Water deeply

[RigglePLC]

Deep watering produces deep roots--everybody knows that--or do they?

Hmmm...

Or is this an old wives tale?

So why do sprinkler companies set their clocks usually for everyday?

So does deeper watering yield deeper roots--how deep? If one inch of water gets 4 inch roots. Does 2 inches of water yield 8 inch roots? 6 inches of water 24 inch roots? Does it depend on grass species? Soil type? Soil temp? Soil aeration?

[muddstopper]

I cant explain why any company does what it does. But deep watering will produce a better root system than light frequent waterings. Roots have a habit of growing toward their best water and nutrient sources. Frequant light watering ensures that source is going to be close to the surface of the soil. This is fine as long as you can continue with the regular irrigation, but if your irrigation system fails or you are put on a watering restriction, then the roots of the plant dont penetrate downward far enough to be able to pull moisture from the reserves deeper in the soil. Deeper watering cycles will also have healthier lawns with less fungal problems. Fungus lives and breaths in that aerobic zone that is close to the soil surface, you want fungus, keep it wet and damp at the top of the soil.

On overfertilized lawns, the soil will often become compacted due to the carbon conversions the endup in the atmosphere. With this compaction, deep watering becomes harder to achieve. The harder the soil the more the water runs off. Also with compaction, roots arenot able to pentrate downward into the soil. If a root hits 300psi of resistance in the soil, it will just sendoff another shoot looking for a better nutrient and water source. This is often closer to the surface of the soil, again, this is in an area that is faster to dry out in the event of a drought situation.

Frequent lite waterings are a good indication of poor cultrial practices and usually from more than one source. It could be the mower guy cutting to short, or the chemical guy using to much or the wrong chemicals, or the homeowner that thinks the lawn is supposed to be dark green and actively growing during the hot summer when it would usually be dormant.

[rcreech]

I fully agree with Mudstopper on the first and last paragraph but the middle paragraph sounds a little wacked!

The middle paragraph confuses me a little! I agree that runoff is more likely on compacted soils...but since when does over fertilizing cause soil compaction!

The only thing that I have ever known to cause soil compaction is excessive traffic and/or heavy equipment.

This is a new one to me!

SOIL TYPE, SOIL STRUCTURE and SOIL CONDITIONS (ie moisture) affect soil compaction.

I have never heard of fertility having anything to do with the compaction of soils! Soil compaction is a physical action in the soil as it had nothing to do with chemical reactions!

[americanlawn]

I fully agree with Mudstopper on the first and last paragraph but the middle paragraph sounds a little wacked!

The middle paragraph confuses me a little! I agree that runoff is more likely on compacted soils...but since when does over fertilizing cause soil compaction!

The only thing that I have ever known to cause soil compaction is excessive traffic and/or heavy equipment.

This is a new one to me!

SOIL TYPE, SOIL STRUCTURE and SOIL CONDITIONS (ie moisture) affect soil compaction.

I have never heard of fertility having anything to do with the compaction of soils! Soil compaction is a physical action in the soil as it had nothing to do with chemical reactions!

I agree rcreech. In fact, midwest university research indicates that heavy/compacted soils require more nutrients than good soils. We see this evident every spring. Loam & sandy loam lawns green up quickly compared to heavy clay soil lawns which take several more weeks before they take off (unless they received the "late fall winterizer" (heavy fert).

Watering techniques on heavy/compacted lawns may also differ (especially on slopes) compared to "good soil lawns" due the difference of soil permiability. New homebuilders here are required to have a 95% compaction rate or higher, hence the subsoil (clay) that most sod is laid on nowadays. No wonder more & more new homeowners have irrigation systems.:usflag:

[rcreech]

Air, water and nutrient movement is very most important for plant growth (as we all know)!

If soils are compacted they lay wetter and don't have good air, water and nutrient movement! You can also lose N (denitrification) when soils are compacted and lay wet.

Adding fertilizer on compacted soils usually shows a quick plant response due to poor root growth in compacted soils (root restriction).

We had to run our crops last year on wet soils because it rained ALL fall...and now this year we are seeing some K defeciencies on the leaves of the corn. Our soils are not defecient....but the roots are being restricted!

Help us out Mudstopper....where did you hear this? What Base Saturation levels would cause this? Just kidding!!!!!!
I really am not trying to mess with you...I just would like for you to explain your "ideas" so I can try and understand! We have totally different ideas when it comes to soils...but you are the only one I have ever seen with these ideas! Thank you for the patience with my questioning!

[americanlawn]

50% growing medium. 25% air. 25% water. That's kinda what I was taught - regarding good plant growth. Heavy soils tend to lack optimum air & water.

I know there is no perfect garden here. Great posts here by ALL! Nice job/good threads! and nobody is picking on anybody (thank God)!

[rcreech]

Same %'s that I was taught also!

[rcreech]

On overfertilized lawns, the soil will often become compacted due to the carbon conversions the endup in the atmosphere.

Mudstopper,

I have looked all over the internet and can't find anyone that links high fertility and compaction.

Where did you learn this?

[muddstopper]

Heres a little something for you to read while I do your research for you.
http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/droughtmyth_nov00.pdf

[treemonkey]

Regarding the original question, here is a new recommendation from Michigan State that will throw a wrench in everything you believe:

http://www.turf.msu.edu/docs/turftipsE09.pdf go to amounts and schedules

If one were to only read this one pub., you would think that daily watering is the new recommendation.

