RB weather monitor

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

I'm going to reserve judgement for now and just post pics and respond to queries. I suspect my thoughts will be clear. We installed this at the Arboretum sa part of a volunteer landscape irrigation water wise project.

[Mike Leary]

Does someone make that for Rain-Bird?.. .looks kinna cheapo. Short
the common?

[Mike Leary]

Does someone make that for Rain-Bird?.. .looks kinna cheapo. Short
the common?

I could not find it on their site, what is it exactly called? Sharper pic of unit
please?:)

[smoore]

Mike,

Rain Bird partnered with Irrisoft, a Campbell Scientific company on this product. The ET Manager has proven to be a very effective water manager. For example, a Camden Property in Houston has saved over $26,000.00 and 5.9 Million gallons of water, a 43% reduction in water use. See http://www.waterlogic-texas.com/

Also the South Centre Mall in Calgary reduced water use 42.96% or 986,340 gallons saving of $5088.00 http://www.exactet.ca/index.asp

There are many other examples.

It is very impressive to see the resources Rain Bird offers with the ET Manager. http://www.rainbird.com/landscape/products/controllers/etmanager.htm

The ET Manager receives hourly weather data from local precision Campbell Scientific weather stations. It adapts to any standard sprinkler controller.

[Mike Leary]

Thanxs Smoore, I believe Campbell is the same company supplying Rain
Master too, I'll go look at it..so it IS part of a central system, not for stand-
alone use?:) o.k., I just re-read your post..it just shorts the common?
Just looked at the site..I've always been bothered by the term, "set it and forget it."

[smoore]

Mike,

Unfortunately to many controllers are set and forgotten. We do have projects that have been set and not changed for several years with significant water savings with landscapes looking great all year.

One of the controller interface options is a common interrupt. Typically a controller is programmed to water every day and the ET Manager determines the right day to water. It manages the frequency of watering based on Managed Allowed Depletion. For example in Houston properties are getting watered 50 to 60 days a year. In Utah, 40 to 50. In New England only 12 to 20 days.

The ET Manager supports two valve groups by using two commons to control turf and shrubs separately. Another useful tool is the system logs, it keeps a record of watering history.

Where are you located and what type of work do you do?

[DIA]

Mike - I was a part of this irrigation installation. (And I do not work for RainBird) Since both time and materials were donated, we were very happy to have RainBird and WaterLogic (ET signal provider) help out. The top photo shows the ET Manager. This piece of equipment receives real time ET data on an hourly basis. It "piggybacks" onto virtually any existing controller. The other photos simply show the tipping rain gauge that measures individual site rainfall in 100ths of a inch. Yeah, I know its plastic, but it seems to work great and requires very little maintenance (if any). We should have the entire system up and running next week. I'll be glad to post how everything works out. So far, we are all pleased.

[Mike Leary]

Thank you DIA for the reply & what you're doing down there..will we be able
to look at that site to see how things are going ? Or will you post & keep us
up on what looks like a cool idea. We don't trust the old fart (what's his name
"Flame-co") to give us complete information as he has ulterior motives about
moving towards the Pacific N.W. As I posted to Flame-co, a sharper pic would be nice.:)

[smoore]

Glad to hear it. Please let me know if we can help

[Mike Leary]

Where are you located and what type of work do you do?

Er,umm..I'll let this post calm down before I defend myself..welcome to the
forum!:)

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Thank you DIA for the reply & what you're doing down there..will we be able
to look at that site to see how things are going ? Or will you post & keep us
up on what looks like a cool idea. We don't trust the old fart (what's his name
"Flame-co") to give us complete information as he has ulterior motives about
moving towards the Pacific N.W. As I posted to Flame-co, a sharper pic would be nice.:)

GRIPE GRIPE GRIPE I'll get a better pic. You are as bad as my buddy Larry. I may move to "DA PENINSULA" for no other reason but to annoy you.

[Mike Leary]

GRIPE GRIPE GRIPE .

Just trying to keep up the high standards set by this forum before I even
got here..blame Boots! Good work, Peter.:)

[Wet_Boots]

"Gripe Gripe Gripe, the boys are marching."

[Mike Leary]

"Gripe Gripe Gripe, the boys are marching."

To Suffolk, boys, the invasion has begun, shoulder your RPs & DCVAs, &
your solid swing joints.

[Kiril]

The ET Manager has proven to be a very effective water manager. For example, a Camden Property in Houston has saved over $26,000.00 and 5.9 Million gallons of water, a 43% reduction in water use. See http://www.waterlogic-texas.com/

Also the South Centre Mall in Calgary reduced water use 42.96% or 986,340 gallons saving of $5088.00 http://www.exactet.ca/index.asp

There are many other examples.

