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View Full Version : Amine or Ester now???


americanlawn
06-10-2007, 06:19 PM
Creeping Charlie, oxalis, violets (tough), clover, knotweed, purslane, clover, spurge, etc.
Been advised by some (here) to use "amine" formulations....problem = "amines" don't touch the above"?? Been using Chaser + LI700 with really nice results, so I'm wondering "What's up"??? Why the amine recommedations ?? Been told that "esters" penetrate the leaf tissue"??

Any results/opinnions out there??

mkroher
06-10-2007, 06:59 PM
I *think* the amines are more volatile than the ester. I assume the reason being for summer apps for less stress on the lawn?

LawnJohn
06-10-2007, 09:00 PM
I *think* the amines are more volatile than the ester. I assume the reason being for summer apps for less stress on the lawn?


Actually, it's the opposite. Follow the amine recommendation. It's too hot for esters. Yes ester works by penetration, but commonly used during cooler weather.

mkroher
06-10-2007, 09:15 PM
Actually, it's the opposite. Follow the amine recommendation. It's too hot for esters. Yes ester works by penetration, but commonly used during cooler weather.

... that's what i just said?

Victor
06-10-2007, 11:47 PM
What he was telling you, is that Ester-based formulations (like Speedzone) are more volatile than Amine-based formulations (like Surge). He said you had it backwards, because you stated that Amine-based formulations were more volatile than Ester-based formulations.

Amine formulations are the only way to go this time of year. I get great results using Surge on all of the weeds you listed Larry. I've even had good luck burning down Violets this time of year. Sure, they come back by the time Fall rolls around. That just means though, that they're rearing their ugly heads at just the right time for me to finish them off for good, with an Ester-based formulation like Speedzone.

The Ranger
06-11-2007, 04:50 PM
Creeping Charlie, oxalis, violets (tough), clover, knotweed, purslane, clover, spurge, etc.
Been advised by some (here) to use "amine" formulations....problem = "amines" don't touch the above"?? Been using Chaser + LI700 with really nice results, so I'm wondering "What's up"??? Why the amine recommedations ?? Been told that "esters" penetrate the leaf tissue"??

Any results/opinnions out there??

Drive on the violets, fall is the best time....amine formulation (lesco 3 way, triplet, trimic 992) and I am sure there are more out there will all work on the other stuff, although oxalis might be a little tuff because of the leaf direction and the runoff.

americanlawn
06-11-2007, 06:46 PM
I'm gunna try side-by-side comparisons this week. LESCO 3-way is less than 1/3rd the cost of Speedzone & Chaser, so maybe we'll save some money too. Target weeds will be purslane, knotweed, spurge, oxalis, and ground ivy (altrhough we've never smoked ground ivy with amines). I still think I'm right by using esters for these hard-to-kill summers weeds (waxy coating), but I trust you guys. Thanks very much, americanlawn

RigglePLC
06-11-2007, 07:22 PM
I am with you on this idea--ester is better for the tough weeds. Strong odor scares customers, though. I add a wetting agent. Probably there is increased risk of vapor drift. One of my customers has grape vines in his yard. I tried to keep spray 3 feet away with Permagreen Ultra in April--still got some injury. (Grape vines are extremely sensitive.)

Can't wait to see results of your side by side comparison, American. I hope you do some double and triple strength Speedzone to see if you get any injury.

LawnJohn
06-12-2007, 09:52 AM
What he was telling you, is that Ester-based formulations (like Speedzone) are more volatile than Amine-based formulations (like Surge). He said you had it backwards, because you stated that Amine-based formulations were more volatile than Ester-based formulations.

Amine formulations are the only way to go this time of year. I get great results using Surge on all of the weeds you listed Larry. I've even had good luck burning down Violets this time of year. Sure, they come back by the time Fall rolls around. That just means though, that they're rearing their ugly heads at just the right time for me to finish them off for good, with an Ester-based formulation like Speedzone.

Thanks Victor!!

