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GravelyGuy
08-14-2007, 02:52 PM
I am shopping for a new truck right now. I don't want to get anything older than a 2004. The newer the better. I am looking to spend around $25,000.

I really want to get a diesel, but all I have ever had was gas, so I don't know what to watch out for when buying a used one. Any tips, or things I should listen for, whatever would be appreciated.

I am leaning towards Ford right now because I really like the looks of them, but I am not opposed to Chevy or GMC. No Dodge for me.

Also, I have found that with all of the rebates etc. right now that I could get a brand new 3/4 tone 2007 gas truck for the same price as a used diesel with 40-60,000 miles on it.

Thanks for the help.

Gravel Rat
08-14-2007, 02:58 PM
How much driving do you do and what are you doing with the truck. People buy diesel trucks because they want a diesel truck. Buying a diesel truck for mileage really doesn't apply anymore the fuel mileage isn't that great.

GravelyGuy
08-14-2007, 03:26 PM
When you ask how much driving I do, this will be my daily driver for personal and business so it will see quite a few miles. As far as work, this truck will be used to haul around my 7'x16' tandem every day. Along with my mowing setup, I need something that can handle skids etc. with no problem, but this will not be on a daily basis though. yet...

TXNSLighting
08-14-2007, 03:32 PM
if a powerstroke, get an oasis report. start it and see how it feels, if its ruff idling, dont buy it. if its smooth chances are its good. but that oasis report will tell you all you need to know. if its had lots done to it, its a crap one. if its only had minor stuff then its good. and if its got gauges and stuff, prob not one to go for. and buy it off a ford lot. not a dodge or gm lot.

All_Toro_4ME
08-14-2007, 03:40 PM
if a powerstroke, get an oasis report. start it and see how it feels, if its ruff idling, dont buy it. if its smooth chances are its good. but that oasis report will tell you all you need to know. if its had lots done to it, its a crap one. if its only had minor stuff then its good. and if its got gauges and stuff, prob not one to go for. and buy it off a ford lot. not a dodge or gm lot.


Stupid question texanlawnandlandscape but why buy it from ford lot and not dodge or gm lot?

TXNSLighting
08-14-2007, 03:43 PM
Well i say that because generaly if they traded it at a gm or dodge lot, they had problems, and didnt want to deal with it anymore. i bought my 6.0 powerstroke from a dodge lot and it was in the shop every week. they traded it cuz it was problematic. obviously thats not going to be every truck, but thats a big reason people trade for another brand.

GravelyGuy
08-14-2007, 03:53 PM
What is an Oasis report? Should any dealer be able to provide one of these?

The bad thing about buying used is I will probably end up having to drive to another state to pick the truck up. This makes test drives difficult.

Thanks...

DieselOnly
08-14-2007, 04:30 PM
Go for the Duramax, it won't do you wrong, pricey, but good. I myself, perfer the GM 6.5 and 12 valve Cummins.

TXNSLighting
08-15-2007, 08:44 AM
What is an Oasis report? Should any dealer be able to provide one of these?

The bad thing about buying used is I will probably end up having to drive to another state to pick the truck up. This makes test drives difficult.

Thanks...

yes, any dealer can get that. if they say they cant their lyin. why out of state?

TXNSLighting
08-15-2007, 08:45 AM
Go for the Duramax, it won't do you wrong, pricey, but good. I myself, perfer the GM 6.5 and 12 valve Cummins.

i cant believe anyone likes the 6.5...

All_Toro_4ME
08-15-2007, 09:17 AM
Well i say that because generaly if they traded it at a gm or dodge lot, they had problems, and didnt want to deal with it anymore. i bought my 6.0 powerstroke from a dodge lot and it was in the shop every week. they traded it cuz it was problematic. obviously thats not going to be every truck, but thats a big reason people trade for another brand.

Appreciate the explanation texanlawnandlandscape. Thx

TXNSLighting
08-15-2007, 01:08 PM
no problem!