Personally I think this speaks more to the ineptitude of landscape water managers than it does to the effectiveness of the controller.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Now that I've had time to mull over the ET manager I'm ready to give my thesis. The simplest way to describe the ETM (ET manager) is that it is a highly accurate Rain/freeze sensor using very current info.(gets hourly updates) It is a break in the common when it has determined watering is not necessary. For separating bed and lawn zones a second common is needed and that has to be considered in the installation. It does not establish or adjust run times for each zone. The responsibility of setting the clock for run times and multi cycling rests with the irrigation manager. One of the shortcomings of the basic r/f sensor we are all familiar with is that if it is set at 1/4" it is not going to recognize a 1-2" rain. With the on-site rain gauge the ETM will recognize and account for the torrential rains as well as the light rains. It can also account for wind speed by shutting it down and radiation. It is a tool for a knowledgeable water manager to more accurately use his irrigation system. I agree with Kiril that the massive water savings being reported was as much the ineptitude of the irrigation manager as the success of the ETM. The cost does not make it something to use on medium to small commercial/residential. It may be more money than I want to spend but i'm thinking of adding it to my WM smartline controller in which I have a monitor attached. Only to compare the two as irrigation tools. I like that the WM smartline adjusts run times and multi-cycles automatically based on the info I put in. Plus it doesn't require a subscription fee. The Irritrol ET manager seems to be a combination of both the WM and the RB ET manager without the onsite rain gauge unless they have one and I'm not aware of it. The RB ETM gets hourly up to date info and I believe the Irritrol gets info from the previous day once every 24 hours.

Did I miss any thing?

[DIA]

FIMCO - The RainBird ET Manager receives a provider signal every hour based on real time solar radiation, wind, humidity, temperature (ET). The rain gauge provides actual site data for measured rainfall. I believe the WM unit only receives a real time temperature signal. All other weather input data for ET is historical. It has a rain sensor that only provides a go/no go signal. The Irritrol and the Toro models (they are the same) use real time weather data like the RB unit but only receive a signal once a day. Irritrol/Toro advise to add a standard go/no go rain sensor. The Irritrol/Toro models do actually adjust the programming of the clock. Unfortunately, this seems to maintain a uniform soil moisture all the time and doesn't allow drying out periods to encourage maximum root zone growth. I'm not sure that ANY of the ET controllers on the market are perfect. Even the worst one is probably better than any homeowner doing a manual adjust. The biggest problem I see is that very few (including water managers) take the time to figure out what setting their controllers in minutes equals to in gallons and precip. rate. At least ET controllers remove some of the guess work.

[Kiril]

IMHO, hourly ET updates in typical residential/commercial landscapes is silly. It is only when you get into large scale mission critical turf (eg. golf & sports) is when you might need hourly updates, but even then only in limited situations. Note, data should still be collected every hour (minimum), but daily updates to field controllers I think are more than sufficient. Naturally there is a need for some on-site data collection (wind, rain, etc..) and the more on-site data you can feed into the ET equation the more accurate your water predictions will be.

ET control is like any other controller, except now it is even more important that you have high quality data or your watering schedules are going to be way off. I suspect that many controllers/managers will/are misused due to wild guesses at user supplied information

I also think people would be surprised at how consistent historical data is. Yes, there are some fluctuations, but overall it is generally quite predictable in terms of ET, especially given the very general "close enough" approach most all the ET controllers on the market use.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

This is a tool for a "real" water manager. Having an ET controller at my house that uses historical as opposed to real time has some disadvantages. The most frustrating aspect is the inability to measure actual on site rainfall. Since Dallas has a lot of wind not watering when the wind exceeds 10mph would be nice. That can be avoided to a great degree by watering between 2-5am when wind is at its lowest average speed. It seems to me the ultimate ET system could be achieved by combining the ET manager with a WM smartline clock. The clock would give you run/soak and increase and decrease run times based on the input data of precipitation rates, soil type, slope, plant types, and historical ET from your zip code. The ET manager would add real time info. Since the common runs through the ET manager run times and days would have to be synchronized. The rain sensor on the smartline monitor would need to be disabled. I'm sure there is some other issues that need to be dealt with. A lot of cost for what may be a marginal difference. Certainly not worth the expense on a small property but on a large property or athletic field situation could make a big difference. Mixing the best of each manufacturer is sort of a game with me. Sort of like putting WM brass nozzles on 1804 sam/prs.

[Mike Leary]

Mixing the best of each manufacturer is sort of a game with me. Sort of like putting WM brass nozzles on 1804 sam/prs.

Same game I played..& Hank does, too. I'm sure that's a typo there, Peter,
you must have meant "1806sam/prs".:) Your points about "site specific" are
well taken & the same quandry Hank & I were talking about the other day.
We are a market of "micro climates" where it could be pouring in one area,
& a mile away, not. Same with wind. Roughly, how pricey is the Rain-Bird
manager?

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

My JDL catalog doesn't list a price for it says to call. (For some reason 700.00 comes to mind) The company providing the service was www.WaterLogic-Texas.com
The yearly billing is based on the level of service desired. Need to look into that some more. Just got back from my bike ride and thought on this concept the whole time. The WM smartline would act as an active water manager making decisions based on ET science and the ET manager would provide real time data and with the rain guage eliminate some of the micro-climate issues.

