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bcg
05-18-2007, 12:21 PM
So these look like the 2 items in the proposed reforms that would most effect our industry. What are your thoughts on them?

Creating A Temporary Worker Program

To Relieve Pressure On The Border And Provide A Lawful Channel To Meet The Needs Of Our Economy, The Proposal Creates A Temporary Worker Program. The program allows workers to enter the country to fill jobs that Americans are not doing. The temporary worker program:

Protects American workers by requiring U.S. employers to advertise the job in the United States at a competitive wage before hiring a temporary worker.

Provides additional labor protections for temporary worker program participants.
Allows temporary workers to enter the United States to work for three two-year terms, with at least a year spent outside the United States between each term.
Sets a cap of 400,000 on the temporary worker program, which can be adjusted up or down in the future depending on demand.
Requires temporary workers who want to bring their immediate family to show that they have the financial means to support them and that they are covered by health insurance.
Recognizes the unique needs of agriculture by establishing a separate seasonal agriculture component under the temporary worker program.
No Amnesty For Illegal Immigrants


Illegal Immigrants Who Come Out Of The Shadows Will Be Given Probationary Status. To maintain their probationary status, they must pass a background check, remain employed, and maintain a clean criminal record.

Illegal Immigrants Who Fulfill Their Probationary Requirements Can Apply For A Z Card, Which Will Enable Them To Live, Work, And Travel Freely. Z card holders will be required to pay a $1,000 fine, meet accelerated English and civics requirements, remain employed, and renew their visa every four years.

Z Card Holders Will Have An Opportunity To Apply For A Green Card, But Only After:


Paying an additional $4,000 fine,
Applying at the back of the line and waiting until the current backlog is cleared,
Returning to their home country to file their green card application, and
Demonstrating merit under the merit-based system.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070517-7.html

ProLandscapes
05-18-2007, 11:34 PM
I say seal the border tighter than hillary's legs when bill comes looking for some nookie and ship all those criminals back home. Start with all the MS13 thugs and go from there. Why reward people for breaking the law? I know allot of them and they will bang your 10 yr old daughter if they get the chance. Most of them are sick as hell, not all but MOST!

kevjus07
05-18-2007, 11:46 PM
It took me 18 months and thousands of $$$ invested in a business here (I was from UK) to 'do it' legally. What kind of message will be sent out to those following the rules if a $1000 fine makes it OK to have broken the law.

capelawncare.com
05-19-2007, 08:50 AM
All i can say is: I wish I could violate a federal law, not pay taxes and have access to free health care, education and public services for a year or more, then pay a measly fine, and have everything be hunky dorey.

I asked my local congressman where I could apply to have my citizenship revoked, so i could get the same deal. I have yet to hear from him.

T.E.
05-19-2007, 11:44 AM
Yes the old saying if it sounds like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it is a duck. It sounds.... like amnesty to me. Round them up and send their butts back home where they belong. On a side note Oklahoma just passed a law, I forget the number on the bill now, but it is supposed to be the toughest state law in the nation for hiring illegals. We need some more states to pass similar laws, and take our country back from the "Brown Tide" that is taking it over. Later, Tony

Grassmechanic
05-19-2007, 01:27 PM
I agree with you all.

All I need to know about any immigration reform is this: if Ted Kennedy supports it, you know it's a bs piece of legislation.

txgrassguy
05-19-2007, 04:46 PM
First of all, immigration matters are covered under Federal Laws.
No State is allowed to enact, legislate nor alter Federal Laws - it is in the Constitution.
That said, a fact that cannot be overlooked is that the US economy is predicated to a certain degree upon cheap labor. Simply rounding up undocumented workers and "shipping them home" will never occur - for several reasons.
First of all, there is way, way to many undocumented workers, primarily from Central American and Asian countries.
Secondly, it would cost so much to deport these undocumented workers, simple economics prevail to say this will never happen either.
The same economics apply to "sealing" the borders - way too much area to cover, not enough Border Patrol people, and to hire, train, equip and deploy the vast numbers of additional personnel needed means this will never happen either.
Third, most of these countries quite simply will not receive these returnees so like it or not we are stuck with them.
The US cannot incarcerate the undocumented workers, in all reality cannot round all of them up so this means we have to find a way to deal with them here in our country.
Will an amnesty result - probably, pretty much what Reagan resorted to in the eighties will reemerge in a somewhat similar fashion.