I'm at Disney World with the kids so I didn't have much time to go into detail.

Momentum FX2 may be a good solution..It's a tad more than 3-way, but cheaper than Speedzone. Works good for me..


I'd be really careful about using the esters if it's hot..I don't know the weather conditions where you are, but if it's been hot/dry, I would consider half rate and adding chelated iron to counter phytotoxicity.


I hope everything works out.

John..

shaneb
06-12-2007, 04:59 PM
You could also try adding Octane to your 3-way for a better and quicker kill for not much more money than the 3-way alone.

Ric
06-12-2007, 06:22 PM
Yo

Today I got a call about a burnt lawn. I went and looked at it to find it very crisp. Not a whole lot I could do for the guy but I was curious as to how it got that way and ask some question. yes he had run the sprinklers twice a week even if we are under water restrictions. He had no insects so I ask about how much fertilizer he had put down since what little was a live, looked like maybe fungus got it. No he had not fertilized since February. I next ask if he had done any kind of treatment to the lawn. Sure he had sprayed weeds just this past week with stuff from Tractor Supply. There in was obviously the problem and I ask what he used knowing Tractor Supply sells both cool season and warm season products in all their store no matter where they are located. The guy pulled out LV 600 2,4-D ester and it is close to 92 degrees this week. By the way LV 600 in Low Volatile 6 pounds per gallon 2,4-D ester. BTW His Trees looked a little sick also. Any way I tried to tell him he used the wrong stuff and killed his lawn, but he went off on how he was a Hog Farmer for 30 years and knew all about Chemicals. I just shock my head, why would someone with 30 experience not know the difference in ester and amine herbicide??

americanlawn
06-12-2007, 07:13 PM
Sprayed 4 new accounts Monday morning. Two with Mecamine-D and the other 2 with Chaser. All were quite weedy. Big difference. The 2 that were treated with amine (Mecamine-D) are barely showing any change at all. The 2 treated with ester (Chaser) have "frying" weeds.
My DOW rep suggests "Turflon ester" for stubborn weeds. Says easy-to kill weeds are fine for amines, but hard-to-kill weeds = ester formulations. That's all I know, and I realize the volitilization issues with the esters. I have smoked ground ivy with one of the above, and it was not an amine formulation. So now I'm thinking thew DOW guys is right?

Victor
06-12-2007, 11:00 PM
Sprayed 4 new accounts Monday morning. Two with Mecamine-D and the other 2 with Chaser. All were quite weedy. Big difference. The 2 that were treated with amine (Mecamine-D) are barely showing any change at all. The 2 treated with ester (Chaser) have "frying" weeds.
My DOW rep suggests "Turflon ester" for stubborn weeds. Says easy-to kill weeds are fine for amines, but hard-to-kill weeds = ester formulations. That's all I know, and I realize the volitilization issues with the esters. I have smoked ground ivy with one of the above, and it was not an amine formulation. So now I'm thinking thew DOW guys is right?

I'm sold on Surge Buddy. The only weed I have concerns about coming back when I spray it with Surge, is Wild Violet. Any other weed I come across, I spray with Surge and forget about. It works that well for me.

lawncuttinfoo
06-22-2007, 03:13 PM
Anyone know why 3-way is not labeled for spot treatment using portable sprayers?

fx2 is labeled for spot treatment but I need violet control (which fx2 does not have) in addition to the other basics clover, ground ivy, thistle and such. I would rather not put granules (drive) in my piston pump sprayer.

TLS
06-22-2007, 04:00 PM
Just spot spraying? Try Speedzone. Would get a little tricky with the heat, but with just spotting, you should be fine. Frys up the violet and ivy.

heritage
06-22-2007, 05:25 PM
Sprayed 4 new accounts Monday morning. Two with Mecamine-D and the other 2 with Chaser. All were quite weedy. Big difference. The 2 that were treated with amine (Mecamine-D) are barely showing any change at all. The 2 treated with ester (Chaser) have "frying" weeds.
My DOW rep suggests "Turflon ester" for stubborn weeds. Says easy-to kill weeds are fine for amines, but hard-to-kill weeds = ester formulations. That's all I know, and I realize the volitilization issues with the esters. I have smoked ground ivy with one of the above, and it was not an amine formulation. So now I'm thinking thew DOW guys is right?

