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AWJ Services
07-24-2007, 09:50 PM
I had some extra time and some pallets of blocks too check my machines lifting ability.

Thats about 6500 pounds in the picture.

I put over 7000 pounds and it did not want too lift it very far off the ground.
It was hydraulic limited.

They list the lift arm breakout at 7400.
It appears to be pretty much dead on.

The tipping load is 6000 and it is very tipping with over 6000 pounds.:dizzy:

I move 2 pallets of blocks around quite often but the machine is very light on the rear.

P.Services
07-24-2007, 09:52 PM
thats a 150 right?

AWJ Services
07-24-2007, 10:04 PM
thats a 150 right?


TL 140.

They have strong hyd.

RockSet N' Grade
07-24-2007, 10:10 PM
I really miss my Takahoochi tracked machine. It had quite a bit of power for sure, but the one thing I really liked was the roll up door vs. the swing out door. That roll up is really magic when you have to jump in and out all day long verses not having your bucket all the way down exactly right or bucket is on a bit of a hill and you have to readjust your readjustment just to get out of the darn thing.....

crab
07-24-2007, 10:14 PM
awj,I'm so sorry ,again you should have bought a Deere you would be able to see out the back to!

AWJ Services
07-24-2007, 10:23 PM
awj,I'm so sorry ,again you should have bought a Deere you would be able to see out the back to!

I actually demoed a deere and Takeuchi at the same time.

I purchase the Takeuchi.

You could not pour me into a Deere.

The Takeuchi beats the pants off the Deere when it comes too digging in this hard clay here.

Plus I can drive mine with one hand and can start it with the door up.:drinkup:

AWJ Services
07-24-2007, 10:29 PM
I really miss my Takahoochi tracked machine. It had quite a bit of power for sure, but the one thing I really liked was the roll up door vs. the swing out door. That roll up is really magic when you have to jump in and out all day long verses not having your bucket all the way down exactly right or bucket is on a bit of a hill and you have to readjust your readjustment just to get out of the darn thing.....

The door, pilots and the cab size really sold me on it.
I am not a petite person so the cab is a plus.
The Deer cab was so small.
The visibilty out back on the Takeuchi was better than the Deere machine for me because I could not turn around in the cab and drive like I can with the Takeuchi.

Plus with a Deere you cannot operate the machine with the door up.:dizzy:

crab
07-24-2007, 10:47 PM
:laugh: :laugh: first of all that was a joke Ive run you're machine ,very nice almost bought one,however i run mine with the door open[little wiring trick],and pilot control's are apples to oranges ,cab is larger but the machine sits much higher ,big downer,you must be big man man cause I'm 6,1 240 and I'm very comfortable in the cab,well any way just kidding about one being better,i was just joking about you're less than adequate lifting capacity.

AWJ Services
07-24-2007, 11:39 PM
No hard feelings.
I use my machine for grading and land clearing.
Lifting is more than adequate for a 2000 pound roc machine.:)

I will agree the Deere is a beast when lifting is the needed task.

I will take some pics of the area that I worked in at this job.
I hear people complain about the Takeuchi size often but it very rarely is a hindarance.

On a serious note what is the most weight your Deere will lift off the ground.
Just curious.
7000 pounds is alot of weight too me.
I am just curious how much the boom geometry helps on the Deere/New Holland machines.

The one I demoed would lift a ton but coming off the ground it would have a hard time with full buckest of soil.
It was like the boom had too pass a certain point before it would really get strong.

waltero
07-24-2007, 11:43 PM
That is a good idea! I will have to try that out to see what my machine is capable of lifting.

AWJ Services
07-24-2007, 11:51 PM
With pallets of blocks or paver sit makes it easy too test.

Tigerotor77W
07-25-2007, 12:33 AM
I had some extra time and some pallets of blocks too check my machines lifting ability.

Thats about 6500 pounds in the picture.

I put over 7000 pounds and it did not want too lift it very far off the ground.
It was hydraulic limited.

They list the lift arm breakout at 7400.
It appears to be pretty much dead on.

The tipping load is 6000 and it is very tipping with over 6000 pounds. :dizzy:

Two thoughts:

- breakout force is measured from a bucket tip
- tipping load is also measured in reference to a bucket (so if you carried lead or gold in it, it'd tip at a certain weight in the bucket. It's also measured from the point when the load is farthest from the machine, so any machine will be able to lift more than its tipping load at ground level if it has enough hydraulics.