KTO Enterprises
08-15-2007, 08:04 PM
Pull trany dipstick and check the fluid. Same as a gasser, if its brown or burnt smelling it has not been maintained.

Next Check coolant. It should be nice and clean. Run your finger inside the recovery bottle under the neck to feel for an oily buildup. Any oil means potential problem.

Look under for leaks or signs of pressure washing. Newer trucks should be relatively clean as for oil leaks. Shiny paint on the underside is a sign of freshly cleaned oil residue.

Check brake pads, and check for axle seal leaks.

Try to stay away from used 4 wheel drives. Too much chance for previous owner abuse.

Look at the brake pedal cover. a lot of wear on it is a sign of lots of city driving. City driving is a lot harder on a diesel that longer trips. I would rather have a diesel truck with 200k that spent its entire life on the highway with an RV hooked to it than one with 100k that was a grocery go getter and used to haul the kids to soccer practice and the mall.

mower&more1986
08-15-2007, 11:23 PM
i had a 94 chevy with 6.5 diesel. it got really good fuel mileage.
but i had to replace the fuel injector pump , it leak oil and had an exhaust leak. but i found used diesel are too expensive maintain and the new one are just more money than i will have. i had sell it because i could not afford to put anymore money in a old truck. but look back now and wish kept it
it may of not had the power of a bigger diesel. but it had good fuel mileage
i may think about a another one if i come across a newer one.

TXNSLighting
08-16-2007, 08:24 AM
older diesels arent money pits, just the 6.5's and 6.2 chevy diesel. old cummins and powerstrokes are absolutely great engines. and talk about quick trucks, the old 6.9 international was a very fast truck with some updated injectors and pump. and it only cost about 3-400 bucks!

DieselOnly
08-16-2007, 08:04 PM
The 6.2 and 6.5 aren't even money pits. Trust me, I know, I have one.

DieselOnly
08-16-2007, 08:08 PM
i cant believe anyone likes the 6.5...


Why? I, myself like the 6.5. Torque of a big block, milage of a compact. One we have has been great, and it's a '94 1500. We must'a got a good one.

KTO Enterprises
08-16-2007, 08:15 PM
The 6.2 and 6.5 aren't even money pits. Trust me, I know, I have one.

you have obviously never driven it.

Not only can they not pull a greasy string out of a cats azz, but they are overall junk. It was a converted gas motor, thats where Gm went wrong.

Both the electronic and mechanical injection systems were terrible.

Fuel leaks at the filter are prevelent.

Overall not well built engines

Gravel Rat
08-16-2007, 10:09 PM
The 6.5 GM has to be the biggest turd ever built they definatly live up to the converted gasser idea. The electronic injection pump on the 6.5 is expensive to replace and don't last long.

A 454 is a far far superior engine compared to a 6.5. Only now that the Duramax engine is giving GM a better name again in the diesel market.

The 6.2 was a gutless pig but it got good fuel mileage and lasted a decent length of time.

TXNSLighting
08-16-2007, 10:13 PM
Why? I, myself like the 6.5. Torque of a big block, milage of a compact. One we have has been great, and it's a '94 1500. We must'a got a good one.

you definately did...if theres such a thing. theres a reason you only see about 1 a month....the majority are scrap metal now. nothing good about them.

mower&more1986
08-16-2007, 10:55 PM
I'm looking at a 1988 ford f350 crew cab 4x4 7.3 non turbo diesel 6 speed manual transmission. the body looks about average the guy wants 2000
i still have to look at and drive it. the problem i have i have never driven a
manual transmission pick up before but i have a Class A CDL and drive manual
transmission in a semi truck which i double clutch. I like both Ford and GM
just found them both to great when kept in good condition and maintenance

DieselOnly
08-16-2007, 11:35 PM
The 6.2 and 6.5 are not converted gassers. The only "converted gasser" was the 350 Olds. The 6.2 was designed in the late 70's by the then Detroit Diesel Division of GM. It was first marketed in 1982 model year C/K trucks, blazers, and Suburbans. The 6.5, first released in 1992 was redesigned from the 6.2 to use a turbo, and have slightly higher displacement. The 6.5 was available both turbo, and N/A. I have driven the 6.5 and my parents '07 6.0 gasser. I, personally, love the 6.5, and would trade it for nothing. If you want to see other people that love their 6.5's, visit http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=21.

The only thing wrong with electronic injection on them is that, in stock location, the fuel selinoid driver, or the brain of the pump, overheats. That is a simple fix, mount it outside the engine compartment, cheap, easy, and provides many trouble-free miles. I have not seen any fuel leak cases anywhere on any of the 3 6.5 forums I belong to, and participate in. If you'd like to post any other mis-informed information, I'd be happy to tell you the real stories. As far as having no power, it wasn't designed for power, but fuel milage. I know of many people that went from a 454 to a 6.5, and say they'll never go back.

jifaire
08-17-2007, 12:07 AM
Man, some people will believe anything...

1] the 6.5 TD is NOT a converted gas engine. It is an IDI design from Detroit Diesel, built around a light-duty diesel template. Life expectancy with reasonable maintenance is up to 300,000 miles without rebuilding

2] In stock form, the 6.5 outputs between 190-220 hp @2600 rpm and 430-450 ft-lb @1800rpm. It can be easily and cheaply modded to add 80-100 hp and 150-175 ft-lb torque without stressing the basic engine design or compromising endurance or longevity.

3] For years, the engines had an undeserved bad reputation for injection pump failure. In retrospect, this is largely because the 6.5 was an engine significantly ahead of its time, incorporating many computer-controlled enhancements, and few technicians or mechanics were adequately trained to work on them. One electronic component in particular, the Fuel Solenoid Driver, was responsible for injection timing events, and was prone to early failure due to its location in a hot-spot of the engine design. Failing FSDs were wrongly diagnosed as failing Injection Pumps.

As injection pumps were very expensive, GM proactively applied an 11-yr, 120,000 mile replacement policy. Although incompetent mechanics continued to wrongly diagnose the problems, there is no truth to the story that these were expensive events for owners.

Aftemarket enhancements included a remote mount for this FSD, which eliminated failures.

The above statements are fact, backed by years of evidence and data. The only people who still have misconceptions about the 6.5 Turbo series of diesels are those who don't know the engines personally, and are into repeating 'hearsay'.

Personally - I have a 13-yr old Chev with 300,000 km on it. It easily outpulls most stock 454 or 460 bigblock gas engines, while getting far better fuel mileage than the gas engine pickups. It also significantly outperforms stock pre-1999 Powerstrokes or 12v Cummins engines in Dodge or Ford trucks, in all areas, including fuel mileage.

The bottom line? Making such wildly inaccurate statements about these engines with no real factual basis says more about your credibility than anything else.

Have a nice day.

Gravel Rat
08-17-2007, 02:05 AM
Its funny I never seen somebody stick up for the 6.5 Chev many people that had them in my area hated them. Usually the engine lasts about 250,000kms (156,000 miles) and its time for a rebuild.

I knew of a 3500HD tow truck it seen more engine repairs than anything else. They installed a rebuilt it blew up installed another it had problem the last engine the crank snapped.

I have driven 6.5 Chev 1 ton dually flatdeck 4x4 with 5000lbs of firewood it is the most anemic piece of junk no power.

You ask any diesel mechanic what they think of the 6.5 they just laugh. When you have diesel mechanics with 30 years experience saying they are junk. The mechanics range from Cat mechanics to guys that work on heavy trucks.

Argue all you want.

DieselOnly
08-17-2007, 02:23 AM
We do know a diesel mechanic with that much expirience. All he said was "They're a bear to keep running." We, along with most 6.5's I've seen are at 180,000, no rebuild yet, and don't see one for many years to come. As long as you're reasonable, don't treat it like it's a rental, and understand it, it'll be a great engine that'll last a long time. As far as no power with 5000# of fire wood, don't know what to say. We have no prob with a 6000# camper, many tow 7000+# fifth wheels no problem.

DieselOnly
08-17-2007, 03:22 AM
Okay, here's the deal:

If you have a problem with the engine, DON'T BUY IT! That simple. Nothing says you have to like this engine, but jifaire and I choose to. There is a member on that board I linked to that tows 12-18,000# with his 6.5. As far as not seeing them more than once a month, I see them quite often. I bet you see many and don't even realize it, not easy to spot. Basically, there is no reason to bash the engine, those that like the engine, or anything to do with the engine when there are people that like, and are satisfied with it. Every engine has its strong and weak points. The 6.5 is a good daily driver for those that are familiar with it. If I towed a lot, I'd go with the 12 valve Cummins. If I had to do something the 6.5 can't (6.5 will do anything most will throw at it), I'd go to a Cummins. Also, once the FSD is relocated out of the engine bay, the only known 6.5 spicific stranding problem is solved. Also, the 6.5 is a cheap engine, can have 200 RWHP cheaply, and costs next to nothing to maintain. For the cost of one injector for the Duramax, I could have one and a half sets. I do not argue, I simply state the facts and move on.

In the words of the great Jon Bon Jovi:

Have a nice day.

TXNSLighting
08-17-2007, 08:33 AM
I'm looking at a 1988 ford f350 crew cab 4x4 7.3 non turbo diesel 6 speed manual transmission. the body looks about average the guy wants 2000
i still have to look at and drive it. the problem i have i have never driven a
manual transmission pick up before but i have a Class A CDL and drive manual
transmission in a semi truck which i double clutch. I like both Ford and GM
just found them both to great when kept in good condition and maintenance

6 speed?! You sure? Thats also the first year for the 7.3. how many miles on it?

TXNSLighting
08-17-2007, 08:43 AM
It also significantly outperforms stock pre-1999 Powerstrokes or 12v Cummins engines in Dodge or Ford trucks, in all areas, including fuel mileage.



Have a nice day.

ha! now thats funny!!

Its also pretty obvious its not a conversion gas engines, thats just dumb.

Turbine Doc
08-17-2007, 11:11 AM
I usually don't drift onto other boards, this one issue I was alerted to however; I feel compelled to dispell several myths & just plain untruths, 1st I'm owner of the 6.5 that will & does pull 18K loads I don't pull that heavy often but if I need to I will not think 2x about doing it. Iv'e got dyno slips displayed at Diesel Place if interested, that show that I'm making a true 200 rwhp from an engine designed for 195 Hp at crankshaft.

Pulls stronger in some cases or with; stock Cummins, Strokes, & early stock Dmax, on same dyno event I did beat a stock Cummins, that is posted as well at the site. (once those start getting upgraded the gap widens)

Was designed from ground up as a Diesel, one of the 1st production electronic Diesel fuel management systems in passenger/LD full size vehicle, easy starting & high mpg with 21:1 CR indirect injection clean burn system (fuel injected & lit in a pre combustion chamber vs direct spray on top of the piston)

It is the IDI that is critical, apples to oranges, IDI vs DI the other engines use. The IDI will never make the max power DI can make; but if one begins to understand the IDI, it can & doe,s make good reliable power to satisfy most requirements. (how many people actually need 250+ Hp in a streetable work truck) Yes want for play, but if your daily loads (emphasis on daily) require 250+ Hp; putting 250+ to a truck designed to haul 10K or less isn't smart; you need a bigger truck

Want a low $$$ Diesel to move a 1500 or 2500 class truck with more mpg than gas engine will provide 6.2/6.5 is ticket, also GM was only of the big 3 to put a Diesel in a full size 1500 series truck in any volume. I get medium duty capability in my upgraded K1500 (btw K1500s are same frame-brakes- etc as gasser 2500) but I don't have to pay extra to tax man for owning a HD rated truck.

6.2 & 6.5 1st are/were LD engines so one should never forget that, problem with these engines is owners not understanding them abusing them or asking them to do work the engine was never designed to do. That said it is very upgradeable for reasonably low cost, and can be made to some serious work.

This "gasser Diesel LOL" is also the SAME powerplant used in military Hummers in both 6.2 & 6.5 flavors. Those of us that Love this engine are very happy that many don't understand & don't like the 6.5; it means ready access to nearly free parts, for cost of "just get it out of here" $2000-4000 we can get whole trucks when all we wanted was the engine, part out the truck with stuff we don't want and get our money back.

Whup-D-do-dah you say, well considering I can get a whole set of performance injectors for about same cost of 1 stock injector on some, well maybe the 6.2/6.5 mite be looking into, again whole truck for cost of block of the others if engine gets toasted, (BTW push the others beyond design spec they will toast if not careful & rather quickly).

Boils down to economics pay mega $$$ for latest & greatest Diesels big 3 are pushing, or get an older 6.2/6.5 my preference is the 6.5, 6.2s are kinda weak unless adding turbo kit (6.2 does have good mpg 24 isn't uncommon); join up with a forum that knows more about them than dealers do ie Diesel Place & you won't be disappointed.

For the 6.5 one has got to realize it's limitations; my limit is ability to haul 18K of loaded trailer on occasion, ability to run 119 mph empty with about a 10ish second 0-60mph in a Diesel powered "old truck" I don't know maybe you guys are right; maybe this "gasser Diesel" is a piece of junk; NOTT !!!!!

BTW ever wan't to see what a "wussily gasser Diesel" can do; if on Ms Gulf Coast drop me a line I'll see about setting you up with an "up close & personal" education demonstrating "the little engine that can & does perform".

If by now I haven't convinced you the 6.2/6.5 is a workable option for you; let us know how to contact you; there are about 59,000 GM Diesel owning members at Diesel Place, a minimum of 1/3 of those are 6.2/6.5 guys if price is rite would love to take that "ole gasser Diesel" off your hands.

jifaire
08-17-2007, 11:30 AM
Here's a little video of some modified 6.5 Turbo Diesels...

Both running regular #2 fuel, no additives (nitrous or propane). This is that these guys drive around everyday.

http://www.dieselfever.com/videos/burnout%20005.mov

http://video.dieselplace.com/video/B481AB0B-A623-46B0-AABB-13CB8FFA08A6.htm

Both are modified much more than mine, but for less than $1000 of add-ons and a little work, mine pulls my 10K fifth wheel just fine and has no problem eating up stock pre-99 trucks when romping around empty. And I get much better fuel mileage doing it.

The big downfall to these trucks is that while you can easily set them up to be in the ballpark with the stock Dmax or Cummins, that's about the limitation. You can modify a Dmax or Cummins to go MUCH higher. As fo Powerstrokes, gimme a break... nobody can keep 'em out of the shop long enough to find out.

If you modify a 6.5 to pull the kind of power shown in the videos, you need to be real good at rebuilding, as both of these guys would attest. Push the 6.5 too far out of the box, and it breaks.

You ask any diesel mechanic what they think of the 6.5 they just laugh. When you have diesel mechanics with 30 years experience saying they are junk. The mechanics range from Cat mechanics to guys that work on heavy trucks.

You obviously are asking Diesel Mechanics that don't have expertise with the engine... as I said earlier, it was significantly ahead of its time compared to the other diesel engines of the day, and most mechanics didn't understand the innovations (and so mis-diagnosed problems when they came up ... even GM mechanics).

Mechanics who understand the engine love 'em... they are easy to work on, cheap to work on, easily modifiable for reliability and more than enough power.

Jim

Turbine Doc
08-17-2007, 11:46 AM
Was trying to edit post but timed out, wanted to add to that post K1500 Diesel is same as 2500 gasser frame.

How much does a 6.5 cost, well in 2000 my 98 K1500 with 37K on the clock when I bought it was $18K (blue book with options on it then $23-25k) now has 140K on clock I'm highly modded as I could afford it got another $5K there so 23K in a vehicle long time ago paid for that will out pull or with anything up to about 2003 stock profile truck.

Last year (2006) 130K on clock I bought a 98 6.5 C1500 Suburban $6500. I was after engine/trans for a play high 300+ Hp build (blue book for $15K in optimum condition wasn't that then almost is now), decided to fix it up, now at 140K 22-24mpg full size 9 passenger family/people mover.

Not quite capable as the K1500 truck, but I move people not tractors with it, but a zippier Suburban you will be hard to find, I've got about an extra $1500 in it; so $8K into a $15K high mpg full size people mover, not too bad on the ROI (return on investment).

I know of many from 6.2/6.5 land that have over 300K on their odometers, some lemon 6.2s/6.5s out there no doubt; but what engine/mfr does not have those. Most 6.2/6.5s with "issues" were owner caused from lack of knowlege/understanding, & poor dealer support from mechanics that thought those are "just converted gassers"

Turbine Doc
08-17-2007, 12:03 PM
Back to original topic here is something we put together in or Frequently Asked Questions area about deciding if a Diesel in your driveway is a good option granted we are pro GM at that site, but Diesels have thier own generic decision markers this thread may help sort out some of your concerns

http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?p=659254#post659254

jifaire
08-17-2007, 12:05 PM
You ask any diesel mechanic what they think of the 6.5 they just laugh. When you have diesel mechanics with 30 years experience saying they are junk. The mechanics range from Cat mechanics to guys that work on heavy trucks.

Hey, GravelRat ... the above post wasn't a slam at you or what you said, by the way ... I believe you are 100% correct in that statement.

My point is that these mechanics just don't know the engine, and think of it just like a smaller version of the ones they work on... and it's not.

A similar parallel would be to ask a gasser mechanic that works on Ford 460s and V10s what he thinks of the Honda VTEC engine... he would tell you it's junk, not knowing that it has more stock horsepower than the big blocks he's got ripped apart on his bench.

And the VTEC is more reliable and cheaper to run, too.

Turbine Doc
08-17-2007, 12:09 PM
In post 31 it just occurred to me a Diesel Suburban with right mods would allow you to not only move your equipment, also allow you to move the people to work the equipment in one haul. Diesel burbs are hard to come by those that have them don't turn loose of them. But many municipalities & state road crews have base model (work truck package) 1999-2000 vintage 6.5 Burbs come up for auction all the time under $5K, worst case scenario blown engine can be rebuilt under $5K, new crate engine is $8K or so, significantly less than the $25K budget estimate in 1st post.

Turbine Doc
08-17-2007, 12:14 PM
My point is that these mechanics just don't know the engine, and think of it just like a smaller version of the ones they work on... and it's not.



Yesterday through our board I was able to get a GM Service managers broken 6.5 truck back in business, a hole was rubbed into the main vacuum control line to the turbo's waste gate. GM shop full of "certified & trained" Diesel mechanics, they are not bad mechanics, just didn't know the 6.2/6.5. all have been schooled on Dmax so education is/was lacking.

mower&more1986
08-17-2007, 01:27 PM
I'm guessing he means 5 forward speeds and 1 reverse :confused:
I still got to go look at this truck.

Detroitdan
08-19-2007, 10:36 AM
ha! now thats funny!!

my 97 6.5 dually has no real power mods outside of 3.5 to 4 inch exhaust and wastegate manually controlled. I can out-accelerate a stock 12 valve. I pull 11k with no problem, in fact with less complaints than my buddies 96.5 Cummins dually. I've had 6k sand/salt mix in the bed, 950 lb Blizzard on the front and can still accelerate strong. So I feel very insulted when people who talk out of their azz call it a dog, or a converted gasser.
I will grant you this: there is much more aftermarket potential for Cummins motors, and my truck can't compare to a 2001 and up stock high powered diesel. But, it only cost me 15k, I own it now and a new one is 50k.
Like I said, my truck is pretty much stock, but once I change to a performance ECM, add an intercooler and hi-flow injectors I am going after the modified, piped Dodge Cummins truck that recently beat me by a half a truck length 0-60.