More info. on hydroseeders?

[Shawn Burns]

Hello all,
I have done a search on hydroseeders and have found some great information on them, thank you to all that have posted with your knowledge on this subject! I realize that the Finn,Turfmaker, and a few others are the popular choice, and that you get what you pay for, but i still have some questons. Would it be silly to buy a cheaper machine first (i'm looking at a turbo turf HS 300 E $3995) since i won't be doing huge areas, and then if all goes well in a year or two buy a bigger, better machine? I have a few builders who are interested in the service. They, combined will build about 20-30 houses a year, and also some other landscapers that i have talked to have said they would be interested also. Most lawns to be seeded would be in the 5,000-10,000 sq. ft. range. I would not be relying on this service to be a sole income, just looking to diversify. I checked the HTPA site, and from what i gather you have to be a member to get any info. . I don't want to join if i'm not sure that i will be buying one yet. Thanks again for any ideas or suggestions!!

[paul]

I would double what you want to spend and buy a TurfMaker 400 gallon unit. You can easily mix 180 lbs of wood mulch (it's the best mulch to use) plus tack. I'm no expert in this area but I've found that 1500 lbs of mulch or more per acre works best. We are pushung our customers to 2000 lbs of mulch per acre on the flat areas and 2500 to 3000 lbs on slopes.


Heres a quick work sheet I use for my figures.

[Shawn Burns]

Thanks Paul !!
I looked at the Turf Maker 400, it will cost me about $10,000 around here. I don't doubt that it is a good unit, but wondered if i could get into this a little cheaper. Maybe i should just bite the bullet and spend the money!!!
Also, where do y'all get your water? do you have a meter and pay once a month on what you used or what?
Thanks again for the info!!

[paul]

Another machine you might want to try is Kincaid, they gave us some very good prices on 400 and 600 gallon machines. Their phone # 316-465-2204 or http://www.kincaidequipment.com/kincaid4-01/mulching-seeding

[Shawn Burns]

Thanks once again paul. Got some info. on the way.
Does anybody own or run a Turbo Turf or know someone who has? If so i would love to hear how they like it.

[The Good Earth]

Shawn,

I would lean towards the 400 gallon Turfmaker. This is the reason:

Say you get these builders to throw 20 new builds at you. You said they will run between 4 and 10 thousand square feet. We'll use 7,000 square feet as an average figure. That gives you 140,000 square feet to seed. The price I use for 7,000 square feet is $0.0875 per square. That gives you a profit of $12,250.00 before material costs are taken out. Material costs should run you between $2,800 and $3,300. So you are pulling in the area of $8,500.00 before taxes and all that fun stuff.

So you lease the 400 gallon Turfmaker for 2 years. Your first 20 jobs damn near pays the machine off.

I know this is a long path to follow but this is my point. If you buy quality right off the bat, you don't have to worry about going back and buying another machine. My dealer won't even take poly tanks on a trade in for a new mechanically agitated machine. The difference between jet and mechanical agitation is night and day.

We have a 900 gallon Turfmaker that is the greatest thing since sliced bread, in my opinion. You throw 6 to 8 bales of Conwed in per load and you are pumping a thick slurry in no time flat.

Also you have to figure the money that you will make prepping the job. You will be O.K. finance wise as long as the builder isn't yanking your chain and the customer you are working for pays in a timely manner.

[paul]

Here an article for you to read on equipment http://www.forester.net/ec_0101_hydroseeders.html

[Guido]

Originally posted by paul
Here an article for you to read on equipment http://www.forester.net/ec_0101_hydroseeders.html

Thats a good article, I skimmed through it in Erosion Control I think.

www.erosioncontrol.com (it's a good magazine if your into hydroseeding, usually has a lot of info on that and other similiar things.)

[paul]

Guido, it also has articles on retaining walls and will help a few here on lake and stream bank erosion!

[Guido]

about 15 magazines (at least) between construction and landscaping industries, 3 personal ones, and all the company and product "junk" literature they can pile into my box.

