customers can't be wrong! (but the misstatement still gives us razzing privileges)

Mike Leary
04-20-2007, 06:17 PM
Hey Ed, give us your adress so we can send you our leakers, do you work
on Orbit & Lawn Genie too? Pretty strong meat statement with this crowd!

Ed G
04-20-2007, 06:35 PM
SprinklerGuy and MarcSmith:

You guys were right on! When I got home, I gave the head a few whacks on the concrete driveway and was able to twist it apart.

Gave the parts a bubble bath, reassembled and no more leaky PGP.

Thanks!

Wet_Boots
04-20-2007, 07:04 PM
Let's see, bash (sprinkler) head on driveway, half a minute. Bubble bath, ten minutes. Eighty buck service charge. Works for me. When the head leaks next week, the customer might think different.

Mike Leary
04-20-2007, 07:09 PM
Let's see, bash (sprinkler) head on driveway, half a minute. Bubble bath, ten minutes. Eighty buck service charge. Works for me. When the head leaks next week, the customer might think different.

Hell, one could have thrown a Hunter I-20 ultra 6" stainless in the ground
& still made money...with a satisfied client!

Mike Leary
04-20-2007, 07:11 PM
Let's see, bash (sprinkler) head on driveway, half a minute. Bubble bath, ten minutes. Eighty buck service charge. Works for me. When the head leaks next week, the customer might think different.

Hell, one could have thrown a Hunter I-20 ultra 6" stainless in the ground
& still made money...with a satisfied client!:hammerhead:

SprinklerGuy
04-20-2007, 07:43 PM
I'm glad it helped Ed...sometimes it is easier than our brains can recognize....

Mike Leary
04-20-2007, 07:56 PM
I'm glad it helped Ed...sometimes it is easier than our brains can recognize....

Gold star award winner....."bang the heads"..Is that taught at I.A. class?

Ed G
04-20-2007, 08:57 PM
Yea man, the vultures certainly like their meat smoked or boiled.

sounds like wet boots and mike Leary can always find residential irrigation work in Florida!

In fact when boots dies, you'll still hear arguing coming from his coffin weeks after the funeral... "you *****, you should have gotten a mahogany one"...

But, you know I'm just joking with ya boots. I love ya man. I respect you enough to consider you to be my irrigation equal :)

Wet_Boots
04-20-2007, 09:04 PM
Work in Florida?!! The fire ants are all yours, pal.

Ed G
04-20-2007, 09:15 PM
geeze, your as soft as hospital cotton.

I moved here from Pittsburgh and can tell you it doesn't take very long to get used to be bitten.

Wet_Boots
04-20-2007, 09:30 PM
Yinz don't say so? :)

Mike Leary
04-20-2007, 10:46 PM
Yinz don't say so? :)

Boots, don't blow it, we got a good thing going.....today Florida..tomorrow!!!!

Ed G
04-21-2007, 07:52 AM
"Yinz don't say so?"

Boots! Wow.

I'm amazed you got that. Most people think it's "Yuinz", but that would be the dialog of towns east of Pittsburgh (Johnstown area for example).

SprinklerGuy
04-21-2007, 08:54 AM
I never took any classes to learn this....a monkey could do irrigation if he tried hard enough...

I think I may have gotten pissed at an older PGP in the late 80's and tossed it into the back of my golf cart......when I got back to the shop, it opened.....hmmmm

We were battling mollusks at the time...

Ed G
04-21-2007, 09:22 AM
A monkey could do this...

LOL! I think every profession says that.

Before getting into Drafting and Design, I was a pro photographer (way back when they used a product called "film").

When I was in the lab printing photos (which is a very easy and repetitive task), I used to think "ya know, I bet I could train a monkey to do this".

Rotor_Tool
04-21-2007, 04:30 PM
Yesterday I was given a PGP rotary sprinkler (4" pop-up) by my neighbor to replace one that was leaking between the turret and the body.

My neighbor works for a lawn care company and does minor irrigation repair.

The PGP he gave me is made so you can completely dis-assemble the thing.

All the PGP's that were installed in my yard by an irrigation company 6 years ago, cannot be dis-assembled.

Aren't all PGP's the same?

