Ever build a ship in a bottle?

[WalkGood]

Service call here for a leaking busted zone valve. Learned it froze over winter along with the copper feed thru the unheated garage (fixed by owner's son); not winterized in time. They waited til now, mid summer, to get the irrigation fixed.

No room to twist off the zone valve. I think this former-home-owner built manifold was made by a ship-in-a-bottle hobbyist. The feed for the glued manifold and all the zone lines go thru holes bored in the sides of the deep valve box.

I didn't catch it right away tho, and after digging all around the box I couldn't pull it out. Then I realized after seeing all zone lines and the feed moving with the box, I noticed the lines go thru the box walls, not "under".

My pruning cutters snipped off the 3/4" polly lines and I disconnected the PVC union on the feed. I also "opened up" the valvebox side openings for more access.

You can see the too-long corkscrew hose clamps and wacky approach angles of the old poly zone lines. Some of the connections did not have a clamp at all. Not visible in the pictures but there are bushes and their roots all around the valve box area. Nothin like gettin poked in the face and ears with branches while working.

It ain't pretty, but there's the new manifold and zonevalves connected up to the zone lines.

[WalkGood]

Here's a second manifold, same house. Besides being ugly the only problem was a corroded electrical connection (no wire nut). The "craftsman" must have used 3 pounds of solder to make this.

Dig the hose bibb thru the fence post.

[Wet_Boots]

ASVs in a valve box? Ain't that nice.

[hoskm01]

ASVs in a valve box? Ain't that nice.


Scary, we see it too often here. To most fools its just another valve.

[PurpHaze]

ASVs in a valve box? Ain't that nice.

Scary, we see it too often here. To most fools its just another valve.

Obviously the ASVs aren't high enough. I've seen this same "trick" with brass ASVs installed by plumbers.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Uh walkgood what did you do for backflow protection after taking out those asvs and replacing them with those Hunters?

[PurpHaze]

Uh walkgood what did you do for backflow protection after taking out those asvs and replacing them with those Hunters?

I was thinking along liability lines also.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

It seems if I recall correctly that Boots and Walkgood got into a back and forth over this and walkgood said there were no bf requirements where he works.

[PurpHaze]

It seems if I recall correctly that Boots and Walkgood got into a back and forth over this and walkgood said there were no bf requirements where he works.

Then why were ASVs installed in the first place when simple ball valves or gate valves would of done the trick? :)

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Then why were ASVs installed in the first place when simple ball valves or gate valves would of done the trick? :)

I don't know Purp. I just don't knowwwww...........:cry:

[PurpHaze]

Maybe they once had backflow ordinances and rescinded them as unnecessary? Or maybe their water is so bad that there's no saving it? :laugh:

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

I think these are Walkgood's first pics and he didn't get his feet in like I did. Keep the pics coming. Somehow we will make you understand the importance of bf protection regardless of your town's code.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

I also went and checked his pic size properties. That alone should make Boots happy.

[PurpHaze]

Boots no longer should worry about picture sizes.... especially after he posted those 5 Buckner sprinkler pics side by side in the other thread. You almost need two monitors to view the dang pages now. :nono: :laugh:

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

I'm using the bottom of this thread to try some pic practice. It's a time waster but I think I figured out how to cut my pics down with out special software.

[PurpHaze]

I think you got it... 640 x 480 and 20k-30k. Boots should be thrilled.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Basically you have to resave and then it will ask to reset the pic quality which I greatly reduce.

[SprinklerGuy]

Pruning Shears? Why not use a chainsaw......sheesh.

[WalkGood]

Pruning Shears? Why not use a chainsaw......sheesh.

'cause there was no room to use a poly cutter in the box with the old valves in the way, wisenheimer. When the box was extracted, the pruners are quicker at cutting. Less sweating too. Darn, I knew I should have brought my laser guided CNC milling machine to carve up the valve box.

[bobw]

I keep my Bosch battery op sawsall with me at all times...makes short work out of other's stupidity....

[Dirty Water]

God, poly repairs look so ugly no matter how hard you try.