AWJ Services
07-25-2007, 06:51 AM
Two thoughts:

- breakout force is measured from a bucket tip
- tipping load is also measured in reference to a bucket (so if you carried lead or gold in it, it'd tip at a certain weight in the bucket. It's also measured from the point when the load is farthest from the machine, so any machine will be able to lift more than its tipping load at ground level if it has enough hydraulics.

Good info.

I used forks of course and went off the adv shipping weight of the pallets.
I always wondered how much my machine would lift so I guess I know now.:)
At the bucket tip I doubt my machine would pick up it's adv lift arm breakout force of 7400 pounds.

Construct'O
07-25-2007, 10:05 AM
I thought breakout force had more to do when you curl the bucket with the two small cyclinder on the front and the lifting is the boom,or is it the combination of the two at the same time.

My feeling is the breakout with the bucket on and digging in the dirt curling the bucket after your in the dirt is the breakout.Right?

Altho curling the bucket or forks will lift,just not to much degree????? MY thought anyway.

cat2
07-25-2007, 12:03 PM
Since we are on the subject, would a bobcat s-185 with out counterweight out lift a jd 317 with out counter weights:weightlifter:

ksss
07-25-2007, 05:32 PM
Tigerotor can explain the exact way the breakout is supposed to be measured it was discussed at length a year or so ago. I think some use the lift arms in combination with curl to achieve their numbers though. Deere comes to mind. I cant explain it all hopefully Tigerotor will chime in.

AWJ Services
07-25-2007, 07:58 PM
I thought breakout force had more to do when you curl the bucket with the two small cylinder on the front and the lifting is the boom,or is it the combination of the two at the same time.

Takeuchi lists there breakout for both the boom cylinders and the bucket curl cylinders separately.

My experiment was too supply real world data.
I lifted the blocks with forks which is what we use too lift the percentage of time.
The factory specs are close too what I acheived.
But having a Deere machine side by side with my Takeuchi I was able too test the difference.
What I found was the Deere was not equal too my Takeuchi.

philsbs
07-25-2007, 10:33 PM
Were you comparing the TL140 to the CT332 ?

Tigerotor77W
07-26-2007, 02:51 AM
At the bucket tip I doubt my machine would pick up it's adv lift arm breakout force of 7400 pounds.

Er, I should clarify my statement -- breakout force is measured with the bucket on the ground, four inches back from the cutting edge of the bucket. Tipping load is measured at the lift arm height where the hinge pin is farthest forward.

I was going to say that lift force and lift breakout force aren't the same thing, but the more I think of it, the more similar they are. Where breakout force for the lift arms (i.e. using only the lift cylinders, NOT the bucket) is again measured four inches back from the cutting edge, lift force isn't specificially defined, I don't think -- it might just be how much weight the machine can lift (in a specified bucket). So if a lift force (not lift breakout) is given, a machine should theoretically be able to lift that much... somehow... in some attachment. Construct'O, you're on the right path... I'll address this and

KSSS can get his wish about me writing more, but this week is going to be a bit hectic -- so I won't get a chance to write a long reply for a little bit.

cat2: er, I doubt it. The S185 isn't known to be the most powerful lifter. That being said, the 317 is really a redesign of the Deere 240 -- so if the 240 in its current form can lift 1,750 pounds, perhaps it's near the upper limit of its performance. It sounds like you have a test to run... :D

AWJ Services
07-26-2007, 08:25 AM
Were you comparing the TL140 to the CT332 ?

I compared the Deere machine which was the same price as the Takeuchi.
It was the smaller CTL.
Here they do not sale the big deere against the TL140 because of the price difference.
The CT 332 is sold against the TL150.
It is probally not fair too compare the 2 but they are the same price range.
The CT332 is so much more expensive than the TL140 it was not in my price range.
The TL140 can be purchased here for 43k with cab.

dozerman21
07-26-2007, 09:09 AM
I compared the Deere machine which was the same price as the Takeuchi.
It was the smaller CTL.
Here they do not sale the big deere against the TL140 because of the price difference.
The CT 332 is sold against the TL150.
It is probally not fair too compare the 2 but they are the same price range.
The CT332 is so much more expensive than the TL140 it was not in my price range.
The TL140 can be purchased here for 43k with cab.

Maybe in your area they do compare the closest in price, but the CT322 and TL140 are two different size machines. The TL140 is 1,500lbs. heavier, and the CT322 specs much closer to a TL130. The CT332 and TL150 are pretty similar in size. The TL150 was 6K more here last year.