[Mike Leary]

I just looked at the WaterLogic site, interesting, will appreciate comments as
it gets up & running. I'm still looking at the Davis weather station. All of this stuff is pricey & a hard sell, even for us! The Davis weather attachment is called "WeatherLink" for irrigation control:) www.davisnet.com

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

One slight problem with the Arboretum as a test lab is that they don't pay for their water, City of Dallas does, they are clueless to their actual water usage and I'm not sure they care, YET, and since this is on one timer only it will be hard to gauge savings. The person to find on this job is the city auditor and sell the savings to him, then remove the arboretum people from the equation. (Am I a troublemaker or what:) ) I had a davis weather station at my house and really enjoyed it but a hail storm destroyed it and haven't replaced it.

[Kiril]

I haven't had a chance to closely review all the ET control devices on the market, but from what I have seen, this one pretty much covers it all if you fork out for the subscription.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=1906538&postcount=3

Link to 8MB pdf manual

http://www.weathertrak.com/pdfs/manuals/ET_Pro2_Owners_Manual.pdf

[Kiril]

The CalSense ET2000e (ftp://Docs:Calsense@ftp.calsense.com/ET2000e%20Controller/ET2000e%20SERIES%20CONTROLLER%20PROGRAMMING%20GUIDE.pdf) also has an impressive set of features, along with multiple on-site sensor support built into the unit, however I don't think that unit really shines without using the optional sensors.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

The homeowner weathertrak is very similar to the irritrol/toro system. Uses a r/f sensor as back up. I guess the question is: Is this better than hourly updates and an onsite rain gauge? As an amateur scientist I like the thought of accurate onsite rain measurement. I'm sure their are studies that do a cost analysis of both types and justify their cost and services.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

The CalSense ET2000e (ftp://Docs:Calsense@ftp.calsense.com/ET2000e%20Controller/ET2000e%20SERIES%20CONTROLLER%20PROGRAMMING%20GUIDE.pdf) also has an impressive set of features, along with multiple on-site sensor support built into the unit, however I don't think that unit really shines without using the optional sensors.

Price this. It is really high. Leary looked into it and even he said it would be a tough sell.

[Kiril]

The homeowner weathertrak is very similar to the irritrol/toro system. Uses a r/f sensor as back up. I guess the question is: Is this better than hourly updates and an onsite rain gauge? As an amateur scientist I like the thought of accurate onsite rain measurement. I'm sure their are studies that do a cost analysis of both types and justify their cost and services.

Well, the model I was looking at has an option for a rain gauge. I assume as long as there is at least one sensor input, you can find a way to combine any number of sensors together (wind, rain, etc.) on that input. There is also nothing stopping you from adding soil moisture sensors that are wired directly to the valve.

As far as hourly updates, as I mentioned before, I really don't think it is necessary in typical landscapes. The water status of your landscape is not going to fluctuate that much over the period of one day, unless your soil has almost no WHC.

The thing about that controller which sets it apart from the some of the other brands is per valve/zone ET calculations, full support for setting the landscape coefficient (when subscribed to the service), and flow management. IMO these are critical features to have in order to get somewhat acceptable ET values.

[Hank Reardon]

Price this. It is really high. Leary looked into it and even he said it would be a tough sell.

Hey, if we can't sell it...

[Mike Leary]

Hey, if we can't sell it...

Never say never! There's a sucker, I mean client, out there somewhere.:rolleyes:

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

More pics. I'm understanding this thing better. you establish two windows. One in which you turn zones over to the monitor to turn on and off which are set every day. Another window which allows watering independent of the monitor (say for succulents once a month) but controlled by recent rain and freezing temps. Has lots of stored info. The rep called me within one hour to answer a message left on a recording. It needed an extra powerful antennae to get transmissions into the basement.

[Mike Leary]

More pics. I'm understanding this thing better. you establish two windows. One in which you turn zones over to the monitor to turn on and off which are set every day. Another window which allows watering independent of the monitor (say for succulents once a month) but controlled by recent rain and freezing temps. Has lots of stored info. The rep called me within one hour to answer a message left on a recording. It needed an extra powerful antennae to get transmissions into the basement.

Keep it coming Peter, great shots..wish we had a hooter's here!

[Kiril]

Keep it coming Peter, great shots..wish we had a hooter's here!

Aren't one of these old farts you?

I provided the location, now you provide the beer

http://hooters.know-where.com/hooters/cgi/site?address=&site=198

[Keen]

"As far as hourly updates, as I mentioned before, I really don't think it is necessary in typical landscapes. The water status of your landscape is not going to fluctuate that much over the period of one day, unless your soil has almost no WHC." -Kiril

If once a day what time woud you choose? What if it rained 2" in a hour a little after the update? Would the sytem then run?

Why not update it every hour? The system has the ability to do it and it is already there...so it costs you nothing and I can't see why it would be better to do it once a day. :confused:

[Mike Leary]

Aren't one of these old farts you

Yes, I am...& that's a long ferry/bus ride from the Olympic peninsula where
we have to defend our turf 24/7.:laugh:

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

"As far as hourly updates, as I mentioned before, I really don't think it is necessary in typical landscapes. The water status of your landscape is not going to fluctuate that much over the period of one day, unless your soil has almost no WHC." -Kiril

If once a day what time woud you choose? What if it rained 2" in a hour a little after the update? Would the sytem then run?

