Ever have a customer "backcharge" you for service?

[Ramairfreak98ss]

I billed a customer on May 9th 2007 for mulching/weeding work at his house.

I originally quoted out $1500 something with tax to do a full job, IE: front/side/back yard trees, pool areas, edging around tree bases, weeding etc.

I quote out 15 yards with this job for $1500.

He states hes used 6 yards before, 1-2 years ago when he did it himself.

He doesnt want to spend $1500. So i said ok, ill put down 6 yards, weed preventive and do some weeding.

I quote out $500+ tax for 6 yards or
$650 plus tax for 8-9 yards

I get doing the work, and myself and one worker are weeding forever, after the initial quote, with lots of rain, the weeds were much worse then when quoted, my fault for not adjusting at time of service.

We weed most of the morning without going crazy like spraying small weeds, a few were missed honestly, small stuff or some under evergreen bushes etc.

I bill out 735.00 which is $650 because i had to already use 8 yards, plus $85 weeding fee, just a random number i felt was appropriate for the extra ~4 man hours me and my worker spent, a low amount i thought anyway.

$786.45 with tax, and the guy flips. He calls me back the next day, complaining how my worker was on his phone when i left to go get more mulch etc, yet the guy wasnt home 95% of the time.

Then he's ticked because i didnt edge all his front garden beds, wtf? thats not in the quote, but he expected it. He didnt like that there were lots of spots that were very thin on mulch either, well duh, i know we needed at least 10+ for the front yard only.

I know this guy too, i once worked for him as side help in 1999, he is one of 4 co-owners of a big construction company of new residential homes in NJ. To appease him, and in big hopes still of gaining 4 company employees residential lawn accounts of 2 acres each plus their mulching on the same street as well, i agree to come back in a couple days and do the extra work, free. He tells me, either way hes going to pay the bill but he isn't happy with the work and this could reflect future business, because he could recommend me to new customers of his that are buying houses, which i understand already.

I bring back my Bedshaper machine, cut out ~135ft worth of edges, some along his driveway hill which isnt easy, clean out all the edges, add another 2-3 yards of mulch in the garden by the street and house, now totaling 11~ yards, pull extra weeds, some new and a few that were missed that he was complaining about. Put down more Preen Plus by Woodace ferts. and i was done. I did this extra work the NEXT Afternoon.

This was done by the 2nd week in May, Early june rolls around and still no check, call him up leave a message. Nothing that week. July 1st i call him up again, talk to him, says oh, i thought you were comming back? I said, yeah i did, the next day, I edged, and weeded and added 3 yards of mulch that we spoke about the day prior, he says, OH, ok, well im going on vacation but ill be back in a week.

So July 16th, today, i get a check in the mail finally with the bill.


Written on it it says

1 Damaged sprinkler head - $100.00
Weeded bed twice
Outside contractor-2 days 16hrs $160.00
I dont know if thats one guy 8hrs a day x 2=16hrs or two guys in one day or whatever, What company does 16 manhours for $160.00? $10hr labor?

$260.00 additional cost
BACKCHARGED $185.00 of total

Total $700.55?

So how does $786.45-185.00=$700.55? :confused: :hammerhead:

Im going to make sure the check clears before i tear this guy a new one.

Pisses me off mostly because even if i did damage a sprinkerhead while mulching or edging, i can fix them in 10 minutes and for $6-10 cost, not $100 :nono:

And who ever weeds someones garden bed and has NO weeds ever re-popup? Is this my fault because weeds popped up in almost two months since the work was done?

All i can say is what a jkcass, ill add this to my bin for going to court in the fall when im not so busy if he decides to not pay.

HE NEVER said anything about any sprinkler damage or weeding from the work done on May 9th to the bill being paid on July 16th.:confused:

This backcharge crap might work in subcontracting for construction but its not gonna work for landscape work with a bill for Xx.xx amount of money.

[carcrz]

Never do work hoping for more work. Only do what is contracted & if they choose to do less than what you recommend, then it is their own fault. Just make sure your signed contract says exactly what you are going to do.

