Can you make more $$$ with 21" than with a Z

[casey]

We cut over 150 small res props primarily with 21" LB's and 36 hydros for some of the larger areas. Because we don't discriminate against customers with small gates we are able to line up multiple houses on a street.
One crew with a Z cuts a prop on 1 of our streets where we cut 9 props. The owner came to me today & hired us because he thinks he is being overcharged.
Z crew was charging $35, I quoted $25. I am able to do this because we are doing multiples on that street. We now do (2 man crew) 10 props at $25 with 21's for backyards & the 36 where possible in 2 hrs. The Z crew has to charge more because they are doing a single prop & are unwilling to use a 21 through the gates. I am not lowballing but charging a fair price based on multiple props, not a single unit.
This kind of overcharging by LCO's using Z's in a smaller residential market is the fault of the LCO's using equipment not suited to our market.
If you are properly equipped there is as much or more $$$ to be made using 21's.

[LoneStarLawn]

In your situation yes you maybe right, but that doesn't mean that a 21" makes more money than a Z rider overall..

[TLS]

Casey,

I have a little problem with your pricing ideas.

You knew that this particular lawn was going for $35 by the Z company, and you give him a price of $25???? I could sure use that $10, e-mail me for my address! Because you sure don't want it with that type of pricing attitude! You should actually be charging more due to your increased labor of smaller decks vs. their cheaper labor due to Z's. You should market it that way! Yes in your particular area with small postage stamp lawns, a 21" may be more effective, but Z's are meant for 1/4 acre and up lawns.

So you are right that he should be using a 21", but you are wrong for undercutting him!

[casey]

Didn't undercut him. Gave the customer a fair price based on having multiple props. I timed it a few weeks ago. The Z crew took 17 min. from the time of pulling up to customers house. We did it in 14 min ( yes I calculate minutes on these props) with the 36 and a 21. My crew then did 9 others in under 2 hrs..
I'm wondering what a Z would yield on a 2 hr. large commercial job per cut.

[dmk395]

It sounds like you have found a profitable niche in the marketplace.

[TLS]

Looks like you are grossing approx. $60/man hour. Thats if your "Crew" is 2 men. $250/4 man hours.If its more men than that, then adjust accordingly. I regularly make $60/hr with my Lazer and me....no crew. Uno. Yes bigger properties though.

My only concern is for that $10 that you just passed up! That would have put you up to $65/man hour, or more, depending on how often you practice this trick. If I know/find out the current price that they are being charged, I will go higher, because some LCO's are just grossly undercharging as a whole, and making this industry harder to profit nicely.

[NC Big Daddy]

No. Maybe with the 36" walkbehind (maybe)
Good luck

[AltaLawnCare]

I wish I had some postage stamps!!

Another thing is (especially residentials) there are many, many more small yards which can be cut for 25.00 or less and make good money than bigger ones. if someone on that route had a larger property, they might would either buy their own mower, before paying 60.00 or more for a cut. Just depends on the area, and neighborhood.

And I don't think Casey gave away 10.00 - if he had only matched the price of the other LCO, he would have lost $25.00 and 25.00 x number of cuts on that property from now on, because the people probably wouldn't have changed.

[cantoo]

Now tell them the real bad news casey,, that $25 is Can$'s which equals US $16.03 per cut.

US $60.00 = Can$ 90.36
US $38.46 = Can$ 60.00
Wish we could get the US prices here.

[LJ lawn]

what's the point of posting this topic?if you are making enough $$ up there doing it with the 21in machines---then great!you know most ops on this site use some sort of bigger walk behind or z machine.i personally don't even want to ever look at a 21" mower let alone actually use one.matter of fact if we all get together and take up a collection i'd bet you can collect at least 50 or so free 21" mowers from the members on this site.

[Currier]

And I don't think Casey gave away 10.00 - if he had only matched the price of the other LCO, he would have lost $25.00 and 25.00 x number of cuts on that property from now on, because the people probably wouldn't have changed.

Well heck, that kind of thought means I should get every bid from now on. I simply undercharge to the point that I completely devalue my market!...but I don't miss out on the litte $$ I am charging.

[a1 lawncare]

no

[MATTHEW]

You also have to remember that neighbors talk.

[bubble boy]

each business and each market is different. we all know what we want to make at the end of the day, whether its with a 21" or a z. and we all know what our market will bear. caseys numbers seem to be reasonable for my area of the city, if i recall he is from the west end of toronto.

personally, i don't mind using a 21" but there is something to be said for having a z and being able to take on larger props, as long as you make your desired profit. versatility is often one of our advantages over fly by night operations, and a z gives you versitility. but it doesn't necessarily give you more profit.

[casey]

Overcharging vs. Lowballing.

