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View Full Version : prodiamine and pendi are trash!


Nathan Robinson
04-24-2007, 07:17 PM
I used them all and diminsion is BY FAR the best on the It also has a slight supressment on reproductive nutlets...(NUTSEDGE) Pay the extra money and give these people what they are paying for. Save on your service calls and add customers when their neighbors call because they have breakthrough.....

cemars
04-24-2007, 08:43 PM
I used them all and diminsion is BY FAR the best on the It also has a slight supressment on reproductive nutlets...(NUTSEDGE) Pay the extra money and give these people what they are paying for. Save on your service calls and add customers when their neighbors call because they have breakthrough.....

:confused:

teeca
04-24-2007, 09:02 PM
i too like dimension, as for any control of nutsedge, i dont recall the label saying anything about it? is there a new lable? i used pendulum for may years, and for the price, you cant beat it. the main reason i switch to dimension is all the new housing addditions be built, i need the post emergent control for the s**ty lawns the builder left behind.

philk17088
04-24-2007, 09:06 PM
I had crap results with dimension. I use only barricade and I only buy 1 pint of acclaim a year now.

Nathan Robinson
04-24-2007, 09:12 PM
barricade prodiamine....SAME THING. No nutsedge control on last years label. On the EC it says it will suppress the reproduction of the (nutlets) up to 50% Nutsedge also comes up from seed before reproductive nutlets come around. Penilum is cheap. The coap has it for like $85.00 for a 2 and a half gallon jug. Its just junk. Diminsin works the best and would put it up against prodiamine any day!

turfsolutions
04-24-2007, 11:16 PM
dimesnion and barricade are both good. Barricade has a longer life, but dimension has its advantages as well.

Grandview
04-25-2007, 06:46 AM
I would switch to Pendi if it was not yellow and stained your clothes and equipment. It is an excellent product.

Turfdoctor1
04-25-2007, 09:36 AM
I used them all and diminsion is BY FAR the best on the It also has a slight supressment on reproductive nutlets...(NUTSEDGE) Pay the extra money and give these people what they are paying for. Save on your service calls and add customers when their neighbors call because they have breakthrough.....

IMO, this is taken way out of context.

Your herbicidal choices should be based on your area and your problematic weeds. If your problematic weed is crabgrass, you almost have to go with prodiamine. the prodiamine is not good for broadleaf control, but as far as crabgrass goes, it is far superior.

So, to say that you aren't giving the customer what they are paying for if you aren't using dimension is way off base. Maybe this is the right choice for you, but not for everyone.

profigala
04-25-2007, 03:12 PM
one of our worst years for crab grass was the year we used dimension. So for my area i would have to completely dissagree. I agree with the guy about pendi. If it did not stain everything we would prob still use it, but since prices dropped for barricade that is my chemical of choice.

Nathan Robinson
04-25-2007, 03:15 PM
Pendi stains but the new pendi (pendulum) does not! Prodiamine is so not even close to being as effective on crab. Prodiamine has an 86% control wherefor Diminsion has a 97% plus the post-m affects up to the fifth tiller. I am just wondering where you got your info on barricade being more effective on crab??????????????

Turfdoctor1
04-25-2007, 05:08 PM
Pendi stains but the new pendi (pendulum) does not! Prodiamine is so not even close to being as effective on crab. Prodiamine has an 86% control wherefor Diminsion has a 97% plus the post-m affects up to the fifth tiller. I am just wondering where you got your info on barricade being more effective on crab??????????????


those #'s are completely dependent on what study you look at, what climate, what timing, rate, etc. I spent about 10 minutes and found about 10different studies involving crabgrass control with prodiamine or dimension. In some, prodiamine performed better, in some, dimension performed better.

Here, unless you are splitting applications, and no one in my area does, the life of prodiamine is much longer. therefore, it is a far better product in my area and in my opinion.

heritage
04-25-2007, 05:09 PM
Pendi stains but the new pendi (pendulum) does not! Prodiamine is so not even close to being as effective on crab. Prodiamine has an 86% control wherefor Diminsion has a 97% plus the post-m affects up to the fifth tiller. I am just wondering where you got your info on barricade being more effective on crab??????????????

Nate,

Sounds like you are buying into what the sales people @ those seminars, are telling you.

For crabgrass, Prodiamine is #1 based on my "real world" testing in the field.

I have used Dimension in the past, but it only lasts 8 weeks tops...must split app. it for season long control in Jersey. Further south I would even think triple app of Dimension, if you could stay within the annual application limit....That would be a lot of $$$$$$ for the folks selling Dimension.

It is more cost effective for me to apply Prodimine @ the 5 month control rate for crabgrass, ONCE a season. No breakthrough either, if we get some Mad river rainstorm in early August.

The Post-Emergence of the Dimension is good, BUT only @ the High rate, if you want to kill it:)

Don't always believe the Salesman Nate, even if backed by University studies.

Remember who funds those Universities....The salesman's Boss.

Ask the pro's here what works for them in the real world.