Your first mistake was accepting a PGP, even free this is a risk. The easiest way to fix this problem that will continue, is to replace the PGP's and the MP Rotators (they will fail too) with 5004's from the Bird.

londonrain
04-21-2007, 04:49 PM
Your first mistake was accepting a PGP, even free this is a risk. The easiest way to fix this problem that will continue, is to replace the PGP's and the MP Rotators (they will fail too) with 5004's from the Bird.The 5004's have been out a few years and you think they are better than a PGP....:laugh: Remember the t-bird, the 5000's :nono: Only good rotor head Rain Bird had was the R-50 and they discontinued the head....:confused:

Rotor_Tool
04-21-2007, 05:00 PM
The 5004's have been out a few years and you think they are better than a PGP....:laugh: Remember the t-bird, the 5000's :nono: Only good rotor head Rain Bird had was the R-50 and they discontinued the head....:confused:

Case in point, original PGP came with a lifetime warranty, then it was 10 years, then it was 5 years, now it is 2 years. 5004's have a 5 year warranty out of the box (you don't have to upgrade to the next series). Seems that the manufacturers have made that decision for us. As far as performance goes, have you ever placed the two next to each other? Seeing is believing, only one head has ever been designed with better distribution uniformity than the 5004 (in a 3/4" rotor), this is only because it put water everywhere! Besides the visual performance, Hunter is now working on a "Rain Curtain" nozzle, when the #1 selling rotor in the world is trying to copy a nozzle technology, it sure sounds like they are threatened?? In addition to performance I can buy a 5004+ w/stream control for less $$ than I can buy a PGP.

I remember the T-Bird well, wasn't a great product for Rain Bird. But they seem to be doing ok.

londonrain
04-21-2007, 05:12 PM
Case in point, original PGP came with a lifetime warranty, then it was 10 years, then it was 5 years, now it is 2 years. 5004's have a 5 year warranty out of the box (you don't have to upgrade to the next series). Seems that the manufacturers have made that decision for us. As far as performance goes, have you ever placed the two next to each other? Seeing is believing, only one head has ever been designed with better distribution uniformity than the 5004 (in a 3/4" rotor), this is only because it put water everywhere! Besides the visual performance, Hunter is now working on a "Rain Curtain" nozzle, when the #1 selling rotor in the world is trying to copy a nozzle technology, it sure sounds like they are threatened?? In addition to performance I can buy a 5004+ w/stream control for less $$ than I can buy a PGP.

I remember the T-Bird well, wasn't a great product for Rain Bird. But they seem to be doing ok.
I agree Rain Bird has a better "nozzle" than a Hunter .... The Rain Bird salesman gave me a free case of 5004 plus this week and I installed 13 on one commercial job for the State of SC and I already had to replace one since it was leaking around the wiper seal on install... I don't care if Rain Bird gave a lifetime warranty on the rotor head , it cost me money going back and replacing a head which quits rotating and Rain Bird rotors are known for this problem...

Rotor_Tool
04-21-2007, 05:17 PM
I agree Rain Bird has a better "nozzle" than a Hunter .... The Rain Bird salesman gave me a free case of 5004 plus this week and I installed 13 on one commercial job for the State of SC and I already had to replace one since it was leaking around the wiper seal on install... I don't care if Rain Bird gave a lifetime warranty on the rotor head , it cost me money going back and replacing a head which quits rotating and Rain Bird rotors are known for this problem...

Sounds like an installation issue to me. I've put thousands of these things in the ground without rotation issues. My sales person helped me understand the slip clutch feature when I first began using them, haven't had an issue to date. Although I have used several of the UPG's (the 5004 that fits into the PGP body) to replace non-rotators and leaking wiper seals. Don't get me wrong, the PGP is a great head, but all good things must come to an end. I've moved on to a better rotor. Keep using the 5004's you won't be diappointed.

londonrain
04-21-2007, 05:58 PM
Sounds like an installation issue to me. I've put thousands of these things in the ground without rotation issues. My sales person helped me understand the slip clutch feature when I first began using them, haven't had an issue to date. Although I have used several of the UPG's (the 5004 that fits into the PGP body) to replace non-rotators and leaking wiper seals. Don't get me wrong, the PGP is a great head, but all good things must come to an end. I've moved on to a better rotor. Keep using the 5004's you won't be diappointed.
Here is a pic of a P series Hunter that I just replaced a few weeks ago with a 1 2 86 date code, I guess someone should have told the original installer it was a mistake installing a Hunter... 20+ years out of a Hunter Rotor is no mistake so Ill keep on installing what is proven....not a flavor of the month Rotor head which Rain Bird is know for..