Charging less & accepting accounts with smaller gates gets us the multiple contracts per street.
If I land an account on a street it is almost a given that 2 years down the road we will be doing at minimum 5 props on that street. Factor in applications & other extras.
Believe it or not I think there is more money to be made in our market by charging less.
Why should the LCO's with the Z's who refuse gated props set the market value in our area??

[little green guy]

just a thought but, what if someone else has the same idea that you can make more by charging less so they charge less than you. Then you have too lower your prices and before long you'll be paying people to cut thier lawn. Dosn't make to much sence to me, sorry :(

[Richard Martin]

casey wrote:
...........................
Why should the LCO's with the Z's who refuse gated props set the market value in our area??
...........................

Flip the question around. Why should a guy with a 21 drive the market down? Apparently the lawn was worth $35.00 to begin with or else the homeowner would never have agreed to that price.

In my opinion you are lowballing.

[cleancutdude]

It much easyer to to get work for small mowers than big mowers.
there will always be more small home lawns than large .
I think personly than it is much harder to get money out of the rich .

[gusbuster]

Casey,
Not a personal attack, but to take a job $10 less. It will come back to bite you in the butt. I think in your sitution, shouldn't not taken those jobs for no less than $30. Why, what happens when your labor rates go up? What happens if your insurance goes up?? What if you get hurt??

You should always get maxium value for your services. As you're stating, loosing over $160 per year per client, assuming you only work 32 weeks @ $30 per cut,more if you have a longer work year.

All the lco's in my area work with 21" for the residentials. For a long time, it was tough to get what I wanted. When the rents spiked a few years ago, I lost a lot of compitition because they couldn't make it in this area. Why did I survive? I was already charging what I needed. Didn't need to raise my price so much. Some of the guys were raising their clients by as much as $20 more.

:blob3:

[Finecut]

How can you be making more charging less? You mow 150 lawns...let's say for the sake of argument you charge $10.00 less per lawn times 150 lawns. You mow those lawns 27 to 30 times per year...your losing big money and hurting others trying to make a living. Can you say lowballer?

[KirbysLawn]

As for the question: NO

[65hoss]

You CAN'T make more $$$ with a 21" than a Z!!!

Last year I had around 15 postage lawns on 1 street. We worked harder for the money due to most people with small lawns try to put as many obsticles as possible in their lawn like they have a big lot. But the $$$ I made off them in 1 hour verses what I did with the Lazer in 1 hours wasn't even close. I could easily make $20 to $35 more an hour. This also was able to lower labor cost. I only kept a few of these lawns this year. It just wasn't worth my time to do all them. They were easily replaced with 1/4+ lawns. I will NOT even carry the 21" anymore. In a business were lowballers keep prices down, I don't have time to deal with a slow 21".

[kutnkru]

Several valid points have been made in regards to your topic.

FIRST:
If the property was being cut with a more productive mower than yours, you should not be doing it for less money with more labor - this makes no sense.

SECOND:
If you have many clients in an area this is GREAT! However, your price should be your price regardless of whether you have a single or multiple properties to maintain on any given street, neigborhood etc.

The only time that I can see this differentiateing would be if you are doing HOAs.

THIRD:
If you would typically charge $30 for using your deck mowers but have given a "Group Discount", I would be charging them $40 to cut it with something smaller.

IMHO:
I think that you need to sit back, evaluate and go over how long it takes you to render your services. Once you have compiled a figure for what you are charging per minute you can then compose a chart as to how long the different sf properties take in your area with a smaller deck.

This way you are not losing money, and certainly not driving down the fair market value for fellow LCOs.

Just my nickle.
Kris

[bobbygedd]

i used to use nothing but 21". did u ever factor in "wear and tear" on your body? thats got to be worth something? any hew, was thinkin about this same thing today, if i pick up a neighbor or two on the same block, thats supposed to be to my benefit, this is how we build and make more money(save on traveling time, loading, unloading, gas, etc) seems counterproductive to do more at a cheaper price. just my thoughts

[bubble boy]

finecut-it is possible to make more by charging less. 150 customers @ $100/month is $15 000.

lets say casey instead charges $125 a month. he would not have 150 customers, due to his higher price(people are cheap.) thus he has say 110 customers. $125 @ 110 customers is $13 750.

of course this is a skewed way to look at it, he would of course save time due to less cuts per week, etc. and of course in theory if everyone acts the same profits get driven down to zero. there is a point to how low (or high) we can all go with price, no matter how good our work is or how fast we are.

casey, your theory is also weak in the "real world" because you do smaller props.(not taking a shot here, 90% of my lawns are postage stamps) your compitition is every 15 year old with a mower. thus price on these small lawns gets driven down due to insane amounts of competition. you will find beating someones price by $10 wont cut it at some point.

if you have a z your competition is much smaller. not many will cut a 3 acre place with a 21", whether it is the 15 year old or the homeowner themself.

i really need a z:(

[casey]

Kutnkru

FIRST: The property was not being cut by a more productive mower. As I said it took them 17 min & us 14 with a 36 & 21. (that includes their unload & load time)

SECOND:I have multiple customers on every street because of the price & because we do gated yards. Since there is no drive, unload, load time, I will pass benefit to customer & try to increase volume on that street.