Many of us are not guessing what works, we already know from real world testing.

Think....

Pete D.

Nathan Robinson
04-25-2007, 05:21 PM
Split apps are far better effective. salesman for diminsion? Never met one. Just the guys from Tenbarge trying to push prodiamine. Diminsion in split apps are better in MY opinion. Not only are they great for crabgrass but look into all the broadleafs they control. Diminsion is just good stuff. If applied early enough it can help control poa anua as well. Prodiamine does the same thing in that aspect so I dont know why I just said that:hammerhead:
I used prodiamine last year as an applicator and we had some breakthrough. I used pendi about 4 years ago and was not at all impressed. My friend Tom just swithched to Diminsion from prodiamine because the amount of drive he used last year. At $100.00 a lb. its worth paying the extra amount and using Diminsion. Spraying in a heavy rate for the post-m?!?!?!?!? Not even remotely close to being true. I applied a lawn last week with crab in its 2nd tiller and checked on it yesterday and its (not wilting) but def showing signs of hating diminsion! Prodiamine just cant compete when your wrapping your round 1s up and crab has allready showed its ugly face!

bntt68
04-25-2007, 05:39 PM
Prodiamine blows away dimension for premergent control in my area. One application lasts the whole year. You also have to take in consideration the person who started this post said the only way to control wild violet is to spray the weed UNDER the leaf and that Stickers or Surfactants are a waste of money. LOL

Nathan Robinson
04-25-2007, 05:42 PM
looks like you need to go back to 4th grade and learn to read. What I said is wild violets are a hard to control weed and in order to kill them is to spray them under the gloss coated leaf for control without the sticker. then learn to spell diminsion when you hit the 5th grade

bntt68
04-25-2007, 06:09 PM
looks like you need to go back to 4th grade and learn to read. What I said is wild violets are a hard to control weed and in order to kill them is to spray them under the gloss coated leaf for control without the sticker. then learn to spell diminsion when you hit the 5th grade

Stickers are a waste of money and only beneficial with wild violets. On wild violets make sure you spray them under the leaf. The top of the leaf has a waxy substance on them and can be hard to control. Just use a basic 3way. Horsepower is very good. Prob the best that riverdale has to offer. I use a 3way and see very good results. Nathan

Are you saying you did not write the above post? By the way you spell it DIMENSION not Diminsion. LOL

Nathan Robinson
04-25-2007, 06:20 PM
scroll up. you say I said the ONLY way to control wild violets are to spray them under there leaves. If you read closely I say they are a hard to control weed and they have a glossy coat and the best way to control is spraying under the leaves. This meaning soak the plant! I am saying I wrote the above post. I said the same things. Three times now! Stickers are as much garbage as prodiamine. Let me ask you something. Do you ever see tru-green lawns have crab breakthrough?!?!? of course! what do they use?!?!? Thats right, you guessed it! PRODIAMINE! What about Weedman?!?!? Correct again, shitty lawns using prodiamine! Lets venture even further. Look at all of your Natures Pro lawns. Next to nothing is there breakthrough and guess what?!?!?!? They use DIMINSION! dOES tRU gREEN USE STICKERS?!?!? YOU BET YOUR ASS THEY DO AND LOOK AT THE BROADLEAFS GROWING RIGHT UP THERE LAWN POSTING FLAGS YOU SEE NEXT TIME YOU ARE OUT!

cemars
04-25-2007, 06:23 PM
scroll up. you say I said the ONLY way to control wild violets are to spray them under there leaves. If you read closely I say they are a hard to control weed and they have a glossy coat and the best way to control is spraying under the leaves. This meaning soak the plant! I am saying I wrote the above post. I said the same things. Three times now! Stickers are as much garbage as prodiamine. Let me ask you something. Do you ever see tru-green lawns have crab breakthrough?!?!? of course! what do they use?!?!? Thats right, you guessed it! PRODIAMINE! What about Weedman?!?!? Correct again, shitty lawns using prodiamine! Lets venture even further. Look at all of your Natures Pro lawns. Next to nothing is there breakthrough and guess what?!?!?!? They use DIMINSION! dOES tRU gREEN USE STICKERS?!?!? YOU BET YOUR ASS THEY DO AND LOOK AT THE BROADLEAFS GROWING RIGHT UP THERE LAWN POSTING FLAGS YOU SEE NEXT TIME YOU ARE OUT!


You are an idiot.

teeca
04-25-2007, 06:29 PM
I would switch to Pendi if it was not yellow and stained your clothes and equipment. It is an excellent product.

go with pendulum aqua cap, just tried some last week, no odor or staining (so far)

Nathan Robinson
04-25-2007, 06:32 PM
Cemars...idiot? If you cant agrre with that you dont understand turf and should venture into the bug business. Terminex is always looking for people without a clue.

bntt68
04-25-2007, 06:33 PM
It Is Spelled Dimension Not Diminsion. Lol Typical Newbie

Nathan Robinson
04-25-2007, 06:36 PM
Thats too funny. Foot in mouth! Typical newbie. Years away from that old time!

teeca
04-25-2007, 06:38 PM
use an ester based herbicide like cool power with no surfactant, and it will kill them the fist time (in most cases) and quit trying to use an amine formulation to do it. it not that hard to kill with the right timing and herbicide.