ProLandscapes
05-20-2007, 01:17 PM
The border could be sealed in 48hrs if we gave the Army orders to do it!

mountain man
05-20-2007, 09:24 PM
This industry needs legal industry reform for laborers. Most of the comments we see are coming from smaller operations that don't have a need for 10,20,100 or more employees each season. I read thread after thread about how hard it is to find employees, but in the same breath they want to send everyone back to Mexico. If we as an industry cannot find and bring in legal workers then there is no way all of the work can be completed.

By the way, with the H2B system, the guys do pay taxes and they go home every year after the season is completed.

This is a terribly complicated situation. Look at our national industry associations such as Planet. They support immigration reform and raising the H2B limits.

bfstrider
05-21-2007, 03:50 PM
It would be very nice to ship them all back. All illegals. All I know is, that if I break the law in this country (do something illegal) I'll be punished. Why let the illegals come here and not suffer punishment. Send them back and let them go through the proper channels to come here legally. The legal citizens, tax payer in this country keep these people up. Go buy any county health department and look at what is waiting in line. This might open some eyes. I don't see anyone offering to help me or my family and we are legal citizens.

txgrassguy
05-21-2007, 07:45 PM
The border could be sealed in 48hrs if we gave the Army orders to do it!

Never, never, never say something like this:nono:
Unless you want to live in a police state.
Thank goodness for the Posse Comitatus Act and the Insurrection Act which both severely limit the use of Federal Troops on US Soil.
Face it, undocumented individuals are here to stay and we have to find a way too deal with them.
Deportation won't work, incarcerating them won't work, yet transforming these people into tax payers may.
Best case scenario? - Who knows.

SHADESOFGREENLAWNCARE
05-21-2007, 10:31 PM
I am kind of against the plan to legalize the 12,000,000 who are here. My fear is that once they are legal(can drive) they will become more of a competitive threat to me. The smart ones(those that have already mastered English) will no longer need us. Being legal they will simply hire their fellow Mexicans and their American employers will no longer be needed. The only way I can buy off on this program is if our government forces these foreigners to completely play by all of the rules that I(we Americans) are expected to play by. I truly wonder how Americans who do not have managerial abilities can compete in this environment. :walking:

Jim

TURFLORD
05-22-2007, 06:43 AM
I don't see how these laws are going to motivate anyone to change their current situation. Why would an illegal decide to expose theirselves, pay $5000, and return home, when they can just keep doing what they're doing?!

hdhillin
05-22-2007, 08:35 AM
Folks, no matter how you slice it-it is a form of amnesty. There is a percentage who will pay the fines no matter what it is. The problem is that the "12 million" is more like 20 million. Then like the 1986 Immigration Reform Control Act, poor "Jose" who now has amnesty and has set up permanent residence here in the U.S. is now without his family. So then the "Family Fairness" act was passed and they were allowed to bring in their family members legally. So the figures were mulitplied four times. The same thing will happen here. Whether you use 12 or 20 million, they legal ones will be allowed to bring in their family members. So look at this at a minimum 48 million "new residents". The BS, that it is about getting votes is just that. It will be a minimum of 5 years before they are elgible to become Naturalized Citizens with the right to vote. A different political party could be in the reign then. The bottom line is that in the U.S. "cheap labor" is condoned by our Washington Folks. Example- A farmer has 6000 acres of crops every season. He has to have them harvested cheap in order to make a profit. If his laborers are picked up for Immigration violations(being here illegally) then one of two things occurs. His crop is not harvested(loses money) or he has to pay a higher wage to get them harvested, resulting in a higher price at the store. Then since he "lost" money, he can not contribute to any re-election campaign. Problem there is that his congressman or senator do not want to lose his contribution. So they pass whatever "law" they need to pass to keep their pockets lined. These are know documented facts, I am not just spewing rants here.

hdhillin
05-22-2007, 08:45 AM
Sorry but the problem is that once the illegal alien makes it past the border states there is a slim chance of them getting arrested. Government Policy preceeds law. YES that is correct. The government places restrictions on when, where and how agencies can arrest illegal aliens. "ICE" Immigration and Customs Enforcement now has the duties under "Homeland" Security to arrest illegal aliens in the interior of the U.S. There are way too few agents to affectively do that. "CBP" Customs and Border Protection is mainly on the Border states, but are in some interior locations and they can not make arrests for those who are "willing domesticated workers". New coin phrase for "illegal alien". Policy restricts it. See nothing but RED TAPE. Will "6000" new "Border Patrol Agents" (CBP) effectively do the job at the border. NO WAY. Just smoke and mirrors from Washington.