MOlawnman
04-21-2007, 08:11 PM
Here is a pic of a P series Hunter that I just replaced a few weeks ago with a 1 2 86 date code, I guess someone should have told the original installer it was a mistake installing a Hunter... 20+ years out of a Hunter Rotor is no mistake so Ill keep on installing what is proven....not a flavor of the month Rotor head which Rain Bird is know for..


Have to agree here. I don't see any reason why anyone would replace a PGP with a 5004. The only reason Rain-Bird came up with the retrofit for the PGP was because Hunter came out with a retrofit for the Maxi-Paw.

Now I have to admit that I once was a dedicated RB installer but I have seen the error of my ways. After replacing 19 5004's on one job because they stopped rotating that was it. The only thing I got out of the Rain-Bird rep was "we're sorry for your problems, those things sometimes happen". Not for me anymore, Hunter PGP all the way. Except that i do love the MP-Rotator and install more of them than anything else!

DanaMac
04-21-2007, 08:16 PM
I never took any classes to learn this....a monkey could do irrigation if he tried hard enough...

Yeah but can you teach him to not throw poop at the customer?:dizzy:

DanaMac
04-21-2007, 08:23 PM
there is only one thing I prefer about the PGP..... reliability. The 5004 has better price (for me anyway), coverage/spray pattern, slip clutch for easier adjustments, nozzle tree comes with regular and low angle as opposed to the separate low angle tree from Hunter, nozzles say right on them how much water will be coming out rather than having to use Hunters chart for a #1-12, and warranty.

I replaced thousands of T-Birds back in the day. And RB paid me to do it. And I have had some failures with the 5000, but I still prefer to put it in the ground for all the other reasons mentioned above.

londonrain
04-21-2007, 08:37 PM
The only reason Rain-Bird came up with the retrofit for the PGP was because Hunter came out with a retrofit for the Maxi-Paw.


The Rain Bird rep was in the supply house and showed the 5004 retrofit to another contractor friend of mine and he said" Why would I put that piece of crap in a Hunter body":confused:

PurpHaze
04-21-2007, 10:01 PM
Damn... By the looks of this thread there might be a couple of guys that need to enter a rotor 12 step program. :laugh:

Rotor_Tool
04-21-2007, 11:44 PM
Here is a pic of a P series Hunter that I just replaced a few weeks ago with a 1 2 86 date code, I guess someone should have told the original installer it was a mistake installing a Hunter... 20+ years out of a Hunter Rotor is no mistake so Ill keep on installing what is proven....not a flavor of the month Rotor head which Rain Bird is know for..

Ahh, but it did fail. I've got maxi's (from the 70's), T-Birds, R-50's, Talons, Falcons, and mini's still running after many of service as well. The 5004 is not necessarily a flavor of the month, but innovation. The 5004 is still an infant when compared to the PGP, but it will be around for years to come. I think Rain Curtain technology is only the beginning, I believe the king is in serious trouble. Rain Bird has already taken over the 1/2" rotor market with the 3500, it is only a matter of time until the 5004 does the same. Mass production has really hurt the PGP, the irrigation imitators will have to step up. Speaking of flavor of the month, what about the R-Type, the PX spray, the PGM (all three versions of nozzles), the PGJ (just a PGM with a taller turret and new nozzles), the PSC controller, IDS, and let's not forget about the ETC controller of the early 90's??

