Paver Jobs taking too long

[JimLewis]

We've been doing a LOT of paver jobs this year. A lot more than ever before. And I find our crews are taking a little longer than they should be on the paver jobs. Our rates are fairly competitive with our competition. So I know I am bidding them right. So far, our customers have been just stoked with all the paver jobs we've done. But the problem is they are taking us too long to install. We often go over budget by a day or more.

My workers are taking a lot of time making the little custom cuts in the pavers when they get to the edges. Many of the paver patios we do have curvy edges. Obviously, pavers don't accomodate a curvy edge, so that always results in a lot of cutting. But even on patios where it's basically a rectangle, there are always unexpected things that result in cutting. Things like rounded corners, or the where the patio starts at the house, the house is not straight. Often times, the back side of the house, where the patio starts, is not straight. It comes out for a picture window or chimney or something. So there's a lot of custom cutting to accomdate that too.

Any tips on avoiding this? I sometimes feel like we're spending WAY too much time cutting. Sometimes (especially on smaller paver patios) we'll spend more time cutting these little wedge pieces to fit these areas than we do laying the rest of the patio! I sometimes feel like, "There must be a better way!!!"

Is there? Or is that just the nature of pavers? For those of you who do a lot of paver patios, are there any short-cuts or tricks to help you avoid taking so much time cutting pavers into smaller custom pieces to fit?

[D Felix]

Depending on the severity of the curve, a lot of guys here will tell you they over-lay the pavers, mark the curve, then cut them in place with a handheld. I've yet to try it myself, but I plan to as soon as possible

As for the "custom" cuts, I don't have any insight into that. Cutting does seem to take forever though...

[forestfireguy]

I second D Felix, I am a big fan of the overlay method.....Our consultant says "an expierienced crew member should be able to lay 300 Sq inc. base per day. I don't agree but thats what he says.

[Dirty Water]

Jim, if you square your patio the house, you won't have major cutting issues there, and it will look better to the naked eye.

[Firefly Prof. Lighting]

Hey Jim,
cutting is a pain, I conquer with Dirty. We always start off a set surface like the house. However you will never get away from the tedius and time consuming task of cutting. Smooth long curves in the patio are always nicer to the eye than squares, but they are also a big pain in the butt. What worked for me was to estimate the time I thought the job should take, and then double to accomodate murphy's law. I started to come out right on the time then. Jobs always seem to run smoother and go faster when you are building them in your head and not in the dirt. I use a hot saw with a diamond blade on large 18" x 18" pavers or bigger but never have on the small ones. I was always afraid the saw would kick them out of place and mess up the radius. I guess it couldn't hurt to try though.

[Firefly Prof. Lighting]

Wow, where did I learn to spell ;"conquer"- I mean I agree. Whew, that was easier.

[JimLewis]

I hope you meant you "concur" with Dirty.

If you have conquered him, let's just keep that between the two of you...... ;) :eek:

[sheshovel]

Jim, it seems to me that if this is becoming par-for-the-course , you just need to add more time to your estimates. Excellent work does take time and effort above and beyond just banging the jobs out fast. I have always found that if given a little breathing room, I work more efficiently and am more productive.
If you rush your workers or make them feel like they are just too slow, they will slow you up even more. I know you are not the type of boss that does that so don't take me wrong.
I guess my point is, excelling at anything takes more time. I suggest you might take on less work and charge more for the work you are doing because all that extra care in cutting and fitting and doing the job right is what defines your business in the long run.
That makes a difference.
Allowing your people to take that extra time makes them able to be proud about what they do too.

[BSDeality]

The best I've found (but I am new at this) for cutting in the edge is just a construction grade Sharpie marker and a speed square. Just lay them in the gap between the soldier and the patio and mark the sides with the sharpie, then flip it over and use the square to connect the marks. I typically do 4-6 of these at a shot then start the saw and rip them all at once. Then I go put them in and do the next batch. For cutting the radius soldier courses I just do it by eye chopping 1/8"-1/4" fan-shape off each side.

my 14" saw is too big to cut in place as it does kick everything out, I'm looking for a worm gear or similar saw to try next.

[PatriotLandscape]

we use a 12 inch diamond blade and always cut in place. You WILL shave hours off jobs by overlaying the field and then cutting.

Our saw has a 14 inch shroud but when cutting pavers we just put in a 12 inch blade.

[Hokie84]

We really cut our cutting time when we can overlay and cut in place. For making angled cuts next to a wall or when cutting in place is not practical, Pave tech's PaverScribe marking tool is very helpful.