Why not update it every hour? The system has the ability to do it and it is already there...so it costs you nothing and I can't see why it would be better to do it once a day. :confused:

I suspect Kiril will weigh in but the once a day update types have a R/F sensor to backup the system. i'm going to get more info on the advantages of hourly updates. It would certainly help with wind issues.

[PurpHaze]

Keep it coming Peter, great shots..wish we had a hooter's here!

Once you've seen one pair of orange shorts you've seen 'em all. :)

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Once you've seen one pair of orange shorts you've seen 'em all. :)

I like it when they bring 4 cold mugs of beer and hold them against their chest so that when they get to the the table their tops are wet and their ........ are hard and pointy.:cool2:

[Kiril]

If once a day what time woud you choose? What if it rained 2" in a hour a little after the update? Would the sytem then run?

As Fimco pointed out, if rain is a factor the site should have a rain sensor, hourly updates or not.

Fimco, wind should be considered the same as rain and therefore if it is a factor on the site, there should be a sensor capable of measuring both speed and direction.

Keen, consider these points.

What if it rained 2" at your site, but didn't rain at all, or only rained 1" where the ET data is collected? How is the system going to compensate for that, rain sensor or not?

The only way it could compensate is if you have a site sensor, and that sensor also acts as a gauge which feeds data to the controller. That tipping "bucket" sensor that Fimco used might do this.

How does a system that does not consider runoff from a rain event determine effective rain? With the RB controller it depends on user supplied information to make a guess at when runoff might actually occur. Needless to say, not a very accurate way to determine effective rain.

In short, regardless of the update frequency, if rain/wind plays a factor in your ET calculations you need an on-site sensor(s).

With regard to what time the daily update should occur, I would update just prior to the water window.

Why not update it every hour? The system has the ability to do it and it is already there...so it costs you nothing and I can't see why it would be better to do it once a day. :confused:

Hourly updates IMHO are a marketing ploy and a reason to charge more for a service than it is worth. In fact, I feel the service should be free for daily updates, and if for some reason you need hourly updates, then you can fork out money for those.

It's not a question of it being better or not, it's a question of it being needed or not. As I noted above, unless your soils have extremely low WHC, there is no zone in your landscape that is going to need water multiple times within a 24 hour period due to ET loses. In fact, with the exception of turf and annuals, the time between waterings in some cases can be extended as much as 21-30 days. Why would you need hourly updates in these cases?

Things to consider here.

ET irrigation controllers are simply trying to determine soil moisture status without actually measuring it. The closer the "crop" your trying to determine that for is to the ETo, the better the controller will be, especially in the case of the RB controller.

ET controllers are basically performing an educated guess at soil moisture content. The more inaccurate or general the data is, the more you deviate from actually conditions. This includes inaccurate user supplied data, and inaccurate data from the broadcast service when it is not an exact reflection of site conditions.

These are some of the reasons why I feel ET based irrigation control loses hands down to soil moisture sensing solutions.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

These are some of the reasons why I feel ET based irrigation control loses hands down to soil moisture sensing solutions.

I agree with you on this 100% But my question is value versus cost. I can go to an existing system. Get them on some form of ET based watering at much less cost than converting that system to a soil moisture monitoring based system. How far off would an ET based system be from a soil moisture system? Can a good water manager with a moisture meter make the nescessary tinkering with an ET system to correspond closer to a soil moisture system?

I think we both agree that ET based watering is better than a human making guesses to program his controller. I can see a soil moisture system working if designed into an initial install but converting seems rather difficult and costly compared to slapping on a Weather monitor and a rain gauge.

[Kiril]

I agree with you on this 100% But my question is value versus cost. I can go to an existing system. Get them on some form of ET based watering at much less cost than converting that system to a soil moisture monitoring based system. How far off would an ET based system be from a soil moisture system? Can a good water manager with a moisture meter make the nescessary tinkering with an ET system to correspond closer to a soil moisture system?

I think we both agree that ET based watering is better than a human making guesses to program his controller. I can see a soil moisture system working if designed into an initial install but converting seems rather difficult and costly compared to slapping on a Weather monitor and a rain gauge.

I think a good water manager can do almost as good as an ET controller with a standard controller, on site measurements, and a schedule based on historical ET. With regard to how far off, it depends on the data being fed into the equation and the level of diversity in the landscape (i.e. how much it deviates from reference crop).

I more or less agree with you that soil sensing for the most part is out of the price range for most residential applications, but then so are alot of those ET controllers.

Retrofitting an existing system would depend on the sensing system your using, the locations of valve boxes (if applicable), and the number of areas you wish to monitor. It might be relatively easy, or not. If the system works by common short at the valve, and your valve boxes are in locations that are fairly representative of the landscape soil conditions in the areas those valves water, it would be pretty easy and cost effective to add soil sensors.

[Keen]

"In fact, I feel the service should be free..."-Kiril

Hard to argue with a statement like that...I keep telling this to the electric company, phone company, cable company, etc...but they just don't seem to want to give me service for "Free" just because I think it should be. (Darn them!)

