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irrig8r
05-04-2007, 12:56 AM
Interesting looking fixtures... lots of fins (to disperse heat I imagine).

Just wondering- has anyone had any dealings with this company and their products yet and do they offer anything that would be considered a real LED "breakthrough"?

www.dglights.com

They claim:
Benefits of Our LED fixtures:


ETL Listed UL1838

LED Specific

Field Proven

Superior Light Output

Anti-Wicking Leads

9-15Vac Input

Equal Brightness

Sealed Electronics

Serviceable

NightScenes
05-04-2007, 07:38 AM
Never heard of em. Notice how dark it is in the background of the pictures. I wonder how long the exposure was to make those lights look bright. There is know way you could do that with some light still left in the sky, which is really the best way to take night shots.

I think LED still has a few years to go.

Pro-Scapes
05-04-2007, 09:35 AM
most of al I dont like the color of the current LED's I think it looks cheap... If you look at it there is almost a pulsation to the light.

samluke
05-04-2007, 09:44 AM
I'm glad to hear that people are discovering DG Lights. Great company with a great product (quality is amazing). I attended a demo of their products almost 2 years ago put on in Northern California for a group of local lanscapers & designers and was shocked at the light output of these LEDs. When compared side by side to halogen, well lets just say these LEDs don't have a long way to go...they are there.

Chris J
05-04-2007, 11:43 PM
I'm glad to hear that people are discovering DG Lights. Great company with a great product (quality is amazing). I attended a demo of their products almost 2 years ago put on in Northern California for a group of local lanscapers & designers and was shocked at the light output of these LEDs. When compared side by side to halogen, well lets just say these LEDs don't have a long way to go...they are there.

In order to gain some credebility, could you post some of your work? It's easy to post "words" without some sort of proof that you actually know what your talking about.
Thanks Bunches Stud!

irrig8r
05-07-2007, 11:12 AM
I'm glad to hear that people are discovering DG Lights. Great company with a great product (quality is amazing). I attended a demo of their products almost 2 years ago put on in Northern California for a group of local lanscapers & designers and was shocked at the light output of these LEDs. When compared side by side to halogen, well lets just say these LEDs don't have a long way to go...they are there.

Glad to hear someone has tried them and likes them.
I'd like to see comparative photometric charts.

Photos can be tweakedto show unrealistic results. Where can I see them in person?

samluke
05-15-2007, 11:32 PM
Glad to hear someone has tried them and likes them.
I'd like to see comparative photometric charts.

Photos can be tweakedto show unrealistic results. Where can I see them in person?

Hey there! Yes, you can see the product in person. I know they do work with a group out of San Jose / Los Gatos. You can contact DG Lights directly and they will give you references to call. I know the DG Lights rep does frequent trips to the Bay Area and is willing to do demos. I actually heard through one of my contacts in San Jose that someone from the company will be in your area sometime next week, so I encourage you to call them. You can contact DG Lights via their web site www.dglights.com to book something. I look forward to hearing how it goes.

Sam :waving:

Lite4
05-16-2007, 12:02 AM
From the LEDs I have seen, they still have a long way to go. They seem OK for about 4-5' out from the lamp but then, dissapation. You still have to be able to adjust wattage for light quality and have yet to see an LED with varying beam spreads. I would have to see it to believe it "in person". It's coming though. Just some tweeks in the technology and halogens will be a thing of the past. Maybe another 5-6 years before some real effective LEDs for spots and floods.

David Gretzmier
05-16-2007, 12:18 AM
ah, sam luke, you have not used them? And it sounded like you liked them so much !

I gotta tell you, the cree LED flashlight on my keychain is bright, brighter than the 20 watt narrow spots I aimed tonight, but it is not for lighting houses. the warm white may be a better look, and I REALLY like the idea of a constant output of light from a 9-15 volt imput range.

BUT, asking Installation folks to change requires risk. and charging customers for that risk is a bit unfair. I also am building a long term revenue stream and value to my company by yearly rebulbing. If I only have to rebulb every 10 years, that ain't gonna happen.

If Led's can be shown to be a long term light, beautiful light color, then I'm interested.

High Performance Lighting
05-17-2007, 10:08 PM
The effects of these LED fixtures shown in the gallery are horrible. There isn't even one I'd be proud enough of to show my mom. They are so dim that in 1 photo there are two fixtures mounted way up in a palm tree about 4 feet under the fronds and they are still not even close to being properly illuminated. Terrible.
Pioneers end up going home with arrows in their backs.
Sit back relax and keep doing what you are doing until when and if they ever are able to get some lumens out of these things, verify longevity and become effective for the purpose of landscape lighting.