THIRD: What would you quote for a 2 hr cut with a Z?
Using 21 & 36-10 props at $25 just under 2 hrs. 2 man crew at $17 per man per hour.

[65hoss]

I cut a 2 acre church in 40 min. with my Lazer.

1/2 to 1 acre residential lots= 20-30 min.


My average $40 yard takes 20 min. to complete. Thats gate down to gate up.

[CSRA Landscaping]

I think that this is one of those situations that, so long as we're all happy and making some amount of money, who cares?

As to not being able to make money by driving the prices down, all I have to say is look at what Wal-Mart did to Roses and K-Mart, etc. A lot of stores aren't even around any more because of wally world. Home Depot and Lowes do the same thing to local hardware stores. They do business based on .... VOLUME!

So there is some merit to the thought, even though it is not original. (Sorry, Casey Jones.) :D And, yes, it does focus on eliminating the competition.

[cleancutdude]

I'd just like to add that there are some lawns i can do quicker with an 18" etesia than John Deere jx 85 21"
But I still make sure I get min £15 ($25us) per job no mater the size or the time
http://www.etesia.com/accueil_uk.html

[bubble boy]

again with the 18":D

[LJ lawn]

can someone please explain the main reason for posting this topic? was it to pick an argument or to boast about the productivity of working with a small mower? i seem to rember this was posted before about 6 months ago or something and got a similar response from the members here.

[CSRA Landscaping]

I think it was a redemptive attempt to explain his point of view. He really hasn't been confrontational at all in this thread, which is commendable. I'd say that he's explained himself quite well this time.

[TLS]

Originally posted by casey
Kutnkru

SECOND:I have multiple customers on every street because of the price & because we do gated yards. Since there is no drive, unload, load time, I will pass benefit to customer & try to increase volume on that street.


Pass the benefit to the customer???? Who's side are you on??? Any multi-lawns are for MY benefit only. This may come back to bite you when every other one moves away or dies....makes it harder. You MUST price each lawn according to EACH lawn, not how EASY it is to mow-right-along.

Just say NO to LOWBALLING!!!

[casey]

TLS,
When you mow acres with a Z you "mow right along". My price per sq. ft is much higher than the price per sq. ft. you would bid on a large prop. Funny how "lowballing" can be so profitable. Why should I base the value of these props on LCO prices who refuse gated yards & charge per unit? I'm sure they can find props where we could not possibly compete with our equipment or business plan.

[kutnkru]

I understand you point casey about having multiple lawns in an area because of your discounts.

I just prefer to give them a free cutting in May or October when we cut them 5 times, or give them a free yard of Mulch for introducing us to a new client. Both of these alternatives are much cheaper for us to absorb the cost of than to let $150 or more go by the wayside per client because of volume.

I also agree with TJM. We LOVE to have a street full of clients, however if you ask MRS JONEs how much her lawn is it may be more or less than MRS SMITHS because we price according to sf. I dont want to be like McDonalds and offer 49 cent cuttings because its Thursday. I would rather keep the market prices high and charge yet even more for them have peace of mind.

As far as comparing acreage mowing to residential mowing you are comparing apples to oranges. They factor differently when we bid them.

Kris

[FinecutLC]

Quote by Casey 2 man crew at $17 per man per hour.


I guess the question is more money than what? $17.00 per man hour?

[Indiana]

Finecut said exactly what I was thinking. If your low on a lawn and compund the problem with more. How does this equal more profits?

Quantity balances out?

My minimum is $32.50. Don't matter what. If I have 10 in row or one. If you do ten in a row you do better, if you do one then move You make overhead.

$25.00 is ridiculous. Two crews? Does everybody on the crew get $5 bucks? Are they happy with that?

What happens when it's time to give somebody a raise? Gas goes to $2.00 per gallon, insurance goes up, or you need to get insurance.