But, go to this later article, and the daily recommendation is put into perspective:

http://www.ipm.msu.edu/CAT04_land/L07-02-04.htm go to "turf stressing out"


LESSON: Read publications from the Land Grant Ivory Tower with care.

[MStine315]

I disagree with the deep water=deep roots theory. As the MSU bulletins state, turf roots NATURALLY become shallow in summer time, so deep water will just blow by them, whereas frequent watering at a lighter rate will keep them going until fall, when they head back south. Doc Vargas put it best, when he said "Roots don't have a brain, they don't say 'Hey, the water's down there, I'll go get it.'" So to answer Riggle's original question, yes it is an old wife's tale. But as an aside, I DO think there is a tremendous waste of water out there. I have seen this summer more than ever where property managers see a brown spot and they crank the old clock up intead of finding out why the spot is there to begin with. Usually it's a rotor that isn't turning, so now it's not turning for an hour, instead of 30 minutes. I've seen a host of properties with standing water next to dormant turf.

[lawnservice]

I disagree with the deep water=deep roots theory. As the MSU bulletins state, turf roots NATURALLY become shallow in summer time, so deep water will just blow by them, whereas frequent watering at a lighter rate will keep them going until fall, when they head back south. Doc Vargas put it best, when he said "Roots don't have a brain, they don't say 'Hey, the water's down there, I'll go get it.'" So to answer Riggle's original question, yes it is an old wife's tale. But as an aside, I DO think there is a tremendous waste of water out there. I have seen this summer more than ever where property managers see a brown spot and they crank the old clock up intead of finding out why the spot is there to begin with. Usually it's a rotor that isn't turning, so now it's not turning for an hour, instead of 30 minutes. I've seen a host of properties with standing water next to dormant turf.

true, however......the reason roots NATURALLY become shallow in summer is because of drought...right?

On a proper watering schedule (proper for the particular site and not just the ole rule of thumb to water deeply/infrequently) the roots wouldnt come up close to surface...I would think?

[mdlwn1]

Not sure what you can get out of those articles? It doesn't change anything. Of course you wont have as many bugs if you water all of the time. The stressed turf article looked like general theory and not a recomendation.

On another note...2 years ago rutgers (big turf program) in response to many complaints of mid and late season crabgrass from quite a few co's..said that some mystery enviornmental condition is causing this problem. I have been preventing crabgrass in sand and in the worst clay...for about 20 years, and have never had an issue when I applied EVENLY! Take their info as you see fit.

[mdlwn1]

Mstine...just read your post...well said.....it's a constantly changing situation that has to be read like a newspaper all of the time.

[quiet]

Interesting! But they say that's for cool season turf. Here's the link by the TX A&M Extension Service in San Antonio. Just the opposite!

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/extension/homelandscape/water/water.html

[FdLLawnMan]

true, however......the reason roots NATURALLY become shallow in summer is because of drought...right?

On a proper watering schedule (proper for the particular site and not just the ole rule of thumb to water deeply/infrequently) the roots wouldnt come up close to surface...I would think?

If I remember correctly from my seminars I attended roots become shallow because of the temperature of the air & soil.

Mike I
Mike's Total Lawn Care

[lawncuttinfoo]

obviously someone is wrong, now who is it? One thing that makes sense is that too much water in the soil robs the plant of air, but I guess then someone will say that plants can use the air in water.

From personal experience, the lawns that are watered every day are overgrown forcing my to mow at 1mph when I get there each week and have the most weed problems, but they do look the greenest and most healthy.

[timturf]

Turfgrass roots are dying through oput the season, the the plant will produce new roots! Now with cool season turfgrass, when the soil temp gets too warm, maybe above 70 degrees, can't exaxtly remember the exact temp, root growth cecess, shallower and less roots in hot tempatures

~ 80% of cool season turfgrass roots are in the top 3" of soil profile, so you need to water deeply, ~ 4' deep, then wait for soil to dry out, then water deeply again..... You help force the roots deeper looking for water and nutrients...if plenty of water on the surface... roots will be shallower

[heritage]

Air, water and nutrient movement is very most important for plant growth (as we all know)!

If soils are compacted they lay wetter and don't have good air, water and nutrient movement! You can also lose N (denitrification) when soils are compacted and lay wet.

Adding fertilizer on compacted soils usually shows a quick plant response due to poor root growth in compacted soils (root restriction).

We had to run our crops last year on wet soils because it rained ALL fall...and now this year we are seeing some K defeciencies on the leaves of the corn. Our soils are not defecient....but the roots are being restricted!

Help us out Mudstopper....where did you hear this? What Base Saturation levels would cause this? Just kidding!!!!!!
I really am not trying to mess with you...I just would like for you to explain your "ideas" so I can try and understand! We have totally different ideas when it comes to soils...but you are the only one I have ever seen with these ideas! Thank you for the patience with my questioning!

Rcreech,

Too much nitrogen (over fertilization) will burn up Organic Matter and Put Ca. in solution. The organic fraction has a High CEC too... remember? The goal should be to build OM in the soil, not burn it up too fast.