NightScenes
05-18-2007, 09:28 AM
The effects of these LED fixtures shown in the gallery are horrible. There isn't even one I'd be proud enough of to show my mom. They are so dim that in 1 photo there are two fixtures mounted way up in a palm tree about 4 feet under the fronds and they are still not even close to being properly illuminated. Terrible.
Pioneers end up going home with arrows in their backs.
Sit back relax and keep doing what you are doing until when and if they ever are able to get some lumens out of these things, verify longevity and become effective for the purpose of landscape lighting.

I agree 100%!! They have a long way to go. As stated in another thread, they still cannot verify longevity and the color is still quite aways off. It will come, but it's gonna take some time.

irrig8r
01-17-2008, 08:33 PM
Time to bump this thread...

Well, I think Mike and Paul might end up eating their words.

Not sure yet. Still need to wire this up and try it.

This a a DG Lights Paso 1. Very compact but weighs about 2 lbs. because it's machined from solid brass (not cast.)

This is the underside view of the fixture, showing the LED behind a lens (probably lexan or acrylic) with a red 'O' ring and three SS screws.

Variable input of 9 to 15 V. Maximum 5 W LED. Conforms to UL 1838. ETL listed.

Sorry for the pic quality, from my cell phone...

http://lh4.google.com/g.catanese/R5ABAKobm5I/AAAAAAAAA8M/GGAY0skp6sM/0117081637.jpg?imgmax=512

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-17-2008, 08:46 PM
That machined brass body is going to act as one heck of a heat sink for that 5w LED Gregg.

I am VERY interested in the colour and intensity of the light from that fixture.

How long is the wire lead on that?

Regards.

Pro-Scapes
01-17-2008, 10:06 PM
DG assured me this is like nothing else on the market. I have a sample arriving tmrw for a retrofit kit and will see what its about... take some pics and post my findings. Im open minded altho I agree its still got some ways to come before its mainstream.

irrig8r
01-18-2008, 12:42 AM
That machined brass body is going to act as one heck of a heat sink for that 5w LED Gregg.

I am VERY interested in the colour and intensity of the light from that fixture.

How long is the wire lead on that?

Regards.

This comes with 36" of 18/2, but I'll bet I can order them with longer. Sherman says he's willing and able to do some customizations, like a tee bracket I would like to use with a stacked stone wall (inserting the long leg of the tee between the stones) so something like longer leads shouldn't be a problem.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-18-2008, 08:38 AM
So Gregg, does this find mark your entry into the use of pro-grade LED lighting? :)

If you do use these products, I would highly recommend you start by building your systems to the 'old' standard. (as if you were using incandescent lamps) Ampacity, Wire Ga., VD considerations should all remain old school. This way if there is a problem with the new product in the future, you don't have to replace the infrastructure to revert to old tech.

Regards.

irrig8r
01-18-2008, 10:30 AM
Thanks for the suggestions James. I'm still trying to figure these out...if each of these is milled from solid bar stock then they'll definitely work as a heat sink...

Installing LED MR-16s, with a closed air space around them seems a little counterintuitive by comparison... have you ever used some kind of sensor to check temperatures inside yours to see if they're drawing away sufficient heat?

My understanding is that temps over 120 deg. F with these Atlas light engines shortens their life. You wouldn't see the effect right away but over time, reducing their useful life considerably.

Lamina makes a highly rated MR-16 replacement too, with fins to disperse heat, but it says all over the spec sheet that they are not to be used in closed spaces...

So, I'm going to be cautious and start off with these LED fixtures slowly and see if some forward thinking customers might want to try them out... meanwhile someone will come up with a way to disperse the heat more efficiently from a fixture that is also sealed from the elements...

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-18-2008, 10:50 AM
Thanks for the suggestions James. I'm still trying to figure these out...if each of these is milled from solid bar stock then they'll definitely work as a heat sink...

Installing LED MR-16s, with a closed air space around them seems a little counterintuitive by comparison... have you ever used some kind of sensor to check temperatures inside yours to see if they're drawing away sufficient heat?

My understanding is that temps over 120 deg. F with these Atlas light engines shortens their life. You wouldn't see the effect right away but over time, reducing their useful life considerably.

Lamina makes a highly rated MR-16 replacement too, with fins to disperse heat, but it says all over the spec sheet that they are not to be used in closed spaces...