I think pricing this way is short-sighted. Your buying yourself a job not making "REAL" profit. My .02

[KerryB]

hi guys,
Help, because I'm lost after this one. Don't get me wrong, I have learned alot from everyone here at Lawnsite in such a short time. I have heard everyone give advice about estimating by first figuring out what your costs are. Makes sense. But if his costs are lower than the other guy's and he can do the job cheaper and still make a profit, isnt that what everyone here has been saying? Ok wait a sec, I still see what you are saying about undercutting the other guy. No one wants that to happen to them, so how do we know what the other guy is charging?
I just bid for a property comm. I cut it just to see how long it would take me, took 45 min to cut, edge, blow. I bid $150.00 per month. I talked to someone yesterday that cut that prop several years ago he was getting $220.00 per month. S#%t. Left money on the table. Now how do we not do this. HELP

[powerreel]

OH yea! $$$$$ I sold my 36 and what small lawns I do, (some are only 15' *10 ) and I get $40-$50 hr. but I do plants mostly and super killer turf- but small. I could never use a "Z" and would enjoy the show of someone who was willing to try!!!! Please bring "Z's" to Seattle, I haer they handle great on steep wet hills!!! :cool:

[casey]

Indiana,
I want to make this real clear cause I'm curious as to what a Z can yield in 1 hr. & you & Finecut seem to have misinterpreted my figures.

10 lawns at $25
2 hrs
2 employee crew paid $17 per hour each doing entire job (I'm not involved)
=$250 less $34 labour
=$216 for 2 hrs.
=$113 for that particular crew for 1 hr.

By keeping prices low we increase volume & increase profit by eliminating drive, unload & load time. Many of our customers also purchase our application program. I don't bid a small res. as a single unit but as potential for volume business. I don't feel I am lowballing as my profit margin, as far as I can tell, is greater than an LCO who quotes more on these properties.

[LoneStarLawn]

Originally posted by cantoo
Now tell them the real bad news casey,, that $25 is Can$'s which equals US $16.03 per cut.

US $60.00 = Can$ 90.36
US $38.46 = Can$ 60.00
Wish we could get the US prices here.

As said before ..are you talking CAN$ or US$?

[casey]

In US $$

10 lawns at $16.03
2 hrs.
2 employee crew paid $10.80 per hr each for doing entire job
=$160.30 less $21.60 labour
=$139.70 for 2 hrs.
=$70.35 per hr. for that crew.

Sorry should have posted in US $$$

How does that crew total compare?
Remember that's just for cuts no apps. or other extras.

[Mike Paulsen]

casey, do you mean 4 man hours to do 10 yards or 2 man hours? How big ( sq. ft. ) are though yards?If it is 4 man hours , doesn't it make that an 43.20 expense?

[LoneStarLawn]

Originally posted by casey
In US $$

10 lawns at $16.03
2 hrs.
2 employee crew paid $10.80 per hr each for doing entire job
=$160.30 less $21.60 labour
=$139.70 for 2 hrs.
=$70.35 per hr. for that crew.

Sorry should have posted in US $$$

How does that crew total compare?
Remember that's just for cuts no apps. or other extras.

As said by Mike should be ...
=$160.30 less $43.20
=$117.10 for 2 hrs.
=$58.55 per hr. for that crew after labor costs

[Mike Paulsen]

as I see it you are run about 40 dollar a man hour. That's good but nothing to wright home about.

[casey]

LoneStar,
Your post is correct.
$58.55 for that crew per hr cutting.
What's an average to shoot for?
With apps, pruning, or hedging.
That crew brings in app. $400 to $550 daily after wages.

Canadian hrs.,& US $$$

[Finecut]

Casey,

Are those Can hours or US hours?

[LoneStarLawn]

Originally posted by casey
LoneStar,
Your post is correct.
$58.55 for that crew per hr cutting.
What's an average to shoot for?
With apps, pruning, or hedging.
That crew brings in app. $400 to $550 daily.

You can bring in alot more with a Z rider that is for sure.

[grassman50]

I just think its funny reading about casey mowing with 21" mower. Bet he feels like a high schooler out there workin. I understand that your lawns are small, but still get a couple of 36 inch hydros, that will double your time yet.

[TGCummings]

GrassMan,

Not necessarily. I own a 36" Hydro but, because of the size of lawns and gates in my area, I run my 21" more. I definitely do not feel like a high schooler, but a professional that knows the right equipment for the job...

[SprinklerGuy]

Hi, been watching this thread with interest, don't mow lawns but I do understand profit/loss.
Casey has found a niche and he is SMART for his business. I know he has figured out his costs and is making the profit he wants.
I don't think he wanted to fight or argue, he was probably just curious to know how the 21's stood up to your guys' Z's. I personally feel that there are many more yards that would be willing to pay 25 than there are that want to pay more than that.
That opens up a HUGE market for guys like Casey. Someone's got to do it.
I fix sprinklers, if I could perform 4 service calls on the same street every day, I would GLADLY REDUCE MY service call from 55 to 45. Drive time, wear and tear, etc. would be greatly reduced and I would be RICH, if I could do that daily.
K.I.S.S. you guys know what that means, hell of a lot less problems with a 21 then the hydros right????? sounds like less overhead
Good job Casey

[grassman50]

Why is this article even brought up, along with alot others? Who cares about what you use or what you have, if it works for you then fine, then grass cutting people are just going to put down each other cause they think there better but thier not. I havent been here long but i think this site needs some help in that concern. Some time i think all these people do is put down each other and see who can get the best insult. Im going to leave this site and go do some work!! Have fun!:cool:

[HOMER]

Well duh!!!!!!!!!