:rolleyes:

[Kiril]

"In fact, I feel the service should be free..."-Kiril

Hard to argue with a statement like that...I keep telling this to the electric company, phone company, cable company, etc...but they just don't seem to want to give me service for "Free" just because I think it should be. (Darn them!)

:rolleyes:

In the spirit of the whole purpose of ET controllers, they and the service should be made affordable for everyone. Preach conservation, but charge a premium for it so only the rich can afford it. Now that is a winning plan.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

In the spirit of the whole purpose of ET controllers, they and the service should be made affordable for everyone. Preach conservation, but charge a premium for it so only the rich can afford it. Now that is a winning plan.

Collecting the data isn't free. I suspect out tax dollars are involved. If the info is from public funded info, I agree, make it free. If private collected, let them charge whatever the market will bear. My concern with homeowners is that they will discontinue their service which is why I like the WM Smartline which uses historical ET with daily highs and lows.

[PurpHaze]

Collecting the data isn't free. I suspect out tax dollars are involved. If the info is from public funded info, I agree, make it free.

Maybe Marc will see this and chime in... but MANY years ago I was doing research on "physician assited suicide" for a college speech class and I came across material that Georgetown University had on physician ethics. This was back in the days before the WWW and it was found via Archie or Gopher and it was very interesting. I called the contact number, spoke with a very nice lady at the university and discussed with her what info I would be needing. She wrote everything down and then I asked her how much money I needed to send her for the material. She replied, "Nothing. Your tax dollars pay for it all since Georgetown has been designated as the repository for information in this area by Congress." About five days later a packet arrived with copies of all the info I'd requested along with a very nice note from Georgetown thanking me for using their services.

[Kiril]

Collecting the data isn't free. I suspect out tax dollars are involved. If the info is from public funded info, I agree, make it free. If private collected, let them charge whatever the market will bear. My concern with homeowners is that they will discontinue their service which is why I like the WM Smartline which uses historical ET with daily highs and lows.

Well, in the case of RB, no it's not "free". From what I can tell they depend on private and commercial customers (questionable data integrity) to provide data, probably why their coverage areas are piss poor. IMHO RB is going to miss the boat in this department if they don't make some changes soon. Their ET manager is as limited as their service coverage areas.

In the case of WeatherTraK, they utilize NOAA and other established sources of information (eg. probably CIMIS in California).

HydroPoint’s WeatherTRAK ET Everywhere® service collects weather data from more than 14,000 weather stations, including the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) network. Proven scientific modeling validates local weather data to one square kilometer for every neighborhood in the U.S. before updates are transmitted to ET plus controllers. No sensors or other special equipment are required.

Any data that can be obtained for free (eg. CIMIS, NOAA) should also be broadcast to ET controllers FOC, especially in the case where said data collection is funded by tax payers.

This was back in the days before the WWW and it was found via Archie or Gopher and it was very interesting.

I can remember tooling around those services, man how things have changed.

[Rotor_Tool]

Well, in the case of RB, no it's not "free". From what I can tell they depend on private and commercial customers (questionable data integrity) to provide data, probably why their coverage areas are piss poor. IMHO RB is going to miss the boat in this department if they don't make some changes soon. Their ET manager is as limited as their service coverage areas.

In the case of WeatherTraK, they utilize NOAA and other established sources of information (eg. probably CIMIS in California).



Any data that can be obtained for free (eg. CIMIS, NOAA) should also be broadcast to ET controllers FOC, especially in the case where said data collection is funded by tax payers.


I can remember tooling around those services, man how things have changed.

You can check the RB website to verify, but this is what I know about the ET Manager from my RB rep...

1. Weather data is provided free of charge in areas where the state/water agencies are willing to take an active role in conserving water and making the data available. For instance, the data is available free of charge in all of Utah, City of Chula Vista, San Diego proper, Tucson, Phoenix, Lake LAs Vegas, populated areas of Colorado, and many other areas are in the works.
2. CIMIS data is free, however if you are a Weather-Trak subscriber in California, you still pay a fee to receive the signal - AND Weather-Trak does not use CIMIS data.
3. Weather-Trak data is "collected" (read: dumped by the National Weather Service, where it becomes public domain - collected free of charge) then processed and broadcast (ET Value only) once a day to any subscriber willing to pay for it. If you take the time to look into this data, you will find that the provided rain information is interpolated through radar density maps - esentially a WAG at rainfall at ground level. Thus the need for R/F sensor...on/off only which does nothing toward extension of non-watering periods due to rainfall.
4. There are areas with private or commercial signal coverage, these are areas where the water purveyors are private (read: for profit) agencies that have ZERO interest in conserving water. The more water they sell, the more $$ they make.
5. The ET Manager comes with an extensive historical ET database, the unit could be installed and run on historical ET with an onsite tipping rain gauge and be as accurate or more so than any other unit on the market.

[Kiril]

1. Weather data is provided free of charge in areas where the state/water agencies are willing to take an active role in conserving water and making the data available. For instance, the data is available free of charge in all of Utah, City of Chula Vista, San Diego proper, Tucson, Phoenix, Lake LAs Vegas, populated areas of Colorado, and many other areas are in the works.