I wish I had time, but I never get to do more than a "skim through" on about 10 of them. They all have some great articles, and if nothing else, they're great to have as refrences.

If I find an article or clipping I really like, I punch holes in it and catogorize it in a binder. In about 3 months my "stack" of magazines and brochures gets to be 4 foot tall, so I can't save it all! :(

[turfquip]

Hello Guys, I have the updated prices and specs on DFI's Stainless Steel line of hydra'seeders for the model year '02. I'll place the link at the bottom of this post.

These aren't your average rebuild-it-every-three-years carbon steel throw away units.

I recognize too, that in some cases these may be beyond your financial ability.

I don't mean to make anybody feel bad about the units they now own or are contemplating, I just want to let you know that there is a high-end alternative out there for the disciminating buyer :-)



2002 DFI Stainless Steel Hydra'Seeders (http://www.turfquip.com/hydroseeding.html#SS)

[paul]

Ed, They are nice looking units! Really not that much more than a Finn or Bowie!

[turfquip]

Thanks Paul, and when you look at the workmanship that goes into these, and the reputation of the components DFI uses i.e. Kubota water cooled diesel vs. Kohler 25 air cooled gas, its really a no brainer :D

[Shawn Burns]

Jay,
That piece of information really helps alot!!!!!! I think from what you said and the general opinion of folks that i have talked to i have decided to pursue purchasing a higher quality machine like the Turfmaker or the Finn. Another reason for possibly going with the Turfmaker is the dealer that sells and services my mowers also sells the Turfmaker. That is one big problem i see with buying a cheaper machine, who will work on it?
By the way, how much trouble do yall really have with mechanical agitation components? I know if you use it, it will break. That holds true with ALL equipment!! That seems to be the downside to mechanical agitation.

Thanks again for all the help,
Shawn Burns

[paul]

Shawn thats one reason I went with Finn with hydraulically driven reversible mechanical agitation, no belts to wear out. Only thing I miss is a deisel motor:(

[Alan]

Turbo Turf seeders are excellent units. The one I built is a lot like TT with some added bells and whistles. The local rental yard has a 300 Gal, TT and it seems to do just fine, considering the ineptitude of mot renters.

As for water, I'm lucky in that this area is rural enough and blessed with enough streams and ponds that I can pick up water within a mile or two of almost anywhere.

One thing to keep in mind, a small seeder accompanied by a big nurse tank is just as good as a big seeder and far less expensive. Mix time may be a bit greater, but I can go on the job with water enough (about 1200 gallons) to do a normal subdivision lot. My seeder is small, 200 gal., and I work alone, so it's actually nice to take a break from pulling hose every 2,200 sf or so and go mix a load. With adequate agitation I can mix as fast as I can put mulch in the machine and add seed.

I set mine up so that I can draw water from a pond and fill the nurse tank, then switch one hose and be able to draw from the nurse tank as I need water. Took a while to get it all plumbed right but it works now.

I figure that when 1 man can put down 20,000 ft in a 6 hour day you're making pretty good money. I've never felt that lack of mechanical agitation was any hindrance.

[Shawn Burns]

Alan,
Do you ever notice a problem with how uniform your seed is? I mean, when it all comes up are there any bare spots that might be due to lack of good agitation? This is , from what i gather the problem with jet mixers opposed to mechanical mixers. I would love to hear what you have to say, being that you can hardly ever believe what a salesman will tell you!!
How long is the germination period on what you're shooting? Is it the same as regular?

[paul]

Shawn, The real question is how much mulch can you put in a tank. We are mixing 240 lbs of wood mulch to 500 gallons of water. Not many jet machines can handle that much mulch. The more mulch you can spray, and get an even heavy coverage the better your seed will come up.

[The Good Earth]

Paul is right on target with his reply. The more mulch, the better off you are. The only other thing that you can do to increase germination results is to pre-germ the seed. Soak it in water about 24 hours before you shoot it and it will increase the germination time. The drawback is if your machine can't handle the glob that the seed goes into the tank. With a heavy mulch load, tackifier, and seed in that condition I think that you are probably asking a whole lot of a jet agitated machine.