Nathan Robinson
04-25-2007, 06:39 PM
cool power is good but which do you prefer with these warm temps? cool or horse power? I think cool power is just a little pricey!

Nathan Robinson
04-25-2007, 06:40 PM
cool power is good but which do you prefer with these warm temps? cool or horse power? I think cool power is just a little pricey!

bntt68
04-25-2007, 06:44 PM
Nathan ? How do you spell Dimension? LOL

Nathan Robinson
04-25-2007, 06:53 PM
Can you use that in a sentence for me? wait! I will..... Dimension::::::
Dimension is far better effective than prodiamine.
Dimension!

teeca
04-25-2007, 06:55 PM
cool power is good but which do you prefer with these warm temps? cool or horse power? I think cool power is just a little pricey!

i am still using cool power, temps are still about right, as far as using something else, well i know that cool power is an awsom product, like your dimension is, they might cost more, but there worth it. i will spot spray cool power in the summer, or use trimec.

Nathan Robinson
04-25-2007, 06:57 PM
Cool power is blue and mixes up to a milky liquid if I remember correctly. i used it about 3 years ago. I just remember is wasnt cheap.

bntt68
04-25-2007, 07:05 PM
looks like you need to go back to 4th grade and learn to read. What I said is wild violets are a hard to control weed and in order to kill them is to spray them under the gloss coated leaf for control without the sticker. then learn to spell diminsion when you hit the 5th grade

Can you use that in a sentence for me? wait! I will..... Dimension::::::
Dimension is far better effective than prodiamine.
Dimension! Nathan

Congrats Nathan, Hooked on Phonics worked well for you.

teeca
04-25-2007, 07:07 PM
whats expensive? i like to get in and get out and not worry about the results. had several customers that were using other companies and could never kill the clover, 1 shot of cool power and it was done. customers about s**t their paints. 4 years and couldn't kill it, thats the difference in being small and using a product that works and being large and not having the choice, that and sending one of there tech's out with a LOADED gun (that being cool power) and f**king it up like they do, if they even do the application.

Nathan Robinson
04-25-2007, 07:08 PM
there is a comeback rule of no longer than 2 mins here on lawnsite. It took you like 10 mins or so. After 10 mins of pondering on what you could say thats all you came up with.???>....... ok, your right ...Hooked on phonicks did indeed work well for me.

teeca
04-25-2007, 07:12 PM
time out!!!!!!! guy's, i need to get another beer:drinkup:

bntt68
04-25-2007, 07:19 PM
whats expensive? i like to get in and get out and not worry about the results. had several customers that were using other companies and could never kill the clover, 1 shot of cool power and it was done. customers about s**t their paints. 4 years and couldn't kill it, thats the difference in being small and using a product that works and being large and not having the choice, that and sending one of there tech's out with a LOADED gun (that being cool power) and f**king it up like they do, if they even do the application.

Very well said TEECA!!!

vegomatic40
04-26-2007, 07:08 AM
Mr. Nathan, Please try to refrain from making blanket-statements such as "Do you ever see tru-green lawns have crab breakthrough?!?!? of course! what do they use?!?!? Thats right, you guessed it! PRODIAMINE!"
You are correct in assuming that they use the product. The problem is, you have no idea of the rates they use. On nearly every product they use the minimum rate is applied and yes they do a "split app." For example: Let's say a Trugreen technician is given a new-sale in early April in your location-Indiana. He goes out with a tank-mix solution of fertilizer, broadleaf control and prodiamine all mixed at minimum label rates. The prodiamine in his tank is intended to be applied as the first of two applications. Five to six weeks later he returns for Round-2. This time it is too late to apply the second half of the prodiamine app. as he is already doing his Round-3 apps. and his tanks are loaded for Rd.3. What do you suppose he puts on that lawn? You guessed it, Fert/broadleaf control if the customer is lucky. Breakthrough is sure to follow. Being a large company that is marketing oriented comes at a huge price, ultimately the consumer pays for it.
For the technical stuff, Dimension is a fine product with a excellent reputation in the industry. Used improperly it can also give poor results. My biggest issue is the additional cost/acre for the "gimmick" of getting crab-control up to the 2-3 tiller stage. That, coupled with less residual control (an important feature here in the south) and more root pruning of desireable turf make it a less attractive product for me.
While I've used Pendimethalin, Dithiopyr, Prodiamine, Betasan , Atrazine, Simazine as pre-emergents in the past, I'm sure my experience pales in comparison (26 years) to you since you have "used them all". Golly gee Nathan please enlighten us all with your vast storehouse of pseudo-knowldege.