Burn up the organic fraction/humus with overfertilization, and less microbe life and less pore space in the soil, i.e. more compaction to name a few.

This was the #1 problem I saw with a lawn cared for by TGCL, prior to my taking over.

I am suprised you did not learn about C/N Ratios in College.

Mudstopper, I am on your page, and the Turf looks awesome!

Great soil tilth too!

Pete D.

[rcreech]

Heritage,

This sounds crazy to me, but what do I know huh! The more N you add the quicker you will accelerate breakdown of high Carbon materials which should make your soil healthier increasing OM!

Where do you guys heat this stuff?

Never heard of this and AGAIN....I would like to see data that supports this. Nowhere have I seen or found any.

BTW, what it too much N? We put on 200 units of N on our corn ground to grow the crop....wouldn't you think this would cause major compaction for us using your theory?

And yes I did learn about C:N ratios in COLLEGE, but it was they only discussed the ratios in how it broke down. The lower the C:N ration the quicke it breaks down (table scraps vs straw for wood). I have never heard of adding N and it causing compaction!

[treemonkey]

My,My....we're getting just a bit off topic here.

rcreech, please remember, they are talking about OVER fertilizing - applying WAY more N than the crop and/or soil requires. Bad things can happen if you over fertilize with any type of N, chemical or natural.

I would think any sound fertilizer regime would have improved the TGCL lawns if EXCESSIVE N was not a part of it.

So, I could imagine that EXCESSIVE N might cause OM depletion. And then, when some physical force was applied to the soil - gravity, vehicle traffic, freeze/thaw, wet/dry, etc., the soil might become more compacted with less OM present. Again, we're talking EXCESSIVE N, not fertility theories.

Soooo, what about watering theories? Deep or shallow?

[rcreech]

My,My....we're getting just a bit off topic here.

rcreech, please remember, they are talking about OVER fertilizing - applying WAY more N than the crop and/or soil requires. Bad things can happen if you over fertilize with any type of N, chemical or natural.

I would think any sound fertilizer regime would have improved the TGCL lawns if EXCESSIVE N was not a part of it.

So, I could imagine that EXCESSIVE N might cause OM depletion. And then, when some physical force was applied to the soil - gravity, vehicle traffic, freeze/thaw, wet/dry, etc., the soil might become more compacted with less OM present. Again, we're talking EXCESSIVE N, not fertility theories.

Soooo, what about watering theories? Deep or shallow?



I agree off topic, as I don't know where this came from but for some reason Heritage guns for me on here and is always trying to slam me, but I think it is funny! Every since he found out I was educated it pissed him off!

Well if this is the case, if we are talking about what happens when you overapply.... I will state that if you apply 1 gallon/1000 of 3-Way it will kill your lawn! Lets be practical on here guys!

I guess I don't ever have to worry about adding excessive N due to its cost!

Like I said we apply 200#N and have 30 N credits/ac from our beans, so "what is excessive N"? That is tons more then you will have on a lawn at any time, and this doesn't cause compaction, and I haven't seen our OM decrease. Infact since we have been no-till it is on the rise.

Nowhere will you find N and soil compaction related! Timfurf on the other thread says that Ca:Mg causes compaction. The base boys need to get their stories straight!

[regularguy]

If deep roots are what you are trying to accomplish I always thought that the higher you cut the grass the deeper the roots will be, scalp the lawn and you are effectively pruning the roots. That was always my understanding and if I am incorrect someone will surely bring it to my attention.

I believe that you have to experiment and determine what works best for you, I have tried both ways and the infrequent long waterings did not give me the quality of turf grass that I was looking for, now when it is hot and dry I water every other day and it seems to work well for me.

[heritage]

Heritage,

This sounds crazy to me, but what do I know huh! The more N you add the quicker you will accelerate breakdown of high Carbon materials which should make your soil healthier increasing OM!

Where do you guys heat this stuff?

Never heard of this and AGAIN....I would like to see data that supports this. Nowhere have I seen or found any.

BTW, what it too much N? We put on 200 units of N on our corn ground to grow the crop....wouldn't you think this would cause major compaction for us using your theory?

And yes I did learn about C:N ratios in COLLEGE, but it was they only discussed the ratios in how it broke down. The lower the C:N ration the quicke it breaks down (table scraps vs straw for wood). I have never heard of adding N and it causing compaction!


Rcreech,

More N will breakdown OM FASTER into an Available Form to plants...This LOWERS the Carbon Reserve in the soil.

It's really quite simple. Less OM in soils can create less microbe activity.

Less Ca. on soil colloid, from high inputs of Ammonical OR Urea N, can make soils more compact WITHOUT physical compacting from traffic, especially high Mag soils. These types of N put Ca. into Solution, where it can Leach and or be take up by plants. I learned this from a Rutgers Professor in a discussion about Summer Patch Disease.

If you are talking about SAND, Compaction is not an issue and Deep watering is not enough.....Sand needs water more frequently.


Pete D.

[heritage]

I agree off topic, as I don't know where this came from but for some reason Heritage guns for me on here and is always trying to slam me, but I think it is funny! Every since he found out I was educated it pissed him off!

Well if this is the case, if we are talking about what happens when you overapply.... I will state that if you apply 1 gallon/1000 of 3-Way it will kill your lawn! Lets be practical on here guys!