[Wet_Boots]

It seems if I recall correctly that Boots and Walkgood got into a back and forth over this and walkgood said there were no bf requirements where he works.There is a NYS webpage somewhere that distills the competing backflow regulations down to plain talk for laymen. Board of Health sets a baseline, that an ASV can meet. Local purveyors can chime in, or not. But they can't eliminate the BoH baseline.

I was kind of exercised about it, not because of "I'm right - you're wrong" but because of the lack of essential CYA thinking involved in not providing backflow protection.

[Kiril]

IMHO backflow prevention should not be an option. You just install it, required or not.

[Wet_Boots]

Boots no longer should worry about picture sizes.... especially after he posted those 5 Buckner sprinkler pics side by side in the other thread. You almost need two monitors to view the dang pages now. :nono: :laugh:Did those not display to fit the screen? My bad. (note to self - include a space between photos, when tossing in a bunch of them, so all browsers can arrange them to fit the monitor screen)

[PurpHaze]

Did those not display to fit the screen? My bad. (note to self - include a space between photos, when tossing in a bunch of them, so all browsers can arrange them to fit the monitor screen)

They posted side by side. That whole page is WAY wide while once you turn the page to this page everything is back to normal... at least on my monitor.

[Kiril]

Well, for those blind folks that run their desktop at 800x600, no image will fit. :)

[PurpHaze]

Well, for those blind folks that run their desktop at 800x600, no image will fit. :)

640 x 480 fits vey well... thank you. :laugh:

[Kiril]

Purps reaction to Boots pictures :nono:

[Wet_Boots]

I occasionally reset the monitor resolution, when I read the funny pages online. My Firefox browser fit those five images into three lines, and no side-scrolling needed. Times change. Used to be that you had to check your HTML on a browser other than IE, so that all could view.

[Kiril]

Used to be that you had to check your HTML on a browser other than IE, so that all could view.

Still do. IE sucks.

[PurpHaze]

Purps reaction to Boots pictures :nono:

Hmmm... 121 x 81... a little smaller and you could use it as an avatar. :)

[PurpHaze]

Still do. IE sucks.

Call me lazy. :laugh:

[WalkGood]

I think these are Walkgood's first pics and he didn't get his feet in like I did. Keep the pics coming. Somehow we will make you understand the importance of bf protection regardless of your town's code.

You are preaching to the choir. I know the importance of backflow prevention. I cannot "FORCE" someone into having it if they do not want it. I can suggest it as an option, that is all.

[Wet_Boots]

You are preaching to the choir. I know the importance of backflow prevention. I cannot "FORCE" someone into having it if they do not want it. I can suggest it as an option, that is all.Hopefully, you can make it a requirement to be on your customer list. One incentive is the truthful claim that the bad plumbing makes a home technically unsaleable, since a competent inspector will catch the flaws, and refuse to sign off for the home to be saleable. I've closed a few systems that had improper/no backflow, and informed the homeowner that my repair services were available, once the system was up to code. Sometimes I never hear from them again, and sometimes I do. Sometimes, they can point at neighbors who have the same lack of proper backflow, as if that were some justification for doing it wrong. Big whoop, sez me. Pony up the dough to get it right. You only have to buy the upgrade once.

[WalkGood]

Boots,

We've hashed this out last month ago or so. This is the last I'll say about the backflow issue.

Home Inspectors can only state the truth. It's best to have but it is not legally required IN THIS AREA. It will NOT hold up the sale of a house unless the new mortgage company requires it. We will lose many MANY customers if we try to require a bf safety device. Starve on principals is very noble but it doesn't pay the bills to be a cru-sader.

Nuff said.

[Kiril]

FYI, New York State Department of Health says otherwise.

http://www.health.state.ny.us/environmental/water/drinking/cross/pws12.htm

[Wet_Boots]

Boots,

We've hashed this out last month ago or so. This is the last I'll say about the backflow issue.Yeah, but it's almost too delicious not to pursue. Something like a visitation from acolytes from The Church of Saint Beryl the Leaper. How can one not want to poke the situation with a stick?

