PDA

View Full Version : Cast Patina Procedure


pcrispy
06-06-2007, 05:20 PM
For anyone interested, I thought that I would post a couple pics of a Cast bullet that has had the "black" patina procedure performed to it according to Tony Grieco's tutorial at:

http://www.cast-lighting.com/art-tony-color.html

For anyone like myself that does not like the typical "green" patina nature of copper materials (first a chalky white residue and then the slow turn to a chalky green color), this procedure did give me an instant "black" patina that I am much more happy with. The results were almost instantaneous on the bronze however it at first has more of a very dark green color to it (the color of the ammonia/sulfur liquid) but when it dries it is much more rustic black with hints of bronze. For kicks, I shot a spray of the solution on the "logo" side of the fixture record tag (which is copper) and that stuff went instantly to jet black. No speckles, gradation's or anything, just jet black. Some wiping with a rag while it is still wet will remove enough of the black to match the bronze coloring, but I will be removing all of the tags before spraying because it might be hard to read them when the entire tag is black. Anyhow, I saw the picture that Cast had on the web and so I thought that I would confirm that this procedure indeed provides the described results. The first pic shows a before and after comparison. Of course, the solution does smell like rotten eggs, but you probably want to do this outside anyhow. A good tip from Tony was to do color testing on the bronze stake first, then if you (or client) doesn't like the color in person, the stake gets buried in the ground anyhow so it doesn't matter.

Chris J
06-06-2007, 09:50 PM
Ya know, I've always considered cast to be a pretty significant product in the market, but there aren't alot of cast installers in my area. A while back, I got some disturbing info that the cast fixtures that were installed in this area were failing miserably which caused me to stop my looking any further. Someone in the know, you have my permission to slam me to set me straight (I have strong shoulders). It may be the installers fault that these installations failed, but the name got the bad rape nonetheless. In regard to the above mentioned patina, I can't say one way or another whether I like the way this looks. What will matter, aesthetically anyway, is what will happen after the calcium deposits and pitting builds up. Will they then look like any other aluminum or brass fixture in coastal Florida? Corrosion here does not discriminate. I don't care if it is brass, bronze or copper. The fixture and it's finish will not look anywhere near the same in 2 years. Which brings me to my next point which is this: The critical point on the fixture is the socket... Are the sockets in these bronze fixtures any different than the brass or copper or even the marine grade aluminum? This thread is probably one that will go on for a while so here we go.......:cool2:.... Bring it on!

Pro-Scapes
06-06-2007, 10:50 PM
Crisp nice work on the patina. I did some outside and made a quick frame and covered it in chicken wire to make a drip rack. some people love it some hate it.

in our experience CAST has been a staple. A few issues we have had...

The way they pack the bullets in 6 packs sometimes lets them slam together causing the convex lenses to crack. Sometimes the o rings get stuck and break on removal so keep some of these handy..

Wall Wash..Solid built fixture but non tiltable forcing you to stake in at an angle... a problem in soft bed areas.

Every so often you get a "hat" in the area lights that is a bit warped... seems to be limited to the china hats. I attibute this to the hand made nature of the product ????

ZERO problems with failure in the field with the exception of a bad batch of bulbs that seemed to go out within a month (all came from the same box and were babs). Some fixtures even get excessive water contact.

In your sandy soils you may find you want to use a stronger stake like the cast heavy duty stakes or perma posts as the area lights are heavy and can have a hard time in loose ground remaining straight.

Tree lights... I love the cast tree light and the mounting hardware. Its been really good for us but there is one drawback... The longer shroud (which helps cut down on the dreadded glare) does decrease the angle on a 60 degree bulb... how much im not sure.

There is another company installing a few cast lights around here. Poor design and im not sure on thier workmanship but if they developed a rep for failing there I would have to say it was installer error... Its a solid product in my opinion. Zero problems with sockets. Remember this is my roasting of the brand and all the above issues are pretty limited with the O rings being my biggest gripe followed by the half a dozen cracked lenses out of the box.

We yanked some FX fixtures 2 years old ... finish fading and peeling from bird droppings (ammonia????) and replaced with cast... they turned white... then dark bronze... been like then since... a little darker everytime we visit but still rock solid. I might just take one and subject it to alot of abuse and speed up the (kill the fixture) process to see.

steveparrott
06-06-2007, 10:51 PM
Ok, I guess I have your permission to bring it on. I'm not aware of the failures that you describe. Unless you're referring to some early socket failures about three years back. That was a short term problem and we retrofitted new sockets in all the fixtures affected.

