Is the PGP becoming the generic head ?

[Mdirrigation]

I am sitting here with a K rain , and an orbit head and a PGP , They are all the same , same adjustment key , same adjustments , and they all interchange bodies. Is this the end of the PGP ?

[DanaMac]

I just worked on my first K-rains yesterday that were like that. There have been a few other Ks but not this model. I was kind of thinking the same as you on it. Homeowners already complain when I charge them $20-$28 for a PGP (depending on how many and how nice they are :) ).

[WalkGood]

Is it just my own coincidence of observation, but do those green top Orbit rotaries fail/get stuck more often than a PGP Hunter?

[DanaMac]

Is it just my own coincidence of observation, but do those green top Orbit rotaries fail/get stuck more often than a PGP Hunter?

Yes they do. So something isn't exactly like the PGP. Internal design, quality of materials used to make, design/engineering, something.

[Wet_Boots]

It's kind of hard to imagine that the Orbit rotors aren't actually made by Hunter in their own factory, so outside of the cap, I'm not sure what differences there would be. I bought a few, in order to try their green nozzles in some old Hunter shrub rotors (the original red ones having crumbled in the sunlight), and haven't seen much of a performance difference.

[WalkGood]

Yes they do. So something isn't exactly like the PGP. Internal design, quality of materials used to make, design/engineering, something.

A definition of a cheap knock-off, no?

[Wet_Boots]

By the way, you can thread a Super700 into a Hunter body, not that I can think of a good reason for doing so.

[WalkGood]

Earlier in Spring, I came across an Orbit zonevalve that was letting water thru when "off". This orbit valve looks exactly like an Irritrol gray jar top valve (2400???). Jartop matches, and looks identical. But.... the guts don't fit exactly and the valve leaked more. Actually opening enough to run all the heads.

On closer look the removable ring of the Irritrol is slighly smaller. And the valve seat area of the Irritrol diaphragm is smaller than the internal valvebody seat of the Orbit valve. Wound up replacing the whole valve.

[Mdirrigation]

It's kind of hard to imagine that the Orbit rotors aren't actually made by Hunter in their own factory, so outside of the cap, I'm not sure what differences there would be. I bought a few, in order to try their green nozzles in some old Hunter shrub rotors (the original red ones having crumbled in the sunlight), and haven't seen much of a performance difference.


I looked a bit deeper , the orbit head and the hunter both had the same patent number . I talked with my distributor and he told me that the patent on the pgp has expired . So it does look like that anybody can make that head

[Wet_Boots]

Was the patent expired ten years ago? (or whenever it was that the Orbit rotor first appeared) ~ I still suspect a 'private-label' sort of arrangement, so that Hunter could get some of the home-center sales.

[Mdirrigation]

Probably a label arrangement with orbit , but probably not with K rain , A patent is good for 20 years I think , the PGP has passed that in age . It may be open season

[CAPT Stream Rotar]

I was talking to a fellow irritator in line for coffee the other day...

I asked him what he pays for pgp's..He replies "I USE I-20's"

and said he uses the pgj for a small rotary...

I laughed..

[Rainman7]

I was talking to a fellow irritator in line for coffee the other day...

I asked him what he pays for pgp's..He replies "I USE I-20's"

and said he uses the pgj for a small rotary...

I laughed..

Why? The I-20 or PGJ

[CAPT Stream Rotar]

Yhea....The reason I laughed was because he overloads all his I-20's..the guy claims the warranty is better for the I-20..
I just think that using I-20's spaced far apart isn't the way to go..IMHO a use few more pgp's and manage the water better than just blowing 3 GPM on average Joe home owner's lawn.
I thought it was funny he don't use the 3500...Its by far the best small rotary out there...I suppose the PGJ is garbage in my honest opinion.

[Keith]

I've been using a limited number of the K Rain RPS for about 14 months. So far they have been perfect. They don't make a 360 degree model yet though. They've got a good warranty and really good price compared to what I pay for PGP's. They are also about $2 less than I pay for my ProPlus'.

[PurpHaze]

It may be open season

What's the saying? "Imitation is the best form of flattery." :)

[PurpHaze]

I suppose the PGJ is garbage in my honest opinion.

Having used a lot of Hunter products I'd have to say that the PGJ is a definite step up over the original PGM but it's not perfect... not garbage... but definitely not perfect. It will be interesting to see what happens with the PGJ line once Hunter takes full control of the MP-Rotators in two months. For us... the MPR 2000s/3000s fit perfectly into the PGJ range of operation in most cases.

[PurpHaze]

Probably a label arrangement with orbit...