Not taking anything away from what the Takeuchis can lift, but a TL140 should lift more. I think the pallet idea is a good way to measure lifting ability. If I come across some anytime soon, I'll put the forks on and see how my CT332 does. I've lifted some pretty heavy things, but haven't had any way to check the weight.

AWJ Services
07-26-2007, 09:30 AM
but the CT322 and TL140 are two different size machines.

I agree.

I have expressed my opinion on how machines should be compared and with the differences in lift arm configurations,machine weight and roc how is one supposed too fairly compare any 2 machines.
The CT 322 has a higher ROC than the TL140 but the TL140 is heavier.
So do we use machine weight or ROC too fairly compare .

I use the price of the machine too compare.
If Takeuchi can give me more machine for less money than why should I use another manufacturers higher priced machine for comparison.
The TL 150 is in the low 50K range with cab here.
My dealer here is the largest Takeuchi dealer in the states and my salesman is the number one salesman in the states 3 years running.


Not taking anything away from what the Takeuchis can lift, but a TL140 should lift more.

Actually physics dictates that the Deere has an advantage in lifting ability because the lift arm geometry puts the lifting center of gravity so far back.

dozerman21
07-26-2007, 04:30 PM
The prices that you are giving are much different that what they are selling for here. Maybe since your dealer is big, they can offer cheaper rates if they're constantly moving them. CT322 are the same as a TL130 in price, TL140's are even with CT332's, and TL150's are 6K more the same options. We have several Deere dealers and one Takeuchi, so maybe there is more bargaining. Takeuchi excavators aren't very common either.

Like a dozer, backhoe, excavator, skid/CTL, whatever, I base comparisons starting with weight, then use specs and real world performance to see which ones carries it's weight best. Price is a big consideration which is probably one reasons why there isn't many Takeuchis around, especially compared to Deere, Cat, and Bobcat CTL's. You wouldn't be able to buy them here for those prices.

ksss
07-26-2007, 05:59 PM
Let me provide an educational segment on TK's pricing structure which is total BS. The large dealers like the one that AWJ uses gets a substantial price break over lower volume dealers. I priced my 153 from a dealer in Canada very large dealer and could have saved 8K over buying local. TK gives the dealer the price break not the customer. Unlike OEMs like CASE, the more CASE iron I have the better the discounting. TK discounts the dealer so if I don't live next to a large volume dealer, I get to pay more money. Doesn't matter how many TK you have or have owned. Your dealer is big you can get a better deal. Your dealer small and you get jammed. I made a very big issue over this with the dealer and TK. Again, Total BS. The end of the day I paid 8K more than someone like AWJ would pay for the same machine.

Fieldman12
07-26-2007, 06:17 PM
Ouch an $8,000.00 dollar difference. I would tell them to keep it. They may be the best machine in the world but I bet or at least around here when you go to get rid of it the machine will not move as quickly as a more popular brand. See that is something I noticed some of these less known brands want just as much if not more than a more popular brand. Now I know that has nothing to do with performance but I feel most machines especially these days are not too far off base. To me if your not as well known then you need to be cheaper on price and offer excellent support to get your product out there. That has been one thing we alwasy noticed that the more popular brands usually try there hardest tp keep ya coming back and offer you an incentive to keep buying more of there product just as you said Case does. To be honest that is how it should be.

Fieldman12
07-26-2007, 06:19 PM
By the way that is a sharp Takeuchi machine. I would like to try one some day.

AWJ Services
07-26-2007, 06:31 PM
The large dealers like the one that AWJ uses gets a substantial price break over lower volume dealers.

I actually called 5 different delers in the neighboring states and all the prices down here are basically the same.
The only additional discount Takeuchi gives is if you are selling in your territory.

That is unusual how the prices are so different up there.


I base comparisons starting with weight, then use specs and real world performance to see which ones carries it's weight best.

It makes more sense than using ROC too base performance.

cat2
07-26-2007, 10:18 PM
Er, I should clarify my statement -- breakout force is measured with the bucket on the ground, four inches back from the cutting edge of the bucket. Tipping load is measured at the lift arm height where the hinge pin is farthest forward.