You're right to question what components are used in the fixtures - sockets, crimps, wiring, etc. I'd love to elaborate on what CAST does but that would violate the forum rules. (I'm already treading the line.)

You're wrong when you say that corrosion doesn't discriminate. Once bronze patinas to its bluish green color, it pretty much stays that way for the next 3,000 years - no pitting, no flaking, no cracking, nothing.

All the other materials you mention suffer from progressive types of corrosion that eventually compromise the integrity of the metal. For some interesting info on corrosion, go to http://www.corrosion-doctors.org.

High Performance Lighting
06-06-2007, 11:04 PM
Ya know, I've always considered cast to be a pretty significant product in the market, but there aren't alot of cast installers in my area. A while back, I got some disturbing info that the cast fixtures that were installed in this area were failing miserably which caused me to stop my looking any further. Someone in the know, you have my permission to slam me to set me straight (I have strong shoulders). It may be the installers fault that these installations failed, but the name got the bad rape nonetheless. In regard to the above mentioned patina, I can't say one way or another whether I like the way this looks. What will matter, aesthetically anyway, is what will happen after the calcium deposits and pitting builds up. Will they then look like any other aluminum or brass fixture in coastal Florida? Corrosion here does not discriminate. I don't care if it is brass, bronze or copper. The fixture and it's finish will not look anywhere near the same in 2 years. Which brings me to my next point which is this: The critical point on the fixture is the socket... Are the sockets in these bronze fixtures any different than the brass or copper or even the marine grade aluminum? This thread is probably one that will go on for a while so here we go.......:cool2:.... Bring it on!

Chris, Can you be more specific about the nature of the alleged fixture failures. As for the finish your main concern should be that the fixture won't rust. And they shouldn't if they don't have any exposed ferrous metals that were mixed into the brass castings. I would be concerned about what appears to be an aluminum lock nut (I may be wrong perhaps it's stainless- can't tell from the photo-should be brass though to better match the fixture). The only acid finish I've experienced looking pretty good after an extended period of time in the field is verde. You have to remember though we are not selling ornaments (with the exception of wall mnts and post mnts etc) we are selling landscape lights that should blend naturely and conceal within the landscape. Mother nature doesn't take pity on them and they are exposed to the harshest of elements. A good bullet should lock in place and stay in place over the long haul, should keep the socket and lamp dry. Definately keep insects out. Be able to accept optional lenses and mounts. provide excellent shielding and be easy to re-lamp. Sockets must also be built to last. I don't like the bullets that have a butt splice between the socket wire and the spt cable. I believe the wire should be continuous until it is connected to the power cable and then buried directly under the fixture. Obviously I'm not a proponent of the hub or spider system which features 16 gauge spliced on wire leads. oh did I leave out that they should be user friendly and field adjustable without tools. This really helps during nightime aiming sessions. I'm also not a fan of the "jack in the box fixtures". the ones that spring out at you when you take the lens cover off because the body is too small to house the lamp. I prefer a stationery socket mount that places the lamp not right up against the glass but 1" recessed behind it

Chris J
06-07-2007, 12:04 AM
Chris, Can you be more specific about the nature of the alleged fixture failures. As for the finish your main concern should be that the fixture won't rust. And they shouldn't if they don't have any exposed ferrous metals that were mixed into the brass castings. I would be concerned about what appears to be an aluminum lock nut (I may be wrong perhaps it's stainless- can't tell from the photo-should be brass though to better match the fixture). The only acid finish I've experienced looking pretty good after an extended period of time in the field is verde. You have to remember though we are not selling ornaments (with the exception of wall mnts and post mnts etc) we are selling landscape lights that should blend naturely and conceal within the landscape. Mother nature doesn't take pity on them and they are exposed to the harshest of elements. A good bullet should lock in place and stay in place over the long haul, should keep the socket and lamp dry. Definately keep insects out. Be able to accept optional lenses and mounts. provide excellent shielding and be easy to re-lamp. Sockets must also be built to last. I don't like the bullets that have a butt splice between the socket wire and the spt cable. I believe the wire should be continuous until it is connected to the power cable and then buried directly under the fixture. Obviously I'm not a proponent of the hub or spider system which features 16 gauge spliced on wire leads. oh did I leave out that they should be user friendly and field adjustable without tools. This really helps during nightime aiming sessions. I'm also not a fan of the "jack in the box fixtures". the ones that spring out at you when you take the lens cover off because the body is too small to house the lamp. I prefer a stationery socket mount that places the lamp not right up against the glass but 1" recessed behind it

Mike,
The only specifics I ever heard were just general statements like "melted sockets" "fixtures falling apart" etc... At the time that I heard these statements, which were in fact about 2 years ago, I really didn't even care that much as I was pretty content with what I was using.
I absolutely agree with what you are saying about not selling ornaments (hence my statement on sockets). I'm all for longevity over pretty.

