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View Full Version : SCAG Engine Replacement/Swap


buzzard86
04-25-2007, 10:22 PM
Hi -
This thread is a follow up to a post that I made earlier in the week. In the interim, I thought that I may have found a nice Encore mower, but it was sold before I could close the deal so I'm back to my original plan.

Quickly, I've got a Kawasaki FB460V on my current Ransome deck with a bad variable speed pulley (ie only one forward speed). I found a nice 48" Scag deck with a shot motor, on to which I would like to swap my motor. The blown motor on the Scag is a Kawasaki FC420V. I can get the Scag for $350. With that in mind, here are my questions:

1. Do you know of any reason why these engines would not be swappable?
2. Is the difference in HP a problem? I believe that my engine is 12.5 and the blown engine was 14.0. No plans for a velke or anything... mower will be used residentially on <1 acre.
3. The Scag has an electric blade engage. My ransome does not. I could not tell exactly where the wiring ran to beneath the chassis. Is the electic PTO powered off of the pulley somehow of does the engine need to have a source of electic?
4. What do you think about the price? Deck looked solid with no apparently deformations, cracks, welds, etc. Spindles seemed tight. Guy selling it said that the gearbox works great. It's belt driven so there are no hydros to worry about.

My Ransome is quite old, so I don't have any of the fancy safety stuff that's on the Scag. I'd love to move up to the Scag and my current motor is strong, so I'm hoping that this is possible. Appreciate any and all info. I have to move in the Scag in the next day or two so I'm eagerly awaiting your comments. Thanks!

pugs
04-25-2007, 11:36 PM
You would need to either add a charging system for an electric clutch to your engine if that is possible...or get a different engine for that scag.

I never really looked into whats involved but on those older singles to run a clutch without a battery they had a large capacitor and a voltage regulator outside of the engine along with the coil under the flywheel. You may need a new flywheel as well since yours may not have magnets under...

Motor-mo
04-26-2007, 01:05 PM
Hi Buzzard, I am looking for the muffler off of your blown FC420V. Would you like to sell it? Ron @678-522-1012

buzzard86
04-26-2007, 06:14 PM
You would need to either add a charging system for an electric clutch to your engine if that is possible...or get a different engine for that scag.

I never really looked into whats involved but on those older singles to run a clutch without a battery they had a large capacitor and a voltage regulator outside of the engine along with the coil under the flywheel. You may need a new flywheel as well since yours may not have magnets under...

Bummer... I was afraid that the electric PTO might present a problem. Sounds like modifying my engine is more of a project than I'm willing to undertake right now.

Anybody know where I might be able to pick up a cheap engine that would fit a late '90s Scag? Harbor Freight maybe? I definitely can't afford $1000 for a Kohler. Don't need anything fancy, as this is just for residential use.

Thanks again, all.

PS - Motor-mo, if I do wind up getting this Scag I'll be happy to sell you the muffler. I'll touch base with you if it pans out.

Restrorob
04-26-2007, 07:58 PM
Check here for a replacment engine or even a shortblock for the blown FC420.


http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/

Motor-mo
04-26-2007, 08:03 PM
Hi Buzzard, I am not looking to buy the Scag but one of my older machines has muffler issues. I am definately interested in the muffler. How much? Thanks, Ron in Atlanta

buzzard86
04-26-2007, 09:03 PM
Hey Ron -
Sorry, but I don't own the Scag as of yet. Right now I've got a Ransome/BobCat. I had been thinking about buying the Scag and putting the engine from my Ransome on it. I've since discovered that I can't use the engine that's on the Ransome, so unless I can get the guy to go lower on the price for the Scag then I probably won't buy it. However, if the deal does go through, I'll be happy to touch base with you about the muffler.
Take care-
JIM

Motor-mo
04-26-2007, 09:05 PM
Buzzard, sorry for my last post I did not read fully. Please let me know if you purchase. Thanks, Ron

buzzard86
04-27-2007, 09:42 PM
Hey gang -
Update... I bought the Scag! The guy offered it to me for $300 and aside from the blown engine, it's in really nice shape. Couldn't resist the opportunity to upgrade. So that's where I need your help.

