Landscape Maintenance ?

[dallas05]

I'M DOWN IN THE DUMPS. WE TAKE CARE OF APPROX. 120 ACCOUNTS AND A WHOLE DAY OF DOT ROADSIDE WORK EVERY 2 WEEKS. I RUN (2) TWO MAN CREWS AND I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET THEM TO GET IT TOGETHER BUT EVERYTIME THEY START TO LEARN THE ROUTES,RUN THE MOWERS ETC... SOMEBODY QUITS. I HAD A GUY OVERSEEING THEM TO HELP WITH QUALITY CONTROL,FIND A JOB ON THE ROUTE THAT SOME HOW THEY CAN'T REMEMBER WHERE THEY ARE:confused: ETC... BUT I COULD'NT KEEP HIM OFF THE PHONE AND OUT OF THE TRUCK SO TO SAY THE LEAST WE TERMINATED THAT POSITION. BASICALLY JOBS ARE GETTING SKIPPED,PATIOS NOT GETTING BLOWN OFF ETC... loosing alot of customers lately I'M TIRED OF IT. I THINK I HAVE JUST ABOUT HAD MY FILL WITH MAINTENANCE IF THINGS DON'T CHANGE SOON!!!!! NOW FINALLY WHAT I AM GETTING TO IS I ALSO HAVE A (4) man install crew that are no problem at all and install is kinda where my heart is at anyhow. has anyone gone from maint. and install just to install. was it a mistake or was it a good move i need some thoughts here. any help please thanks!

[Tim Wright]

Another plus for installs is that is it not rain or non rain dependant. That is, even if the grass is not growing, you can work.

Tim

[B. L. Landscaping]

In my town there are two companys that do install only they have never had maintenance and we provide both services but same as you sick of all of the headaches of maintenance.

[dallas05]

In my town there are two companys that do install only they have never had maintenance and we provide both services but same as you sick of all of the headaches of maintenance.

i know it is a never ending headache with maint. installs usually go so smooth.

[greg1]

If your installations are steady then i would scale back on the maintenance end. Scale back but do not cut it out. A good position to be in is to maintain what you install, your kind of developing a closer family of clients. You will always have labor problems in a labor industry so try not to sweat that part of the biz. Your having growing pains and it's time to jump on a scale.

[Need a Little Trim]

Same here guys I just today had one grade job and sod install finished by eleven. I had two other small jobs that I used some of the leftover sod from the first job. I got all that done told the guys to go get 4 maintenance jobs done one of them decided to walk off the job because the heat was too much for him to take.
We are effin behind two days due to heavy downpours here and this guy walks off WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well, he is obviously fired and now looking for help again.

[dallas05]

If your installations are steady then i would scale back on the maintenance end. Scale back but do not cut it out. A good position to be in is to maintain what you install, your kind of developing a closer family of clients. You will always have labor problems in a labor industry so try not to sweat that part of the biz. Your having growing pains and it's time to jump on a scale.

good point! been doing some soulsearching on this and one thing is for sure is sometime this weekend my wife and i are going to type up a letter explaining to my noncontract maint. customers we are no longer doing seasonal work. give them the oppurtunity to join on a year round contract if not i will give references of companies that do seasonal maintenance but not installs(why feed your competition?). alot of companies in the area have gone that route.

[AGLA]

There are a lot of maintenance companies that are very profitable. In fact, there are huge national chains. It has less to do with maintenance vs. construction and much more to do with management that makes maintenance profitable.

Look at these big maintenance companies and see who runs them. They are not guys who started mowing at 11 and worked in the trenches. They are business guys who chose landscape maintenance as their media. They manage people and numbers.

Most landscape companies are started by guys who worked in the trenches and often continue to do so. Gaining equipment and accounts does not change who you are. It is not going to necessarilly turn you into a business man who can manage people with ease. Instead, it often increases overhead and spreads the owner's ability to manage thinner and thinner until he is reasonably ineffective.

Typically, the area that has the least problem is the area where the owner is present. If the owner is on the construction site, he is in fact a foreman rather than a manager. The other parts of the business do not function well in the absence of his presence. If the same owner went out with the mowing crew, chances are that the construction crew would be ineffective.

I did the exact same thing twenty years ago. I thought it was because I could not get good help. I thought I needed more services. I kept looking for what was keeping me down while always looking outward. Joe's Landscaping has this, this, and this and he is making great money.They do that, that, and that. So, you follow Joe's business model. But guess what, you are not Joe and neither was I.

Some guys can run multiple crews. Some guys can't. Maintenance is largely the selling of equiped labor. Profit depends on volume.Volume depends on production. Production depends on management. Good people managers thrive here and not so good ones die here.