[greg1]

Welcome to the world of working for builders, while some of them are fair there are just as many that are scumbags. BIG SCUMBAGS, I speak from a quarter century of experience working for them. They work with contractors everyday and know just how to F you over! I'm sure your check will clear, and after that just move on and remember your lesson. I've worked for alot of builders in NJ, 50% of them i would take a bullet for! The other 50%, i would.........well.......you get the idea.

[jsaunders]

Am I reading this correctly - he only wants 6 yrds and then complains about it being thin and now you are adding more for free? He might have got '6' yrds(buckets) from his brother..... etc... who has a 2 yrd bucket...:rolleyes:
Don't do more work for free -in hopes to get more work. This guy wants to sh*t on you and you are taking it.

[lifetree]

Never do work hoping for more work. Only do what is contracted & if they choose to do less than what you recommend, then it is their own fault. Just make sure your signed contract says exactly what you are going to do.

Absolutely ... now you just need to follow-up in small claims court !!

[robtown]

if he is a builder that uses model homes you can always call the twp and see if he has a variance to use a residential lot as a sales office. None of them do because it usally takes 90 days to get and they need to make alot of alterations to the plan. Parking handicapp bathrooms and access to the model. plus what the fire marshall wants ....it is a pain ..
just pick up the phone on and call in a complaiint...do it towards the end of the week and so they cant open for the weekend.
someone takes $10 dollars from me i cost them a $100
good luck

[AGLA]

Never do work hoping for more work. Only do what is contracted & if they choose to do less than what you recommend, then it is their own fault. Just make sure your signed contract says exactly what you are going to do.

Truer words have never been spoken!

... and don't forget to add the line "anything not specifically mentioned in this contract is an extra and will be billed as such".

[Turf Professionals Inc.]

I would not cash the check though until he pays you the full amount. I do not know how it is there, but here in Florida, if you cash a check from a client, it means you are settled up. I would make him right a new one for the correct amount or take him to court

[Ramairfreak98ss]

I would not cash the check though until he pays you the full amount. I do not know how it is there, but here in Florida, if you cash a check from a client, it means you are settled up. I would make him right a new one for the correct amount or take him to court

Turf, you sure its that way? Im sure that in NJ, unless for some reason the client writes on the check, "paid in full" and its $400 instead of the $700 or so, yeah that can be legally binding. But accepting a check for a lesser a mount, for a contract, bill, etc, isn't an admission for payment in full. Hey what do i know, i should have been an attorney, seems all of us at one point must learn a lot of legal jargon to make it in any business sense of the world.

Trust me, in NJ it is 10x harder to try and collect the WHOLE bill than a portion of it. If i went into court, with NO payment, after this jerk send me $700 of it, then i stand a chance to loose even that amount if for some reason the judge doesn't agree to my favor. Ive been in small claims several times for all sorts of reasons pertaining to the business and failure to pay invoices. Ive seen all sorts of odd judgments where the judge simply doesnt want to hear the non-professionalism of some defendants so throws the whole thing out, even though the plaintiff has a good case. Its small claims, these judges arnt the heroes of the world in this court.

[WigginsLandscaping]

I too work with many builders. Some great the other no so great. I learned the hard way about the not so great ones. When I first started I want business so bad and wanted to work for these guys so bad that I bent over backwards to make these guys happy. What I learned was they really dont care whether you make a dime or not. They are interested in their money and their money alone. I thought it will all work out. Quantity will balance this job out. But it never did. On builders the good ones pay on time always. If you see this not happen even once you should consider dropping them. The other big thing about builders that you have to be aware of. When it comes to their personal property they really want it free. I know several that have built their own personal house and will try to get us little guys to give them the job "as a favor" for all the work they will give you. Beware of these guys. The good builders that I work with already know what something will cost and will either give you a budget/allowance to go by or wont even ask what something cost. They almost always have a good idea already. The rich stay rich for a reason. I can go on and on about builders. A good customer isnt a good customer if you arent making money off of them.