londonrain
04-22-2007, 01:17 AM
Ahh, but it did fail. I've got maxi's (from the 70's), T-Birds, R-50's, Talons, Falcons, and mini's still running after many of service as well. The 5004 is not necessarily a flavor of the month, but innovation. The 5004 is still an infant when compared to the PGP, but it will be around for years to come. I think Rain Curtain technology is only the beginning, I believe the king is in serious trouble. Rain Bird has already taken over the 1/2" rotor market with the 3500, it is only a matter of time until the 5004 does the same. Mass production has really hurt the PGP, the irrigation imitators will have to step up. Speaking of flavor of the month, what about the R-Type, the PX spray, the PGM (all three versions of nozzles), the PGJ (just a PGM with a taller turret and new nozzles), the PSC controller, IDS, and let's not forget about the ETC controller of the early 90's??
I know that I replace more Rain Bird Rotor heads than Hunter rotors. If more contractor in my area installed more Rain Bird then I would be replacing even more than I do now. There is a reason why more Rain Bird rotors are not installed and it is because they fail. Saving a couple of dollars on a rotor head is not what I am about, I am more of a quality type of guy. A 5004 might be a good choice for the low ballers since it is cheaper and for a reason....

Remote Pigtails
04-22-2007, 02:47 AM
I'll vote for the PGP. My only gripe is that they don't include a low angle nozzle tree as standard equipment. I am going to try the 5000s cuz my supply house sold me a case at 5.40/hd. Told me RB is out to break the PGPs hold on the rotor market.

Ed G
04-22-2007, 08:27 AM
Your first mistake was accepting a PGP, even free this is a risk. The easiest way to fix this problem that will continue, is to replace the PGP's and the MP Rotators (they will fail too) with 5004's from the Bird.


My biggest mistake would be listening to someone I don't know telling me I've made a mistake and giving me suggestions on buying something I don't need.

If one of my Rotators fail, so what? Ever replace one? Not exactly a huge chore.... and these beauties are certainly small enough where any Joe Homeowner can keep a couple of spares in his underwear drawer.

bicmudpuppy
04-22-2007, 08:45 AM
Ahh, but it did fail. I've got maxi's (from the 70's), T-Birds, R-50's, Talons, Falcons, and mini's still running after many of service as well. The 5004 is not necessarily a flavor of the month, but innovation. The 5004 is still an infant when compared to the PGP, but it will be around for years to come. I think Rain Curtain technology is only the beginning, I believe the king is in serious trouble. Rain Bird has already taken over the 1/2" rotor market with the 3500, it is only a matter of time until the 5004 does the same. Mass production has really hurt the PGP, the irrigation imitators will have to step up. Speaking of flavor of the month, what about the R-Type, the PX spray, the PGM (all three versions of nozzles), the PGJ (just a PGM with a taller turret and new nozzles), the PSC controller, IDS, and let's not forget about the ETC controller of the early 90's??

And I can show you "G" type rotors that we find still spinning too. Warranty is an advertising ploy to catch the unwarry. Hunter never intended the PGP to be a "10 year" head anymore than RB thinks the 5000's will last 5 or that Orbit remotely believes thier head will survive 7. Did you ever READ the warranty on sprinkler parts? From heads to controllers, the warranty is to "the original INSTALLER". How many systems are still being serviced by the original installer 5 years later? How many of those original installers are giving the customer a new head for one that has been in the ground for 5 years? The I-20 is a 5 year head, the PGP is now a 2. So, why, when I was still working residential service up til last year, warranty more I-20's that are less than 2 years old than I do PGP's? What percentage of service techs even keep track of warranty heads anymore? The customer paid for a new head. Taking the extra time to get a "free" head from the parts house for the average clock puncher ain't going to happen.

And you want to talk quality and mention an RB 3500 at the same time? I see you've had your ration of lawn genies for the season already. Maybe you should share what your toking on?

DanaMac
04-22-2007, 09:10 AM
And you want to talk quality and mention an RB 3500 at the same time? I see you've had your ration of lawn genies for the season already. Maybe you should share what your toking on?

i'll completely agree on this. The 3500 is junk. I replace quite a few that stop turning, or leak bad at the wiper seal. But honestly, I don't find the Hunter PGJ any better, and don't get me started on the PGM from a few years ago. Yes, Hunter made a bad product -

SprinklerGuy
04-22-2007, 10:32 AM
3500 = chit
PGJ = almost chit

The small rotor market needs help.....

That being said....