For those of you without scorecards, the point of contention is the idea that New York State Department of Health (http://www.health.state.ny.us/environmental/water/drinking/cross/pws12.htm) regulations are somehow not in effect in some portion of Suffolk County. I don't see it. But then again, I'm not drinking the (Koolaid) water :p

A lot of long-standing flaws get caught when a home goes up for sale. Some can get a certificate of occupancy revoked. Backflow is one of them. (I think the most popular flaw that's caught during these inspections is still the sump pump draining into the sewer system) No local purveyor can nullify state Department of Health regulations. They've been around for a long time. You can pretend they don't exist, and the water purveyors are probably not legally obligated to enforce DoH regulations. Everyone can pass the buck. Where the building departments are in all this, I do have to wonder.

I'm not drinking the LI water, so pollute away. What makes it tough going for the sprinkler guys in a who-cares locality, is all the existing non-compliant work that sets a bad example. Makes it hard to rise above the pack. You do have my sympathies, up to a point, and my encouragement to build a customer roster of code-compliant systems that outsiders would be happy to spend the upgrade money to join.

By the way, ever try to get one of those Water Authority guys to put their 'no backflow required' policy in writing, on their letterhead, and signed and dated and witnessed?

[PurpHaze]

... The Church of Saint Beryl the Leaper.

Does he leap the barrels on dry land by running or is this one of those winter things where he leaps barrels while on ice skates? :)

[Kiril]

For those of you without scorecards, the point of contention is the idea that New York State Department of Health regulations are somehow not in effect in some portion of Suffolk County.

Gotta love those people who fly in the face of every national and state code recommendation and/or requirement. Stupid, corrupt, political B.S. Perhaps they also let you dump raw sewage in the streets?

Imagine what will happen if a home owner is responsible for contaminating the water supply, and the DOH traces the PS to you. I say install them,l required or not. Don't even give them an option, it is simply part of the job. I have no doubt sooner or later it WILL be required at a Federal level, look at it as future proofing.

[Wet_Boots]

Purp, you are not hip. Turn in your sunglasses and Otter Pops.http://bedazzled.blogs.com/bedazzled/images/bedazzled.jpg

[WalkGood]

Yeah, but it's almost too delicious not to pursue.

Pursue away.... you'll be the equiv of one hand clapping. Or is that one Boot hoppin? :laugh:

[Wet_Boots]

Hey, someday you'll have an exclusive clientele, and the salad days will be forgotten. Still, that box of ASVs could have been replaced with above-ground ASVs for the same money as valves-plus-box, so little incentive existed for not doing this job right.

In the towns where there's a lot of bad plumbing, I just state up front what it will take, in work and money, for the system to be up and running that day (with proper backflow a part of it) and most folks don't have a problem with the expense.

What I don't do, is give the homeowner veto power over the backflow portion of the job. The vast majority of them want their sprinklers running the day you show up, and they're usually willing to pay what it takes.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

It is pretty amazing and somewhat hard to believe that in this country that there is a locality that says backflow prevention is not nescessary. Any other contractors live in a city with municipal water that does not have backflow requirements?

[Wet_Boots]

Hey, there are states without building codes, so what the hey. I strongly suspect, in this locale, that any 'legal challenge' to a backflow requirement might have related to someone trying to enforce the multi-family-dwelling requirements on a single family home.

[Kiril]

Common sense should tell you not to use your well as an outhouse.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

I realize in the WILD WEST we may have some strange building codes and noncompliance. (Go to Greater Brownsville TX bordering Mexico) But New Yawk has been around for a long time and has a reputation for beauracracy. I just wouldn't expect anything of the sort there. It's not like you guys border a third world country.

[greenmonster304]

I work in in the same area as wet boots and walkgood and the back flow may be the code but it is hard for the inspecter of a new home to see one if he never gets out of his car. Here on the east end of LI there is so much construction and so few inspectors they can't keep up even if they wanted to, so people take advantage of this and cut corners. I have seen outdoor audio wires laid under the sod, 110 volt landscape lighting "spaded in" 2 inches, yellow plastic gas service 12".

[PurpHaze]

Purp, you are not hip. Turn in your sunglasses and Otter Pops.