Can you tell me if there's any easy well to tell if my running Kawasaki has an alternator? I didn't think it did, but the guy from whom I bought the Scag had the same engine running on another Scag mower with an electric blade engage. Also, it looks like the good motor on my Ransome has some cut wires, as if somebody did away with the safety systems at some point.

Also, can anybody tell me what's involved with the engine swap on a Scag? I thought it was just a simply pulley swap, but the electric blade clutch seems a bit more elabroate than I'd expected. Can I just unbolt the pulley and leave it generally where it is and place the new shaft right into it?

Thanks, in advance. This is an awesome site. Hopefully, with your assistance, I'll be able to get through this engine swap and start mowing with my Scag. Yeah!
Thanks.
JIM

Restrorob
04-27-2007, 10:11 PM
Can you tell me if there's any easy well to tell if my running Kawasaki has an alternator?

If you look on the white bar code label on the engine block and post the spec. number we may be able to tell.

As for the clutch, Older ones can be a pain to get off so start spraying some type penetrating oil on the crankshaft above the clutch so it will run down the key-way area to aid in removal.

You will probably need to remove the clutch from the shaft first so the engine is held in place for prying and taping the clutch off.

buzzard86
04-27-2007, 10:37 PM
Hi -
Here's the info on the engine from the "donor" mower.

Kawasaki 12.5 hp
Code: FB460V-DS08

I'd like to put it on a Scag, model# SW48-14KA with a blown 14hp Kawasaki Code: FC420V-HSON.

From this info, can you tell if the 12.5 will work on the Scag?

Restrorob
04-28-2007, 11:17 AM
According to parts look-up your FB spec. shows no charging system.
First thing to do is measure the crankshaft dimensions of both cranks to make sure they are in fact the same, The bolt pattern (Foot print) will be the same.

Then, Call this man with the other Scag with the FB engine and get the spec. numbers off that one so the correct charging system for this Scag application can be looked up.

Just a ball park guess to add the charging system....$225/$300...

buzzard86
04-28-2007, 01:46 PM
Thanks again for the info. I'm going to look again into replacing the blown engine. Cost-wise I think I may be just as far ahead to sell my Bobcat in running condition and put a brand new engine on the Scag. I thought that I saw a 14hp Kohler on Tulsa's site for about $525, but I couldn't seem to find it last night. Hmmmm.... wonder if they sold out or something.

Are Tulsa and/or smallenginewarehouse the best places to source a replacement engine? Are there any places that sell rebuilt motors?

And, more importantly, are there any pitfalls that I need to be aware of before I undertake the engine swap? I'm handy but have never swapped an engine on a walkbehind before.

Thanks again for all your help and info.
JIM

buzzard86
04-28-2007, 02:59 PM
Found this engine today on SmallEngineWarehouse. Can you tell me what you think? I know that the Briggs are not as desirable as Kohlers, Kawasakis, etc., but for the price and my limited residential use this is very attractive. I am pretty sure that the shaft dimensions match my blown Kawasaki FC420V (1x3.15) and this Briggs has an alternator and regulator that I believe will power my electric blade clutch. Any thoughts? Are mounting bolt patterns on these universal?

Thanks again! :drinkup:
JIM

http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/product.asp?PN=28BH76-0114&desc=Briggs+Stratton+Engine+15+5HP+Intek+Vertical+1+x3+5+32+Keyed+Shaft+IC+AVS+Recoil+Start+9+Amp+Al ternator+and+Regulator

Restrorob
04-28-2007, 04:56 PM
That Briggs engine would be fine your needs for homeowner use and the bolt pattern should be the same.

But, The FC420 has a 13 amp regulated charging system as the Briggs is only 9 amp. I'm not sure how that would work out, Too much draw on the 9 amp could burn it up and possibly the clutch also.

Now, If a lawn & garden battery were mounted on the unit and the clutch ran off the battery with the charging system to keep it up that would most likely work.

buzzard86
04-28-2007, 05:53 PM
But, The FC420 has a 13 amp regulated charging system as the Briggs is only 9 amp. I'm not sure how that would work out, Too much draw on the 9 amp could burn it up and possibly the clutch also.