[kandklandscape]

take him to court, he will have to prove the sprinkler head was broke ie, photo! as far as the math there he needs to go back to kindie garden! he seems like a real waste of time to, most contractors are, and most pay you net 30, well there net 30 means net 300!

got a really good friend that we did work for 2 years ago, well i cant really complain much its my fault, but we did work for him for about 2 months, always paid, once we did a big job (20k) took him months to make payments, and then we did more work. well after the 1st of this year he called back and asked for us to do more work, well i said you stll owe from last year, he said well i will pay you today in full, being like 15k i said thats awesome begining of the year getting extra 15k sure. well we went back did the work, worked for 10 hours, waiting (not standing around) and still no check, now he owes us back to square 1! watch out for so called friends to.

family as well! they are the worst!

[lifetree]

I would not cash the check though until he pays you the full amount. I do not know how it is there, but here in Florida, if you cash a check from a client, it means you are settled up. I would make him right a new one for the correct amount or take him to court

Generally speaking, if you make a qualified endorsement on the check indicating that there may still be an outstanding balance, it will legally preserve whatever amount is in dispute.

[Ramairfreak98ss]

Generally speaking, if you make a qualified endorsement on the check indicating that there may still be an outstanding balance, it will legally preserve whatever amount is in dispute.

What would a qualified endorsement be? writing on their check, "Not yet paid in full"? lol im serious though.

[thefed]

ive been sitting here for a good 15 mins trying to figure out the math... i have no idea where this guy got those numbers! Sounds like a whack job

[Midwest Lawn Services]

Absolutely ... now you just need to follow-up in small claims court !!

Don't bother with small claims, it will take up more time and energy than its worth, and for what, to make a point? We get paid for services in this business and I don't know about you, but I would scrap this onw up as a lesson learned and stay away from PITAS!!!!!!:dizzy:

[Ramairfreak98ss]

Don't bother with small claims, it will take up more time and energy than its worth, and for what, to make a point? We get paid for services in this business and I don't know about you, but I would scrap this onw up as a lesson learned and stay away from PITAS!!!!!!:dizzy:

Midwest, if your really in the midwest US, you probably dont have these problems as often as us dirty jersians do over here. This state would kill itself off if you gave everyone a 9mm loaded with bullets!

I went to small claims in april 07 for a non paid lawn from last october 06. Ahole was this moron that just wouldnt agree on anything and couldnt keep his story straight for his life. Anyway, its $21 for a filing fee. His lawn cut was $35. Was it to prove a point? Yeah, because if anyone who didnt want to pay a bill didnt, then im loosing money, be it $50 or $5,000. They MUST PAY THE BILL. Im not a crediting agency, and cannot damage someones personal credit, but a bill is a bill and these customers cant take advantage of any lawn companies, me or my competitors. I know my local big LCOs dont joke around so i know they dont let this happen to them.

Im sure stuff happens all the time were not prepared for legally and mentally, but this isnt one of them. Of course i dont even feel the need to have to add into my contracts, any mention of "backcharging", personally in business, i feel its a bullsh1t tactic aside from being unhappy with the work performed to not pay bills.

Say my bill is for $1,000. Its paid/signed that work is to be performed for $1,000. Where is the clients documentation authorizing them to "bill" me $200? then for a backcharge? There isnt, its bogus, he probably has no receipts substantiating his charges nor was there any letter/email etc. as far as proof that the client tried to contact me in order to rectify the claimed "damage" in this situation. Im not going to loose $100 just for some $8 sprinkler head he says was broke, fawk that.

[HicksGroundMgt]

ram

i'm not sure i follow it might just be me worn out from the heat today. but if he hasn't paid you, make attempts to substantiate this in official writing ie certified mail and if he still refuses stick a lien on his house. he's a builder he knows how it works no pay, no play. he wont be able to do anything with his house as far as the rel estate market goes. can't sell it cant sign the deed over UNTIL YOU ARE PAID!

if the guy has paid you in partial and if its enough to cover your hard costs then move on and chock it up to a hard lesson learned. don't work for this guy anymore and warn any other lco's in your area not to work for him either. if you have paperwork backing you up that he didn't pay you what was due then its not slander, its evidence.

we had a millitary family who were officers movin to a 'hood that we do lots of grade work in and ask us to do a sod and install job once they got the pool in. no problem, they sign off on the plant list the sod quantity mulch and rock position. they say that they aren't happy with the finished product and taht it doesn't look like what they had pictured and for ust to redo it and i said no we don't have time spend on it. if you want to redo it then you'l have to wait or find someone else. they hold the final check for over two years for $2287 plus interest (make sure thats in every estimate and invoice). i put a lien on the house so i can't get screwedwhile this is all happening. last year it cost them over 6000 to pay us the balance, interest, their legal fees our legal fees lost time dealing with it and court costs. all while he's getting deployed. do i feel bad? nope!! not one bit!