Steve,
Pcrispy is working with appearance here. My statements are to encourage discussion on the "appearance" after weather happens. Even if you take corrosion out of the equation, there are still factors to consider that will effect the appearance of any fixture: Sun (UV fading), Irrigation, iron, calcium, other minerals found in the water. All of these will find their way onto the fixture which will influence the "appearance". I acknowledge that the product is substantial, but I am simply addressing the issue at hand. Please don't take my statements as an attack on Cast.
Again, the bottom line is that the interior of the fixture continues to work. The outside of the fixture is not what is lighting up your objects; correct or no?

High Performance Lighting
06-07-2007, 12:30 AM
Ok, I guess I have your permission to bring it on. I'm not aware of the failures that you describe. Unless you're referring to some early socket failures about three years back. That was a short term problem and we retrofitted new sockets in all the fixtures affected.

You're right to question what components are used in the fixtures - sockets, crimps, wiring, etc. I'd love to elaborate on what CAST does but that would violate the forum rules. (I'm already treading the line.)

You're wrong when you say that corrosion doesn't discriminate. Once bronze patinas to its bluish green color, it pretty much stays that way for the next 3,000 years - no pitting, no flaking, no cracking, nothing.

All the other materials you mention suffer from progressive types of corrosion that eventually compromise the integrity of the metal. For some interesting info on corrosion, go to http://www.corrosion-doctors.org.


In all fairness I will tell you that every manufacturer has had their share of failed product. The good ones don't deny it, learn from it , make future adaptations and repair or replace without a song and a dance.

Chris J
06-07-2007, 01:58 AM
[QUOTE=steveparrott;1855154]Ok, I guess I have your permission to bring it on. I'm not aware of the failures that you describe. Unless you're referring to some early socket failures about three years back. That was a short term problem and we retrofitted new sockets in all the fixtures affected.

You're right to question what components are used in the fixtures - sockets, crimps, wiring, etc. I'd love to elaborate on what CAST does but that would violate the forum rules. (I'm already treading the line.)

Thanks for not hammering me too bad Steve, but where are the rules that state that you can not elaborate on the components of the products? I will trust that you know what you are talking about, but I do want you to know that I am interested in the product line. Please email me directly if you can't post it within the limits of this forum.

Thanks,

Eden Lights
06-07-2007, 02:25 AM
When I first saw the Cast marketing materials and read the web site, I thought these people got it together. I thought I got to check them out, so I bought a package and donated it to my Daughters' school spring auction. I had to order out of NC and the shipping was very expensive due to weight of the products, I think we have a closer supplier now. While I did like the materials, here are a few things that stopped me from selling any of the fixtures.

MR16 bullet: some shrouds were tight and some were loose, tight ones were all lubed up, but I still had to move some of the shrouds around to stop the o-rings from getting cut. Some of the fixtures were loose between the body and the knuckle at the large o-ring. All that wire slowed me down when burying in a mature landscape. Prismatic spread lenses were cut very shallow and too small, clips didn't work well and the overall spring, lamp, lens, and clip slowed me way down. I ended up using different clips and lenses from another supplier. I like to hammer my stakes in with a rubber mallet and that is very slow with 25 feet of wire going through the stake that should be removed, so you can dig holes or you can remove the stake from the fixture, either one is very slow. Last thing was a big one for me, was that the fixture is not aimable because you cannot lossen or tighten the lock nut because it is recessed. ( Take a look at the above pics, please explain if you can?)

Path lights: looked great and look even better today. I cut the wire short on the them and then hammered the stakes and reinstalled the fixture since no aiming is required on a pathlight. I did have trouble with the odd looking single contact lamps due to short life (single contact xenon maybe?) I ended up using conversion plugs to go to a Bi-Pin Lamp which solved the problems.

Tree downlight: excellent

Transformers: excellent ( I love the extra common on the big boys to help with balancing loads)

While I think the system will stand the test of time now that it's installed and the kinks are worked out, but who's got the time go through all that? Maybe some of these issues have been resolved?