I have installed (insert largest number you can think of here)...PGP's and PGM's and PGJ's and haven't gone back much for warranty....to me that is the kicker and the proof in the pudding so to speak....because I could care less if a product goes bad on someone elses jobsite.....I only care about mine.

However, I installed 3 projects last year w/ the 3500 and went back to them all.....and while installing them they failed as well..they are crap....


Ford/Chevy.....

Wet_Boots
04-22-2007, 10:53 AM
"Yinz don't say so?"

Boots! Wow.

I'm amazed you got that. Most people think it's "Yuinz", but that would be the dialog of towns east of Pittsburgh (Johnstown area for example).'Yinz' is easy, and one can google up pages of Pittsburgh-ese. What I am finding to be far more elusive is the use of "Yull" (rhymes with 'hull' and 'null') in place of 'Yes' ~ I think it's northwest of Pittsburgh, from where it originated.

PurpHaze
04-22-2007, 11:14 AM
Maybe you should share what your toking on?

Don't Bogart, my friend. In my younger days I'd be joining in. :)

PurpHaze
04-22-2007, 11:20 AM
We still have many Toro 640 field rotors out in our systems that are 20+ years old and still working fine on galvanized swing joints that are frozen. However, when they go out they are changed to Hunter I-40s on a standard swing joint. The 640 is expensive, has to have its stator matched to the nozzle, is not adjustable (comes in preset arc motors) and only pops up a little over 3". It is a very good field rotor but just doesn't meet our needs any longer.

Rotor_Tool
04-22-2007, 02:45 PM
I know that I replace more Rain Bird Rotor heads than Hunter rotors. If more contractor in my area installed more Rain Bird then I would be replacing even more than I do now. There is a reason why more Rain Bird rotors are not installed and it is because they fail. Saving a couple of dollars on a rotor head is not what I am about, I am more of a quality type of guy. A 5004 might be a good choice for the low ballers since it is cheaper and for a reason....

Here we go again, low ballers...think back to the pre-Hunter days (unless you were part of the problem and have only been around since Hunter's intro to the market) when it was Rain Bird, Toro, and your ambitious Nelson or Buckner guy prices were fairly stable for an installed system. Since Hunter's introduction prices have steadily decreased for an installed system. Labor rates are increasing, insurance is increasing, gas, equipment, everything is steadily increasing with the exception of sprinkler components. Rain Bird has never been known for being the low-priced product in any market. Although they have gotten aggressive with the rotor pricing, quote any other component and I guarantee Rain Bird will be at or near the top in regard to price...I've seen it mentioned here before - you get what you pay for.

I have many friends in this industry with whom I've had this same conversation about low-ballers, when I ask what product they use (the low-ballers) the response 99.9% of the time is Hunter, when I ask why they use Hunter, the response 99.99999% of time is because it is cheaper. The low-baller phenomenon you mention above is being driven by your manufacturer of choice. Yes, they've had a good run with the PGP. Give it time, you'll come around. Wait until the production moves to China with the rest of their product, it too will suffer.

Wet_Boots
04-22-2007, 03:15 PM
I'd give Rainbird and Toro more credit for modern sprinkler trends, and maybe Toro overall, with their 600 series. I forget whether the Super600 hit the market before the Minipaw, but both of them allowed a zone to cover more territory, with lower system costs following.

Prior to them, you were not going to get a 40 foot throw with less than 4 gpm, and zones would have three impact heads, on average.

(this is for the third-to-half acre properties common in the northeast US - different trends might have applied elsewhere)

londonrain
04-22-2007, 05:01 PM
Here we go again, low ballers...think back to the pre-Hunter days (unless you were part of the problem and have only been around since Hunter's intro to the market) when it was Rain Bird, Toro, and your ambitious Nelson or Buckner guy prices were fairly stable for an installed system. Since Hunter's introduction prices have steadily decreased for an installed system. Labor rates are increasing, insurance is increasing, gas, equipment, everything is steadily increasing with the exception of sprinkler components. Rain Bird has never been known for being the low-priced product in any market. Although they have gotten aggressive with the rotor pricing, quote any other component and I guarantee Rain Bird will be at or near the top in regard to price...I've seen it mentioned here before - you get what you pay for.