We have a good time insulting each other.

Go to work, we'll keep having fun!

[casey]

Originally posted by grassman50
Why is this article even brought up, along with alot others? Who cares about what you use or what you have, if it works for you then fine,

Alot of things were working for me fine before finding LS. Using some of the input here has helped increase productivity & kept me from making some bad equipment purchases. Keep up the insults, put-downs & one upmanship, because in some of the crap there is practical advice.
I will, however, never own a Z.

BTW I did not bring this thread back from the dead.

[65hoss]

Originally posted by HOMER

Go to work, we'll keep having fun!

I agree, until the Z it was work. Now its fun. Office on wheels.

[Richard Martin]

sprinklerguy wrote:
..............................
hell of a lot less problems with a 21 then the hydros right?
..............................

According to what I've read here at Lawnsite hydro problems don't seem to be a problem unless you have a Scag and then only on the ZTRs.

If you're talking about the larger machines in general having more problems then 21s then I would have to disagree.

Regardless of the size of the machine if you maintain them properly and keep an eye out for the obvious then you should get a minimum of 1500 hours of trouble free service out of even the worst built commercial mower.

Bear in mind that mower manufacturerers, just like car makers, occasionally turn out a lemon. It's going to happen and there's nothing that the manufacturer can do about it.

[TGCummings]

Maybe not more trouble with my hydro, per se, but whole heck of a lot more maintenance! Changing the oil is a pain in the butt compared to my 21s. Heck, changing the blades and cleaning the deck is 2-3 times more time-consuming...

Don't get me wrong, I love my 36" Exmark. Love to use it, clean it, etc., but it's a heck of a lot more trouble than my 21s, especially considering that it doesn't get as much use as my smaller machines in my area! ;)

My whole point isn't to knock one over the other, though, just to point out to those with GrassMan50's attitude that each have their uses. There are commercial mowers of every size and strength, and we all need to use the ones that best fit our market...

That's the professional's way. ;)

[65hoss]

Hydro maintenance is hard. Just changed the fluid in my Lazer 2 days ago.

Take oil filter off. Let fluid run out for 15 min. Put new filter on. Put new Mobil 1 15w 50 motor oil in tank. 1 quart. Next time its done is around 500 hours.

[TGCummings]

Changing the hydraulic oil is easy.

Getting to the motor oil drain (compared to my 21s) is a pain in the butt!

[65hoss]

No it isn't. There is a hole in the frame. A valve opens and the motor oil runs out thru the hole and into the pan. Change filter. Refill.

I do have an encore that you need a long rubber hose to go to the pan. Thats it.

[TGCummings]

Hey Hoss,

Why take this so personally, man? I'm not knocking your situation, just letting you know about mine.

You don't really think you know my situation better than I do ...

Do you? ;)

[Richard Martin]

Heck, I added a screw-in valve and a hose to the oil drain on my 14 Kaw. You put the hose in a drain pan and turn the valve. Changing oil doesn't get any easier.

[65hoss]

Originally posted by TGCummings
Hey Hoss,

Why take this so personally, man? I'm not knocking your situation, just letting you know about mine.

You don't really think you know my situation better than I do ...

Do you? ;)

Take it personally? What the heck are you talking about? I'm talking about changing fluid and oil and you act as though your being attacked. I could care less about any situation. I'm talking about maintenance issues on a hydro. Nothing to do with your work situation! Your making statements about how hard maintenance is, and we are telling you from experience that it isn't! Period. Nothing to attack you over.

[casey]

Originally posted by TGCummings

Getting to the motor oil drain (compared to my 21s) is a pain in the butt!

If you have the twin 15 Kaw on that 36 Exmark TTHP there is a drain plug on both sides. One works with the frame hole, one doesn't.
Maintenance hasn't been a huge issue with the hydros, it's those pesky gates.
The new 32 Viking should speed things up.

[grassman50]

yeah, i agree with hoss, TGcummings, you need to stop bickering about dumb stuff, everybodys equipment is different. Not everyone mows lawns with 21 inch pushers.. the same brand as yours.

[bobbygedd]

man this thread has been around for a long time. actually, after some serious thought, im considering offering some unique type services, that most others dont offer. one of them may be cutting with a 21", but at a higher price

[TGCummings]

...sigh...