Oops... looks like I missed that one. Oh... Dudley Moore... thank God I missed THAT one. :laugh:

[WalkGood]

I work in in the same area as wet boots and walkgood and the back flow may be the code but it is hard for the inspecter of a new home to see one if he never gets out of his car. Here on the east end of LI there is so much construction and so few inspectors they can't keep up even if they wanted to, so people take advantage of this and cut corners. I have seen outdoor audio wires laid under the sod, 110 volt landscape lighting "spaded in" 2 inches, yellow plastic gas service 12".

Hey Greenmonster

Yes, we live/work "close" but no cigar. Hamptons may very well be different than other jurisdictions on Long Island. Most of Suffolk county , Brookhaven in particular, Babylon I'm almost certain as well..... no backflow requirement on irrigation any more.

[Wet_Boots]

Oops... looks like I missed that one. Oh... Dudley Moore... thank God I missed THAT one. :laugh:Peter Cook and Dudley Moore were from the sketch comedy days that predated Monty Python. Cook and Moore did great stuff together.

no backflow requirement on irrigation any more.This just in from the Fargo, North Dakota Department of Badger Control - yes, it's official, no backflow required on alternate Thursdays during leap years.

[PurpHaze]

Peter Cook and Dudley Moore were from the sketch comedy days that predated Monty Python. Cook and Moore did great stuff together.

If you say so. :)

[greg251]

I'm interested how many people from Long Island are actually licensed properly to do lawn sprinklers. And no, backflow protection is not required in suffolk county, they changed the law a few years back.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Thanks for weighing in Greg. It seems that state and federal law would override a rogue county but this isWILD NEW YAWKyou guys put the rough and tumble west to shame

[greg251]

I guess Suffolk county is a crazy rouge state. Here is another fun fact here, in order to have a "legal" lawn sprinkler business you need to have worked as a electrician for 5 years with W-2's to prove it and work as a plumber for 5 years with W-2's. On top of that we have consumer affairs people driving around with cops pulling contractors off jobs and giving tickets. Suffolk makes it nearly impossible to operate legally but at least they did us a favor not requiring backflow valves.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Greg you apparently have not met Wet Boots. I feel a hammering coming on. Get your hard hats folks.:hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[Wet_Boots]

What I am wondering, is what the Suffolk County irrigators think is going to CYA if a backflow event occurs, and the plumbing doesn't meet NYS DoH requirements? I suppose a water authority can sit on their hands, but their indifference is not a license to pollute, and their silence cannot be counted on as approval of anything.

[Kiril]

What I am wondering, is what the Suffolk County irrigators think is going to CYA if a backflow event occurs, and the plumbing doesn't meet NYS DoH requirements? I suppose a water authority can sit on their hands, but their indifference is not a license to pollute, and their silence cannot be counted on as approval of anything.


Ditto. I imagine if it ever went to court, the judge would probably agree, that is unless he's been paid off too. :nono:

[Mike Leary]

Ditto. I imagine if it ever went to court, the judge would probably agree, that is unless he's been paid off too. :nono:

In light of the insanity over no backflow program, I would still be installing
backflow to a common code & have it tested every year. If all the contractors
in this market would do the same, every one would be free of liability should
a "incident" occur. You all know where the finger is going to be pointed.:cry:

[WalkGood]

What I am wondering, is what the Suffolk County irrigators think is going to CYA if a backflow event occurs, and the plumbing doesn't meet NYS DoH requirements? I suppose a water authority can sit on their hands, but their indifference is not a license to pollute, and their silence cannot be counted on as approval of anything.

::Badger mob cheers wildly::


Be careful on your soap box Boots.... with todays heavy rain you might get washed away.

[Wet_Boots]

::Badger mob cheers wildly::


Be careful on your soap box Boots.... with todays heavy rain you might get washed away.The Badgers are bailing!!
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N9QtA3AxRXYskM:http://www.2nirvana.com/lau/user_pix/badgerbadgerbadger.jpg

I still have to wonder how anyone, anywhere, would believe that they could be exempt from state Department of Health regulations. How is it to anyone's (contractor's or homeowner's) benefit to do work that violates state DoH regulations?