Controller too small - wiring 2

[Dirt Boy]

Looked at a job today that the guy wants to add more zones onto. Original installer seems as though he was a bit short sighted.

- 9 zone controller, 9 zones used.
- 13 wire cable run from controller (in garage) thru finished basement, outside to valve box.

They ran water supply pipe out to the area for future expansion, they also ran wire out to the area. However, the controller is already using all spaces, plus the 13 wires running out to the first (main) valve box is going to only allow 3 additional zones of capacity.

The area will likely take 4 or 5.

What are my choices, and what's the best, in your opinion?

I'm assuming I will have to have a larger controller.

I'm fairly new and haven't ran into this before.

Thanks

[irritation]

If it's not a modular controller you will have to replace it and if there is not enough wires you will have to run more. Should be a good money job.:)

[Dirty Water]

Sounds like a good Candidate for a ESP-16LX.

Or a 12LX if you are certain he won't expand again.

http://www.rainbird.com/images/products/turf/controllers/esplxplus_bg.jpg

[drmiller100]

switch to mprotators, and double the size of your zones, and run them each twice as long.

[ICS]

I would put a timer in simlar to a PRO-C and just ran an additional wire from the garage wall out and then through the beds to the POC on the outside of the house or where the boxes are going to go.

[PurpHaze]

New controller with 2-wire capability?

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Dirt Boy-Redisign the whole yard as if you were putting in a complete new system and go from there. Pressure test, flow test the whole nine yards and then you can back out what has been done and you will be comfortable with what needs to be done. Avoid turning this into a kludge. If he (the customer) is happy with the current system I would avoid retrofitting it to create new zones.

[WalkGood]

Some alternate outerspace suggestions. Maybe good ideas, maybe not. Someone will say if these are not good.

What if... you *ADD* a 6 zone controller and run 2 controllers?

Less cost to the customer, although it makes zone scheduling setup a little tricky. You could start the new zones at 11:00PM and then the old zones at 3:00AM to insure no overlap.

You either (1) have to run some extra wire out there or (2) use two of those unused wires in the original wireset to send the 28VAC power out there and mount an outdoor 6 zone controller that is protected/concealed within the landscaping.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Some alternate outerspace suggestions. Maybe good ideas, maybe not. Someone will say if these are not good.

What if... you *ADD* a 6 zone controller and run 2 controllers?

Less cost to the customer, although it makes zone scheduling setup a little tricky. You could start the new zones at 11:00PM and then the old zones at 3:00AM to insure no overlap.

You either (1) have to run some extra wire out there or (2) use two of those unused wires in the original wireset to send the 28VAC power out there and mount an outdoor 6 zone controller that is protected/concealed within the landscaping.

Double clocks are the beginning of a kludge.

[unit28]

2 controlers?....lol
Get a doubler and add your zone wire to an existing zone.
By adding 1 doubler would be very cost effective.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

2 controlers?....lol
Get a doubler and add your zone wire to an existing zone.
By adding 1 doubler would be very cost effective.

ADD A ZONES are much much better than doublers. Try one unit and you will never use a doubler again.

[unit28]

well there ya go, Add a Zone to your added zone.

one thing I would do is run a circut fuse though.
nothing like blowing the clock all the time from overdrawn amps....lol.
Had one install I found that was a waste.
So I added a doubler and the zones kept popping the fuse when they were on....at the same time.
Rechecked the controller and the helper installedthe wires on the same lead post....lol

[Kiril]

Perhaps a Hunter ACC Decoder Controller (http://www.hunterindustries.com/Products/Controllers/accdintro.html) would work? Pricey controller, but once you add up the cost of a new controller + running new field wire, it might end up cheaper.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

well there ya go, Add a Zone to your added zone.

one thing I would do is run a circut fuse though.
nothing like blowing the clock all the time from overdrawn amps....lol.
Had one install I found that was a waste.
So I added a doubler and the zones kept popping the fuse when they were on....at the same time.
Rechecked the controller and the helper installedthe wires on the same lead post....lol

i don't think you know what I'm talking about. Anyway here is the product for what it's worth.

www.thesource-online.com

Allows 2 independently timed zones to be operated
with only 1 pair of field wires
Add-A-Zone
Installation Instructions:
Technical Features:
Electrical Specifications:
R Co. Parts
11064 Serpentine Lane - Pleasanton, CA 94566 - Ph: (925) 484-0382 - Fax: (925) 484-0158
Now power from 2 zones on a controller can be transmitted to valves in
the field through only one pair of field wires. Introducing Add-A-Zone, the
convenient unit that eliminates the need to add wiring when adding a
zone. Use it to add additional valves to a system to correct water pressure
problems. Or use it to work around faulty field wiring.
Unlike other "switching" units, the Add-A-Zone behaves just like the valves are
fully independent. You set the individual run times for 2 zones on the controller
just like you regularly would and Add-A-Zone works "behind the scenes" to
make it happen. Maximum control and flexibility that installs in minutes.
Adapter Part A
(installs in controller cabinet)
1. Connect Brown wire to one station output.
2. Connect Red wire to existing common wire.
3. Connect Black wire to the good field wire.
Adapter Part B
(bury in ground where convenient)
1. Connect Black wire to existing zone wire.
2. Connect White wire to existing common wire.
3. Connect Red and White wire to the first control valve.
4. Connect Brown and White wire to the second control valve.
· Operates on most 24-Volt sprinler systems
· Switching capacity: 0.5 A
· Life Expectancy: 50,000 operations
Model: RCO860009
Add-A-Zone
Individually Control
2 Zones with 1 Pair
of Field Wires
R Co. Parts
Pleasanton, CA 94566
Model: RCO860009
· Both valves connected to an Add-A-Zone are independently timed and activated from the controller for both manual
and automatic operation.
· The 2 valves can be assigned to separate watering schedules and programs in the controller.
· Permits easy addition of an additional valve to controllers with spare stations without the need to divide out a run
time on a single zone or activate the new valve every other watering cycle.
· Makes adding a valve to correct water pressure problems easy.
· Broken wires can be abandoned and worked around without loss of programming flexibility.
· Fast and inexpensive to install.
· The added valve can be a master valve.
CONTROLLER
Valve 1
Valve 2
Yellow
( O n e - 1 )
Yellow
( O n e - 1 )
Yellow
( T w o - 2 )
Yellow
( T w o - 2 )
White (common)
Common
Terminal
S t a t i o n
Terminal
RED
WHITE
C o m m o n
Adapter
(Part A)
Add-A-Zone
Individually Control
2 Zones with 1 Pair
of Field Wires
R CO. Parts
Pleasanton, Ca 94566
Model: RCO860009