I guess I don't ever have to worry about adding excessive N due to its cost!

Like I said we apply 200#N and have 30 N credits/ac from our beans, so "what is excessive N"? That is tons more then you will have on a lawn at any time, and this doesn't cause compaction, and I haven't seen our OM decrease. Infact since we have been no-till it is on the rise.

Nowhere will you find N and soil compaction related! Timfurf on the other thread says that Ca:Mg causes compaction. The base boys need to get their stories straight!


Rcreech,

I am not pissed off and I welcome educated opinion.

Timturf know's that if Ca/Mg ratios get out of wack, soil will become more compact. So does Muddstopper.

I must ask you why YOU question this? Talk to any Farmer or Golf Course Super with Hi-Mag soils, and Compaction......They add Hi-Cal lime to keep soild from getting tight (compact).

Lot's of good replies here on the watering advice too.

Pete D.

[rcreech]

I am glad to hear that, but I thought it just seemed that way.

We're cool!

Maybe I am not familiar with this due to our natural Ca soils. We have calcarious soils here in OH.

When you say high Ca lime are you talking Gyp....because Mudstopper said in a post a few weeks ago that adding Gyp didn't change soil tilth.

My point was this...and then I will shut up.

When I hear or talk to anyone about soil compaction, fertility has never been in the conversation. It is always equipment and traffic related (or sidewall compaction from tillage or planting too wet). I have found no info on the internet about fertility and compaction.

What levels of "over fertilizing" are you talking about? Why would someone add this much fert anyway?

[heritage]

I am glad to hear that, but I thought it just seemed that way.

We're cool!

Maybe I am not familiar with this due to our natural Ca soils. We have calcarious soils here in OH.

When you say high Ca lime are you talking Gyp....because Mudstopper said in a post a few weeks ago that adding Gyp didn't change soil tilth.

My point was this...and then I will shut up.

When I hear or talk to anyone about soil compaction, fertility has never been in the conversation. It is always equipment and traffic related (or sidewall compaction from tillage or planting too wet). I have found no info on the internet about fertility and compaction.

What levels of "over fertilizing" are you talking about? Why would someone add this much fert anyway?

Rcreech,

When I say Hi-Cal Lime, I am talking about Calcitic Lime.

Up until about 8 years ago, I too had not heard about such talk about Elements that can cause/relieve soil compaction. It was an eye opener for me.

Talking about over fertilizing levels, it's not just over applying N for green, but it's also about what your not applying too...That's when things can become out of balance with soils and plants too.

We want to create a healthy fertilization plan for our turf, so we soil test to be sure the elements plants need are in the soil.

Maintaining soil P.H. as well as C/N ratios help the elements in the soil to be more "available" to plants in the nutrient pool.

Sure plants will still get diseases in certain situations, but overall less stress and disease issues, when the above conditions can be met/sustained.

Pete D.

[PHS]

Hi All,

New to this site but it looks interesting. I was reading through this thread and it seems to me that there are a couple issues that haven't been raised.

It's not the soil fertility per se that can lead to compaction but rather the repeated use of fertilizers with a high salt index. Gerally speaking water soluble fertilizers and products like that have a much higher salt index than high quality slow realease fertilizers. Those salts displace Ca and Mg off of the soil colloids (into the soil solution as has been mentioned) which results in a degredation of the soil structure.

In soils where there is a high accumulation of salts, gypsum can in fact help to improve structure. Not by the addition of Ca but the SO4's bonding to Na, K, etc (the elements that displaced the Ca in the first place) to form solids which can then be leached out of the soil (similar to lime adjusting pH by the CO3 bonding to and neutralizing H+ ions).

Over fertilizition or just poor fertilizing practices can cause other problems too but I just wanted to comment on the compaction issue.

As for the irrigation, the articles were primarily concerned with 1x per week and almost everyday watering. Can't there be a happy medium :) ? I'm not a full time lawn guy but I do work with them. Honestly most of my professional carreer has been working as an arborist but I find that allowing 2-3 days in between irrigations produces a high quality and durable turf with a minimum of weed and disease problems. For example, if the lawn is transpiring 1" of water per week apply 1/2" per cycle 3-4 days apart. That also provides good compatibility between the lawn and other landscape plants like trees that are susceptible to root rot, not to mention keeping the water bill to a minimum.

[rcreech]

PHS,

Welcome to the site! It is great to have you!

It's good to know someone else on here knows its the C03 and not the Ca that react with the H to adjust pH. I have been trying to tell ones on here, but nobody listens!

There are a few on here that think you can adjust pH by adding K, Mg and other cations.

[quiet]

For example, if the lawn is transpiring 1" of water per week apply 1/2" per cycle 3-4 days apart. That also provides good compatibility between the lawn and other landscape plants like trees that are susceptible to root rot, not to mention keeping the water bill to a minimum.

For a blanket statement, I will have to disagree and that was the point of the Texas A&M article. You're better off watering that 1/2" each on 2 consecutive days, rather than spacing waterings apart. But I will concede that that article addresses soil structure, and that may be the better alternative for sandy or loam soils.

I never see anything other than clay!