Man, just when I think I may have made a discovery! Can't seem to find much at all that has an alternator and vertical shaft in the size that I need, with a recoil pull start, that isn't insanely expensive.

Do you think that the clutch draws 13amps or is the motor just equipped to provide this much? Wonder if I could contact Scag to find out if the 9amp would work. I perused the list on smallengineswarehouse and didn't see much else that had 13 amps. There's a 14hp twin cylinder Briggs on there, but it doesn't say that it has an alternator, only that you need a regulator to use an electric clutch.

Any tips on where to look for a motor that has everything I need that would be in the sub-$500 range?
JIM

buzzard86
04-28-2007, 06:00 PM
Here's the other B&S that I found. This one says it has an alternator, but doesn't say how many amps. Does note that a regulator must also be purchased.

http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/product.asp?PN=294776&desc=Briggs+Stratton+Engine+14+HP+Vanguard+Vertical+1+shaft+Recoil+Start+W+Alternator

Restrorob
04-28-2007, 07:27 PM
Jim,

I done some more digging around and found the clutch in question only pulls 4 amps, With this new info. I don't think the 9 amp Briggs charging system would have a problem operating it.

You can read for yourself and make YOUR final decision, Also check the air-gap before you re-install the clutch on a new engine (easier on a bench).


http://www.ganos.com/electricclutchadjustment.pdf

Good Luck....

buzzard86
04-28-2007, 08:30 PM
Jim,

I done some more digging around and found the clutch in question only pulls 4 amps, With this new info. I don't think the 9 amp Briggs charging system would have a problem operating it.

You can read for yourself and make YOUR final decision, Also check the air-gap before you re-install the clutch on a new engine (easier on a bench).


http://www.ganos.com/electricclutchadjustment.pdf

Good Luck....

YEAH!!!!

You just made my day! I read through the tech pages that you linked me to and agree that it looks like the clutch only draws 4.0amps. I may call Scag on Monday just to confirm, but am pleased that it seems that the Briggs engine may work for me after all.

Thanks again for all of your help.... I can't tell you how very much I appreciate it. If I may, I'll probably be posting back on this thread once I get into the engine swap. I'm going to try to pull the old engine off in the next day or two and go from there... I'm sure that questions will arise. As I said before, I'm handy but this is all new to me.

Again, thanks a lot!
JIM

Restrorob
04-28-2007, 09:01 PM
No problem Jim....

buzzard86
04-28-2007, 09:29 PM
I don't want to take advantage of a good thing, but I have one more question tonight, if I may.

I'm pondering the logistics of getting the old engine off and am wondering what's the best way to go about it. Can I simply disconnect the wiring to the electric clutch, release the tension on the main drive belt on the adjustable deck pulley, and pull the motor off with the clutch still intact? Or is there more to it that I am not aware of? Should the whole clutch assembly then unbolt and pull off the PTO shaft?

Going to try to pull the motor tomorrow if I don't get called in to work.

JIM :D

Restrorob
04-28-2007, 10:10 PM
Hmmm, You must have missed this in post #10....


As for the clutch, Older ones can be a pain to get off so start spraying some type penetrating oil on the crankshaft above the clutch so it will run down the key-way area to aid in removal.

You will probably need to remove the clutch from the shaft first so the engine is held in place for prying and taping the clutch off.

Remove the belt and center crankshaft bolt then try to slide off.

buzzard86
04-28-2007, 10:29 PM
My short term memory is failing... gotta work on that. :hammerhead:

Thanks for reminding me and for the instructions. Curious... what do you mean by taping the clutch?

JIM

Restrorob
04-28-2007, 10:42 PM
Tap on the base part only with a hammer while prying downward with a piece of 2x4 or something. The shock will help in sliding off.

Motor-mo
04-29-2007, 08:53 AM
Hey Buzzard how is the new machine? Do you have a price in mind on the muffler? I can give you my UPS shipping no. to keep the cost down. Thanks Ron

buzzard86
04-29-2007, 09:31 AM
Morning, Ron.