bcg
05-22-2007, 08:49 AM
I don't buy the cheap labor argument. Illegals aren't cheap. In my area, they won't work for less than 80 - 100 per day, or 10+ per hour. H-2B workers aren't cheap either. Not only are there significant upfront costs, none of which guarantee approval for visa, by the way, but you have to pay them a fair wage. I offer $1600/mo minimum for helpers and $2000/mo minimum for crew leads. That's not bad money here and there are ways that the guys can make more money if they want to work for it. Even paying more than my competitors, I can't find reliable US workers. I've been through 5 already this year to fill 1 position. One got paid on Friday and ended up in jail for a week, one just couldn't make it to work on time, one walked off the job in the middle of the day because of personal problems, and a couple decided to just not show up for work. My H-2B workers on the other hand cost me more money to hire and cost me the same to employ but the only problem I have with them is that they're constantly complaining to me that they want more work. That's what it's about, RELIABLE and WILLING labor, not CHEAP.

hdhillin
05-22-2007, 09:00 AM
Hey BCG,
You are right "RELIABLE and WILLING labor" is the key. you have gone through the p-i-t-a to do things the right way using H-2B workers. But what I have encountered is most companies do not. My hat is off to you.
However in the construction industry it at times is cheap labor. Example a drywall company bids low on the per sheet end and gets the job. A legitimate U.S. company who pays all the taxes and workmans comp can not bid low in order to make money due to overhead. So the "other" company has many workers to get the job done quicker, thus enabling them to go to the next job quicker, getting more jobs done at a lower rate. That is just an example of some of the headaches with "cheap labor" that I meant.

bcg
05-22-2007, 09:17 AM
My point though, and I didn't make it very well, was that you can't solve any immigration problem until you realize that there is a real need in this country for guest workers because as a rule the people that are born here are far too lazy to actually work for a living. As long as there is this gaping hole that employers need to fill and no way to do so legally (66k H-2B visas is a joke) people (employers and workers) will continue to do what they have to in order to keep their businesses running and/or their families fed. If you fix this problem, illegal border traffic goes WAY down and it all os a sudden becomes a much smaller job to secure it.

As for the "amnesty" or whatever you want to call it, I don't really think that we can afford the costs to deport these people. They're for the most part doing jobs that American's don't want, not because the pay is bad in most cases but because the work sucks in some way or another. If you accept that, then the only real solution to them seems to be to turn them into taxpayers in one way or another so that they can help finance the services that they're using. The new bill takes away the family preference for immigration so I'm not so sure that doing this is going to turn 12m into 48m as was suggested above.

GreenN'Clean
05-22-2007, 10:05 AM
I say forget about patrolling the border and wasting money on building a fence and go after all the employers who are giving illegals jobs in the first place. You hit the employers hard with stiff fines and possible jail time and illegals wont have any jobs to come here for and that will solve the illegal problems. Building a fence is just to keep the American people quiet and to take pressure off of the issue. If the government wanting to stop illegal immigration it could very easily be done. Put an end to the job sources for them and they will go back home without any Americans hard earned money. Illegals come here for only one reason and thats to make fast cash and then to send all there money back home to Mexico where there money made here illegally will triple over there.

GreenN'Clean
05-22-2007, 10:13 AM
Im sick of hearing that illegals will do the jobs Americans won't!!!! They say Americans don't want to do Landscaping jobs,constructions jobs, etc well I know I bust my azz 7 days a week doing landscaping running a construction company and another business on the side and I don't and I won't hire any illegal to do work for any of my Businesses. The only people I ever see that thinks its ok for hiring illegals and wanting a guest worker program are the ones profiting off of illegals, and they are the core to why taxes and health costs are soaring. Well I don't need an illegal to do any of my work and never will because I don't want to help contribute to the down fall of America.

bfstrider
05-22-2007, 11:26 AM
Big fines and possibly prison for big businesses that hire illegals. This would probably help and is a good idea. At least it would be worth a try. However, it will never happen because these big businesses are the one's that pad our politician's pockets. Their (politicians) are not going to bite the hand that feeds them. This country is a capitallistic country not a democratic one. It is run by big money.

MarcSmith
05-22-2007, 11:51 AM
build a fence big mutha nucking fence. HS graduatates or those who drop out of highschool must serve 2 years patrolling the border for the US Armed forces reserve units. Whether it be Coast guard, Navy army marines, It doesn't matter 2 years of free training.

Deportation.