So, I'm going to be cautious and start off with these LED fixtures slowly and see if some forward thinking customers might want to try them out... meanwhile someone will come up with a way to disperse the heat more efficiently from a fixture that is also sealed from the elements...

Heat generation and dissipation is def. a concern Gregg. The LED MR16 Lamps I have been using are similar to the Lamina product you mention, perhaps not as robust in their use of fins, but also more sealed to the environment which offers some advantages.

The units I use are rated to operate up to 80 deg. celcius. I have not used any type of thermal device to measure the operating temperature of the lamps in the application. I will look into this as it is a great idea. Thanks! :)

I have been installing these predominantly in CAST Treelights. These fixtures offer a great amount of airspace behind the lamp and are built from Copper and cast Bronze components. The fixtures are in effect very dense heat sinks. I also have LED lamps installed in Hunza DL-Cop as well as NS Guardians (also great heat sinks by design). So far I have not had any premature fade or failure issues.

I will check into one of the IR projecting thermometers and get back to you with the results. This could take a while.

Regards.

JoeyD
01-18-2008, 11:46 AM
They have a local north county san diego phone numbers.....Hey SamLuke, who works for these guys in San Diego??? Or do you know who the owner/owners are?

Pro-Scapes
01-18-2008, 06:47 PM
I got a sample from them today. Its in a retrofit kit that was placed in a deck light housing that looks like the unique gemini or maybe a corona one.I attached a couple of wires to it... clipped it to the 12v tap and screwed it to a post on my deck. Will try to get pics of it next to a cast deck light tonight for comparison. Maybe tmrw I can mount em several feet apart on a brick wall here and get side by side shots of xelogen vs led.

So far the color doesnt look half bad. Warmest LED I have seen so far.

irrig8r
01-18-2008, 06:49 PM
Joey, the owner is Sherman Gingerella. They're in Carlsbad.

Pro-Scapes
01-18-2008, 07:31 PM
here they are... 1 in halogen and the other is LED. Tmrw I will try to mount them on brick to give a clearer idea and take pics earlier. They really are very similar

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-18-2008, 09:07 PM
here they are... 1 in halogen and the other is LED. Tmrw I will try to mount them on brick to give a clearer idea and take pics earlier. They really are very similar

Very interesting... thanks for this Billy.

Which is which?

Do you think you could do one more set up and take a photo? Mount them both so that they are oriented in the same direction... If it isnt too much trouble that is.

What lamp do you have installed there?

Thanks

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-18-2008, 09:16 PM
I got a sample from them today. Its in a retrofit kit that was placed in a deck light housing that looks like the unique gemini or maybe a corona one.I attached a couple of wires to it... clipped it to the 12v tap and screwed it to a post on my deck. Will try to get pics of it next to a cast deck light tonight for comparison. Maybe tmrw I can mount em several feet apart on a brick wall here and get side by side shots of xelogen vs led.

So far the color doesnt look half bad. Warmest LED I have seen so far.

Billy, you say that you received a LED retrofit kit from DG lights? Do you have a part number on that item? Would you be able to take a photo of the kit that you received before it is mounted in a fixture? Finally, in your opinion, would this unit fit inside of a NS Copper Postliter (WM3535-CU)

Thanks.

irrig8r
01-18-2008, 09:25 PM
Billy,

Sherman didn't say anything about a "retrofit kit" being available when I talked to him... he's swinging through town in a couple of weeks and said he'd be bringing the full sample kit.. and said they expect to have additional fixtures out by midsummer.

What do you think of the "tootsie roll"?

Pro-Scapes
01-18-2008, 11:34 PM
it isnt a retrofit kit per se that i got. It was a kit installed inside a decklight. Im unfamilair with a ns postlighter so I cant say. I will mount them tmrw in the same way on a brick wall or post then try to get ashley to grab some pics if the weather cooperates.

The decklight is a corona casting. Im sure the kit would fit in many other deck lights. The pheonix spot light in copper that most of us would use is still VERY high priced. As far as I can tell DG does not offer a retrofit to drop in for mr powered lights.

I will disassemble the fixture tmrw to see if I can mount it in a cast housing as well and try to get some pics of it up against a ruler. James if you cant tell which is which by looking at them then its score 1 for the led's. Seems to be fine output mounted 5 ft above my deck for testing but unsure of the long distance light output. Will try to play some more in the next few nights and see if I cant set this up to see how it does against a 20w.

my decklight is a stock cast one.