Plant Buyer 83
04-26-2007, 09:08 AM
Have any of you guys ever used Manage (halosulfuron), I'm not sure where you are spraying so check label for crop uses, but it works great for Nutsedge.

heritage
04-26-2007, 09:40 AM
Have any of you guys ever used Manage (halosulfuron), I'm not sure where you are spraying so check label for crop uses, but it works great for Nutsedge.

For Nutsedge/Nutgrass it's my Favorite.

Lesco sells Sedgehammer....Same AI. Great product.

Pete D.

Victor
04-26-2007, 09:59 AM
Mr. Nathan, Please try to refrain from making blanket-statements such as "Do you ever see tru-green lawns have crab breakthrough?!?!? of course! what do they use?!?!? Thats right, you guessed it! PRODIAMINE!"
You are correct in assuming that they use the product. The problem is, you have no idea of the rates they use. On nearly every product they use the minimum rate is applied and yes they do a "split app." For example: Let's say a Trugreen technician is given a new-sale in early April in your location-Indiana. He goes out with a tank-mix solution of fertilizer, broadleaf control and prodiamine all mixed at minimum label rates. The prodiamine in his tank is intended to be applied as the first of two applications. Five to six weeks later he returns for Round-2. This time it is too late to apply the second half of the prodiamine app. as he is already doing his Round-3 apps. and his tanks are loaded for Rd.3. What do you suppose he puts on that lawn? You guessed it, Fert/broadleaf control if the customer is lucky. Breakthrough is sure to follow. Being a large company that is marketing oriented comes at a huge price, ultimately the consumer pays for it.
For the technical stuff, Dimension is a fine product with a excellent reputation in the industry. Used improperly it can also give poor results. My biggest issue is the additional cost/acre for the "gimmick" of getting crab-control up to the 2-3 tiller stage. That, coupled with less residual control (an important feature here in the south) and more root pruning of desireable turf make it a less attractive product for me.
While I've used Pendimethalin, Dithiopyr, Prodiamine, Betasan , Atrazine, Simazine as pre-emergents in the past, I'm sure my experience pales in comparison (26 years) to you since you have "used them all". Golly gee Nathan please enlighten us all with your vast storehouse of pseudo-knowldege.

Here, here. Well said Vegomatic.

Nathan Robinson
04-26-2007, 10:01 AM
Veg 40. Its going to be a hot summer and atthe age you are I would be aware of the heat stroke possibilities. Atrazine? You simple guy you. THATS FOR ORNAMENTAL BED WEED CONTROL! My mother knows that. As for Tru Green. When I get a Tru Green lawn I usually ask for the invoice so I can work with what has allready been applied. In most cases Prodiamine is applied at 2.7 grams of a.i. per k. If I am not mistaking thats a lb. per k. And even more so thats a full app..With YOUR vast knowledge I am sure you are running no less than 15 full time fert riggs with all the years you have been in business. Anything shy of that is pathetic. Lets just say Tru Green was applying split apps of that. Then with the post m activity of Dithiopyr makes it the better choice. So, I am wanting you to enlighten me even more about pre-ms NOT labeled for turf use. With the years under your belt they should kick you off here for lacking such knowledge

Nathan Robinson
04-26-2007, 10:18 AM
:sleeping: Victor. Geez where does Lawnsite find you guys?????? There should be a rule that qualifies you. Your a waste of space on here and you said the same **** the guy with the dice did. Just repeat everything you see on here and act like you know whats going on. Noone will ever notice!

Grassmechanic
04-26-2007, 11:09 AM
Well, for arguments sake, I use Dimension with great results on CG. An MSU study for my area favors Dimension over Barricade. That may not be true depending on your area. There are many variables needed to determine what pre-em (dimension or barricade) to use. My advice is to use what works for you, your conditions, and what you are comfortable with.

Nathan Robinson
04-26-2007, 11:21 AM
Mike............................A SMART MAN IN THE TURF INDUSRTY

Turfdoctor1
04-26-2007, 11:46 AM
this is hilarious. how can a thread on pre-emergent choice run 5 pages in a days time.

On the first page, I stated my disagreement with Nathan. He bashed me to the point that I question my own logic. But, I'm glad to see that most everyone else agrees with me.

Nathan, I think the point that you are missing is what I already stated--not every situation is the same. For you, Dimension may be the best product. But, to sit here and tell all of these successful professionals that they are "not giving their customers what the are paying for," really pushes people's buttons. Not only is it quite rude, but when you are wrong it borders on lunacy.

LwnmwrMan22
04-26-2007, 12:05 PM
Mr. Robinson... or others....

In a different thread, "Dow Agro's Dimension 2EW", you stated that Dimension is to be run at 1 oz / 1000 sq ft.

On page 6 of 15 off of the label, it shows the programs numbered 1, 2 and 3.

Program number 1 is listed for relatively high cut grass, e.g. home owner yards.

I would say that 95% of us here fall into that program.

The northern tier of states, it's at 1 pint / acre, transition zone is 1.5 pints per acre and southern tier of states, it's at 2 pints per acre, the costal south split apps at 1.33 pints / acre, each app.