Quite possible. The only info that I have seen on it is you have to pay for it.


2. CIMIS data is free, however if you are a Weather-Trak subscriber in California, you still pay a fee to receive the signal - AND Weather-Trak does not use CIMIS data.

I was assuming the "other sources" included CIMIS, especially considering it is free and more acccurate with regard to ET than NOAA.

3. Weather-Trak data is "collected" (read: dumped by the National Weather Service, where it becomes public domain - collected free of charge) then processed and broadcast (ET Value only) once a day to any subscriber willing to pay for it. If you take the time to look into this data, you will find that the provided rain information is interpolated through radar density maps - esentially a WAG at rainfall at ground level. Thus the need for R/F sensor...on/off only which does nothing toward extension of non-watering periods due to rainfall.

Yup, hence the problems associated with using NOAA data, which is not really collected for ET calculations. Always use on-site weather sensors where possible. Personally I think you should be collecting all the data on-site in order to get that prediction as close to the real deal as possible.

4. There are areas with private or commercial signal coverage, these are areas where the water purveyors are private (read: for profit) agencies that have ZERO interest in conserving water. The more water they sell, the more $$ they make.

Screw them.

5. The ET Manager comes with an extensive historical ET database, the unit could be installed and run on historical ET with an onsite tipping rain gauge and be as accurate or more so than any other unit on the market.

Can't argue with that assuming the historical data is representative of site conditions, although I don't know about being more accurate than real time data collected on-site.

I believe an informed water manager with a standard controller, ET software (using historical data) to determine a baseline schedule, and a Lincoln for fine tuning can be nearly as accurate as an ET controller.

As far as the RB ET Manager is concerned, I've already mentioned the major shortcomings of it in This Thread (http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=1906201&postcount=11)

And I'll add one more to that list:

3) No flow sensing. Don't guess at how much water is being applied, measure it.

Course, when compared to soil moisture sensing (done properly), all the ET controllers fall quite a bit short.

[anthem]

I think there are several things at play here. I don't believe the controllers really utilize information on an hourly basis. I think that they are using a method of calculation for calculating ET, and the most common method is using ET pulses - and those are generally done hourly. So, eventhough they don't do anything hourly, it may make it easier for them to utilize ET data 'hourly' and therefore receive 'hourly updates' - rather than actually it being meaningful hourly information that it utilized.

Now, in terms of ET Manager from RB, there are a lot of shortcoming in that area. Outside of the the limited control, lack of features, and inability to vary actual water volume programming (only whether to water or not) - the data it receives is extremely limited geographically. I really am stumped as to why RB went in that direction (irritrol/WB).

Regarding the 'commercial' weather sensors, I can't say that they are necessarily water sources that benefit from selling water. They are usually landscape/irrigation companies who have set up an CSI weather station feeding the WR server and sending out the data signal via paging services.

Flow sensing ? That becomes a bit more difficult. it's not just flow sensing, its flow sensing by zone/type for ET. Otherwise its just a glorified leak/head detector.

I think a standard controller with ET software is an ET controller so not sure what hair you're splitting there :-). But in terms of controller/water effectiveness, I think Historical ET helps. I think tipping/rain bucket helps. ET with tipping rain bucket is even better. Live ET is the best - its just not always price reasonable for most people to attain. Live ET for the ET manager is even more difficult to do than many other controllers because it can't take ET data directly. It can only take ET data over the wireless paging network - which means et data to WR server, to paging network back to ET Manager. Not sure why RB opted to do it this way as the number of ET/WR stations is piss poor. But there are ET controllers out there that can take local or wireless data. Too bad there aren't enough readily available live ET data sources, and even having them you have to figure out how to get that data into the whatever system you want.

I'm not sure what I'd rather have - a soil mosture sensing system done right or an ET based system done right. Both have their limitations, but I think both done right are comparable and is a huge improvement over anything else.

[Mike Leary]

Otherwise its just a glorified leak/head detector.



And what is wrong with that? Talk about water savings! Rain-Master & others
shut down zones & mainline should overflow occur thanks to flow sensor &
master valve. My question is....is this all rhetoric..or do you posters have
systems in place where the talk is the walk? We don't, set up for it, planned
for it, but flow sensing High/low & electrical checking is the best we can do.
If you guys are automated in the way you describe, it'll take the the heat off
me & Hank!:)

[anthem]

Mike, No disagreement from me over flow sensors. I was just commenting on Kiril'
s comment that there was no flow sensing on the ET manager from RB. I think flow sensing is important on the controller. I think if you want to do ET right on a controller, the volume of water distributed based on ET also needs to be right. Which gets into volume flow by zone (but that doesn't necessarily mean a flow sensor is necessary on every zone as zones/programs can be run stacked to determine flow rather than overlapping).

What I was getting at was that the ET controller if it has flow sensing, should have the capability of ET variation by zone as well and not just ET overall which is what the RB ET Manager is). Basically a shortcoming of the ET Manager as its not an integrated unit, but an inline/intercept unit.