Amtrak is subsidised by the US Government. Amtrak trains don't always run fully loaded. fill em up and ship em to the closest foreign border, Canada or Mexico doesn't matter. If then entered Mexico Illegally to get across out borders, then Mexico needs to do a better job securing its borders. Same with Canada, let them deal with a a problem they helped contribute to.

Fines
Fining the illegals hurt them more than deportation. in most cases they spend 2-5K just getting here, and then they send 1/2 of their pay back to across th e border. By taking 5000 away from them, it means they have work that much harder to get back across the border a second time.

But I don't think you can honestly round up 12 million people. Grant them citizenship, provided they register for citizen classes, english language classes, ect. If they do that and they pass the test, I welcome them. If they decide not to register or fail the classes send em to the closest border.

Cut welfare distribution to a maximum of 1 year unless you are are honestly disabled, ect. This will make more people available to work. Now they may not be the best employees, but if they realize that they wont' have any money...

Grassmechanic
05-22-2007, 01:37 PM
Can't find the illegals and send them back??

Get real. Put a bounty on them.

bullethead
05-22-2007, 03:50 PM
I'm with BCG on this - unemployment rate is in the 4% range. Have you ever seen it any lower? The current unemployed populace is unemployable by and large. These guys are not "taking" jobs from americans. They are working their arses off and making well above minimum wage. They will continue to do so when confronted with the alternative which is return South of the border and trade their $600/wk gig for a $60/wk gig.

We just need a realistic guest worker program. All they want is to come here and make more money than they are back home. Many could care less about staying permanently and they would not - if it was easier to come and go vis-a-vis a simplified guest worker program. They would comply with the terms and we could easily track them if there was a program that was not so freakin cumbersome. For the most part - these guys don't want welfare, ss etc - why the hell do we feel compelled to give it to them. I realize you don't get that impression when watching the hispanic talking heads on tv - but they don't represent the majority of the guys that come here looking for work.

What is with allowing people to come for 2 years, then having to go back for a year - what a waste. Talk about a compliance nightmare as well as terribly inefficient for anyone who employs said individuals.

I'm just rambling but I'm so tired of hearing all the arguments from both sides. My bottom line is that I think - 1) You don't have to give away the ranch to get a seasonal workforce. 2) If you think we don't need the workforce, you are extremely ignorant of reality. (Let me put it to you another way, would you rather have americans performing high paying/highly skilled jobs or drain this talent pool so they will be overpaid low skill level workers). Our country benefits from this seasonal workforce and without it our country is not going to be nearly as competitive on many more levels than people realize.

hdhillin
05-22-2007, 05:05 PM
many different opinions on this subject. Some are for the program others are not. Like some of you have said, if the Americans would not hire them and the welfare sucking Americans were willing to work there would not be a problem. However in our lifetime we will not see that. Thanks for those of you who support not hiring them.

MarcSmith
05-23-2007, 07:51 AM
I'm just rambling but I'm so tired of hearing all the arguments from both sides. My bottom line is that I think - 1) You don't have to give away the ranch to get a seasonal workforce. 2) If you think we don't need the workforce, you are extremely ignorant of reality. (Let me put it to you another way, would you rather have americans performing high paying/highly skilled jobs or drain this talent pool so they will be overpaid low skill level workers). Our country benefits from this seasonal workforce and without it our country is not going to be nearly as competitive on many more levels than people realize.

Do we need the cheap labor....Yes. But we need more than just cheap legal help. We need cheap help that has a work ethic. This is were the latins kick our butts. Most latins from the grunt labor side of things have a tremendous work ethic and will out work a comparable american for the most part. Yes there are americans who are not afraid to work, but there are also american' who think a high paying job is an entitlement which also means they can skate by on putting in a solid 5 hours of work on a 8 hour shift. plus taking a 15 minute smoke break every 60 minutes

Are all Americans Highly paid and highly skilled ( I am suppressing copius amounts of laughter) No. If all americans were highly skilled, and highly paid, then we'd have no other choice but to outsource our labor. If an american who has a BS in Computer engineering and he can't get a job, what good is his talent when he's sitting on welfare or on unemployment....It aint' worth squat.....Especially when he could be working, whether it be a trash man, landscape laborer, clerk at Safeway, any number of jobs. Yes they may be "beneath" that person's intellect, but sitting in welfare or unemployment should not be an option.

Are there people on welfare who really need to be on welfare....You bet.... Are there people who are on the unemployment roster who deserve to be there..Yup. But there are also countless number of people who work the system and cleaning up those folks and actually getting them working would also be a good start.