Last time I did my math (10th grade) a pint was 16 ounces. Even at 2 pints per acre, that's only 32 oz, less than the 1 oz / 1000.

Can you provide a link where you're seeing 1 oz / 1000 sq ft???

Nathan Robinson
04-26-2007, 12:24 PM
All states except NY and parts of States not listed in transition, South Coastal south or West. Program 1- 0.75 fl. ounces per k. program 2- 1.12 fl. ounces per k program 3- 1.5 fl. ounces per k. In our Climatically diversed region it is 1.0 fl. ounces per k. Have the label in hand. Page 6......As for everyone who agrees with you there are about 4 0r 5. Me saying that people arent giving their customers what they pay for is not exactly what I said. They expect you to give them best control! Again, in MY opinion dimension is far more effective and when you start spending alot of money on Drive you will see what I am talking about. You make an even better point. Thats less than an ounce per k. In some cases thats true. As for me bashing you, I dont bash you. I disagree in a strong way. Look up Dimension vs. Prodiamine. look at the same things IN YOUR TRANSITION that I see. The link where it says 1 ounce per k!? Refer to page 6 on the label and you will see it on the bottom of the chart. Borders of lunacy. Your a comedian and a lawn tech. Thats one hell of a combination.

vegomatic40
04-26-2007, 12:34 PM
Poor Nathan...You've clearly stepped into the deep end of the pool when you need to stay over in the 2' deep section with your water-wings. Try something new before attempting to make a point (or wear a hat to cover it up). Read the label on Atrazine 4L. You and "mom" maybe surprised at it's wide range of use. Just because you used this product in the past for ornamental bed weed control it hardly limits the chemical for this use only. Atrazine in its various forms is a R.U. product and sadly, somehow your state has qualified you as worthy to apply it without direct supervision. Since you simply ignored my statement that "Dimension used improperly can also give results" it may be beyond comprehension that Prodiamine can offer similar efficacy in a given situation. When the product is put down early enough, at the proper rates, it offers excellent control of crabgrass with minimum stress to turf. Just as a refresher,I re-read the label on Dimension 40 WSP and saw no mention of nutsedge coontrol. Maybe your evidence, much like your thought process is anecdotal and bears little resemblence to actual facts.
Yes I've been in the industry for many years and I'm fully aware of the dangers of heat stroke. It's one of the reasons I spend much of my time in the office tending to administrative duties etc. While I'm far short of your benchmark of "15 fert rigs" I am fairly proud of my fleet of 6 trucks (5 lawn and 1 tree/shrub). I'm even prouder of my customer base of more than 1650
customers and the service we provide for them. The last thing I want to do is get into some kind of *issing match with a relative newbie to this site but, if goaded I can go toe-to-toe with all but a few members that visit this forum.

Nathan Robinson
04-26-2007, 12:47 PM
poor me. nutsedge control and suppress is 2 different things. Atrazine is used in woodlace as a pre-m in beds. Never seen it on a fert! I dont think you have either. 1650 customers. Nice. You have a nice fleet. I hope to be there in less that 30 years though. Thats the difference. deep end of the pool? funny. Your old and unaware. you mention what you thought were all of the pre-ms lik Ayrazine and all that and never once mentioned gluten or glararicin or anything along those lines. you mentioned some **** that is old news and is used COMMONLY in beds. Thought process and actual facts. The facts ere this simple old man. WHAT DOES THE LAB TESTS SAY?!?!?!? DIMENSION IS FAR BETTER EFFECTIVE. period the end! Reguardless what you may think. You just said your not in the field. Your too old and thats fine. How you determine dimension is not as effective without applicating is a thought process that isnt clicking for you. Again, Control and suppress are 2 different things. Pull out your dusty webster and look them up. Its on this years label.....

vegomatic40
04-26-2007, 02:01 PM
The last bastion of the ignorant and ill informed...name calling. I still get out and produce and inspect on a regular basis as I much prefer to do that vs. staying desk-bound. Monday I sprayed a apartment complex by hand, 287,000 sq. ft. will still gas in the tank to do more. In fact I have little trouble in stating that I could smoke you and leave you under a shade tree with your tongue hanging out any day of the week still. Since you also equate time put in with the amount of equipment etc. let me also state that I have only been independent for the past 7 yrs. I've worked for big guys, little guys and in between guys over the years. No I did not mention the corn-gluten as I prefer to apply products that actually work vs. organic hocus-pocus BS. Herbicides commonly used in beds? Yes,and commonly used in turf as well. Once again READ THE LABELS. I'm done with this mental midget punk.

Nathan Robinson
04-26-2007, 02:18 PM
Your ignorant! corn gluten eats the seed inside out. As for it not working really shows your intellegence. You never used it. so, it would take you 4.78 hours to spray that. Thats if you sprayed non-stop. Punk? why? because you found the label that states 1 ounce on the same page 6 that you said it didnt state that. Accute toxicity causes brain problems. Spray the chemicals in the soil, dont wear it. Work circles around a young military guy? Dont think so! To high speed for your low drag! Have fun fighting breakthrough! You should really look into corn gluten. Chemicals halt the germination and the seed can lay dormant for up to ten years depending on weather conditions. Gluten has enzymes that eat the Apical meristem and leaf primordia! Research your stuff before you bash products your unfamiliar with!