Something is up between the two companies. Orbit's advertising on their "PGP" is almost word-for-word with Hunter's and the nozzle performance charts are identical. What's the likelihood that two separate companies doing nozzle performance tests on their own and then submitting to outside sources (CIT) for verification come out exactly the same? Maybe Orbit's the "big box" arm of Hunter? :laugh:

My Hunter rep will be in our area next Wednesday and we'll be getting together. If I can remember... I'll ask him about the relationship. Maybe he might come up with some insightful info.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

My Hunter rep will be in our area next Wednesday and we'll be getting together. If I can remember... I'll ask him about the relationship. Maybe he might come up with some insightful info.

He'll give you the blank stare. a short trite answer, then a sad look to not pursue the matter any further.

[bicmudpuppy]

We did this w/ Toro and to a lesser extent RB way back when they first went after the Home Owner $$$$. Same molds, same assembly lines, but much cheaper. Less and inferior plastic and seals. The Orbit rotor is a two year failure waiting to happen with a pretty 7 year warranty no one is going to pursue.

[irritation]

I bought a case when I ran short and was too far away from a supplier about 4 years ago. They seem to be identical to the PGP and not one has failed.

[PurpHaze]

He'll give you the blank stare. a short trite answer, then a sad look to not pursue the matter any further.

Sam won't BS me. He may not have the answer... but he won't BS me. :)

[sprinklerguy1]

Okay, here's the straight story that they (Hunter) don't want you to know about.

The PGP and the Orbit Voyager (PGP with green Orbit top) are made on the same automated machine at Hunter's factory in Cary, North Carolina. The only difference is the rubber top, the body cap and the color of the nozzles. The internal parts are identical. Hunter makes these under contract for the Orbit Company who sells them into home centers and such. This lets Hunter get the sales without sullying their brand name in the big box stores. It's no coincidence that the text on the Orbit package matches Hunters!

The K-Rain product is an identical copy of the PGP... down to every last detail. K-Rain decided that making an identical product would help them win sales from PGP loyalists.

The Hunter patents expired and K-Rain already has their patent that they already license to Hunter on the reversing mechanism. The Hunter salespeople are very worried about the K-Rain head called the RPS-75 because they say it works as well as a PGP in Hunter's tests and it costs about $2.00 less to the contractor. If you have not seen the RPS-75 in your area, it is because K-Rain can't make them fast enough to keep up with demand. I've used them and they work. And I'm saving a bundle this season!

K-Rain is also making their version of the PGP available to Irritrol. I'm not sure what its called, but if you ask for an Irritrol rotor, it's a K-Rain PGP!

[Keith]

The Irritrol you are talking about is a 450R. And they still have the CR500 that are like the ProPlus.

[Dirty Water]

Okay, here's the straight story that they (Hunter) don't want you to know about.

The PGP and the Orbit Voyager (PGP with green Orbit top) are made on the same automated machine at Hunter's factory in Cary, North Carolina. The only difference is the rubber top, the body cap and the color of the nozzles. The internal parts are identical. Hunter makes these under contract for the Orbit Company who sells them into home centers and such. This lets Hunter get the sales without sullying their brand name in the big box stores. It's no coincidence that the text on the Orbit package matches Hunters!

The K-Rain product is an identical copy of the PGP... down to every last detail. K-Rain decided that making an identical product would help them win sales from PGP loyalists.

The Hunter patents expired and K-Rain already has their patent that they already license to Hunter on the reversing mechanism. The Hunter salespeople are very worried about the K-Rain head called the RPS-75 because they say it works as well as a PGP in Hunter's tests and it costs about $2.00 less to the contractor. If you have not seen the RPS-75 in your area, it is because K-Rain can't make them fast enough to keep up with demand. I've used them and they work. And I'm saving a bundle this season!

K-Rain is also making their version of the PGP available to Irritrol. I'm not sure what its called, but if you ask for an Irritrol rotor, it's a K-Rain PGP!

How much did K-rain pay you, and can I have some for listening to this?

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

How much did K-rain pay you, and can I have some for listening to this?

It does seem all so watergatish.:rolleyes: The price reductions are making me a tad nervous. Is quality dropping as well? I wonder if this is an attempt to undercut the RB rotaries and MP rotators?:confused:

[bicmudpuppy]

You can run a product through the exact same molds and finish machines, but if the materials used are not to the exact same standards, then the end product is CHEAP. The HO versions of the 570 and the 1800 have proved this. OK, somebody got 2,3 or even 5 cases of orbits that haven't gone belly up in 18 months. I have replaced a LOT of orbit "pgp" type heads for every failure you can think of. Non turning, leaky wiper, etc. No way are the two heads made to the same specs and tolerances. Now, the K-Rain copy may be as good or better. I haven't seen or used one. The Irritrol CR500 is a quality product in my book.

[Wet_Boots]

Would Hunter have anything to gain by setting up a second supply chain of cheaper materials? I don't think the boss would have even wanted any crappy raw material in his factory.

[Keith]

I agree with you on the Orbit. Either they are not up to the same specs and tolerances as the PGP, or we (and I guess several others here) have run into every bad one ever made. I have no reason to badmouth the product just for the sake of doing so, I just run across an inordinate number of failed Orbit rotors.