Pro-Scapes
06-07-2007, 08:46 AM
Eden thats funny you mention aiming... I have had Zero probs with aiming the bullets. Perhaps these were past issues and are resolved now ? What I do when prepping fixtures and lamping is losen up the lock nut (Mike I think this is stainless) and give my self some room then when I aim at night a simple push on the lock nut with a screw driver will lock it down.

I have had 1 or 2 "bad" castings which I returned for credit with no prob where the hoods didnt fit right. I dont use the clips with lenses either. Just slip then lens in and put the hood on.

Eden Lights
06-07-2007, 09:37 AM
Eden thats funny you mention aiming... I have had Zero probs with aiming the bullets. Perhaps these were past issues and are resolved now ? What I do when prepping fixtures and lamping is losen up the lock nut (Mike I think this is stainless) and give my self some room then when I aim at night a simple push on the lock nut with a screw driver will lock it down.

I have had 1 or 2 "bad" castings which I returned for credit with no prob where the hoods didnt fit right. I dont use the clips with lenses either. Just slip then lens in and put the hood on.


Pro-Scapes, as shown in the pictures the aiming problem has not been resolved. I figured out and used the same procedure you use, but I was considering that far from acceptable from an install procedure and a reliability issue.

Pro-Scapes
06-07-2007, 09:47 AM
wow... It takes me all of about 3 seconds. If you think the cast lights are bad try the focus dl13 bullets... what a joke... for leads they even had plain blue butt crimps like you find in an auto parts store... far from acceptable.

I really havent had an issue aiming the cast lights and once you lock down the knuckle good it stays pretty well. Only aiming issue I have had with cast lights is the wall wash. Perhaps they will put a knuckle on that later.

steveparrott
06-07-2007, 10:30 AM
Eden et all, at this point (as being from CAST) I don't feel comfortable addressing each of these points in the forum (although I certainly stand by the quality of the products).

I'd just like you all to know that there is no one in the industry as passionate as Dave Beausoleil (President and founder of CAST) regarding quality. We are constantly looking for ways to improve our products and have made a host of improvements over the years.

David Gretzmier
06-07-2007, 10:34 AM
eden- thanks for the post, sounds like a fair and reasonable explanation to me. I like bullets/spots shipped separate from stakes, I use a rubber mallet as well. FX packs their bullets with stake installed, you have to Uninstall it to pound in the stake, so I can relate. I don't use FX fixtures just because of the time in this.

I don't know about that black/verde finish. Most folks like the bronze finish, but that isn't something I'd call bronze. I don't use cast, but my customers would prefer the original cast look and let them age.

The most important for me is the effect, "waterproofness" and the related socket life.

The bullet I use has a double O-ring at the shroud and a double shot of silicone inside and outside at the wire exit. this belt and suspenders approach works for me now.

pcrispy
06-07-2007, 11:10 AM
Wow! I honestly was just trying to show that people have a nice instant "black" option compared to the typical verde process. If I could choose, I would like the original appearance to stay like that for ever but nature won't let that happen. I really can't stand the chalky green verde so I was happy to see the results from the black process so that the lights disappear more easily with the mulch and plants.

One major advantage of the Cast bullet that no one has pointed out is that it can be used as an excellent self defense weapon against muggers, dogs, etc. The stake makes a nice handle and the bullet is a wicked solid billy club. ;) Those things are absolute tanks compared to the typical aluminum fixture. Step on an aluminum fixture while doing some landscape work, you bend and flatten the fixture. Step on a Cast bullet while doing landscaping, you hurt your foot, roll your ankle, etc.

Everyone will have a favorite fixture and favorite brand. What fun would it be if everyone in the world had the exact same looking lights. That would take away the neighborly discussions about what brand they are and competition of keeping up with the Jones'. Such as: mine are solid bronze, the same as an Olympic medal, too bad yours are just aluminum. :gunsfirin

Chris J
06-07-2007, 11:29 AM
Crispy,
You should know by now that you can't just make simple, harmless comments on here. :nono: That's what makes this forum so much fun; someone opens a door with a topic of choice, and everyone rushes in! Thanks for the post though. It does incite some great conversation.

David Gretzmier
06-07-2007, 09:19 PM
One major advantage of the Cast bullet that no one has pointed out is that it can be used as an excellent self defense weapon against muggers, dogs, etc. The stake makes a nice handle and the bullet is a wicked solid billy club. Those things are absolute tanks compared to the typical aluminum fixture. Step on an aluminum fixture while doing some landscape work, you bend and flatten the fixture. Step on a Cast bullet while doing landscaping, you hurt your foot, roll your ankle, etc.