I have my customers water 1/2" on consecutive days. In the dead heat of summer: 1/2" each on 2 consecutive days, then 2 days no watering, then one day, again at 1/2", then no water for 2 days.

But I must qualify this by saying I deal with tif 419, zoysia, and just few St. Augusting lawns. All of these are deep rooting grasses.

[PHS]

Quiet,

You're right, I was just throwing that out as an example. Everyone has to decide what works for their soil types and how much water they can put down at one time. The part that I believe is the key issue, and sounds like you would agree, the ground needs some time to dry out in between cycles.

[quiet]

Quiet,
Everyone has to decide what works for their soil types and how much water they can put down at one time. The part that I believe is the key issue, and sounds like you would agree, the ground needs some time to dry out in between cycles.

Exactly, and you said it more concisely and specifically than I did.

[muddstopper]

When you say high Ca lime are you talking Gyp....because Mudstopper said in a post a few weeks ago that adding Gyp didn't change soil tilth.



What levels of "over fertilizing" are you talking about? Why would someone add this much fert anyway?


Rcreech, you are misquoteing what i said about Gypsum. I never said that gypsum would not improve tilth. I said that if gypsum was used to raise calcium levels, (and for the sulfur as in the way you use gypsum), and that calcium levels where already low, that gypsum would only make the soil harder as the combination of Ca and S drives off the other cation nutrients. The end result is hard "COMPACTED", soils. Gypsum is a great source of Calcium and Sulfur as long as you have adequate Mg, and K levels, and will improve soilt tilth is used properly, but continued use of Gypsum without monitoring the other nutrient levels can affect the availability of other nutrients and result in soil that is less fertile than it was before the Gypsum appications and actually result in a lowering of the soil Ph, even tho gypsum claims to be ph neutral. .

Further, You keep bringing up CaCO3 changing ph while Ca wont. You are 100% correct, but, if you dont have Ca, you will never have CaCO3. Calcium is your source for CaCO3 and therefore adding calcium will affect the ph of the soil.

As for over fertilizing, it happens everyday. You want the lawn green, just add N or Iron, the amounts dont matter, I just want a green lawn. the accumilation of all these fertilizations results in soil that has been over fertilized, one application at a time.

[rcreech]

Further, You keep bringing up CaCO3 changing ph while Ca wont. You are 100% correct, but, if you dont have Ca, you will never have CaCO3. Calcium is your source for CaCO3 and therefore adding calcium will affect the ph of the soil.

As for over fertilizing, it happens everyday. You want the lawn green, just add N or Iron, the amounts dont matter, I just want a green lawn. the accumilation of all these fertilizations results in soil that has been over fertilized, one application at a time.

I thought we were done with all of this.....but I guess not!

Adding Ca will not change soil pH....and that is why Gyp doesn't and neither does any other Ca source by itself. My point is that Ca alone doesn't change pH because it takes the C03 to react with the H to remove it from the CEC. How can you argue that? If Ca is so important in changing pH then how is Dol lime such a good lime source?

Nitrogen is very volatile and doesn't stick around long....so again how does one over apply over time to create enough compaction on a lawn when as I said I am applying over 200 units at one time for corn? I still haven't seen any data to support this.

This is a good read:

http://www.sdfern.com/lime.htm

[turfnh2oman]

Go get em" Creech - LOL.

Alwrightalready.

Let's try this tone on for size shall we.

First, residential or commercial... how many of these lawns have GOOD soils ? Granted the word "good" is open for a vast array of opinion. Secondly as for irrigation practices here's my rule of thumb and I've got the turf and irri. accounts glowing green and have been all [drought] season with NO disease problems to prove it. Yes , your soak down / soil watering cycle should be done at night and before anybody goes heave-ho on the disease developing theory just hang on a minute. A good turf manager checks his turfs and his irri system in question for output, performance, etc. so a "heavy" watering cycle's run time can be determined so you DON'T HAVE standing water or not enough or too much runoff, etc. If you have'nt had disease problems in the past chances are closer to nil' that you're all the sudden going to start having them especially on turfs that have been established a few years.
Anyway, heavy [proper amount] watering at night for all those good agronomic reasons like evapotranspiration verses respiration, etc. gives the soils [which, let's face it are usually crappy anyway] a chance to absorb the water and become available to the plant. Then 1 to 3 short burst "cooling cycles" scattered throughout the heat of the day depending on the heat factor. Now to WHOMEVER said that you don't water during the day, that is a double-edged question and for you I have the perfect double-edged answer. TRUE, you don't water during the day, but you DO COOL during the day - BIIIIIIIIIG DIFFERENCE MY FRIEND. We all know what watering heavily during the day can bring on with the first thing being turf scald. Nothing will thin out and destroy a turf stand quicker.
Those who think they can literally soak down an area and then not water again for a day or two are stupid and yes I said it and meant it, STUPID !
Soooo, the moral here is give the plant what it needs not what you think.
A grass plant has never lied to me yet. It tells me everything it needs. All I have to do is KNOW what I'm looking at. And if you DON'T know what you're looking at, either a) ask a professional b) become a professional or c) get out of the business.
This business get's ruined more and more by the ones that THINK they know what they're talking about and really don't know squat. No wonder customers are pessismistic and on the defense all the time. I'd be pissed too if I called 3 yo-yo's and paid each one of them to solve a problem and came out worse than when I started.