As for having problems with our mechanical agitation, the only thing we had was a weld break off the pulley system. We got on the horn with Turfmaker and they told us to forward the repair invoice to them and they would square it up with us.

There is nothing that says you can't get quality results with a jet agitated machine. Please don't misunderstand my point. I am a firm believer that anybody with determination can make any piece of equipment suit the needs that they have. You could really mix everything in a bucket, pour it out, and rake it in by hand. (Not something I would do!!!!) You really just need to figure out what you want to spend on your initial investment, and what type of return you expect the machine to give you in terms of profitability, reliablilty, and resale value.

[Shawn Burns]

Jay,
I think you're exactly right about making what you have work for you.
As far as this hydro seeder goes, I want to buy the machine that has the best reputation around here. The thoughts of you folks that use this equipment holds much more weight than what any dealer or sales person might say. I am waiting to get some info. on the Finn seeders, i haven't heard anything from them in a week or so. As i stated before, i have an awesome equip. dealer here where i buy my lawn equip. from and they sell the Turfmaker line of seeders. This will weigh alot on my final decision i'm sure. It will be nice to have someone close by to service the machine if and when i run into problems.
I also buy what y'all are saying about using alot of wood fiber mulch. I'm not a big LCO, so i want to keep the quality up. That's what gets you places!!!
One last question, where do y'all get your mulch?

[The Good Earth]

Shawn,

I use Conwed mulch. Either the Enviroblend or the 1000. I don't use the 2000 because I would rather mix my own tackifier in the mix. I have no experience with paper mulch. I've heard good and bad with paper. But with wood, I only have heard good things and got good results with it.

When you figure out price of material per tank it really doesn't cost that much more to use quality mulch in adequate amounts. Compared to the cost of going back and re-shooting and also having customers question your work, I'll spend an extra $50 per tank. I have picked up quite a bit of business the second half of this season because of contractors using inferior products and doing crap jobs. I honestly hope these guys keep doing what they are doing. Just makes my work all the better, and I don't have to spend money on advertising.

[Alan]

Originally posted by Shawn Burns
Alan,
Do you ever notice a problem with how uniform your seed is? I mean, when it all comes up are there any bare spots that might be due to lack of good agitation? This is , from what i gather the problem with jet mixers opposed to mechanical mixers. I would love to hear what you have to say, being that you can hardly ever believe what a salesman will tell you!!
How long is the germination period on what you're shooting? Is it the same as regular?

I've seen some jet machines that could not keep a tank agitated, so I know exactly what you're talking about. Not a problem with Turbo Turf at all. Also not a problem with plugging as TT does not use a tube with holes in it, they run a pair of big jets that spray up along the tank sides. Jets are either 1 1/4 or 2", depending on model. Their larger models also run dual outlets on the tank so if you do happen to get a huge glob of mulch that blocks the suction on one you can run off the other and deal with the clog after the tank is empty.

My machine is a homebuilt along the lines of TT and I have not seen any bare spots. If I put the slurry down evenly I get good establishment. As for time, I run the recommended amount of "good" seed and then add a couple pounds per thousand of annual rye. The last one I did was two weeks ago and it was showing good green in eight days. When I do erosion control and am running winter rye and conservation mix I usually see the winter rye in 3-4 days in good hot weather.

I usually give the tank about 5 minutes to mix after I add seed. The jets are positioned so that they make the slurry "roll" in the tank. After it's mixed I've never had a problem with it segregating, even when I cut down the flow to the agitators to boost discharge pressure.

[Shawn Burns]

Hello Again,
I just wanted to say thanks to all who have posted. Your advice has helped sooo much in preparing me to know what to look for when i buy a seeder!!!! I will most likely make my purchase in the spring after i sift through all of this info. sitting on my desk! Please keep any advice coming, i still have alot to learn!!!
Thanks Again,
Shawn Burns

[Shawn Burns]

O.K.,
I already have another question. Turbo Turf will add a valve, a reel , and hose so that you can use their machine as a sprayer when not seeding. Any thoughts on this???