[Kiril]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the add-a-zone require a free slot on the controller? If the controller is already full, you can't add valves to it without doubling up a zone.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the add-a-zone require a free slot on the controller? If the controller is already full, you can't add valves to it without doubling up a zone.

That's correct same as doubler. The only reason one would use the ADD A Zone is to avoid running new wire which is always the best option. DB is going to have to get a larger controller anyhow.

[WalkGood]

Double clocks are the beginning of a kludge.

Can you explain why you think so?

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Can you explain why you think so?

Most HOs don't know how to irrigate properly nor understand how to use their clocks. A HO with two clocks would just compound the problem. Too much for them to think about. Also would require multiple r/f sensors (code here). Once you start going down that path where you are trying to make it as cheap as possible for the HO where do you stop? Surely you don't see two clocks as a better option than one clock even if it saves the HO money? Besides someday somebody like me will come along and lambaste the contractor who took the cheap way out. If they can't afford to have one clock to run their whole system they probably shouldn't be doing the work anyway.

[WalkGood]

Most HOs don't know how to irrigate properly nor understand how to use their clocks. A HO with two clocks would just compound the problem. Too much for them to think about. Also would require multiple r/f sensors (code here). Once you start going down that path where you are trying to make it as cheap as possible for the HO where do you stop? Surely you don't see two clocks as a better option than one clock even if it saves the HO money? Besides someday somebody like me will come along and lambaste the contractor who took the cheap way out. If they can't afford to have one clock to run their whole system they probably shouldn't be doing the work anyway.

One clock is best. No one would install 2 6-zones at the start instead of one 12-zone controller.

IIRC, last 12-zone controller I replaced the cost to us was ~ $175 versus a 6-zone controller at $75. With markup that becomes a $200 price difference to the customer. That's real big money to many people. Esp if their original controller is but a few years old.

Like I said, it was an outer-space suggestion. Thanks for your opinion.

[Wet_Boots]

A new controller isn't a big burden for a 4-5 zone expansion. The wiring is more of a problem, and solutions would be site-specific.

[Dirt Boy]

Thanks guy's,
Got the controller (RB ??? new modular job), needs 5 zones, am going to try and pull another cable so I will have enough wires. But I'm wondering about 2 wire and decoders, from my understanding, there kinda pricey, plus you would have to change valves out to work? Don't know if that's true, but if you did go with 2 wire, would you have to do ALL the valves/zones, or could you just do the additional ones you need?

Anyway the clown that did it in the first place, knew he would want to add on someday, and he did not allow for it.

[Dirty Water]

Thanks guy's,
Got the controller (RB ??? new modular job), needs 5 zones, am going to try and pull another cable so I will have enough wires. But I'm wondering about 2 wire and decoders, from my understanding, there kinda pricey, plus you would have to change valves out to work? Don't know if that's true, but if you did go with 2 wire, would you have to do ALL the valves/zones, or could you just do the additional ones you need?

Anyway the clown that did it in the first place, knew he would want to add on someday, and he did not allow for it.

You can run hybrid conventional/ Two wire setups with some timers, some kits even convert modular controllers to 2 wire.

You don't need to change the valves, just add a decoder in each box. Not worth it at all in this application.

[bicmudpuppy]

I'm late to this thread, but one caution for those double clock fans. Two clocks on one common often create phase problems. Phase problems do not have to occur only from seperate power sources, I have had phase problems w/ ICC's on the same power circuit. Easiest fix is a heavier transformer to provide power to both controllers from one. (yes, two ICCs side by side and full!) They also make products to prevent phasing, but most of them interupt the water schedule, they don't prevent the problem.

[Wet_Boots]

I remember tying a pair of Richdel clocks together, and I learned that tying the master valves together would make one clock start the second clock on its watering program. This was not good.

[duwaprod]

Dirtboy,
We have a set of products that are made for this exact situation. It sounds like you already bought a new controller but we even have a product that repeats the input on 4 zones to a second set of 4 zones. With 4 field wires and 4 outputs on the controller you can drive 8 valves. Check out our products for a future application and good luck with your retrofit.

--Don
www.duwa-prod.com

[jcom]

We have a customer with 29 zones, 5 controllers, and will not spend for a new controller and pulling new cable to central control.

Tricky to say the least with scheduling but they pay the tab when we have to go out.

John:rolleyes:

[SprinklerGuy]

If a double clock is the beginning of a kludge...a doubler or add a zone in this case is the beginning of a super kludge....

If the old contractor was able to get 13 strand from the timer to the valves..what would stop you from running more wire?

Phase problems are my favorite to find......3 timers 1 common.....commercial site....6 different contractors changing timers and valves and transformers...LOL.....I love being the last guy in sometimes.....

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Two wire systems are basically long ADD A ZONES. At least with the add a zone you can look in the clock and know it has been done. With the doubler you don't find out until you start working on it.