[db682]

The whole small claims court thing sounds like alot of time and hassle for $85. I would deposit the check and as long as it clears learn from it and distance yourself from him, or there's always many forms of revenge. Be creative if you choose the later. Word of mouth can be destructive in the building industry, especially residential.

[Harley-D]

I realize the principle behind a customer not paying and getting him to pay.
My only point is that this is about less then $1000. Like they said, put a lien on the house and walk away. I have alot of friends that work for builders. And lately, the builders weren't paying because houses weren't selling. (Past 6 mo's) If there's a lien on a house that hasn't been sold yet, you can guarantee that somebody will be paid before long. It's hardball but don't be pushed around by some big builder.

I would never work for a builder. You'r waitin 6 mo's for money even when the market is good. They'll keep you busy workin but it's a long wait on that money.

[PatriotLandscape]

cash the check and small claims him with additional fees for your time and hassle plus interest one his previously unpaid balance. compound it weekly and jack up the charges.

The small claims issues are easy to deal with in court they take about 2 hours of your time. jack him for 500 on the small claims bill he'll know he shouldn't have done what he did and maybe he'll just pay the bill (the outsatanding balance that is). if he does you just don't show to court and the charges are dropped. If he doesn't and then doesn't show up to court you automatically win. and then put a lien on his house :) damn jackass I hate stingy builders.

[Ramairfreak98ss]

I would never work for a builder. You'r waitin 6 mo's for money even when the market is good. They'll keep you busy workin but it's a long wait on that money.

Thanks Harley, its his personal house though. And in NJ at least, where would i start by trying to process putting a lien on the property? Is this a federal process or does it vary state to state?

[carcrz]

I just found out that I can do the form online. I forget where, but do a search for NJ lien form.

[JimLewis]

I originally quoted out $1500 something with tax to do a full job, IE: front/side/back yard trees, pool areas, edging around tree bases, weeding etc.

I quote out 15 yards with this job for $1500.

He states hes used 6 yards before, 1-2 years ago when he did it himself.


That should have been your first warning. I NEVER let the customer dictate to me how much product I am going to use. I am the professional. I do this for a living. I do several of these kinds of jobs each week. I am much more familiar with how much product it takes to do any job at his property than he is, despite his "memory" of what he may have used in the past. I would have never gone down in the amount of product or in price. That was the first mistake.
He doesnt want to spend $1500.

That should have been your second warning. Right then and there I know I have a piker. A piker dicks around on price. A piker wants to tell you that he knows better how to do your job. A piker usually has a budget that is lower than what the job should really cost. When I start seeing signs like this, I usually run.....

So i said ok, ill put down 6 yards, weed preventive and do some weeding.

Interesting approach. I would have said, "Well, I am sorry. That's the way I'd do it. Perhaps you can find another landscape company who will do it for less. Here's my card. Give me a call if you change your mind." and I would have been off to the next estimate and forgot his name as I drove out the driveway.

I get doing the work, and myself and one worker are weeding forever, after the initial quote, with lots of rain, the weeds were much worse then when quoted, my fault for not adjusting at time of service.

That's a common mistake. We want the job and we're afraid that if we bring up a change in price we'll lose the job. But the truth is; it's better to lose a job that's not going to be very profitable. And if the customer is at all reasonable, they will understand the reason for the increase in price. You should have brought this up before you started work and agreed on a price increase. If he flipped out then, you would have lost nothing.

We weed most of the morning without going crazy like spraying small weeds, a few were missed honestly, small stuff or some under evergreen bushes etc.
Ok. So you were not real happy doing extra work for free and so you did it half assed. We've all done that before. Go on......:)

I bill out 735.00 which is $650 because i had to already use 8 yards, plus $85 weeding fee, just a random number i felt was appropriate for the extra ~4 man hours me and my worker spent, a low amount i thought anyway.