[Stonehenge]

For my hydroseeder I had the option of getting a reel, but that option was an additional $1,000!! So I decided that, with the amount of biz we do seeding lawns, it wasn't worth.

Of course, as you'd figure, we've been seeding lawns more than anything else over the last several weeks and will in the coming weeks, and I kinda wished I'd have ponied up the money. Instead we have 100' or hose that has to get uncoiled and recoiled on 2 big hooks on the tank.

[Shawn Burns]

O.K.,
I have another question ,or want another opinion from yall fine folks! I have talked to alot of people over the last couple of weeks about these hydro seeders and have narrowed my options down to the Turf Maker 420, or the Finn T-60. I know the Finn is a little bigger and that makes some difference, but ti is almost twice the price of the TM-420.Is it worth it? Some of the differences are;
The 420 is skid mounted, so i can put it on a dedicated trailer, and shortly i can also mount an auxillary tank to increase production significantly. TheT-60 is an all in one trailer, not giving the option of an auxillary tank. Now that i think about it, i,m not sure if the T-60 is even available as a skid.
The pro of the T-60 is that it has the hydro-driven paddle agitation, where the 420 is belt driven paddle agitation.
The Turf Maker dealer will drive 2 hrs. and demo the machine ,the Finn dealer in my area will not, says he dosen't sell many units as small as i want.
I think alot for a dealer who is willing to come and show me what i will be buying, who spends that kind of money without knowing what they are buying anyway?
Also the Turf Maker dealer says he will sell me his demo with a few scratches and a few hrs. with full warranty and several upgrades( 13 horse honda, reel, and extra hose) for about $2500 off new price!!
So, what do yall think????
Thanks again,
Shawn

[Stonehenge]

I think it sounds like you've already made your decision. Go with it.

[Indiana]

Where are you in NC?

You might want to consider a Bowie as well. They make great seeders. Personally I like Finn the best. I have a T-50 deisel model.

GREAT SEEDER. Runs and shoots wonderful.

[Shawn Burns]

Indiana,
I'm about 15 miles south of Raleigh.

I kind of have made a dicision but wanted to know if y'all are thinking along the same lines that i am.

[Sean Gassman]

With any piece of equipment, if the dealer is not willing to demo and show you how good it is, I would not spend my money with him. It doesn't matter which machine you get, you must see it work first. Put it thru all type of spraying, wood, paper, and long hose applications are the most common. If you are working on houses with little access are large yards make sure you have enough power to push thick slurries thru hoses of 200-400-ft. I personnally have to do this with our jobs. I put down 2000lbs per 1,000 sf and can push it in 400 ft of hose with my Bowie 500.
:blob3:
www.htpa.org

[Shawn Burns]

2000 lbs. per 1000 sf ???

[paul]

87,000 lbs of mulch per acre?

[Sean Gassman]

Sorry, I meant to say 2000 lbs per acer.

[Shawn Burns]

Sean,
That's what i was hoping you meant, but being new at this i wasn't sure. You are a member of HTPA aren't you? If so, can you tell me if you have to join( $100) to get into their info. pages? I tried their web site and that's what i gathered.
Also, i have been suprised at the number of hydro seeder dealers that will not demo a machine. I think like you, i have to see it work before i will buy it, and so far Turf Maker Corp. are the only ones who have a dealer who will demo.

[Sean Gassman]

I am the President of the association and yes you have to be a member to have access to the grass information. You may want to call the parent companies that make the machines. Go over the dealers heads and ask for a demo. This should work, if not then move on to the next machine until you can see what you are paying for. You wouldn't spend this kind of money on a car without a test drive would you?

[Shawn Burns]

Sean,
You're exactly right about trying somthing before you buy it. I don't know about going over the dealers head to get a demo, it seems like this might create hard feelings and that might make sales and service difficult in the future.
About your site, i would love to get in and get more info on the whole scope of the industry(hydro seeding), but i don't want to pay $100 if i'm not even sure i'll be buying a machine. Although if i do get one , i will join for sure.