youI have many friends in this industry with whom I've had this same conversation about low-ballers, when I ask what product they use (the low-ballers) the response 99.9% of the time is Hunter, when I ask why they use Hunter, the response 99.99999% of time is because it is cheaper. The low-baller phenomenon you mention above is being driven by your manufacturer of choice. Yes, they've had a good run with the PGP. Give it time, you'll come around. Wait until the production moves to China with the rest of their product, it too will suffer.At one time I did install all Rain Bird products but the failures forced me to change to a more reliable product. My standard install now is I-20's 1800prs/sam , 101g valves , pro-c and a 10 year warranty on the piping.
I helped install my first irrigation system when I was 9 in Texas and started again when I was 12 in SC and I just turned 40 so I have been around irrigation a lot...

Recap on the Rain Bird rotor heads; R-50 - ok but not a true gear driven rotor head but now discontinued, t-bird burned me big time on failures, 3500 thank god I never install any because I learned from the T-bird , 5000's fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me - I have replace many 5000's... so the track record speaks for itself.

Now you claim the 5004 is the end all of rotor heads and why is this? because it is cheap than a PGP and it is made in Mexico?

And I believe that Rain Bird sells in all the big box stores and Hunter does not...

So please respond with facts not fiction.....

Wet_Boots
04-22-2007, 06:31 PM
Isn't the Orbit rotor a PGP in disguise? (and a good disguise, at that - I like the 'protection' of the Hunter name)

I'm going to miss the clickety-clack of the R-50, but it was always a tough sell.

Remote Pigtails
04-22-2007, 06:35 PM
Getting channel locks on the R 50 was tough. At least it was easy to stick the replacement in.

Wet_Boots
04-22-2007, 06:44 PM
I can count on the knuckles of one finger the number of R-50s I've had to replace.

Remote Pigtails
04-22-2007, 06:47 PM
That would be ?! three! I only replaced them due to edger damage or nozzle change reasons. I only stock nozzles for the PGP.

Keith
04-22-2007, 07:00 PM
Isn't the Orbit rotor a PGP in disguise? (and a good disguise, at that - I like the 'protection' of the Hunter name)



A lot of people install Orbits around here. And I have replaced a lot of Orbits. In fact a disproportionate amount in relation to PGP's of all ages. Either this is a huge coincidence or they are not quite up to the level of the PGP. If they are identical, I must be finding all the bad ones.

Dirty Water
04-22-2007, 07:20 PM
I've replaced around 25 R-50's from one single site alone. Seems to me like they work good for about 3 years, and then stop rotating.

Rotor_Tool
04-22-2007, 07:23 PM
At one time I did install all Rain Bird products but the failures forced me to change to a more reliable product. My standard install now is I-20's 1800prs/sam , 101g valves , pro-c and a 10 year warranty on the piping.
I helped install my first irrigation system when I was 9 in Texas and started again when I was 12 in SC and I just turned 40 so I have been around irrigation a lot...

Recap on the Rain Bird rotor heads; R-50 - ok but not a true gear driven rotor head but now discontinued, t-bird burned me big time on failures, 3500 thank god I never install any because I learned from the T-bird , 5000's fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me - I have replace many 5000's... so the track record speaks for itself.

Now you claim the 5004 is the end all of rotor heads and why is this? because it is cheap than a PGP and it is made in Mexico?

And I believe that Rain Bird sells in all the big box stores and Hunter does not...

So please respond with facts not fiction.....

Ever hear of an Orbit rotor sold through the Big Box stores? You got it, a PGP with a different cover. RB is sold through this channel for a reason, to get the name in front of the homeowner so after they attemp the install, they will link the names together when they call in the professional for help - it's called marketing.

You install I-20's and we are arguing about the PGP? Seems like there is more to the story...At least you've not fallen victim to the Pro-Spray or Institutional Spray yet...

As far as the facts go, I stated them earlier with the flavor of the month points...the 5004 is made in the states and assembled in Mexico much like many of the US autos today. Every component in a 5000 rotor is molded in the states, I've toured the manufacturing plants and witnessed it first hand. Many of the molding tools have made in Mexico stamped into them for Customs purposes, but the components are made in the US.