But that only accounts for about the 3,000,000 people on welfare and of those many need to be there. So even if 1/2 of folks on welfare are able bodies workers you are still left with an incredible shortfall of labor.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t09.htm

unemployment number based on duration at the above link...

is there any reason why someone should be unemployed for more than 5 weeks? HELL NO....18% of those unemployed have been out of work for 27 weeks or more...6 freeking months....

bcg
05-23-2007, 06:09 PM
Brilliant -

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Senate voted Wednesday to slash the number of foreign workers who could come to the U.S. on temporary visas as part of a broad bipartisan immigration bill.

A new guest worker program would be capped at 200,000 a year under the proposal, which passed 74-24 over strong opposition by the Bush administration.

Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez said the change, proposed by Sen. Jeff Bingaman, D-N.M., would interfere with a "central component" of the White House-backed immigration measure. That plan provided for 400,000 worker visas annually, plus an option to increase that number to 600,000 if market conditions demand it.


http://apnews.excite.com/article/20070523/D8PAB1IG1.html

The one thing in the bill that would really make a difference and they trash it. Makes perfect sense...

hdhillin
05-23-2007, 10:23 PM
Well Said Marc Smith

bullethead
05-24-2007, 12:13 PM
Just sent another letter to Sen Kay Bailey Hutchison - I am so sick of politicians (ALL of 'em). Something works, well we have to change it (Democrats on current tax structure). Something doesn't work (immigration policy), then,basically, we are not going do anything that materially impacts the current situation, just rant about it/grab some headlines for awhile.

Grassmechanic
05-25-2007, 09:44 AM
I find it simply amazing that people find it Ok to have cheap labor when it comes to the migrants working in this country but the same ones hoot and holler everytime a Wal-Mart opens.

MarcSmith
05-25-2007, 10:05 AM
I find it simply amazing that people find it Ok to have cheap labor when it comes to the migrants working in this country but the same ones hoot and holler everytime a Wal-Mart opens.

but the two events are on totally different subjectsoppisite ends of the spectrum.
Big box stores do nothing to help anyone, except offer lower prices, poor service, run older established stores out of business as a result of predatory pricing(lowballing) Wasted use of limited real estate. Most if not all big box will not occupy an older store since they want to be bigger..so you end up with a large building that goes unused and even when empty it still sucks power from the power grid and contributed to urban heat island effect and urban sprawl, resulting in more wasted natural resources as people need to drive further to get the "cheap" prices since the mom and mop store a block away is now out of business...

Grassmechanic
05-25-2007, 10:17 AM
You need to listen to the spew coming from the left. Their biggest complaint against Wal-Mart is low paying jobs with no benefits.

How many of the farm jobs that these migrants coming into the U.S. are going to be employed at, fall into the same category. My guess would be most, if not all, of them. Is the left going to start vilifying the low paying farmers next??

This "immigration reform" is nothing more than the left legalizing millions of new voters that they can pander to with their entitlements.

MarcSmith
05-25-2007, 10:31 AM
You need to listen to the spew coming from the left. Their biggest complaint against Wal-Mart is low paying jobs with no benefits.


So wal-mart or any other business offers jobs, at "low" wages...No one applies for these jobs except immigrants....and its wal-marts fault that American's won't take the jobs? But yet americans are the first to complain to that they can't speak to the people working at wal-mart since they don't speak english....but yet the same ones complaining won't take a job at walmart but they'll glady spend their food stamps there.... and when walmart raises prices to accommodate Americans who demand higher pay (for less work ethic) Americans complain about the higher prices and take their money elsewhere.... Vicious circle of life.

Grassmechanic
05-26-2007, 12:23 PM
You have completely missed my whole point. I'll let you think about it a little more.

regl
05-27-2007, 08:05 AM
I am kind of against the plan to legalize the 12,000,000 who are here. My fear is that once they are legal(can drive) they will become more of a competitive threat to me. The smart ones(those that have already mastered English) will no longer need us. Being legal they will simply hire their fellow Mexicans and their American employers will no longer be needed. The only way I can buy off on this program is if our government forces these foreigners to completely play by all of the rules that I(we Americans) are expected to play by. I truly wonder how Americans who do not have managerial abilities can compete in this environment. :walking:

Jim

I think this statement hits the nail on the head. As long as they are illegal, most homeowners won't hire them, although they are tempted by the cheap labor compared to the local LCO's. Since there has been no enforcement in this area anyway, some people are hiring illegals directly for things like gardening and housekeeping. If illegals are made legal, many people won't hesitate to hire them instead of the locals who are in that business.