Victor
04-26-2007, 03:18 PM
:sleeping: Victor. Geez where does Lawnsite find you guys?????? There should be a rule that qualifies you. Your a waste of space on here and you said the same **** the guy with the dice did. Just repeat everything you see on here and act like you know whats going on. Noone will ever notice!

ROTFL... What time are you due back in "Boy's Town" Nathan? To come into this forum and make such a broad statement (that Barricade is ineffective) tells me and anyone else who reads your babble, all we need to know about how seriously we should consider anything you say.

I'm sure an overwhelming majority of members in this forum would take Vegomatic's word on anything to do with this industry, over your word. I know I sure would.

You do realize that respect is earned, don't you? You're never going to get it here, when you're acting like a kid at the grocery store who's parents won't buy him the candy bar he wants.

Speaking of credibility... How embarrassing (for a self-proclaimed expert) that you didn't even know how to spell "Dimension," until your were shown how to correctly do so. You think you would have read the word on enough bags over the years to at least get that right young man. By the way... It might not hurt to also work on your diction. Your posts are difficult to understand.

In closing... While I have used, and still use Dimension under certain circumstances (such as customers who are late sign-ups), I'm a big fan of Barricade. I use it on my customer's lawns with excellent results.

When you took on Vegomatic and challenged his knowledge, I knew you were in for it. You brought a knife to a gun-fight son.

cemars
04-26-2007, 05:15 PM
While looking at Nathan's biography to verify his obvious lack of experience (a whole 3 years), I came across an option to "block" the post of any member who you find to be particularly annoying or that has little useful to say. For the first time in many years on lawn site I have finally used this option and now understand why it is available.

Nathan Robinson
04-26-2007, 06:43 PM
Annoying. But right!

Victor
04-26-2007, 08:14 PM
While looking at Nathan's biography to verify his obvious lack of experience (a whole 3 years), I came across an option to "block" the post of any member who you find to be particularly annoying or that has little useful to say. For the first time in many years on lawn site I have finally used this option and now understand why it is available.

Please tell me how to do that Cemars.

MnLefty
04-26-2007, 08:47 PM
http://brentroos.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/troll.jpg

Nathan Robinson
04-26-2007, 08:56 PM
When crabgrass is a problem for you, refer to this! Im done with this thread.....Nathan

cemars
04-26-2007, 09:53 PM
Please tell me how to do that Cemars.

If you click on a members name it will show you a brief biography and options to view their past post, etc. More importantly there is an option to add someone to your "ignore list". It works because I can see that the newbie Nathan has posted something ( more blah blah blah no doubt) but it blocks the entire post! A feature I never thought I would use but in this case, priceless...

J Hisch
04-26-2007, 10:01 PM
Nathan, I thought you are a organic company? then why the use of conventional pesticides?

philk17088
04-26-2007, 10:02 PM
. Atrazine? You simple guy you. THATS FOR ORNAMENTAL BED WEED CONTROL! My mother knows that.
OK thats enough to figure out Nathan doesn't know his posterior orifice from an excavation in terra firma.

tremor
04-26-2007, 10:05 PM
Nathan said: Chemicals halt the germination and the seed can lay dormant for up to ten years depending on weather conditions.

Nate,

None of the pre-emergent products that you have discussed "halt the germination" of weed seeds. Rather a germinating seedling (that is susceptible) absorbs a lethal dose & dies. This is the primary fate of most of the herbicide.

Some seeds can remain viable for much longer than 10 years.

Elsewhere you proclaimed that spreader stickers are a waste of money. I agree that some of the cheap stickers aren't worth using all of the time. However some weeds cannot be killed without the use of advanced surfactants. Most all herbicides can be improved (often dramatically) by the use of proper surfactants.

These unsubstantiated & inaccurate broad based claims are a discredit to your credibility & this message board.

Nathan Robinson
04-26-2007, 10:09 PM
Jason, Organics are implemented in my program. Can you find a customer that will pay $20.00 per k for corn gluten? Thats what it would cost you alone. Its Organic fertilizers, reducing the pesticides that are not always neccesary. are you sure you want to argue the more beneficial factor of organics over chemical fertilizers? :nono:

J Hisch
04-26-2007, 10:19 PM
I have only found you talking about conventional materials, so just checking, with a name of Organics in it how do you explain the factor that you are basically doing everything a conventional company is doing. I think you just want to pass your name along like you are offering something better, but as your bottom line decreases you will revert to conventional material. or offer a very limited use of organic material. thus just becoming like 95 percent of lawn care companies. Good luck!