[JimmyStew]

I too concur with the overlay method on edges. When I worked for my old boss, we always marked each paver individually and then took it to the saw and cut. The edges never had a real nice flow to them. So when I started my own company a few years ago, I thought I'd give the overlay method a shot. Was I thrilled. It shaved tons of time off the project and more importantly, looked so much smoother. In the past I had been using an old circular saw, but this season I am upgrading to a worm drive. The larger 12" and 14" saws always seemed to big for cutting pavers, although I have never used one.

[Rex Mann]

we use a 10-inch blade on our saws for tight curves.

Peace,

Rex

http://PaversInstalled.Com

[kootoomootoo]

Overlay / score in place / cut 3 or 4 at a time/ wish i sold more square patios.

[YardPro]

jim,
you need to price your jobs according to YOUR production rates... not based on others prices....

sell your job as taking longer because of the extra care your guys spend on the little details...

[Grn Mtn]

jim,
you need to price your jobs according to YOUR production rates... not based on others prices....

sell your job as taking longer because of the extra care your guys spend on the little details...

YES! My big patio I am working on now has run into some unforseen snags and is taking longer than planned, but the customer is aware of the additional costs but says the work is outstanding and worth it. A smart customer can tell when you put forth the extra mile and will pay for it. To help sell your work at a higher price show pictures of crappy work- its easy to find, then show yours in comparison.

I used to use a speed square and spike and measure every one -what a waste of time. Now I build the patio base extra wide and lay a couple pavers past. Then I use a cutoff saw to SCORE a line. Then two guys take turns grabbing the scored pavers over to the tub saw a make nice clean straight cuts. We just cut a 30' edge in 18 minutes.

[ChampionLS]

Hey Green!
Thats excatly how my crew does it. If you just mark each paver with a marker or pencil, each cut is never in line with the next and you have that saw took appearance. Definitley chase the radius with the cut off saw and table cut afterwards. If we don't have enough pavers to extend the patio, I'll use left over cuttings and pack wet sand up against the edges to keep the vibration from migrating them loose while cutting. If Im feeling really mighty, I'll cut the whole dam thing in place.

Why on this job are you cutting 1/4 of a paver? I would just end the driveway at a 6x6. That looks much better.

[Grn Mtn]

Hey Green!
Thats excatly how my crew does it. ...:weightlifter:
Why on this job are you cutting 1/4 of a paver? I would just end the driveway at a 6x6. That looks much better.

Long story but the short of it is we were busting a nut just trying to lay pavers after 48 ton of crusher so we rushed the first 100sqft. The next morning I got to the site and realized my string lines that we used the night before were not accurate anymore (running the skidder next to them moved them slightly) so after I fixed the lines I realized everything we did the night before had to be relaid:cry: :hammerhead:

THE REASON ...(I can't say anything quick:laugh: ) I left the quarter is I don't like the look of one paver factory edge and the next fresh cut. This way they all have a fresh cut.- oh its a 800+ sqft patio btw.

[mrusk]

It took you 18 minutes to cut that stright line? I would of done it in 4. I'd lay out a stright 2x4 or other peice of lumber and have each of my amigos stand on each end, and i would use that as a guide for the demo saw and cut in place. I've done this 100 times and have experiences great success with this method.

[PatriotLandscape]

Why score in place then bring them to the saw? Just run the saw the whole way through. I score the line then go back and finish the cut.

[Edgewater]

I have not yet tried cutting in place. Do you go "with" the saw or against it? (let the saw pull you, or you pulll the saw back)

[Grn Mtn]

I have not yet tried cutting in place. Do you go "with" the saw or against it? (let the saw pull you, or you pulll the saw back)


walking backwords with a cutoff saw is asking for serious trouble.

[Grn Mtn]

It took you 18 minutes to cut that stright line? I would of done it in 4. I'd lay out a stright 2x4 or other peice of lumber and have each of my amigos stand on each end, and i would use that as a guide for the demo saw and cut in place. I've done this 100 times and have experiences great success with this method.

don't you wear through your blade faster cutting into the base material? I use the tub saw for final cut so the cut line is vertical, the saw can wander sometimes.

I'm glad you can rip it off in 4 minutes, good for you. For me I'm still transitioning from measure and cut each one, so 18 minutes was good for me.

I used my black pipe screed bars for a straight edge, worked good.

[paponte]

Great thread Jim, and a great example why guys shouldn't be bidding based on a sqft price. I agree that the overlay method is the fastest, but there are also times where it just doesn't work and intricate cuts have to be made. Time and blades should be figured in on inticate jobs, and should be charged for. Plenty of jobs we have done actually took us longer to do all the cuts than to lay the actual field. Maybe an extra saw would help you out?

[Henry]

If you'e not cutting all the way through why use the demo saw at all?