Landscape construction sells materials and labor in the least. It sells a product when it is a well refined business. Profit is not as dependent on managing people. Guys who are not great people managers can thrive here especially if the can get to the point where they are selling landscapes more so than materials and labor. The overhead is considerably less as well.

It takes two distinctly different skill sets to run these two different services. A few guys have the ability to do both, but most either fit into one or the other. There is no shame in it unless you beat yourself to death by trying to continue to do what you will never be effective at.

[Smallaxe]

A friend of mine runs a large crew and I believe does very well. He enjoys installs and has done some very creative designs. He does however spend most of his time in the office, on the phone, in front of a computer dealing with everything he hates about business and very little doing what he likes about the business.
Hire a secretary to handle the organisation of jobs and do the hiring and firing. She tells you whats available, then go back to work with the guys you like.

[Tim Wright]

Very well said.

It is also very hard to transition from the field to being the manager, but sometimes this is the only way to get there if you don't have money to start as a manager.

The money - that is to say, money for payroll, business cushion, etc.

Tim

There are a lot of maintenance companies that are very profitable. In fact, there are huge national chains. It has less to do with maintenance vs. construction and much more to do with management that makes maintenance profitable.

Look at these big maintenance companies and see who runs them. They are not guys who started mowing at 11 and worked in the trenches. They are business guys who chose landscape maintenance as their media. They manage people and numbers.

Most landscape companies are started by guys who worked in the trenches and often continue to do so. Gaining equipment and accounts does not change who you are. It is not going to necessarilly turn you into a business man who can manage people with ease. Instead, it often increases overhead and spreads the owner's ability to manage thinner and thinner until he is reasonably ineffective.

Typically, the area that has the least problem is the area where the owner is present. If the owner is on the construction site, he is in fact a foreman rather than a manager. The other parts of the business do not function well in the absence of his presence. If the same owner went out with the mowing crew, chances are that the construction crew would be ineffective.

I did the exact same thing twenty years ago. I thought it was because I could not get good help. I thought I needed more services. I kept looking for what was keeping me down while always looking outward. Joe's Landscaping has this, this, and this and he is making great money.They do that, that, and that. So, you follow Joe's business model. But guess what, you are not Joe and neither was I.

Some guys can run multiple crews. Some guys can't. Maintenance is largely the selling of equiped labor. Profit depends on volume.Volume depends on production. Production depends on management. Good people managers thrive here and not so good ones die here.

Landscape construction sells materials and labor in the least. It sells a product when it is a well refined business. Profit is not as dependent on managing people. Guys who are not great people managers can thrive here especially if the can get to the point where they are selling landscapes more so than materials and labor. The overhead is considerably less as well.

It takes two distinctly different skill sets to run these two different services. A few guys have the ability to do both, but most either fit into one or the other. There is no shame in it unless you beat yourself to death by trying to continue to do what you will never be effective at.

[Tim Wright]

I don't think I would leave the managing part to the secretary, but hire a secretary to help the manager you hire.

Keep the money end for yourself so you don't have to worry about embezzlement.

Tim

A friend of mine runs a large crew and I believe does very well. He enjoys installs and has done some very creative designs. He does however spend most of his time in the office, on the phone, in front of a computer dealing with everything he hates about business and very little doing what he likes about the business.
Hire a secretary to handle the organisation of jobs and do the hiring and firing. She tells you whats available, then go back to work with the guys you like.

[AGLA]

I think there is another fantasy most of us had when we first started out. That is that you can hire managers to make up for your short comings in managing. The fact is that no one with the skills to manage a landscape company is itching to go work for a small company that is struggling with management issues.

You have to ask yourself how someone gets those skills. The answer is that they either ran a successful company or were part of a team that managed successfully. In either case, these guys can either get nice paying jobs for well established companies or can apply their skills to their own business. The prospect of reorganizing a company that is not thriving would be the last thing that they would find attractive.

It is more likely that they would hire you than to come and work for them. If you can't get good guys to come in and mow lawns for you, why would you expect a strong manager to come in and work for you? Even a manager has to feel like his boss deserves to be his boss.

Anyone want to go work for an 18 year old who inherited a pile of cash and wants to start a landscape company? He'll pay top dollar. Will you give up what you are doing for him? What if the guy is 25 and has been mowing for 5 years? How about if he is thirty and has a mowing crew and does some hardscape?

Imagine yourself as a well polished manager of a landscape company and a big chain just bought out the company and downsized staff. You are out the door. Are you going to work for one of those guys I described above? I don't think so.