WHOA!!! Hold the horses. Ok. There's a good lesson a lot of people here could learn. NEVER increase the price you quoted a customer, unless you first get their approval. It doesn't matter why. You can't assume they will just understand why you increased the price. Yes, you were being more than fair. But you surprised him by giving him a total that was higher than what he agreed to. Justified or not, you shouldn't have done that without getting an okay. The customer should be crystal clear exactly how much he's going to be writing the check for BEFORE any work is done. It's just proper business etiquette.

$786.45 with tax, and the guy flips. He calls me back the next day, complaining how my worker was on his phone when i left to go get more mulch etc, yet the guy wasnt home 95% of the time. Well, that may be true. I am sure you think he's a great employee. But it may very well be true. But here's the thing; the customer really isn't mad about that. He's just mad because he told his wife it would be $650.00. Or he was broke and $650 was all he had. Regardless, he's not really pissed about the worker on the cell phone. The issue is; he's pissed about the unexpected price increase. But he's not saying so, in so many words.

Then he's ticked because i didnt edge all his front garden beds, wtf? thats not in the quote, but he expected it. He didnt like that there were lots of spots that were very thin on mulch either, well duh, i know we needed at least 10+ for the front yard only.

PIIIIIIIIII ker :)

I know this guy too, i once worked for him as side help in 1999, he is one of 4 co-owners of a big construction company of new residential homes in NJ.

Oh Snap!!!! He's a builder too??? And you knew that going in? Well, you get what you deserve then? Haha. Builders always expect way more service for way less than the going rate. And they expect you to DO IT NOW! They also expect you to throw in all sorts of extras for free. If someone hasn't explained this to you before, I'm sorry to have to burst your bubble. But I usually RUN from builders. Not even kidding. I turned down 2 just this week. One had a new development going in soon and we came highly recommended from his broker. I turned that guy down cold in 30 seconds. Another builder stopped me in a residential neighborhood today. I gave him about 2 minutes of my time before I booted him (politely, of course). No working for builders for this guy. I'm kinda quirky. But I have this weird insistence on actually being paid on time and on making a profit. I know. Weird.....:rolleyes:

To appease him, and in big hopes still of gaining 4 company employees residential lawn accounts of 2 acres each plus their mulching on the same street as well, i agree to come back in a couple days and do the extra work, free.

And the hook is in, fishermen!!! He's got you right where he wants you. And you can bet he's laughing about it with his drinking buddies tonight. We just like to give all sorts of crap away for free in the hopes of high-volume work don't we. Us dumb landscapers fall for that one every time! Whew hoo!!! Yee haw!

He tells me, either way hes going to pay the bill but he isn't happy with the work and this could reflect future business, because he could recommend me to new customers of his that are buying houses, which i understand already.

He just loves to keep that carrot just a FEW steps in front of you doesn't he. This is right out of the Builder's Handbook man. Didn't you ever read that? They are PLAYING YOU!!!!

I bring back my Bedshaper machine, cut out ~135ft worth of edges, some along his driveway hill which isnt easy, clean out all the edges, add another 2-3 yards of mulch in the garden by the street and house, now totaling 11~ yards, pull extra weeds, some new and a few that were missed that he was complaining about. Put down more Preen Plus by Woodace ferts. and i was done. I did this extra work the NEXT Afternoon.

I bet you did. And so did you get your carrot, like a good horsey?

This was done by the 2nd week in May, Early june rolls around and still no check, call him up leave a message. Nothing that week. July 1st i call him up again, talk to him, says oh, i thought you were comming back? I said, yeah i did, the next day, I edged, and weeded and added 3 yards of mulch that we spoke about the day prior, he says, OH, ok, well im going on vacation but ill be back in a week.

Here's a little tip; BUILDERS ALWAYS DO THIS. THEY ALMOST NEVER PAY ON TIME! And they will give you excuse after excuse after excuse as to why the check is being delayed. And just as soon as you begin to act too anxious to get paid, they bring up the carrot again - the promise of big volume business in the future.

So July 16th, today, i get a check in the mail finally with the bill.