[forestfireguy]

I agree with Paponte. The overlay methos is hands down the fastest but, there are jobs where it's just not possible. I bid all of our work thinking we can't use that method, therefore if it can be used it's like found time, after using the overlay method several times I have found it is best to use the water kit the saw comes with, just use caution not to flood out your creeded sand. Somewhere around half on works best for us, it helps with blade longevity and keeps dust down, too much is no good for the base too little and you are wasting water. I will also say it's best done on a sunny day or you may have to wait a long long time to sand your work if using poly sand. Don't ever put that stuff on a damp, even slightly moist paver, I learned the hard way.

[Pro-Scapes]

jim,
you need to price your jobs according to YOUR production rates... not based on others prices....

sell your job as taking longer because of the extra care your guys spend on the little details...

exactly. You should know better than most of us Jim. You cant set your prices based in full on the competition. Granted you cant be that much higher unless you stand out but if they are doing work on par to yours find some key upsell points on why your worth it. Pavers are hard work. Maybe spend a day on site with your guys and make sure they are working. If all a sudden with you on site the jobs are getting done on time theres your problem.

[ChampionLS]

When you saw cut with a cut off saw, you should first use a tape measure and mark your blade 2-1/2" in from the edge. Start it up and let the blade spin and quickly (and carefully) use a permanent marker to draw a continuous 2-1/2" circle. Obviously, if your using 70mm pavers, then it's about 2-7/8" in from the edge.

Now when you saw cut, you can keep a eye on your depth... the edge of your circle should touch the paver. This way your not cutting into your sand layer and wearing your $300 dollar diamond blade out prematurely. It doesn't take long at all to cut this way, but it's VERY DUSTY. If you cut dry, you need a good dust mask and definitely a full face shield. Some saws have a option for small wheels... Otherwise your holding the saw the entire time.

You can cut wet too, but that makes a mess, and forget about sweeping any sand in that day.

[PatriotLandscape]

if you are paying 300 dollars for a diamond blade to cut pavers you are wasting money. For cured concrete the blades are only 85. Also time saved by cutting in place vs.tub cutting far outweighs the cost of the blade.

[JimLewis]

exactly. You should know better than most of us Jim. You cant set your prices based in full on the competition. Granted you cant be that much higher unless you stand out but if they are doing work on par to yours find some key upsell points on why your worth it. Pavers are hard work. Maybe spend a day on site with your guys and make sure they are working. If all a sudden with you on site the jobs are getting done on time theres your problem.

I am not basing my prices on the competitions at all. You guys know me. I always base my prices on expected labor vs. expected materials and expenses. But when I am done getting to that price, I always check my "sq. ft. price" just to see where I arrived. And that's usually about 20% higher than what a lot of paver guys in my area charge. Which is par for the course because our company is generally about 20% higher on everything we do. So I was just using this to compare our rates to what others are charging, not to base my bids off of. It helps me understand if I am in the ballpark or just way the heck off the charts.

Regardless, it seems I am underestimating the labor part on most of these jobs. So our prices for pavers will have to go up, I guess. We are already doing the overlay method and cutting several at a time. I don't want to cut in place. Sounds dangerous as heck. And I haven't seen anything in this thread that has given me a way to speed things up from the way we're currently doing it.

[mrusk]

Jim try the cut in place. Try it once. Its not dangerous. Honestly, the first couple times you do it, it will look like schit and alot of peice will need to be recut. But once you get the hang out it, your jobs will go quicker and look better.

[ChampionLS]

if you are paying 300 dollars for a diamond blade to cut pavers you are wasting money. For cured concrete the blades are only 85. Also time saved by cutting in place vs.tub cutting far outweighs the cost of the blade.

Well maybe not for a hand held, but definitely for the big table saw. The price of the blade is directly related to the diamond content, which relates to how fast it will cut and how many cuts you can make. A good blade, using water can last several years. Don't be fooled by those fancy spray painted import blades, that use a compact disc label in the center. Cheap=Headaches. :hammerhead:

[forestfireguy]

I agree with Matt. Once you get the hang of it you'll dread setting up the wetsaw. If you are careful with your layout of random patterns and try not to have small peices on this inside of the cut it really works well.

[PatriotLandscape]

Well maybe not for a hand held, but definitely for the big table saw. The price of the blade is directly related to the diamond content, which relates to how fast it will cut and how many cuts you can make. A good blade, using water can last several years. Don't be fooled by those fancy spray painted import blades, that use a compact disc label in the center. Cheap=Headaches. :hammerhead:

I was specific in saying cured concrete when we cut other products we use a better blade but for pavers the 85 dollar blade works great. We don't use water when we cut in place and have good blade life.

[zedosix]

Cutting in place = toxic dust cloud