I was going to say that lift force and lift breakout force aren't the same thing, but the more I think of it, the more similar they are. Where breakout force for the lift arms (i.e. using only the lift cylinders, NOT the bucket) is again measured four inches back from the cutting edge, lift force isn't specificially defined, I don't think -- it might just be how much weight the machine can lift (in a specified bucket). So if a lift force (not lift breakout) is given, a machine should theoretically be able to lift that much... somehow... in some attachment. Construct'O, you're on the right path... I'll address this and

KSSS can get his wish about me writing more, but this week is going to be a bit hectic -- so I won't get a chance to write a long reply for a little bit.

cat2: er, I doubt it. The S185 isn't known to be the most powerful lifter. That being said, the 317 is really a redesign of the Deere 240 -- so if the 240 in its current form can lift 1,750 pounds, perhaps it's near the upper limit of its performance. It sounds like you have a test to run... :D


Doesn't the s-185 have a higher tipping load?

ksss
07-26-2007, 11:01 PM
I priced a lot of different dealers but at the end of the day most would not sell in someone elses area. The Canadian company would thats how I got the price. QPS also priced a rental company which sells TK and they were considerably cheaper than his local TK dealer. It is a bogus deal. To me the break should go to the company that is making the purchase.

As far as TK and there status as an established OEM. They are well established in compact equipment. The resale on TK used equipment is better than most anything else in its market.

As far as them keeping the machine and walking on the deal, it was really not an option although I seriously looked at a CAT 305C. I am over it now, the 8K is dead and gone. The 153 more than pays its way.

Tigerotor77W
07-27-2007, 12:15 AM
Doesn't the s-185 have a higher tipping load?

Yes -- but there's two factors at play here: one is whether a manufacturer must report tipping load accurately. If a machine can lift 1,500 pounds without tipping, that machine will look really great in a 1,000 pound market, no? If the 317 can actually lift (say on forks) 4,000 pounds, making its tipping load 2,000 pounds (as rated by SAE standards), then putting it in the 1,700-2,201 pound ROC size class would make it look like an exceptionally strong 1,700 pound machine.

Secondly, the Deere lift path achieves maximum reach at maximum lift height. If you were to compare the reach of any Deere to a Bobcat, Cat, or Case vertical-lift model, you'd find that the latter brands have far more reach at truck bed height. So for practical purposes -- unloading sod, carrying pallets -- the Deere doesn't have as much reach and therefore is perceived to have more tipping load.

I suppose a way to really see which machine lifts the best is to find the point where the lift arms get maximum reach and load up the machine until it tips (chained down, so it wouldn't tip all the way, of course), but that brings serious safety concerns into mind... not to mention that it's not necessarily going to prove anything.

AWJ Services
07-27-2007, 07:02 AM
Most guys just do not need too take the max there machine will lift and take it too the top of there lift range.
The ROC can be confusing because of this.
Most only need too be able too remove stuff from a semi flatbed.
I unload stone from semi flatbeds on many occasions.
Mine with the ROC of a touch over 2000 does fine on pallets around 3000 pounds.
My machine is big enough(weight wise) that it should lift more.
Takeuchi (with it's very simple boom ) sacrificed lift ability for fully raised forward dumping distance.
It rivals anything on the market in it's size.

Thanks Tigerotor for your input .

cat2
07-27-2007, 11:01 AM
Yes -- but there's two factors at play here: one is whether a manufacturer must report tipping load accurately. If a machine can lift 1,500 pounds without tipping, that machine will look really great in a 1,000 pound market, no? If the 317 can actually lift (say on forks) 4,000 pounds, making its tipping load 2,000 pounds (as rated by SAE standards), then putting it in the 1,700-2,201 pound ROC size class would make it look like an exceptionally strong 1,700 pound machine.

Secondly, the Deere lift path achieves maximum reach at maximum lift height. If you were to compare the reach of any Deere to a Bobcat, Cat, or Case vertical-lift model, you'd find that the latter brands have far more reach at truck bed height. So for practical purposes -- unloading sod, carrying pallets -- the Deere doesn't have as much reach and therefore is perceived to have more tipping load.

I suppose a way to really see which machine lifts the best is to find the point where the lift arms get maximum reach and load up the machine until it tips (chained down, so it wouldn't tip all the way, of course), but that brings serious safety concerns into mind... not to mention that it's not necessarily going to prove anything.



You made very good points there.:)

crab
07-30-2007, 10:27 PM
tiger you're high!everyone underrates there machine's by 10 or 15%,so they don't get sued,and by the way you're silly,case maybe with the loading,but cat,:laugh: :laugh: uh not last time i checked,sorry shI3455T TALKER.

RockSet N' Grade
07-31-2007, 07:36 PM
I've stayed out of this thread 'cause I'm not sure about lifting capacities of sod, pallets of rock or such. Now, if you would have talked about lifting capacities with pallets of beer.......then you have peaked my interest.......