[Mike Leary]

Mike, No disagreement from me over flow sensors. I was just commenting on Kiril'
s comment that there was no flow sensing on the ET manager from RB. I think flow sensing is important on the controller. I think if you want to do ET right on a controller, the volume of water distributed based on ET also needs to be right. Which gets into volume flow by zone (but that doesn't necessarily mean a flow sensor is necessary on every zone as zones/programs can be run stacked to determine flow rather than overlapping).

What I was getting at was that the ET controller if it has flow sensing, should have the capability of ET variation by zone as well and not just ET overall which is what the RB ET Manager is). Basically a shortcoming of the ET Manager as its not an integrated unit, but an inline/intercept unit.

If a hip de do clock does not have flow sensing....junk. IMHO. Stack/no stack
has to be figured in when the clock is set up for the flow sensor to get it.:)
The flow sensor has nothing to do with fancy pants ET, etc, it's your ears
on the system should (shudder) something break. All your stuff is common
shorting or w/central, wind, rain, et (ho ho) leaf wetness, ad nauseum.:rolleyes:
Brass master valves are the way to go since THEY are not only the heart of the "ET" system,
they work so hard every cycle, we like weather-matic 8000, when q.c lines or faucets are used, a "normally open" master valve is used, Superior makes one of the few.:)

[anthem]

Superior/RainbirdGB makes great brass valves. I'm itching to try the newer Rainbird EFB-CP self-flushing brass valves. I love to spec brass valves if given the opportunity - but how many people are willing to spend $150/valve when they can get el cheapo ones for $20 ?

Same goes for ball valves - the apollo brass ones over pvc ones...

Now for ET - well, I've seen the water savings. Like I said, eveything is incremental - historical, rain bucket, local weather, etc. I just think the RB ET Manager is the worse solution as it isn't integrated.

[Kiril]

Mike, No disagreement from me over flow sensors. I was just commenting on Kiril'
s comment that there was no flow sensing on the ET manager from RB. I think flow sensing is important on the controller. I think if you want to do ET right on a controller, the volume of water distributed based on ET also needs to be right. Which gets into volume flow by zone (but that doesn't necessarily mean a flow sensor is necessary on every zone as zones/programs can be run stacked to determine flow rather than overlapping).

What I was getting at was that the ET controller if it has flow sensing, should have the capability of ET variation by zone as well and not just ET overall which is what the RB ET Manager is). Basically a shortcoming of the ET Manager as its not an integrated unit, but an inline/intercept unit.

Naturally you would need per zone flow sensing. One flow sensor just downstream of your back flow should do it. As far as tracking it, that is about 1 line of code, assuming the device can accept a data input.

Brass master valves are the way to go since THEY are not only the heart of the "ET" system, they work so hard every cycle, we like weather-matic 8000, when q.c lines or faucets are used, a "normally open" master valve is used, Superior makes one of the few.:)

If your really serious about master valves you would be using nothing less than a stainless steel industrial quality valve, be it NO or NC, if the valve is really as mission critical as you would like us to believe. ;)

Also keep in mind, because brass corrodes (albeit slowly), and is prone to pitting (soft metal compared to bronze or stainless steel), it isn't the end all solution by any means.

When I posted that ASCO link I was only half kidding. I'm putting one of those into my house as a means to shut-off water in the event of a leak.

All your stuff is common shorting or w/central, wind, rain, et (ho ho) leaf wetness

Don't forget sap flow. :nono:

I think a standard controller with ET software is an ET controller so not sure what hair you're splitting there

Semantics. The hair I am splitting is the cost of the controller. The software is not part of the controller, and it is free.


Now for ET - well, I've seen the water savings. Like I said, everything is incremental - historical, rain bucket, local weather, etc. I just think the RB ET Manager is the worse solution as it isn't integrated.

I don't believe that integrated vs. not integrated is a deal breaker for me, however the integrated is by far the neater package.

As long as an ET manager can give per valve control, along with nice complement of sensor support (at least 4) and/or full weather station support, and allow for setting landscape coefficient variables, I have no problem with a separate box.

[Mike Leary]

[QUOTE=Kiril;1930442

Also keep in mind, because brass corrodes (albeit slowly), and is prone to pitting (soft metal compared to bronze or stainless steel), it isn't the end all solution by any means.

.[/QUOTE]

Tell that to some Weather-Matic brass valves I've pulled out of the ground,
(& I mean THE GROUND, direct buried) that were twenty five years old!
Master valves are always a source of discussion: would you rather have the
mainline break & only flow at night where no one would notice or, with no
master valve..at least the "water feature" would be obvious in the day.
Even with our Rain Masters w/normally open master valves, should a lateral
or main break, the clock will shut down. But if the clients, gardeners & lawn
crews don't notice (it has happened to us) brown & death is the result.
The only answer, of course, is Central, even for us ,unaffordable until we
get a few more Rain Master clients to spread the cost of software & tank
laptop. As the great philosopher Purple Haze once said, "for every action,
there is a equal and opposite reaction.:)

[Rotor_Tool]

Check this month's edition of Irrigation and Green Industry magazine for a case study on ET Manager:

www.igin.com - look for the featured products

With all this talk about flow sensing and control by zone, I think you are overlooking the market segment that the ET Manager was developed for. The unit is supposed to provide ET based scheduling for stand-alone non-central control sites. Think for a minute, how many conventional controllers exist today that are potential targets for an ET Manager install? The unit was not developed to act as a central control system, if you need flow sensing and individual station control, look at SiteControl or Maxi-Com. Rainmaster has been mentioned several times, you are comparing apples and oranges. By the way, I have installed a few ET Managers on RainMaster and Cal-Sense controllers.