J Hisch
04-26-2007, 10:32 PM
Just making mention of the fact you call your self organic and just throw a app or 2 down of Organic fertilizer and use convetional pesticides to solve the real issues people hire lawn companies.

teeca
04-26-2007, 10:37 PM
i talked to purdue, and they said that using organics (fert) has actualy caused more problems, ie. disease, then using a 'conventional' program this came from latin? he is the professor that gives lectures on turf disease at purdue. i spoke with him at the green expo in indy, and he was in the prosses of publishing the findings. i thought about an organic fert plan, but there's no way i'm going to buy a bag of fert for $40 and it only cover 8k, talk about sticking it to your customers! i'm quite happy with my fert program.

cemars
04-26-2007, 10:43 PM
I see that Nathan posted, did it say something like ...Blah blah blah blah blah?

Nathan Robinson
04-26-2007, 10:55 PM
Where do you get that I only use one or 2 apps of organics? Just wondering where you gather your not so accurate info there Jason. Doing everything conventially? again, Where did and when did I say that?

Shades of Green LService
04-26-2007, 11:21 PM
Jason, Organics are implemented in my program. Can you find a customer that will pay $20.00 per k for corn gluten? Thats what it would cost you alone. Its Organic fertilizers, reducing the pesticides that are not always neccesary. are you sure you want to argue the more beneficial factor of organics over chemical fertilizers? :nono:

I have a customer that is paying close to $17 for corn gluten because she is afraid for her dogs, and she's getting another hit on monday. Certain people will go for it if they really want it and you can sell it. I'ts def. not for everyone, but are willing, especially if they are animal WACKO's.:) Good Luck this year.

Shades of Green LService
04-26-2007, 11:28 PM
Nate,

Sounds like you are buying into what the sales people @ those seminars, are telling you.

For crabgrass, Prodiamine is #1 based on my "real world" testing in the field.

I have used Dimension in the past, but it only lasts 8 weeks tops...must split app. it for season long control in Jersey. Further south I would even think triple app of Dimension, if you could stay within the annual application limit....That would be a lot of $$$$$$ for the folks selling Dimension.

It is more cost effective for me to apply Prodimine @ the 5 month control rate for crabgrass, ONCE a season. No breakthrough either, if we get some Mad river rainstorm in early August.

The Post-Emergence of the Dimension is good, BUT only @ the High rate, if you want to kill it:)

Don't always believe the Salesman Nate, even if backed by University studies.

Remember who funds those Universities....The salesman's Boss.

Ask the pro's here what works for them in the real world.

Many of us are not guessing what works, we already know from real world testing.

Think....

Pete D.

Pete
Whats your take on broadleaf control using prodiamine. This is my first time using it, i've always used Dimension. I'm having a hell of a time with chickweed coming through. I think it's carry over from last year and the warm winter we had. Any thoughts?

NattyLawn
04-26-2007, 11:47 PM
i talked to purdue, and they said that using organics (fert) has actualy caused more problems, ie. disease, then using a 'conventional' program this came from latin? he is the professor that gives lectures on turf disease at purdue. i spoke with him at the green expo in indy, and he was in the prosses of publishing the findings. i thought about an organic fert plan, but there's no way i'm going to buy a bag of fert for $40 and it only cover 8k, talk about sticking it to your customers! i'm quite happy with my fert program.

I seriously doubt this. Since starting to work for an organic based company, I've sprayed fungicides twice in the last 3 years. Both on properties with customers abusing the irrigation schedules. A lot of university studies are skewed by the people doing the funding. It doesn't matter if that comes from Purdue, Penn State, etc.(Looks like this was already posted)

Also, CGM is not for everyone but I'd say 15% of our customers do get it and pay for it they do.

Nathan Robinson
04-27-2007, 01:34 AM
cemars. Its going to be hot tomarrow. I am worried about you in your old days. Drink water, stay cool and beat the heat.

heritage
04-27-2007, 02:40 AM
Pete
Whats your take on broadleaf control using prodiamine. This is my first time using it, i've always used Dimension. I'm having a hell of a time with chickweed coming through. I think it's carry over from last year and the warm winter we had. Any thoughts?


Hi Shades,

Prodiamine is for grassy weeds. Not at all a good product for broadleaves.

Chickweed is a winter annual and germinates in the Fall.

If you are Not doing any fall seeding, you could put down Pre-M with or without fert. for your Sept app. for the chickweed problem.

OR you could wait until mid to late october, just before leaf fall of the trees, and spray your Post-Emergent herbicide(this will kill the newely emerged chickweed B 4 it goes to seed and that helps break the cycle).....any late August - Sept overseeding would in no way be supressed or injured by the late post herbicide app.

When I did use Dimension I really did not pay attention to any broadleaf supression.......I used the product as it was Pre and Post for Crab. I will tell you at the rate I applied it for Northern Turf, it had NO post-emergence value, from what I saw. Digging deeper on that product, I learned it did not have a long half life in the soil, and needed to split app.

That would not work for my program as 1st app is fert only based on soil test from previous late November, and 3rd app. is a rotation of either Mach II or Merit, as most of my lawns are in sunny locations with many of the trees and shrubs Jap. and other beetles in the White Grub Complex love. Sod webworm is bad in my area also. So a single, long lasting Pre- Emergence for Crab is a must.