[tthomass]

I do only construction and no mowing. I ran the #'s, over and over and over and over and there just wasn't any money in it compared to what I was already doing......patios, walls, trees, shrubs, sod, mulch, grading etc.

A transimssion blow out of a truck or need a new mower....POOF!, there goes a lot of the money made.

I have experience mowing from when I worked at TruGreen. I spent many a day with a weed eater on commercial properties and other stuff too but it just wasn't "me". I am much more hands on and too creative to not do construction and I like the idea of moving around doing different things. You?

So am I successful? I don't know. I've been full time for 14 months. I've grown a lot, bought a lot of toys and invested over and over back into the company paying myself almost nothing.

My problem falls in the 'good people' group. I've got a good guy but I'm not comfortable handing over a job to him as he is still learning (no prior experience, with me now for a year). My problem will be separating myself from the field. I know it has to happen sometime but finding the balance of good help, paying them and keeping money in the bank is the hardest thing I've come to. It will happen but takes time. If installs are what you really like doing, do it. Don't look back in 5yrs and go gah, what if or I wish etc.

If you make the switch will your guys stay? I would assume. Teach them, work with them and then you can begin to step back to a managing job. Go to the job, walk through the plan and hand it over without worry. That is the goal in the construction industry.

[cpel2004]

Well said AGLA. Running a successful maintenance business is about management, management is about systems, systems are about small building blocks that you continue to improve and build upon every hour of every day.

[Smallaxe]

[QUOTE=AGLA;1904068]I think there is another fantasy most of us had when we first started out. That is that you can hire managers to make up for your short comings in managing. The fact is that no one with the skills to manage a landscape company is itching to go work for a small company that is struggling with management issues.

I agree. I was thinking more of an ex-soccer mom with common sense. The idea of a college educated 'manager' doesn't impress me much. Having someone who thinks this might be fun from your circle of friends or aquaintences that can be trusted would be preferable.
She can organize the daily routine for the workers and check progress from each crew, decide who is regularily causing problems, interview new help and you decide if you like her recommendations.
Missing jobs and losing clients is a serious employee problem. One communication with her condenses a big headache into a sensible consultation.
Just a thought, IMHO

[Turfdude]

As your business gfrows you have but 2 choices:
1. Work IN your business
2. Work ON your business.

Those who can & do attain #2 Will be more successful... I'm trying to get there... we have 5 crews, I enjoy the field work, but by being in the field, I have less time to manage & sell more profitable work... I haven't figured it all out yet, but I am setting goals & looking ahead. BTW, I sarted my company legitimately in 1988, did it f/t thru college prior to that for 4 years as well.

[drmiller100]

AGLA has some good comments, but I disagree with a few points.
The landscape install business is project based. Every one is a little different. You can make a recipe to solve issues, but there si some variation in how you apply the recipes. Therefore, it takes a slightly different type of employee.
For sure, it takes a very different sales technique. For the sales, you are selling a dream of a capital improvements to real property. Do a nice job, and you increase the property values much more then the money spent.

On the other hand, maintenance is just that, maintenance. Every week is the same, and each yard is fundamentally the same. The devil is in the efficiencies, as customers want a minimum service level at a maximum price. Therefore, you can have a different type of employee. Sales is a numbers game. Pretty easy to get a shot at mowing the yard, and whether you keep them depends on whether you keep minimal service levels.

[AGLA]

I don't know how that differs.

All that I am saying is that if someone is to net $200k doing maintenance, they will neet to do it by managing a lot of help. There are many ways to net $200k doing installs. Some ways include managing a lot of help, but there are lots of opportunities to net a great deal of money without managing a great deal of help. I know that one company that I worked for grossed over 1.5m with only a dozen or so workers in peak season (5 or six year 'round).

My point is not that one business is better than the other or easier than the other. It is that if your ability to manage help is limited to a small amount of people, which is the case with most of us, then it makes more sense to manage them on projects that not only has revenue from their hours, but has revenue from sales of more product. That product can be simple bulk plantings on commercial installs or custom crafted stonework for two examples on opposite ends of skill sets.

Think of it as having the opportunity to fill a shopping cart one time for free. Does it make sense to get a twelve pack of paper towels and 24 pack of toilet paper to fill the cart or head to the jewelry and electronics section and get lots of little expensive stuff?

Well, if you can only really manage 5 guys that is your grocery cart. Five guys with mowers can only net so much. The same 5 guys can stick in a lot of 2 gallon shrub grossing labor rates and a markup on the plants. Five well trained guys can put up a lot of stone wall at $75 a face foot. The next question is what market can you get your grocery cart into and how well can you fill it up.

PS. What customer wants minimum service at a maximum price? I know you meant it the other way.