Sorry- I'll take mike g's fixtures in a street fight over cast any day. :hammerhead: but I will take a cast over a malibu.

I will grant you that cast is more of a one handed dagger for close fighting, while mike g's is more of a two handed sword for group throwdown.

can you see it now, mike g's well light on a chain, twirling around your head- ARRGH, GET YOUR VOLTAGE RIGHT !!!:dizzy:

High Performance Lighting
06-07-2007, 10:02 PM
"Sorry- I'll take mike g's fixtures in a street fight over cast any day"

Gee Dave that's a very kind thing to say. I'm touched.

Go Halogen
06-07-2007, 11:40 PM
I have seen some of the faults that ProScapes has, concerning Cast.
I have seen issues with every Manufacturers materials. Steve, I guess that you are a Cast employee. You defend Cast as though it was "the prefect Brand of lighting". 3000 thousand years.....come on. I have relamped Cast fixtures (recently) that were 2 1/2 years old. The socket was crumbling, the o-rings were dry rotted, the white jacket on the socket wire was flaking off........Cast is not perfect. I would not tout your product as being the end all. It may be a long lasting metal, that is great.....but make sure that all of the components hold up under the vigors. I have also noticed that Cast product heats up more than most. Another down fall of an all brass fixtures. Brass/Bronze/Copper has its place, but I would not lamp higher than 20 watts when using those metals. Powder coated fixtures are out there and they have their place as well. What can I say.....I am a Quality Control Freak.

Chris J
06-08-2007, 12:29 AM
Let's assume there was not a difference in price for a moment. When would one use copper over brass or vise versa. Is there any significant difference that would make one better than the other in an extremely corrosive environment like "beach front" homes or "really near the beach"? For the sake of this argument, let's assume we are talking about MR16 Bullets. Which would be the preferred metal?

Go Halogen
06-08-2007, 12:45 AM
Personally, I would use a brass or composite fixture. Brass does have that nautical quality that most beach home owners love to see. Composite is a no worry, anti-corrosive choice. There are some manufacturers that have some great composite fixtures.

High Performance Lighting
06-08-2007, 12:56 AM
If cost was equal, when would one use copper over brass or vise versa. Is there any significant difference that would make one better than the other in an extremely corrosive environment like "beach front" homes or "really near the beach"?

I think the answer to your question depends upon the application and personal preference . Brass, copper or bronze should give you a lifetime of service from the fixture without rusting. However there are different grades of brass and copper namely the heft, thickness and overall durability. You've got your cast brass or bronze (copper can be casted but rare in our industry) which is molten metal poured either into a sand casted mold or a die cast metal mold. usually castings are heavier more dense, more reliable and difficult to damage. then you have your lighter duty spun or rolled copper or brass sheet metal fixtures. There are also different thicknesses of these materials as well. The lesser quality ones are thin walled while the better quality ones are thicker and will stand up better to abuse (ie-gardener)

Raw Copper takes on it's own character and will oxidize and patina rapidly when exposed to the elements. The degree of "patinazation" will depend upon exposure type.
Rolled or spun brass is typically yellow brass and requires an acid dipped or applied stained finish or it looks lousy. The quality of stained finishes also differs depending upon who applies it. Some apply a clear lacquer , some don't etc.

Copper, brass and bronze are all excellent conductors of heat. Some fixtures can get as hot as a branding iron. Heat shrinks in the cast molds of some fixtures are mostly cosmetic and I haven't found it useful in bringing the temperature down when the fixture is on. The smaller the lamp compartment the hotter the fixture will get. Bottom line is advise your clients to teach their children to keep hands off.

Some people hate raw copper out of the box and freak out when you install a fixture not knowing that in short time that shiny copper drum cymbal will really mellow out and turn a mahogany brown or verdigris blue-green depending on how close to salt ocean air you are.

Chris J
06-08-2007, 08:29 AM
Wonderful information. Thank you very much.

David Gretzmier
06-09-2007, 01:46 AM
Brass/Bronze/Copper has its place, but I would not lamp higher than 20 watts when using those metals.

OK- Is this true? seriously ? . I need all of you to chime in on this- What- 90 % of all fixtures I see are made of these materials.

High Performance Lighting
06-09-2007, 09:37 AM
Brass/Bronze/Copper has its place, but I would not lamp higher than 20 watts when using those metals.