David Gretzmier
01-19-2008, 12:01 AM
hey- No fair posting pictures of Leds without telling us which one is which. That way no one knows which one to slam because of crappy color, throw, etc. I am actually stunned how similar each light looks. a note on the 5 watt led- any idea if it is a Cree, Luxeon rebel, a Soule ? I'm curious. The only 5 watt LED I am aware of is the old style Luxeon star, and those have been out for 3 years plus. The newer ones put out almost as much light and warm color at 1 watt.

SamIV
01-19-2008, 12:33 AM
The halogen is on the bottom. And Billy, if you tell me I'm wrong, I won't take you fishing.

Burt Wilson
Accent Outdoor Lighting

irrig8r
01-19-2008, 01:23 AM
hey- No fair posting pictures of Leds without telling us which one is which. That way no one knows which one to slam because of crappy color, throw, etc. I am actually stunned how similar each light looks. a note on the 5 watt led- any idea if it is a Cree, Luxeon rebel, a Soule ? I'm curious. The only 5 watt LED I am aware of is the old style Luxeon star, and those have been out for 3 years plus. The newer ones put out almost as much light and warm color at 1 watt.

The one I received has a Lamina Atlas 4025 SBX... same as yours Billy? CCT rating of 3050 K.

Pro-Scapes
01-19-2008, 06:49 AM
The halogen is on the bottom. And Billy, if you tell me I'm wrong, I won't take you fishing.

Burt Wilson
Accent Outdoor Lighting

sorry amigo but you are wrong lol. The led is in fact on the bottom. Guess we are going to gatlinburg instead :laugh: I didnt have time to play with it alot last night but will try to today and get some more pics. Burt I will bring it next weekend and you can get some pics of it. I stated before I would pit it against a cast deck light. The cast is on top. It looks to be the same LED array as the unit greg showed. Tonight I want to play with the input voltage. I think I can run 7-15v in this thing

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-19-2008, 11:20 AM
I will bring along a couple of LED MR16 Lamps to the AOLP Conference. Can someone make sure we have a transformer and a couple of bullet fixtures that I can use there?

Thanks.

Pro-Scapes
01-19-2008, 11:40 AM
well that last post was before i looked outside. Welcome to warm southern MS. Looks like a few palms got frost bitten but should come back. Had to go blow off the rest of the Ornamentals at our house then I spent the morning doing donuts on the ATV.


LED experiments are post poned sorry guys :)

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-19-2008, 12:03 PM
Something tells me you guys down there are not prepared for snow. :)

I wonder how many snow tires are on the cars there?

We got a bit more last night too... about 6" or so, no biggie.

Pro-Scapes
01-19-2008, 12:11 PM
I used to live in chicago... much different because the plows and everything ran right on time. Here if there is a flurry people freak and assume you cant even go to town. Im sure our rural highway is quite hairy right now altho I will head to town shortly im sure it will take some time. We been all over this morning on the ATV.

Ash dragged me out of my nice warm cozy bed to build a freakin snowman! Thoes are pics of our backyard above

Pro-Scapes
01-19-2008, 11:47 PM
ok back on topic here... here is some pics of the workings of this light. The housing DG sent me is a Corona housing similar to the unique gemini it looks like. I think the retrofit kit should fit most housings with little modification (possibly drill and tap a hole???)

James I am unfamiliar with the insides of the post lighter so I cant say if this would work for that or not. Once the weather dries up some I will mock up a scenario or 2 for comparisons. Im impressed with everything but cost so far.

ChampionLS
01-20-2008, 12:17 AM
It's been two seasons now... so far we've had about a dozen storms with less than 1/2". Crazy!

pete scalia
01-20-2008, 10:18 AM
ok back on topic here... here is some pics of the workings of this light. The housing DG sent me is a Corona housing similar to the unique gemini it looks like. I think the retrofit kit should fit most housings with little modification (possibly drill and tap a hole???)

James I am unfamiliar with the insides of the post lighter so I cant say if this would work for that or not. Once the weather dries up some I will mock up a scenario or 2 for comparisons. Im impressed with everything but cost so far.

The photo is very deceptive, It looks huge but must not be if it fits in that puck light. Is that mounting bracket stainless or aluminum? If you supply 5V is the light dimmer than if you supply 15V? And what affect will voltage have on lamp life? What about lamp life, how many hrs are they claiming and how about cold and moisture, will it have a detrimental affect? Thank you.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-20-2008, 10:33 AM
Billy, I just reviewed the DG lights 2007 "certified installer" price list for their entire line and I have to wonder why you think the product is expensive? I certainly don't think it is excessive at all. That Palm65 fixture is priced significantly below the cost of a CAST Bullet with a quality MR16 LED installed. (I am not making any quality comparisons here as I have not seen the DGlights product yet... this is simply a cost comparison)

Regards

Pro-Scapes
01-20-2008, 11:11 AM
the price I was quoted for the copper pheonix was 7 times what a cast bullet will cost you.