[Harley-D]

So let's hear it. Here's the situation. 15k sqft yard. 6 zones.
How do you tell a customer to set his irrigation?
15-20min/zone every other day and cooling cycles everyday?
How will he afford your service when he's paying 600/month in water bills.

I'm curious because you did't say anything about the soils ability to absorb water and at what rate. Even give an average application rate per zone.
I've got an idea but was curious how you can just look at a lawn and know what it needs.

I'm renaming you the "lawn whisperer" LOL
I agree with your customers being pessimistic theory very much. :)

[regularguy]

I agree with the turfnh2oman that watering heavy at night is the best practice, but the water cycle should only begin after the evening dew sets in. In Northern Illinois we usually see the dew set in at about 11:00 to 12:00 pm and the turf stays wet until about 9:00 am the following day, this is your prime watering opportunity during these hours as the turf is already wet. Everyone will agree that to reduce the chances of disease you must maximize the amount of time that the turf plant stays dry. I water my lawn every other day and start the program at 12:30 it usually finishes up around 8:00 am in the morning and I have had pretty good success with this program.

[Harley-D]

hey regular, what's your water bill? also, do you think you could water less frequently if the roots of your turf were deeper in the ground? I think we can agree with university research how much water turf needs. The problem is getting water to the turf and how much and at what timing? Where is the soils research and data for permability and water holding capacity. Also consider capillary movement. We need a soil composition expert to jump in here. IMO

[turfnh2oman]

Well, let's see here. A few good points were brought up. The rules I go by are these. Why do we need a soil composition expert ?! First, a man without a pocket knife in this business is useless. If my asst. comes to work without his I send him home. That and / or a soil probe are essential. If you can't tell what type of soils you have by visual investigation then you're in trouble. Secondly, watch each zone of sprinklers run as we all know every zone on every system is different due to pressure, output, etc. Thirdly, if a turf area needs "X" amount of water per day [say for example 20 minutes total on a rotary zone] Is it better to distribute 20 minutes all at once or divide it into one twelve minute [heavy] and two fours [lighter] as better used when then plant and soils can utilize it better [hence, more available] ??
Granted, this next statement may be my own BUT, I've learned and read and know how to read all the numbers and data too. You know, precip rates at certain psi's and gpm, etc. and from a soils standpoint a loamy sand verses a sandy loam on a soil report and that's all great and fine but there's only one thing I trust that makes me sleep easy at night and that is HANDS - ON AND VISUAL BABYSITTING.
Let's see here, you're a supt. at a golf course with USGA spec built greens. You know all the information available, soil types, perc. rates, drainage gpm and all that other stuff. You have an irrigation system of the highest and most modern caliber wih moisture sensors, weather barometers and all that crap, okay ? Now let me ask you this, would you sleep easy at night relying on all this crap that is supposed to jive and all the numbers look good and perfect, etc. or would you go out and visually inspect your greens regularly and make adjustments based upon conditions and what you see ???? Hey Mr. Supt. [says the greens chairman] why are all of our greens brown ? What are you going to say ? Well sir, the $ 300,000.00 worth of high tech irrigation equipment you gave me says everything's fine ?! And the guy at the USGA says the greens were built perfectly to spec ?!
Grass will always tell you more than any test results. Granted when it comes to fertility levels, etc. I do lean more towards a soil test's recommendation but if it says that a pound of this or that is needed I think I would start off with a 1/4 or 1/3 lb. and go from there. Better safe than sorry. I don't run out and recommend soil test reports for every situation though. Through digging and probing on my own first usually tells me what is required.
As for water bills I don't care what they are. My first priority is the turf's condition as THAT is MY job.
As for short roots in crap soils without deep and regular aeration which is NOT done in the average lawn and landscape industry you are never going to achieve "deep" rooting so you mainly manage what you have with the best of circumstances. Also, you forgot to mention regular topdressing with a proper [desired] soils mix over the course of a few years to incorporate better perc. rates, aeration and capillary action which is also never done in the L & L industry.
One more thing, proper aeration is not achieved with a walk or pull behind "spoon type" aerifier especially in the average homeowner or commercial lawn unless you're planning on making a war zone. Most companies just run over the lawn once and leave the plugs sitting on the ground. What the hell good is this ? Besides, they don't penetrate enough [deeply] to matter anyway. One to 2 inches depth is not aerifying when you already have one to two inches of roots [shallow] anyway. What is that helping ? Answer, nothing.

[regularguy]

Harley-D, I have a source of legal surface water that is unlimited although not very clean, I simply have to pay for the energy to pump the water to my lawn and the upkeep on the equipment. The highest electricity bill I ever had was $40 and that was during a drought. That being said the biggest concern for me is having a very nice lawn, stellar comes to mind, I could water all day everyday if I wanted but I have concerns about disease and also about driving my nutrients down past the root level of my turf. I mow high and I believe that affects the length of the turf grass roots a great deal, maybe if your roots were deeper you would not have to water as often, for me this did not yield the quality of turf that I desired, of course everyone is different. It seems to me that if you could the best method would be to spoon feed small amounts of water and nutrients often to the relatively shallow turf grass plant. Just my humble opinion.