STOP READING THIS AND GO DIRECTLY TO THE BANK AND CASH THAT FREAKIN' THING (If it's any good.)


Written on it it says

1 Damaged sprinkler head - $100.00
Weeded bed twice
Outside contractor-2 days 16hrs $160.00
I dont know if thats one guy 8hrs a day x 2=16hrs or two guys in one day or whatever, What company does 16 manhours for $160.00? $10hr labor?

$260.00 additional cost
BACKCHARGED $185.00 of total

Total $700.55?

So how does $786.45-185.00=$700.55? :confused: :hammerhead:

Im going to make sure the check clears before i tear this guy a new one.

Don't bother tearing him a new one. He knows what he does. He knows who he is. And all he's going to do is what he always does to people - turn it back around and blame you for something that wasn't your fault. It's an exercise in futility to even bother talking to him again. Just move on and count this as a major learning lesson. And thank your lucky stars he actually paid you - finally!

Pisses me off mostly because even if i did damage a sprinkerhead while mulching or edging, i can fix them in 10 minutes and for $6-10 cost, not $100

It doesn't even matter. This is just more distraction b.s. You didn't break anything. He is just adding crap in to mess with you and turn the tables and blame you again. And actually, this is one time where he's probably fairly accurate. We have a full-time irrigation technician. And for us to dispatch him for any job is $95 for the first hour and $68 each additional hour, plus materials. So if he actually DID hire an irrigation company to come fix that head, that price he's giving you is pretty right on. But I am telling you, he didn't. It's bull crap. If there was a broken head, do you really believe he wouldn't have been on the horn telling you about it that day? Trust me, he would have made you come out and fix it IMMEDIATELY! There was no broken head. He is bluffing and knows that you have no way of calling his bluff.


And who ever weeds someones garden bed and has NO weeds ever re-popup? Is this my fault because weeds popped up in almost two months since the work was done?

All i can say is what a jkcass, ill add this to my bin for going to court in the fall when im not so busy if he decides to not pay.

HE NEVER said anything about any sprinkler damage or weeding from the work done on May 9th to the bill being paid on July 16th.:confused:

This backcharge crap might work in subcontracting for construction but its not gonna work for landscape work with a bill for Xx.xx amount of money.

You made some serious mistakes in judgement this time. Fortunately, it was just a small loss. Count your blessings, learn from these mistakes, and just move on. Don't waste your time in court trying to sue some rich guy. It's not even worth your time. Use that time in more productive ways.

And next time you run into a builder don't let them do you like that. That's why I wear steel toe cowboy boots every day.... Just in case I run into a builder, I can give him a stiff kick in the jibblets and get back in my truck and go on with my day.

[mdlwn1]

Correct...if you accept partial payment......you're accepting "terms" in NJ

[mdlwn1]

He can hammer you if he wants to. I would get over it, do the job right...no matter what.....and don't put yourself in the same situation again. Some time down the road you will see what you did wrong.

[Waterscapes By Design]

you guys are all hating on builders.....Do you have the same problem with real estate people too? Especially the people who jumped on the whole "rehab houses for quick profit"?

Those people are the bottom of the bucket to me personally, they are the cheapest people I know of, more so than elderly retired people on a fixed income....

[Stillwater]

I don't hate anyone who gives me or offers me business. now if they dont pay that is another story

[JimLewis]

you guys are all hating on builders.....Do you have the same problem with real estate people too?

Yes, I do. That's why our company policy is 'we only work with residential homeowners.' We don't work for builders, commercial complexes, HOAs, Real Estate agents, property management companies, or anything other than an individual homeowner.

The result? We keep growing every year (2005= $600,000 in revenues, 2006 = $1mil, this year will be around $1.45 mil). And we always get paid the day a job is finished. Our accounts receivables is virtually zero. And we enjoy a higher profit margin that we could ever get doing work for those other entities.

I remember a time when I would take any job anyone would throw at me, like the last poster said. But back when I did work for those kinds of entities it was almost always a bad experience. In fact, it was really dragging us down because I was wasting so much time trying to please people who couldn't be pleased and then trying to chase down payments that were always very late. So it's nice to be in the position now where we can be more choosy.