I have the broadleaf issue pretty much under control too. I see a few when I do my app. 3 in Late June/Early July and spot spray them, along with any Early breakthrough Crab along walks...Though very little. Was using Trimec Plus, and when that runs out, I will use their Q 4.

I feel kinda lucky to have a program that works for me.....Only took me 22 Years LOL. (I'm still learning)

I will say too that Pendimethlin, Barricade and Dimension are all very good products......None of them trash for sure.

Decide what will work best for you :)

Pete D.

Nathan Robinson
04-27-2007, 02:45 AM
Maybe I should have said that diminsion is better in my opinion. People blew this crap way out of proportion.

heritage
04-27-2007, 03:01 AM
Maybe I should have said that diminsion is better in my opinion. People blew this crap way out of proportion.

Nate,

That makes some sense. I would not bash good products if I were you.

Learn from this. Your passion may help you become a good grass man someday. Work on your people skills, listening skills and attitude.

Pete D.

Nathan Robinson
04-27-2007, 03:04 AM
pete....nevermind........SWALLOWING REAL F N HARD!

teeca
04-27-2007, 07:51 AM
I seriously doubt this. Since starting to work for an organic based company, I've sprayed fungicides twice in the last 3 years. Both on properties with customers abusing the irrigation schedules. A lot of university studies are skewed by the people doing the funding. It doesn't matter if that comes from Purdue, Penn State, etc.(Looks like this was already posted)

Also, CGM is not for everyone but I'd say 15% of our customers do get it and pay for it they do.

i understand about the swaying vote... and organic is just another tool in the tool box. people get excited about 'trying to do their part' in the preservation of nature, and if their willing to buy it, then so be it. jmo

bntt68
04-28-2007, 12:19 AM
Maybe I should have said that diminsion is better in my opinion. People blew this crap way out of proportion.

Its DIMENSION Nathan!!!!

Nathan Robinson
04-28-2007, 12:32 AM
No. Your wrong. Prodiamine and pendi are the best. I was so wrong. How could I ever have thought this? Maybe because multiple lab tests prove the far better effectiveness of dimension. This whole thread was great. I pissed people off by just saying dimension is better. The truth is they know it but there stuck in there OLD ways. I need something else to do in my free time outside of educating old guys about there industry that they have been in for so long.

Shades of Green LService
04-29-2007, 11:13 AM
Hi Shades,

Prodiamine is for grassy weeds. Not at all a good product for broadleaves.

Chickweed is a winter annual and germinates in the Fall.

If you are Not doing any fall seeding, you could put down Pre-M with or without fert. for your Sept app. for the chickweed problem.

OR you could wait until mid to late october, just before leaf fall of the trees, and spray your Post-Emergent herbicide(this will kill the newely emerged chickweed B 4 it goes to seed and that helps break the cycle).....any late August - Sept overseeding would in no way be supressed or injured by the late post herbicide app.

When I did use Dimension I really did not pay attention to any broadleaf supression.......I used the product as it was Pre and Post for Crab. I will tell you at the rate I applied it for Northern Turf, it had NO post-emergence value, from what I saw. Digging deeper on that product, I learned it did not have a long half life in the soil, and needed to split app.

That would not work for my program as 1st app is fert only based on soil test from previous late November, and 3rd app. is a rotation of either Mach II or Merit, as most of my lawns are in sunny locations with many of the trees and shrubs Jap. and other beetles in the White Grub Complex love. Sod webworm is bad in my area also. So a single, long lasting Pre- Emergence for Crab is a must.

I have the broadleaf issue pretty much under control too. I see a few when I do my app. 3 in Late June/Early July and spot spray them, along with any Early breakthrough Crab along walks...Though very little. Was using Trimec Plus, and when that runs out, I will use their Q 4.

I feel kinda lucky to have a program that works for me.....Only took me 22 Years LOL. (I'm still learning)

I will say too that Pendimethlin, Barricade and Dimension are all very good products......None of them trash for sure.

Decide what will work best for you :)

Pete D.

Pete-
What was the ratio you used w/ Trimec Plus? I was doing 1-2 oz. p/gallon and found that repeat hits were necessary.Thanks

heritage
04-29-2007, 09:11 PM
Hi Jay,

In the backpack sprayer I use 4 Oz. per gallon for spot w/ the Trimec Plus. The Label rate is 3 oz per 1,000. Spray to point of runoff w/the backpack when spot treating w/ this product.


Pete D.

americanlawn
04-29-2007, 09:39 PM
Same here - we paid the extra price for Dimension. Tends not to leach as fast as Pre M????

Shades of Green LService
04-29-2007, 11:16 PM
Hi Jay,

In the backpack sprayer I use 4 Oz. per gallon for spot w/ the Trimec Plus. The Label rate is 3 oz per 1,000. Spray to point of runoff w/the backpack when spot treating w/ this product.


Pete D.

Hey pete-
Do you ever have discoloring of turf? That seems a little high, no?