[NattyLawn]

Hi All,

New to this site but it looks interesting. I was reading through this thread and it seems to me that there are a couple issues that haven't been raised.

It's not the soil fertility per se that can lead to compaction but rather the repeated use of fertilizers with a high salt index. Gerally speaking water soluble fertilizers and products like that have a much higher salt index than high quality slow realease fertilizers. Those salts displace Ca and Mg off of the soil colloids (into the soil solution as has been mentioned) which results in a degredation of the soil structure.

In soils where there is a high accumulation of salts, gypsum can in fact help to improve structure. Not by the addition of Ca but the SO4's bonding to Na, K, etc (the elements that displaced the Ca in the first place) to form solids which can then be leached out of the soil (similar to lime adjusting pH by the CO3 bonding to and neutralizing H+ ions).

Over fertilizition or just poor fertilizing practices can cause other problems too but I just wanted to comment on the compaction issue.

As for the irrigation, the articles were primarily concerned with 1x per week and almost everyday watering. Can't there be a happy medium :) ? I'm not a full time lawn guy but I do work with them. Honestly most of my professional carreer has been working as an arborist but I find that allowing 2-3 days in between irrigations produces a high quality and durable turf with a minimum of weed and disease problems. For example, if the lawn is transpiring 1" of water per week apply 1/2" per cycle 3-4 days apart. That also provides good compatibility between the lawn and other landscape plants like trees that are susceptible to root rot, not to mention keeping the water bill to a minimum.

Great post. All this talk about overfertilizing and you're the first to mention anything about soluble salts having a direct cause in compaction. There's a reason why synthetic fert companies aerate and overseed every year besides the obvious monetary factor.

[muddstopper]

I thought we were done with all of this.....but I guess not!

Adding Ca will not change soil pH....and that is why Gyp doesn't and neither does any other Ca source by itself. My point is that Ca alone doesn't change pH because it takes the C03 to react with the H to remove it from the CEC. How can you argue that? If Ca is so important in changing pH then how is Dol lime such a good lime source?

Nitrogen is very volatile and doesn't stick around long....so again how does one over apply over time to create enough compaction on a lawn when as I said I am applying over 200 units at one time for corn? I still haven't seen any data to support this.

This is a good read:

http://www.sdfern.com/lime.htm

Rcreech, as soon as you can explain to me how you can get CaCO3 without having Calcium present, I will concede you are correct. Until then here is some statements from other sites for you to review.

Calcium content is not the same as neutralizing value. Neutralizing value is determined by the combined amounts of calcium carbonate (CaCO3), magnesium carbonate (MgCO3), and other neutralizing constituents in the liming material.

CALCIUM CARBONATE (CaCO3) - A compound which contains calcium combined with carbonate. It occurs in nature as limestone, marble, chalk, marl, shells, and similar substances.

CALCIUM CARBONATE EQUIVALENT (CCE) - Expression of the acid-neutralizing capacity of a carbonate rock relative to that of pure calcium carbonate (e.g. calcite). It is expressed as a percentage. For pure calcite the value is 100%, pure dolomite the value is 108.5%. Actual CCE of most limestone will vary from these percentages due to impurities in the rock, and the fact that most commercially available limestones have a mixture of calcite and dolomite rather than either in its pure form.

DOLOMITE- Limestone that contains magnesium carbonate (MgCO3) in an amount approximately equivalent to the calcium carbonate content in the stone. Limestone containing magnesium carbonate in lesser proportions is referred to as magnesian limestone or dolomitic limestone. Pure dolomite is 54.3% CaCO3 and 45.7& MgCO3 or expressed another way, is composed of 30.4% CaO, 21.8% magnesia (MgO), and 47.3% CO3.

DOLOMITIC LIMESTONE- Limestone that contains from 10%, but less than, 50% dolomite, and from 50-90% calcite. The MgCO3 content of dolomitic limestone may range approximately from 4.4-22.6%.

You will find reference to at least four kinds of lime in agriculture: crushed limestone [Calcium carbonate (CaCO3)], dolomitic lime [Calcium-magnesium carbonate (CaCO3--MgCO3)], burned or quick lime [Calcium oxide (CaO)], and slake or hydrated lime ]Calcium hydroxide (Ca(OH)2)]. Of these, dolomitic lime appears to be the best additive to raise pH and promote growth

And this last quote is taken from the link you provided and it too states that CaCO3 is Calcium Carbonate. Now quit splitting hairs about calcium effecting ph of the soil. Calcium will react with the moisture in the soil to form the CaCO3. If you dont have any Calcium present, the reaction cant take place. Period. There are many forms of carbonate, but Calcitic lime and Dolomitic lime is chosen because these lime choices contain Calcium or Calcium+Magnesium. Both of which will form CO3.

Gypsum doent effect ph because the calcium is already attracted to the Sulfur and doesnt form CO3.

[Harley-D]

First, a man without a pocket knife in this business is useless. If my asst. comes to work without his I send him home.

If your pocket knife solves your day to day problems, congrats.

That and / or a soil probe are essential. If you can't tell what type of soils you have by visual investigation then you're in trouble. Secondly, watch:confused: each zone of sprinklers run as we all know every zone on every system is different due to pressure, output, etc.