[TGCummings]

Hoss,

You could be right, then. I've been doing maintenance on both machines for about a year and a half and, so far, it's far easier to maintenance my 21s than my 36, in every aspect. Perhaps, in time, that will change.

However, I do still get more use out of my 21s out here than my 36 so, yes, my 21s make me more money. ;)

[osc]

Based on this thread and the thread about dull blades, I am affraid you are lost in the wilderness.

[kutnkru]

Originally posted by bobbygedd
man this thread has been around for a long time. actually, after some serious thought, im considering offering some unique type services, that most others dont offer. one of them may be cutting with a 21", but at a higher price I do this for those that are adamant that none shall use a tractor or heavy machinery on their lawns.

I originally figured an average of $5-7/m.sf. would be suffiecient. I have upped the ante to $7-9/m.sf. If you would normally get $30-35 for a 10m/sf property, plan on sending out invoices for $70-90 for cutting them with a 21 inch unit.

You will want to charge more for this service not just because you will be spending quite a bit more time to complete the site correctly, but now it will fall into the category of special requests and everyone knows that we are more than happy to perform just such a service unfortunately we have to charge for the extra time it takes to complete. ;)

Kris

[TGCummings]

Kris,

I'm on the same page with you on the special requests. I always get more money for that.

However, since most of my lawns (and most lawns in my area!) fall under the category of under 3000 square feet and/or have 30" or tinier gate openings, I actually cut them faster with a 21" than with my 36"!

Again, it depends entirely on your market... ;)

[keifer]

I think its fair, that is what he charges for lawns next door.Hey, its just business.

[kutnkru]

Thom I realize that for someone in your demographical area this might be a hard sell -LOL!!!

There may be an opening for you to offer something like his in the commercial markets however. I remember alot of malls and such that were primarily comprised of medians for cutting and very few wide open areas. I know they exist and may be more prevelant but this might be the only area for you to expand with the special requests.

The reason why we can offer this as an additional service is because most of our front yards are 4m/sf plus the sides and back. Therefore we are offering a specialty to meet our clients needs by not cutting vast areas with the larger mowing equipment. Thus a modest increase in price to compensate for our efforts.

Kris

[1MajorTom]

Kris,
Sorry, but I have hard time following you.

First you said: If you would normally get $30-35 for a 10m/sf property, plan on sending out invoices for $70-90 for cutting them with a 21 inch unit.


Then further down you stated: Thus a modest increase in price to compensate for our efforts

Modest in the dictionary means reasonable, not excessive or extreme.

Those prices to me do not seem like a modest increase in price. From $30.00 to $90.00 is triple the cost.
Is modest the word you meant to use?

[GroundKprs]

Why does everyone ridicule the 21" so much? Nothing cutting ornamental turf beats the cut of an old staggered wheel 21" Lawnboy for a finished look - except maybe Powerreel's reel mowers. Wide area finish mowers, as used on estates and other very upscale large turf areas, are just a phalanx of 21" decks, belt driven from the pulling tractor. Especially when you get onto smaller urban properties, the single 21" wb can be a good moneymaker.

Now let this thread die soon, before you get Jim Lewis riled up. LOL

PS: Jodi, I do get $97.25 for a 16K site done with a 21". Most Z operators would take 30-35 min there, and I guess charge $40-$45. To a few, the appearance of a 21" cut, even on a larger site, is worth more than double the going rate of production machines.

[1MajorTom]

I'm not doubting that people will indeed pay more to have their large lawn cut with a 21"; I just don't think it is a "modest" increase for a weekly cutting. More like a luxury in my book.

We of all people know there is money to be made using a 21". We can line up 4 or 5 properties in a row 3 to 4,000 sq ft, and go to town. Small yards have their place in the green industry too. The key to making money on the small props is to line them up in a row. They are just as profitable as a large Z'd lawn, with a lot less overhead. ;)

We use a mix of different size equipment. Sometimes 21's, but we use larger walkbehinds also. It's just common sense. Price the lawns accordingly and use the equipment that is best suited for the lawn.

[grassyfras]

i use to cut 12 lawns with a 21". Then i got a 36" i reduced my time by half maybe more. ITs better on leaves and everthing all around. The only down side is when it breaks but that is very rarly. My 21"s broke more and probbly even cost more to fix so far then my 36". I would never offer to cut a lawn with a 21" just to make a few bucks more.

[casey]

It really is very simple:
Many props in our area have a gate that is smaller than 36".
A gear 32" is slower in small tightly landscaped areas than a 21". We cut everything we can with 36 hydros & most backyards, ditches, islands etc. with 21's. I see LCO's trying to compete with Z's. They charge too much because they can't line up multiples due to their refusal to use a 21" through the gates. The LCO's who use a Walker fare slightly better but still fail the gate test.
They are limiting themselves to serve only 20% of the market while we can service 100%. Our pricing structure reflects this fact.