OK- Is this true? seriously ? . I need all of you to chime in on this- What- 90 % of all fixtures I see are made of these materials.

That's just one man's opinion. I don't lamp over 35 watts under any circumstances anyway but you have to be able to decipher fact from opinion on here. That's how rumours get started.

hmproservices
06-10-2007, 02:35 AM
It is interesting the course that this thread has taken. There has been some truly great info put out here. To somewhat reinforce what has been said here by some I have a testimonial to share from a call I received today. I got called out to a client's property where I had recently installed a 35 light CAST system. Apparently my client had a dump truck deliver a load of CR6 to his property and the driver backed over one of the bullets I installed on the side of the house(in a bed). Needless to say he nearly hit the house. When I got there the shroud of the bullet was pressed into the ground about 6 inches and the body of the fixture wasn't visible. So I dug out the fixture and removed the caked on clay/gravel. To my complete surprise the fixture was fully functional aside from a small scratch on the lens and shroud. These fixtures are great. My client was beyond impressed. With this being said I stand behind the CAST system and design 100%. I have had no problems with any of the CAST products that I have installed with the exception of the occasional bad bulb. In response to a few earlier posts, the reason for all the extra wire (25' 12-2 at the fixture) is to provide a basis for voltage drop calculations to the bulb from the splice. So if you cut the leads on the fixture you are throwing a portion of the spider splice initiative out the window. I also haven’t had any problems with setting the lights. There really isn’t a need to remove the stake from the fixture. I take the pointy end of a pick axe and hit the spot that I want to set the light a couple of times to slightly loosen the soil. Then, if I am installing a bullet I fold the head over 90 degrees and tap it in with a rubber mallet. It works excellent. Just my .02

Mike & Lucia
06-10-2007, 08:49 AM
I started with Cast using their fixtures exclusively. I quickly added other manufacturers to my bag, but Cast still represents about one third of my installs. Some notes:

Tree light - in my opinion the best on the market. Easy to install, aim and service.

Wash light - simply the worst. I spoke to Dave B. shortly after it hit the market and asked about an adjustable knuckle. He told me that would add about $25 to the fixture, and installers wouldn't be willing to pay for it. So that renders the unit useless in most apps. Also, we had a major burnout problem due to the fixture not being sealed. Cast provided retrofit gaskets (which I think now come factory installed) but... what a headache. I still eat a bunch of warranty wedge base 3156 on service calls. Live and learn.

Bullet lights- we WD40 the fixtures (all types) to control and slow the patina process. When it does begin to turn, it is more slowly, more even and darker. Rust spots happen, and piss me off big time on a solid cast bronze fixture, where does the ferrous material come from?

Trannys- rock solid, but I don't use the big boys with the extra tap anymore. They are UL listed for general use, not 1838, for landscape lighting use. With regs heated up to boiling point in NJ, I'm not taking any chances. With proper planning, 10 ga wire and such, I haven't needed a tap over 15 in two years.

Niche lights are awesome if you remove the shiny reflector from inside. The older model didn't have this and emits a warm reddish glow, great under pergolas.

Deck light - the extra wire make installation in deck posts and masonry walls a snap, cut off what you don't need.

As for 25' leads. If you understand voltage drop and wiring methods you can adjust the hub system to your needs. The hub method is sold to the industry as the end-all 'goof-proof wiring method, it is NOT. It is a bona fide method to be used in its place, but by no means the only way. We never wrap up 20 feet of extra wire and bury it. It is marketing to the landscaper who will "throw in some lights" as an add-on (one of my philosophical beefs with Dave B. and Cast Lighting) where the hub propaganda is aimed. Don't drink the Kool Aid!

All in all, a solid line. Gentlemen, choose your weapons!

Mike

BPC
06-10-2007, 11:15 AM
As for the original post. I still hadn't tried that and I like the look of it. There was one customer a couple years ago that wanted black lights so I ended up painting them. A little spray primer and paint and they are still black two years later.

I have used Kitchler and Unique as my primary product in the past and have even installed some Vista lights. I have looked at Alliance lights and think they have a couple good fixtures but I haven't used them yet. I use Cast as the primary fixtures, transformers, and wire in all of my designs and bring in a few other manufacturers lights because cast is limited in their designs.

Ambiance
06-11-2007, 08:18 AM
We are in the Greater Toronto area, does anyone have any idea how long it takes for Cast fixtures to turn Verdi Green, and does applying WD40 really prevent this?

I realize no-one can say exactly but I would just like to know what to expect.