Wet_Boots
04-22-2007, 07:28 PM
None of the R-50s I installed were running on sandy water, and there were no nozzle-stator mismatches. That they keep on working is in line with the track record of the unsurpassed Safe-T-Lawn ball drive rotors.

Remote Pigtails
04-22-2007, 07:52 PM
None of the R-50s I installed were running on sandy water, and there were no nozzle-stator mismatches. That they keep on working is in line with the track record of the unsurpassed Safe-T-Lawn ball drive rotors.

I think you suffer from clickity clack noise addiction.:blob2:

londonrain
04-22-2007, 07:52 PM
Ever hear of an Orbit rotor sold through the Big Box stores? You got it, a PGP with a different cover. RB is sold through this channel for a reason, to get the name in front of the homeowner so after they attemp the install, they will link the names together when they call in the professional for help - it's called marketing.

You install I-20's and we are arguing about the PGP? Seems like there is more to the story...At least you've not fallen victim to the Pro-Spray or Institutional Spray yet...

As far as the facts go, I stated them earlier with the flavor of the month points...the 5004 is made in the states and assembled in Mexico much like many of the US autos today. Every component in a 5000 rotor is molded in the states, I've toured the manufacturing plants and witnessed it first hand. Many of the molding tools have made in Mexico stamped into them for Customs purposes, but the components are made in the US.

Oh I see, parts made in the US and assembled in Mexico will make a 5004 more reliable head than a PGP....:rolleyes:
While I am at it here is another pic of a 1993 G-type just replaced...

Your first mistake was accepting a PGP, even free this is a risk. The easiest way to fix this problem that will continue, is to replace the PGP's and the MP Rotators (they will fail too) with 5004's from the Bird. You gave advise but no back up with facts...
Still looking for some facts why it was a mistake installing a PGP when I have show 2 pics of Hunter rotors that lasted 14+ years....


Plus the P-series was on a pump system from a lake with no filter......

LCPullman
04-22-2007, 07:54 PM
I've run into a good number of Orbits and I haven't been impressed by reliability. If they are the same design as the Hunter PGP, they are made differently and thus wind up being much worse reliability wise.

From what I have seen around here, the Hunters will last longer than the 5004s. But the 5004s are more attractive to the installer because of features and price.

LCPullman
04-22-2007, 07:58 PM
Your first mistake was accepting a PGP, even free this is a risk. The easiest way to fix this problem that will continue, is to replace the PGP's and the MP Rotators (they will fail too) with 5004's from the Bird.

Accepting PGP's definately would not be a mistake, even if you think that the 5004 is better than the PGP, the PGP is a superb rotor. For the average homeowner, either Hunters or Rainbirds would be an excellent choice.

londonrain
04-22-2007, 08:00 PM
RB is sold through this channel for a reason, to get the name in front of the homeowner so after they attemp the install, they will link the names together when they call in the professional for help - it's called marketing.

and I will tell them Rain Bird rotors are crap, so we will install a head that will last and it is a Hunter...

Wet_Boots
04-22-2007, 08:22 PM
I think you suffer from clickity clack noise addiction.Could be. One other feature of some of the bullet-proof-and-you're-paying-for-it systems I installed were Rainbird 35 series brass impact heads. They're another head I noticed not needing replacing. Of course, by now, they cost a fortune.

Remote Pigtails
04-22-2007, 08:37 PM
I'm a big fan or the impact and have installed a few bucket heads myself. I will argue their distribution from head to end of the spray stream was as good as any rotor on the market today.

Ed G
04-22-2007, 08:44 PM
is that mercedes an irrigation vehicle?

londonrain
04-22-2007, 09:26 PM
is that mercedes an irrigation vehicle?lol
irrigation helps pay for it....

londonrain
04-22-2007, 09:42 PM
I guarantee Rain Bird will be at or near the top in regard to price.... I agree Rain Bird has some nice products but the rotor program is questionable...case in point I service a system at least twice a year that I did in the early 90's in Tryon NC that sits on 99 acres on top of a mountain. The first two RC 12's I installed had been struck by lightening within a few years. I then installed a ESP 24 MC in 97 and on the latest service call it had also been struck even with a 7' grounding rod, the controller lists for $1600 plus some change so I know about nice equipment from Rain Bird...On original install I installed R-50's and T-birds , the r-50s are still working but everyone of the t-birds have been replaced because they had quit rotating, even the full circles, and the system is 17 zones worth of rotors.....