Well of course Esters will fry weeds, BUT geeese, don't use this stuff until cooler temps! I just think about the trees with injury and "Misapplication" on a report from DEP Pesticide Control Program......2 Really bad things.

Amine Only in warmer temps.

Pete D.

lawncuttinfoo
06-22-2007, 05:33 PM
"do not apply when air temps exceed 90"

does this mean you can apply earlier or later in the same day that it reaches 90 as a high? or does it mean do not apply within a few days of a 90 degree high?

rcreech
06-22-2007, 05:46 PM
I apply in the morning until is hits about 85 deg. Then I quit. Once over 85 the lawn is starting to get stressed. I wouldn't push 90 especially when already stressed with dry weather.

Wild Violet...

I decrease my Three Way to 1.2 oz/1000 and spike it .02/1000 oz of Octane (or Quick Silver). This smoke's Wild Violet.

Victor
06-22-2007, 07:53 PM
"do not apply when air temps exceed 90"

does this mean you can apply earlier or later in the same day that it reaches 90 as a high? or does it mean do not apply within a few days of a 90 degree high?

That's right. As long as you apply in the morning, or evening when the temps aren't above the product's temperature threshold (stated on label), you'll be fine. Just make sure the lawn's not stressed if you're gonna spray.

You could spray like Creech does, to be safe.

RAlmaroad
06-22-2007, 08:29 PM
Guys: I've tried "Vantage" to get control of the dallisgrass in centipede, and it does a little wilt but not anything great. Any suggestions on knocking it out?
Thanks,
Roy

Runner
06-24-2007, 07:39 AM
I just bought some Octane a short time ago, as advised to do a good kill on ground ivy and wild violet. I was disappointed once I got it home and read that it wasn't even labeled for either of these. Will it still do both of these - does anyone know? I know of course, alot of other products will control many other things that aren't labeled. this stuff (Octane) is very fragile, too. It takes VERY little for treatment,..let alone spiking an ap..

rcreech
06-24-2007, 12:03 PM
I was using Quick Silver last year and this year when Octane came out I switched. The kill isn't as fast with Octane but it is 1/2 the price of QS.
You wil still want to use Three Way and spike with Octane. Use a reduce amount of each. Again, without Octane I go full rate of 1.5 oz/1000 of Three Way, but when spiking with Octane I reduce both rates.

green horizons
06-25-2007, 02:50 PM
So far I like Surge when it's hot and dry. Slowly kills weeds without turf injury. When it's cool with ample moisture, there's no beating a quality ester.

americanlawn
06-25-2007, 06:48 PM
green horizons -- I totally agree. Esters smoke weeds...especially when it's hot. I prefer Chaser cuz it has no dicamba in it (safer on turf & trees, but it costs much more), yet it smokes hard to kill weeds. $55 per gallon compared to $18 per gallon of amine, but it's worth it. My two cents worth.

rcreech
06-25-2007, 07:01 PM
Amercan,

Not familiar with Chaser. What is the use rate? Where do you get it? Does it get Wild Violet?

americanlawn
06-25-2007, 07:33 PM
UAP sells it - even though we buy most of our stuff from LESCO, but UAP's Chaser has never let us down. Chaser is normally used at the same rate as 3-ways (1.1 oz per 1000 sq.ft.) Add UAP's LI700 (spreader/sticker/ penetrant/bufferer) for added resuts. Chaser is 2-4D + Triclopyr (ester). Triclopyr is the enemy of violets. Other than Roundup, Chaser is the best thing for combating violets. Mainly cuz it contains triclopyr in an ester formulation.