The palm 65 in allum is signicantly less. I will say the brass decklight with led kit I have here is about 1.5 times the cost of a cast bullet.

The plate measures about 1.75 inches across and the array is about .75 inches. They look huge in the photo because I took them with a macro lens so I could show some detail.. The puck light is a tad over 3 inches.

The led unit apears to be expoxy sealed. No rating will ever substitue for real world test but claims of 100k hours are out there. There is a newer generation coming jout from DG lights. my intention here is not to push this on anybody. Just provide info on my findings.

Unfortunatly the plate inside is alluminum and I assume for heat shedding reasons.

I have not had a chance to put 5v to the led yet but i plan to mock up a dimmer this week and report on that. from what i am told 5 to 15v yield same output. I think there is a regulator inside there as well and will confirm that with my meter. If you drop below the threshhold of voltage it will begin to flicker from what i hear.

Again I am just trying to post my findings. James please forward me that price list or email me with where I can get it.

irrig8r
01-20-2008, 02:16 PM
Billy,
I sent you two emails on the 17th... one included the DG pricelist as a PDF attachment... both were form my gmail account... did they end up in your spam folder?

Pro-Scapes
01-20-2008, 07:09 PM
i found it thanks got blocked for some reason. I think it easy to get light output enough for a deck or step light like we have samples for . The real test will be the spot lights and if they have the punch to go the distance.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-20-2008, 11:56 PM
Billy, if you want to see some output from an LED lamp that will impress you, get yourself over to colorstars.com and order one of their 5w MR16 LED lamps in "warm white". (TRISTAR-MR16-WHT 5W LED) http://www.colorstars.com/Products/Products.aspx That unit is still a bit cool in colour temp for my liking but it is an excellent performer.

Also, that Lamina SOL MR16 LED that Gregg mentioned looks very very promising.
http://www.laminaceramics.com/docs/SoLDatasheet.pdf

I will be bringing a couple of these along with my "secret" LED MR16 lamp to the AOLP conference. I know you won't be there, but be sure to ask what the others think after they see them.

Regards.

JoeyD
01-21-2008, 10:19 AM
Nice to see someone else using our Locking Shroud Puck Light (Gemini) that we designed!

Pro-Scapes
01-21-2008, 10:39 AM
always imitated right Joey.

James... the lamina is not designed for sealed... outdoor or damp location use which makes it null and void to even consider it right now.

JoeyD
01-21-2008, 11:06 AM
always imitated right Joey.



Thats just how some manufacturers roll I guess.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-21-2008, 02:00 PM
always imitated right Joey.

James... the lamina is not designed for sealed... outdoor or damp location use which makes it null and void to even consider it right now.

Billy, you are correct sir, the speck sheet on that lamp clearly states that.

However, it is probably able to be used sucessfully in the right style of fixtures. If you have a well sealed fixture (IP65 or IP68 rated) that also has significant airspace inside and is built out of cast brass or bronze or makes use of a heat sink like design there are probably going to be few issues with it.

Bench testing will tell you pretty quickly.

Keep in mind how many components used in LV lighting that were never designed specifically for our industry. Sockets being the most common example.

Regards.

emdoller
03-23-2009, 12:30 PM
So what's the verdict on DG and LED in general? I'm a home owner getting ready to upgrade my system and add a few more lights meaning I'd need a new transformer etc.

I'm wondering if I should look into replacing my current lights with LED to save power and money.

Lastly, where can I buy the DG lights as a home owner?

Thanks - Ed

irrig8r
03-23-2009, 01:07 PM
So what's the verdict on DG and LED in general? I'm a home owner getting ready to upgrade my system and add a few more lights meaning I'd need a new transformer etc.

I'm wondering if I should look into replacing my current lights with LED to save power and money.

Lastly, where can I buy the DG lights as a home owner?

Thanks - Ed

I think what you need to do is call Sherman for a contractor referral in your area. Where did you say your were?

And James can provide you with LED MR16 replacements if you want to try that route...

emdoller
03-23-2009, 01:14 PM
I live in northern CA (El Dorado Hills).

irrig8r
03-23-2009, 08:18 PM
Got to the DG Lights website and contact Sherman. He may know someone near you.