My email is buzzard86 at comcast dot net. Shoot me an offer and it's yours. I'm going to try to pull the engine in the next couple of days (I'm on call this weekend so I don't want to start something that I can't finish) and I'll pull the muffler during the process. I'll try to send you a pic as well so that you can see how it looks. Keep in mind that I never heard this engine run, but the guy I bought the mower from said that it ran great up until it blew.

Drop me an email and we'll go from there. Anybody else need any parts off of a Kawasaki FC420V? Muffler and recoil are already accounted for, but I think it's intact otherwise. I could use the proceeds to offset the cost of my new motor. :laugh:

JIM

buzzard86
04-30-2007, 09:35 PM
First the good...

The engine's off! Pulled it today after work and it went rather smoothly. Here's a pic:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kjrowe2/scag1.jpg

Now the bad. Talked to them today at SmallEngineWarehouse and the guy with whom I spoke said that the Briggs won't fit my mower. He said that I won't have enough clearance between the motor and the tranny and that I might have to reconfigure the muffler. They were really nice and I trust them, but it sure seems that I have a lot of clearance between the old motor and the tranny. Do Briggs motors sit back that much further? Here's another pics of the old motor:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kjrowe2/engine1.jpg

I really want the Briggs simply because of cost. SEW does have a Kohler coming in later in the week that's 16hp and would be an easy swap, they said. Price is $575+shipping. Still not bad, but my costs are climbing. I paid $300 for the mower (+$50 for the grass gobbler) so this would put me around $950-ish said and done. Think I could recover this on resale?

Thanks.
JIM

Restrorob
04-30-2007, 10:32 PM
Jim,

Take a look at this pic;


http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m314/Restrorob/BriggsIntek.jpg


The ONLY way anyone could convince me this Briggs engine won't fit that Scagg is if they SHOWN me in person. I believe the guy at SEW misunderstood how you were mounting this engine and thinking the head goes toward the transmission, I'll bet my plug nickle on it !

buzzard86
05-01-2007, 06:58 PM
The ONLY way anyone could convince me this Briggs engine won't fit that Scagg is if they SHOWN me in person. I believe the guy at SEW misunderstood how you were mounting this engine and thinking the head goes toward the transmission, I'll bet my plug nickle on it !

That was sort of my thought, too. Haven't seen the Briggs in person but it sure seems like I've got plenty of room to play with on the deck, both fore and aft. Bolt patterns and wiring should be universal, right? I sent SEW another email last evening with photos but am still awaiting a reply.

I'd sure like to with the Briggs if it will work. The Kohlers, with shipping, are really stretching the budget.

buzzard86
05-01-2007, 08:03 PM
Curious.... without asking you to make the decision for me, what would you do in my position?

Think I'm safe with the Briggs? Are there questions that I should call back and ask SEW? If money weren't an issue I'd go with the Kohler in a heartbeat, but funds are tight and I'm really not going to beat this thing up. I'd take care of the Briggs so I think that if I can get it to work, it would serve me well.

Eager to get this thing done and get mowing with the Scag. :clapping:

Restrorob
05-01-2007, 08:34 PM
Jim,

You have a guy sitting in a office selling engines.
You have a guy that works on engines and equipment.

It's your call !

If that unit were mine out in my home shop I would put the Briggs on and start mowing my yard. Well, Maybe not....I'd jump on my Ingersoll in my avatar and mow my yard and sell the Scag for profit. No ride no mow :nono:

buzzard86
05-01-2007, 08:40 PM
Yeah, I'm giving serious thought to going with the Briggs. Can't seem to see any way that the tranny would hit and, from what I can see, it doesn't look like the muffler would be a problem either.