I totally agree but don't you think that may be affecting your fertilizer use or the overall health of the turf. Remember, looks can be deceiving.

Thirdly, if a turf area needs "X" amount of water per day [say for example 20 minutes total on a rotary zone] Is it better to distribute 20 minutes all at once or divide it into one twelve minute [heavy] and two fours [lighter] as better used when then plant and soils can utilize it better [hence, more available] ??

OK. First of all. In general, most residential rotary spray heads emit between .20 and .25 gals of water in it's coverage area per hour. Depending on your soils texture and field capacity, that may be enough to wet down to .25 to .75 inches in the soil. Here, it's .2 inches/hour of watering. That's alot of watering to get down even 2 inches.

Granted, this next statement may be my own BUT, I've learned and read and know how to read all the numbers and data too. You know, precip rates at certain psi's and gpm, etc. and from a soils standpoint a loamy sand verses a sandy loam on a soil report and that's all great and fine but there's only one thing I trust that makes me sleep easy at night and that is HANDS - ON AND VISUAL BABYSITTING.

Grass will always tell you more than any test results. Granted when it comes to fertility levels, etc. I do lean more towards a soil test's recommendation but if it says that a pound of this or that is needed I think I would start off with a 1/4 or 1/3 lb.

of what? N?P?K? Do you worry about salt index? Maybe that salt is using up alot of that water or taking it from the grass once there.

and go from there. Better safe than sorry. I don't run out and recommend soil test reports for every situation though. Through digging and probing on my own first usually tells me what is required.

You really are the "Lawn Whisperer" I would love to be able to dig up a handful of soil and just "tell" what it needs. LOL

As for water bills I don't care what they are. My first priority is the turf's condition as THAT is MY job.
As for short roots in crap soils without deep and regular aeration which is NOT done in the average lawn and landscape industry you are never going to achieve "deep" rooting so you mainly manage what you have with the best of circumstances. Also, you forgot to mention regular topdressing with a proper [desired] soils mix over the course of a few years to incorporate better perc. rates, aeration and capillary action which is also never done in the L & L industry.

Most LCO's companies in virginia have at least two core aerators. If they don't, they will eventually. If you topdress and water like your saying, your lawns would be dead inside of a year no matter what fert program you use. You have got to get some root depth and 1 inch isn't gonna cut it. And if the roots are half inch or less, try 4-6 days of temps at about 96-100 and see what happens. Dead or disease inside of two days. This year has been bad but it's the usual here. Has to be the hardest part of the country to keep lawns substantially healthy.

One more thing, proper aeration is not achieved with a walk or pull behind "spoon type" aerifier especially in the average homeowner or commercial lawn unless you're planning on making a war zone. Most companies just run over the lawn once and leave the plugs sitting on the ground. What the hell good is this ? Besides, they don't penetrate enough [deeply] to matter anyway. One to 2 inches depth is not aerifying when you already have one to two inches of roots [shallow] anyway. What is that helping ? Answer, nothing.


I wish we could get up to two inch core's here when aerating. Aerating is not just for root development. It's used for overseeding, getting "air" to the roots and relieving compaction. Probably nothing you have to worry about, lucky. I give you alot of credit and believe that your customers are happy. That's all that really matters. Point being watering amounts and frequencies depend on soil types, weather, turf, and application method. Not what the grass looks like that day.

[muddstopper]

I wish I could pick up a hadfull of soil and tells what it needs. Truth is I cant and nobodyelse can either. I Have seen sands with CEC in the 12-15 range and red clays in the 9-12 range. Just looking at either soil you wouldnt be able to tell which soil had the most ability to hold nutrients. You cant tell by site or feel what a soil needs. You might be able to guess pretty close, but its still just a guess. Experience will play a large part in how accurate your guess is.

During this hot weather, I prefer to water at nite, just to the point of having runoff and forgo daytime watering altogether. I wont water everynite either and fequency of watering cycles is dependant on just how much water I am able to put down before runoff occurs.

Grass with short roots will need more perodic watering cycles and smaller amounts of water at one time. The deeper the roots, the less frequant the watering cycles and the more water that can be applied at each cycle.

Throw mowing height into the equation and then you have a new ballgame. Grass mowed short allows moisture to evaporate from the soil at a much faster rate than grass that is mowed tall. Short grass also has less ability to support long roots because of the reduced ability to make food. Less food . less roots, and less ability to get water from the soil. Shorter grass will need more water than grass that is mowed tall.

[rcreech]

Thanks for all the definitions.

Gyp doesn't change pH because it is Ca and doesn't contain the C03. If you say Ca changes pH then why doesn't Gyp?

That was my point! Yes Ca is part of the reaction...but it is the C03 that actually removes the H which is truely causing the acidity in the first place.

You stated the following in your last post:

"Calcium will react with the moisture in the soil to form the CaCO3. If you dont have any Calcium present, the reaction can't take place."

How does Ca react with H20 and creat CaC03? You are totally wrong! Show me how this works chemically?

How does Ca + H20 = CaC03?

If this is the case....why are we spending money for all this lime?

I am now DUMBER for discussing soils with you and I am not going to take this any farther. I truely think you are messing with me with all the stupid crap you are posting on here.

Have fun, and remember to keep your fertility levels low so you don't have to worry about compaction!