[TGCummings]

Excellent posts, all!

This really hearkens back to the original question, Can you make more $$$ with a 21" than with a Z? and the answer is Yes, I can!

The truth is, as Jodi so succintly put it, you can make just as much with either, but it depends on your market!

Like Casey, I deal with a lot of 30" gates in my town as well as dealing with the fact that most lawns out here are less (mostly far less!) than 4000 square.

The best thing to do is know your market. Are you measuring your lawns in acreage, or in 100s of square feet? If the former, you're probably better off with a Z. If the latter, think small. ;)

[kutnkru]

Jodi I will agree with the fact that most of the time we do deal modestly with clients and this is not going to be one of them if they want this service. Poor choice of words I admit. I was just trying to clrify that we cannot charge nearly the same rates for all that extra time spent on a clients property if they wish us to use smaller machines and that by us charging extra for it we are not out to .., pilage and plunder the market simply get whats fair for our services based on the same rates they would have paid if we were using a larger mower.

[Likestomow]

I mow one yard with my 21" at the customers request. I was charging $35 to do it with the Dixie, and she was (is) most happy to pay $45 for me to do it with the Lawnboy. I make about the same rate per minute, and I saved the account by being flexible.

[precisioncut]

I agree with him on the 21". More effective on smaller lawns. Around here if you a lawn of a 1/4 or more, you have to much grass. Too much landscaping and obstacles for me so I do the same. But I am buying a 36" w/b for next season to speed up the "little" bigger ones.

[AltaLawnCare]

Wow blast from the past.

This was from the infamous "Casey" back in Sept of 2001.

I had to go back and read my response, LOL!

Two years later...now with a Z, 2 lawnboys, and a 48" Metro...

I know you can make more money with a Z....

And that pricing is rediculous. My original post was wrong...cAsey was wrong to leave that $10.00 on the table..

And I'm glad I don't have postage sized lawns!
:rolleyes:

[iluvbermuda]

Casey, I do not know for the life of me why so many folks slam people who use 21" mowers. You did not lowball or undercut anybody. You provided a service for a customer. If the person who was doing the prop wants it back he must either sell the customer a better price or sell a better cut. Remember people, we are providing a service. You cannot and should not have a attitude like you don't need the customer.

[odin]

Lol casey who did this post 2 years ago is fraud.Dont pay no attention to him. he was commited to a canadian mental hospital for the insane.

[65hoss]

hahahaha. Talk about interesting. Casey has had about 10 different names and been a fraud since the beginning. Why don't you newer guys do a search for the thread where he took the mower down a flight of stairs. That was a classic.

[Southpaw]

This gentleman is still around and only speaks in third person. In other words, he speaks only about himself as if somebody else were doing the talking. Maybe we should all try it. NOT

It would go something like this:

Southpaw will no longer tolerate your desires to be more like him. Southpaw will write a book and entitle it "How to be more like Me". He will require payment up front due to the lack of respect that Southpaw has endured in his quest to help out the common man. In fact, Southpaw has had to hire a secretary to filter through all the fan mail he recieves on a daily basis.

Oh yeah, ole Jack is still around and many think he is funny. I think he is funny (strange) not funny HAHA) unless I'm laughing directly at him and his posts.

[odin]

southpaw

Does the word deranged come to mind when thinking of ole...........I didnt put any thing in because he has to many names lol

[rodfather]

Originally posted by 65hoss
hahahaha. Talk about interesting. Casey has had about 10 different names and been a fraud since the beginning. Why don't you newer guys do a search for the thread where he took the mower down a flight of stairs. That was a classic.


I remember that one hoss...I damn near fell out of my chair laughing at that one. I was like WTF, how can someone be that much of an idiot? Lots of practice I guess...LOL

[GTLC]

LOWBALLER

[AltaLawnCare]

LOL,
He talks just like Bob Dole! 3rd person!

[Rustic Goat]

Was wondering how long it was going to take the reality of the original post of the thread to surface. Isn't this Casey aka Jack D, same topic and BS anyway.

[Jusmowin]

Ya...I remember this thread, it sure caused alot of hate and discontent.

[Fareway Lawncare]

Now that JustMowIt has Arrived...I Believe we Can Conclude that Yes You Can Make More $$$ w/a 21" than a Z !


.

[dishboy]

Your right, I have a number of lawns under 4k that it is just as fast or faster to do with the 21 than with the 36. In you have to go through a small gate or break out the 21 for another reason it is just as fast mowing the whole thing with the 21.

[Fareway Lawncare]

Well at least we know now why people will pay 1k for a "trim" mower!