Can you tell me if the wiring on these is universal (ie plug and go) or should I expect to have to decipher some diagrams and make some connections to get things wired up?

buzzard86
05-02-2007, 11:50 AM
Rob... just got your PM. Was going to go for it today (guys at SEW gave me the OK) but now I understand that there may be a problem with the alternator that you mentioned. Will explore further after work today. Thanks.
JIM

buzzard86
05-10-2007, 10:20 PM
Hey Rob -

Engine arrived today. Threw it on the Scag and it looks great. I can't however, seem to figure out how the wiring's supposed to go. Any chance you can help. Here's a pic of the wiring situation.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kjrowe2/scag2.jpg

The red and white wires on the tire are the harness that I had to get from Briggs to make this alternator work with my electric clutch. I started to remove the regulator wiring, but decided to freeze until I had your input. It appears that the yellow and red wires are directly from what I assume is the regulator (the small box). The black wire appears to come directly from the alternator. The plug with the grey and black wires goes to the bottom of the carb float. The lower black/yellow harness goes to the electic clutch. The upper one was grounded directly to the old engine. The plug that my old Kohler plugged into on the scag is shown here. It has one white and two black wires.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kjrowe2/scag3.jpg

Neither the motor not the harness can with any directions, diagrams, etc. Can you make sense of this?

On another front, can you or anybody else help me source two parts online? Local mower shop, while friendly, is essentially unresponsive to non-pro customers. They're just too busy right now to help me find these parts. I need to find a bolt for the bottom of the PTO shaft on my new Briggs motor. The one from the old Kohler does not fit so I cannot install the clutch. Second, I need a deck belt for my old (currently being used) Ransomes walk behind. I blew the main deck drive belt this week, goes from the PTO shaft to the center blade spindle and then to the left spindle. Mower is an XM4801.

THANKS!!!!!!

Restrorob
05-11-2007, 08:05 AM
Sent Ya A PM.....

siggeorge
10-18-2008, 10:22 AM
Any update on these posts with regard to the reliability and functioning of the Briggs over the past year or so? I need to re-power my Scag 36 as well. I have a manual clutch.

Thanks.

buzzard86
10-18-2008, 01:35 PM
Any update on these posts with regard to the reliability and functioning of the Briggs over the past year or so? I need to re-power my Scag 36 as well. I have a manual clutch.

Thanks.

For my light residential use, the engine has served me well and I am very pleased with my decision. FWIW, though, I've only put about 20 hrs on the engine (the Scag has cut down my mowing time dramatically).

I did have the engine serviced once already. The plastic flywheel cover kept "flying" off when I'd pull start. Turns out that Briggs has since made a design change... the mount holes are now true holes instead of U shaped mounts. The repair was covered under warranty and it's good as new.

I've gotten some grief from the commercial guys for putting a Briggs on a Scag and agree that if my livelihood depended on the mower I probably would have spent more. But, for the money, I've been pleased and have no regrets about my decision.

Hope that this helps!

JIM

siggeorge
10-19-2008, 10:52 AM
One more question (I think), exactly which model number Briggs did you finally go with. I see that one of the engines requires 12V to operate the fuel solenoid. It's interesting that they would put that on a recoil engine. Since I have no battery aboard this 36" I guess that engine is out of the question.

Restrorob
10-19-2008, 11:09 AM
Remove the fuel solenoid from the carb, Cut the tip off the end of it with dikes then re-install it. That solves the need for 12 volts to make the engine run.

buzzard86
10-19-2008, 12:04 PM
I'll try to get you a model number. Restrorob was awesome. I followed his directions to a T and the swap was painless and the new setup works flawlessly. I have often raised a glass to Rob after I'm done mowing, as I could not have done the swap without his help. :drinkup:

buzzard86
10-19-2008, 12:07 PM
By the way, I bought my engine from Small Engine Warehouse. They were good to work with. But, for what it's worth, they also sell on ebay. Just a few weeks after I bought my engine, they were auctioning the exact same engine with a Buy It Now of like $25 of $50 less than I paid through their website (shipping costs were the same). Might want to check there.

JIM

siggeorge
10-19-2008, 12:14 PM
If it is the V-Twin model (14hp Vanguard) what did you do for a muffler?

siggeorge
10-19-2008, 12:21 PM
Skip that question please. It appears from the picture that you went with the 15.5hp Intek engine.