[PurpHaze]

Would Hunter have anything to gain by setting up a second supply chain of cheaper materials? I don't think the boss would have even wanted any crappy raw material in his factory.

Can't say for their satellite factories but the San Marcos injection molders are fed from barrels of polymer beads via a vacuum tube system. They said that they inspect and test the beads to make sure they meet quality standards before heading for the molds. Then a test run is made through the injection molders to make sure everything is correct before running a full batch. Course, I only saw the standard Hunter sprinkler models being made in this particular factory. :)

[sprinklerguy1]

My above post has "just the facts" man. No money from anyone. Not even a free hat!

Hunter doesn't want the industry to know they make the Orbit. And they don't want you to know that K-Rain has the same thing as the PGP.

This ain't a Chevy vs. Ford, argument. Knowing what's really going on makes you a better negotiator!

As for MP rotator, great product. And the Rain Bird 5004... that's another bargain. Got nothin against 'em

By the way, you'll only see the Orbit Voyager being made by Hunter at their NORTH CAROLINA plant. They make them all there. The Orbit Saturn III (Hunter PGM internal) is made at their TIJUANA MEXICO plant. When they take you on the tour of San Marcos, you won't see either.

[greenmonster304]

I was told by the guy at the supply house that the k rain are "exactly the same" as the hunters but i found that the k rain heads have problems with the adjustments. for example a few of the heads would increase their degree range to both the right and left at the same time so you couldn't set it to the right and adjust left, as i turned the key it just moved further to the right.
I hope all that makes sense.

[Dirty Water]

My above post has "just the facts" man. No money from anyone. Not even a free hat!

Hunter doesn't want the industry to know they make the Orbit. And they don't want you to know that K-Rain has the same thing as the PGP.

This ain't a Chevy vs. Ford, argument. Knowing what's really going on makes you a better negotiator!

As for MP rotator, great product. And the Rain Bird 5004... that's another bargain. Got nothin against 'em

By the way, you'll only see the Orbit Voyager being made by Hunter at their NORTH CAROLINA plant. They make them all there. The Orbit Saturn III (Hunter PGM internal) is made at their TIJUANA MEXICO plant. When they take you on the tour of San Marcos, you won't see either.

Well its just funny, because everytime this discussion comes up, some nameless person shows up, and claims this, and then doesn't post anything ever again.

I really would like some facts to back it up, besides your opinion.

I've changed out 10 Orbits to every PGP I've changed, and there are far more PGP's in the ground.

So, it just seem like they could not be coming from the same place.

[PurpHaze]

So, it just seem like they could not be coming from the same place.

If Hunter is making them for Orbit then maybe there is a built-in inferiority in order to protect the Hunter name? :laugh:

[irrig8r]

I came across a job on Tuesday where there is a lawn where the gardener has been making a mess of the sprinklers. I don't know which were originals, the K-Rain K-2s or the Maxipaws... on a lawn that is roughly 56 x 63 there are rotors and impact heads spaced around the perimeter anywhere from 13 to 22 feet apart then two plunked down in the middle 16 feet from each other...

"What the hell were they thinking" was the first thought that came to mind. Researching the K-2 I find it only has one nozzle available, at 2.5 GPM.

I have 60 PSI static (I just install a PRV to get it down from about 110) and an available 9 GPM @ 30 PSI dynamic according to my Toro gauge.

Anyway, in going to the Hunter website to compare nozzles I ran across the new blue nozzles. Is anyone using them? What do you think?

I'm thinking two rotors with the blue # 4 nozzles spaced correctly and on their own valve should allow me to get the middle covered. I'll be eliminating some and moving other heads around the perimeter to get my spacing more even...

It's more or less a rectangle, but with a couple of curves and cutouts for annual color. 4 existing valves and I'll be splitting and moving heads to make 5....


Anyway, just wondered about the blue nozzles since I haven't installed a PGP in a while.

[irritation]

The blue nozzles are numbered for GPM. So a #4 is now 4 GPM and the red #4 is around 2 GPM.

[SprinklerGuy]

I stick with the reds.....the blues are ok.....but I'm an old dog...I tried the blues...went back to reds.....

[irritation]

I'm thinking the blues are better, I like the diffusion better when you crank them down, but time will only tell.

[SprinklerGuy]

I try not to have to crank them down ;)

[irritation]

I try not to have to crank them down ;)

I work on quite a few systems that aren't designed perfectly and cranking them down is common.

[Rainman7]

The PGP and K-Rain RPS are not identical. The K-Rain has an adjustable-ratcheting right stop which is a pretty cool feature.

[SprinklerGuy]

I agree with the blue nozzles being useful during repairs/renos of less than perfect systems....I will use them this way also....just like the Rainbird U Nozzle...