The Intellisense/Smart Dial/WeatherTrak units by Hydropoint don't have flow-sensing capability, neither does the WeatherMatic "Smart"line, these products were not developed for that market segment. I think you are trying to make the product into something that it is not.

Back to the original post...how is the unit at the Arboretum working?

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Back to the original post...how is the unit at the Arboretum working?

Very good question and I will know more tomorrow. They are a little nervous about it and I have had a long phone conversation with the person in charge of irrigation. They have some unusual watering needs like a succulent bed that needs water only once a month. I told them to put anything they want watered independent of the monitor to run after the 5am ending window. I think they need to be broken in slowly considering they are an Arboretum and it would be a disaster if plants started croaking left and right. My suggestion to them was let's find the zones (grass areas, natives, perennials, etc ) that they can trust to the monitor and as they develop confidence in it continue to add more zones. We may shrink the monitor window depending on the number of zones and time needed to water before they open to visitors. Just because something is not within the monitor window does not mean it escapes it completely. It just becomes a very expensive r/f sensor. We'll see what happens. The TNLA BBQ is at the Arboretum tomorrow and I'll get more feedback then. Another company not part of this process actually does the irrigation service work upon request and they may have mixed feelings about all this. Seeing as how that company didn't even have the 4 20 station plus controllers set up for remotes I'd say they are a little archaic. (PS I know who they are.)

[Kiril]

They have some unusual watering needs like a succulent bed that needs water only once a month. I told them to put anything they want watered independent of the monitor to run after the 5am ending window.

I wouldn't call that totally unusual. It may even fall into the same water requirement as some of your natives. Good suggestion to separate it from the ET Manager.

@Mike

Your so defensive about using master valves. I never said to not use them, only if it is mission critical, use mission critical materials.

@Rotor-Tool

I would disagree that flow sensing should be limited to central control. Knowing how much water you are applying to your landscape is a necessary part of the ET equation. If your guessing, then your ET calculation is going to be off and you will end up over or under watering. Most all of the high end ET controllers offer flow sensing.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

It's not as easy but water meter readings can provide flow data. The problem now is the cities slap these counters on them to make reading for billing faster and you can't see the dial as well. When we do an overhaul we read the meter before and after. Makes the job fun and challenging for us and shows the customer real results for their money. I need to find an inexpensive meter that I can put inline. Don't care if it communicates with the clock.

[Kiril]

http://www.jerman.com/dljmeter.html

http://www.jerman.com/dljsjmeters.html

http://www.flowmeters.com/products/index.cfm?task=prod_detail&prod_id=1140

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

What about Data controls? I was thinking in terms of one that uses a battery and gives quick digital readouts to save time and avoid the stopwatch.

[Kiril]

What about Data controls? I was thinking in terms of one that uses a battery and gives quick digital readouts to save time and avoid the stopwatch.

http://jerman.com/reset.html

No power required except battery.

A more elegant solution, but also much more expensive.

http://www.flowmeters.com/products/index.cfm?task=serve_prod_pdf&sub=E:\Web%20Files\fmcom\htdocs\www\files/PWSpecs_11242004.pdf

[Kiril]

Another water meter with flow reading at sub $100.

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=FTB600_7000&Nav=gref02

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

To The Top

[Kiril]

To The Top

As ML would say .... over the top :dizzy:

[Wet_Boots]

....but will it interface with my lawn genie

[Sprinkus]

I think my biggest gripe about the ET Manager is that it requires separate common wires for grass and bed zones.
Not a problem if one were to install it on a new job, but then again why would anyone want to install it on a new job when there are other controllers that do the same thing without requiring an additional unit?
Other than that I do like that it updates the information hourly, and it does seem to give quite accurate information too.
I should thank the folks at Rainbird for giving me free units to try out, although I guess they owe it to me after dealing with the 33% failure rate I recently had with their Eagle Rotors!

[bicmudpuppy]

I would agree that hourly updates are very excessive EXCEPT? is the unit using THAT data to determine ET? In lieu of Historical data, don't the computations really need those numbers to function? Maybe 6 or 12 updates a day would be better, but to figure a "true" ET, you need the daily AVERAGES for wind, sunshine, temperature. The one piece of equipment I really wish I had here is the weather station they didn't foot for at construction. The weatherbug station at the HS about 3 miles away is better than nothing, but here in the "mountains" (actually on the plateua @ 6000', but the inference is correct) even a quarter of a mile can make a big difference. When your annual rainfall is less than twice your monthly ET, every storm that "misses" makes a difference too.