Seems you can "trim" bigger profits than Riding Around in Fancy Pants Riders !

[fourseasonlawns]

I'll give away 4 21" and I will still have one left as memorabillia, kind of like my first dollar bill.
I don't even carry a 21" on my trailer anymore.

I will make sure that my 33" will fit through the gates on all new bids.

I have one property out of approx 75 where the gate is too small.
I use the customers mower in the back yard.

In my case, I'll never buy another 21" again.

[Soupy]

I was wondering why nobody noticed that the only reason he was able to cut the lawn faster, was because he had 2 people mowing instead of one guy on a Z. I had to read the whole thread waiting for someone to point out the obvious, just to find out it was a hoax all along :cry:

[dishboy]

I was wondering why nobody noticed that the only reason he was able to cut the lawn faster, was because he had 2 people mowing instead of one guy on a Z. I had to read the whole thread waiting for someone to point out the obvious, just to find out it was a hoax all along :cry:


Great theory, in my case I work alone have for over two decades and am very fast on both machines.

I use the 36 because it saves my puppys, but being anal and mowing a lot of bent or lawns infested with bent I find it is necessary to often make another pass to leave on some sections for a acceptable [to me] finish cut. This also applys to turf on irregular surfaces. The 21 always gets it on the first pass. A added benefit o f the 21 is it reduces trimming time because it gets closer and does not lay the turf down which I then have to trim to stand up on my edges. 21's are much better for not dumping mass clumpage on the walks between sections or the truck. I can scrape a 21 in about 1/3 the amount of time.

Just Mow it says he uses 21's because he does not get complaint's with this mower.......Hmmmm..............?. 2000 plus accounts doing production work and not getting complaints.

[DLCS]

Just Mow it says he uses 21's because he does not get complaint's with this mower.......Hmmmm..............?. 2000 plus accounts doing production work and not getting complaints.


No kidding....isn't that what all the elderly folk want for you to mow with a 21" mower. :p I guess a 21" would be fine if all you cut is postage stamp lawns.

[JustMowIt]

No kidding....isn't that what all the elderly folk want for you to mow with a 21" mower. :p I guess a 21" would be fine if all you cut is postage stamp lawns.


What I said is that larger mowers leave ruts in wet conditions & that we have a 1% complaint rate. I did not say that we don't have complainers, it is a given that someone will always complain!

[Fareway Lawncare]

Smaller res. demand 21"'s....if you run crews....

Unfortunately the 21" 2 Cycle Engines are Dead...& the 4 Stroke Offerings Suck...

Please Vote Bush For 2 Stroke Engine Technology.

[odin]

Since we are bringing up pasts from the pasts of fareway's other infamous screenames.casy- calvin -ultimate lawns -etc etc


Here it is the walkbehind stuck down the steps blast from the past.


New account with four wide wood trimmed stairs leading down to a large back yard. End of the day, not thinking clearly, tired, don't want to use the 21 on this back yard. Take the WB slowly down the stairs with deck tilted back. Cut the back & suddenly realize I have to get the WB BACK UP THE STAIRS. Dropped off the help before this job. Tilt the deck back & make a slow run at the first step (pretty steep), no go, increase speed make another run, no go. Wood is getting scraped. No way I'm going to make it up four steps. Unlock the hydro & pull. Doesn't work. Customer comes out, sees the scraped wood & me sweating & pushing at the bottom step. I tell her the machine broke down & I will restain the wood. She gives me an evil look (don't blame her) & watches as I push, pull, twist, lift, to no avail. Finally after about 15 min. I tell her I'll be right back. Phone everyone I know, answering machines, left lotsa URGENT messages. That WB is still sitting in her back yard. I'm so fu**** STUPID. What would you have done besides not take it down the steps

[odin]

Went back to the customers house yesterday morning with two employees, lumber, circular saw, wood stain & a sander. WB IS GONE! I am in shock. Then I see the wood fence at the back of the property has been smashed through. At this point I'm sure the WB was stolen. Walk over to the smashed fence & see the WB front end up against a tree in the adjoining yard. Blade was running because both my customers, & the neighbors flower garden have been chopped up. Take the WB out through the adjoining yard, sand & restain the steps & leave. Got a message from the customer last night to call her, but haven't been able to get through yet. Hoping the husband did this & not some kid looking to steal a WB so I don't have to pay for the damage. The fact the blade was running when it crashed through the fence makes me think it wasn't a theft attempt. If the hubby or one of their kids did it I'm not at fault & shouldn't fix the fence ????
I had my guys cut the adjoining yard because of the path the mower made from the garden to the tree. Not sure if that was a good idea.

[excell]

The last guy has a point. Most ops with larger mowers will throw a 21" out the window. We keep it only where it is extremely neccessary. (small strips of grass, only)