Wet_Boots
04-22-2007, 10:07 PM
I service a system at least twice a year that I did in the early 90's in Tryon NC that sits on 99 acres on top of a mountain. The first two RC 12's I installed had been struck by lightening within a few years.One of the nicest things about the old Imperial Valet controllers, was that the transformer was not under power unless a zone was operating, which helped take the controller out of the line of fire. (not that lightning strikes can't take out anything they desire)

Rotor_Tool
04-22-2007, 11:27 PM
I agree Rain Bird has some nice products but the rotor program is questionable...case in point I service a system at least twice a year that I did in the early 90's in Tryon NC that sits on 99 acres on top of a mountain. The first two RC 12's I installed had been struck by lightening within a few years. I then installed a ESP 24 MC in 97 and on the latest service call it had also been struck even with a 7' grounding rod, the controller lists for $1600 plus some change so I know about nice equipment from Rain Bird...On original install I installed R-50's and T-birds , the r-50s are still working but everyone of the t-birds have been replaced because they had quit rotating, even the full circles, and the system is 17 zones worth of rotors.....

So....we agree to disagree?? No doubt about it, T-Birds were a blunder. Ever see the original movie Frankensten??? I too have seen my share of lightning damage...once I inherited a golf course on a service contract, lightning hit a tree and followed the root to one of the wire path's the energy followed the wires to the controllers in the clubhouse and blew the controllers off the wall then burnt the clubhouse to the ground.

Nice Mercedes! Maybe I should go back to the Hunter rotor for the service revenue?

Mike Leary
04-24-2007, 06:10 PM
So....we agree to disagree?? No doubt about it, T-Birds were a blunder. Ever see the original movie Frankensten??? I too have seen my share of lightning damage...once I inherited a golf course on a service contract, lightning hit a tree and followed the root to one of the wire path's the energy followed the wires to the controllers in the clubhouse and blew the controllers off the wall then burnt the clubhouse to the ground.

Nice Mercedes! Maybe I should go back to the Hunter rotor for the service revenue?

We used T-Birds from the begining...first batch was junk..RB stood behind
them...the lag w/T-Birds was the odd adjustment method..methinks crew
screwed them up...when RB told me it was dropped from the line, I bought
every one the distrib. had! Hank still has some in stock, but the turrets were
one of the coolest ideas ever!

PurpHaze
04-24-2007, 10:40 PM
Maybe you should post an address where everyone can send them to you Mike since they don't seem to be a favorite of most??? :laugh:

Dirty Water
04-25-2007, 02:25 AM
You really drink the Kool-Aid rotor Tool.

I don't want to hear any more "praise" of Rainbird unless your willing to pay me to listen.

Mike Leary
04-25-2007, 05:42 PM
Maybe you should post an address where everyone can send them to you Mike since they don't seem to be a favorite of most??? :laugh:

I have to admit, after one of my leads left, I adjusted those T-Birds every-
where except the direction I wanted! The various turrets were very cool
tho.

CAPT Stream Rotar
04-25-2007, 07:45 PM
T Birds =bogus
Toro rotars=garbage
pgp=best in the biz.....
also special thanks the the rainbird 3500

Ground Master
04-25-2007, 09:00 PM
I've never cared for the pgp

poor nozzles and that damn set screw that seems to get jammed with debris-especially on older heads

CAPT Stream Rotar
04-25-2007, 09:01 PM
what do you fancy Ground master?

TORO PROUDCTS?

DanaMac
04-25-2007, 09:51 PM
I've never cared for the pgp

poor nozzles and that damn set screw that seems to get jammed with debris-especially on older heads

Like I said, the only thing I really like about the PGP is the reliability.

PurpHaze
04-26-2007, 12:59 AM
I have to admit, after one of my leads left, I adjusted those T-Birds everywhere except the direction I wanted! The various turrets were very cool tho.

So you'll only accept the "Tourettes" then? :laugh: