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View Full Version : 21" honda or toro?


txnbygod
08-22-2007, 10:24 PM
it's time for me to invest in a new unit....
i know what dealer i want to deal with so that's not an issue; he can get me either unit i decide on.
i'm liking both commercial units, but can't decide.
toro-- honda engine with the sleeve to help protect the crank if i hit something, no bbc, 1 gallon tank.
honda-- no sleeve to protect the crank, 1/2 gallon tank, bbc, shaft drive, blah, blah, blah.... $130 cheaper

i know everyone has their bias' on brands, but does anyone know something helpful to help me?

i'm buying tomorrow and still trying to figure which one. grrrrr. lol

SNAPPER MAN
08-22-2007, 10:36 PM
id get the toro, it has a 1/4 inch think cast alluminum deck so it can take a beating and the one gallon fuel tank will prove to be very convenient, i own two snappers but if i had to chose between toro and honda id take a toro hands down.

PTP
08-22-2007, 11:03 PM
Do a search under "dfw area landscaper" and you will find out about the Hondas. They are probably okay mowers (I have never owned one) but I can tell you that I put my Toro's through a lot and they are still ticking. By a lot I mean that they mowed thousands of properties with no major breakdowns.

lawnprosteveo
08-22-2007, 11:23 PM
Ive never owned a Honda, but I have had two Toro Proline 21's for nearly six years. I run them all summer and I use them some in the fall for leaves..I use them in the spring to scalp the bermuda. They have been rock solid. No problems, great cut. I dont think you can go wrong with the Toro.

LCPullman
08-22-2007, 11:26 PM
I'd recommend the Toro. You get the 1/4" aluminum deck, a really tough deck, plus it won't rust. The one gallon tank sure comes in handy, you don't have to fill up nearly as often. Not having the BBC means you have less parts to go bad. I personally think that the Toro drive system is as good as, if not better than the Honda shaft drive. Plus, with the Toro you essentially get infinitely variable without the need for a hydrostatic tranny. I don't think you can go wrong with the Toro.

txnbygod
08-22-2007, 11:35 PM
the toro i am wanting to replace is one of their upper end residential units with the personal pace. i know adjustment is part of the game, but i can't get it to move as fast as it used to.
are the commercial units prone to the same?

my toro has taken good care of me and i have been leaning that way from the start... and my dealer is happy selling me either unit, but he is swearing by his hondas. he is making them sound almost "maintance free" and more bang for the buck.
the idea of a mechanical drive sounds good to me, but can it just be one more thing i have to worry about?

Petr51488
08-22-2007, 11:44 PM
I just bought a honda commercial and its an awesome machine. THe one thing i don't like about it is that it's a little heavy. I have never used the toro, so i don't know. The ride on the 21'' is veryyyyy smooth. I swear it has a suspension somewhere. It cuts great, the transmission is great, and it bags great (just what i use it for). Like i said, i've used honda's non commercial line too, which is still great, but this commercial lawnmower is heavier than its non commercial.

LCPullman
08-22-2007, 11:53 PM
the toro i am wanting to replace is one of their upper end residential units with the personal pace. i know adjustment is part of the game, but i can't get it to move as fast as it used to.
are the commercial units prone to the same?

my toro has taken good care of me and i have been leaning that way from the start... and my dealer is happy selling me either unit, but he is swearing by his hondas. he is making them sound almost "maintance free" and more bang for the buck.
the idea of a mechanical drive sounds good to me, but can it just be one more thing i have to worry about?

Have you ever replaced the belt? The belt does need replacing from time to time. I usually replace it every season. If its been many seasons of hard work for the mower, the pulley on the engine may need replacing, a cheap $10 or so part.

To address your question more directly, I have never had problems with the top speed slowing down on the commercial mowers.

Another question, are you actually getting a commercial Honda? From what I have heard, Honda is not going to be making commercial ones any more. If the Honda you are looking at is not actually their commercial series, I wouldn't get it.

From what I have seen, the mechanical/shaft drive on the Hondas does not pan out to be any more reliable or problem free than the Toro belt drive. Plus, unless you get the hydrostatic transmission on the Honda, you don't have infinitely variable speed.

If you are getting the hydrostatic trans on the Honda, it's pretty expensive if it goes out.
I've never had any problems with the trans on the Toro.

From what I have seen, maintainence will be pretty similar on the two mowers. On both mowers you should have the same air filter/oil/oil filter change requirements. The belts on the Toro really don't need much adjustment, only very occasionally. They really are durable belts.

On the mechanical drive, gear boxes (like right angles) can have problems too.

I personally dislike the more complicated nature of the Honda BBC mechanism compared to the Toro BBC. But from what I have heard it works pretty well.

txnbygod
08-23-2007, 12:10 AM
yeah pullman, i am looking at commercial units in both brands.

might i be on the right track if i'm thinking toro with the honda engine? i believe its the same engine honda is using on it's own units. i hear the kai is a good engine of it's own right, but i'm thinking i like the ohv engine

lawnmaniac883
08-23-2007, 12:17 AM
The kawi is a OHV engine.

I just bought my new proline 21'' about a month and a half ago and it has performed very well. Good amount of power and a very solid unit, heavy at times but you will get used to the weight of it. The honda only comes with a 5.5 hp engine and the trannys apparantly wear out ALOT according to DFW.

The transmission on the proline is much better compared to the personal pace a much heavier tranny that has definate engagement and pulls the operator along with it. I recommend the toro !

txnbygod
08-23-2007, 12:34 AM
ok now....
let's say toro...
kawi or honda engine?
bbc or crank protection?
stock blades?
are factory rpm settings sufficient?

txnbygod
08-23-2007, 12:41 AM
ok now...
let's think toro then...
kawi or honda engine?
bbc or crank protection?
stock blades?
are factory rpm settings sufficient?
etc

LCPullman
08-23-2007, 12:50 AM
ok now....
let's say toro...
kawi or honda engine?
bbc or crank protection?
stock blades?
are factory rpm settings sufficient?

The Toro has a factory blade tip speed of 18,000 fpm. I think that should be sufficient.
The Kawi is more powerful, and would be my choice. But the Honda engine is a really good engine too. Both are OHV. But if you happen to prefer the Honda engine that is just fine.
One advantage of the Kawi is that it lists about $200 cheaper than the Honda engine. Actually, you should be able to get the Kawi with BBC for a similar price to your Honda engine without BBC.

Any BBC means more to maintain. If you really don't care about BBC, don't get it. If you think you want it or need it, get it.
The Toro BBC has some crank protection as part of the BBC.

greenerman
08-23-2007, 01:35 AM
Tried a Toro years ago, it literally fell apart! Had Hondas ever since. Without trying to sound like a sales rep, Honda builds some of the best products in the world.

deere615
08-23-2007, 12:08 PM
I would lean towards the Honda mower inmy opinion its a much stronger unit.

lawnmaniac883
08-23-2007, 12:20 PM
Toro -- kawisaki -- no bbc -- stock blades work fine for me whether mulching or bagging.

saw man
08-23-2007, 12:42 PM
Cast aluminum decks dont rust but they corode. Aluminum and water dont go good either. You can put a hole through a cast aluminum deck but not as easy with a steel deck.

I would go with whatever is easier for you to use. They both have good machines.

Honda is not going to stop making these mowers.

PTP
08-23-2007, 12:51 PM
Toro -- kawisaki -- no bbc -- stock blades work fine for me whether mulching or bagging.

That's what I used. Very pleased with it.

All_Toro_4ME
08-23-2007, 01:43 PM
I have both Honda Comm. and Toro Proline Commercial series. I'll keep this short and simple. Basically the Honda is good for leaves in the fall because it can't keep up with the high demand during growth season in the summer. Its in the shop now because of hydro and bbc. My Toro has never failed me and I use the h$ll out of it. It has the 6hp, Kaw engine with the 1 gal tank. I bought a 2nd one this year I was so pleased with their dependability. It seems the Kaw has more torque then Honda. Parts for Honda are very expensive,~
$300+ for the hydo tranny when it goes. Stick with Toro, you won't be let down.

john_incircuit
08-23-2007, 10:52 PM
I have not use a Toro in a while, so I really can't compare the two. Our Honda has now over 500 hrs (it has an hour meter), only problem we had was a broken weld at the front wheel adjuster. The tires still look good, it doesn't burn any oil and starts always on the first pull.

We primarily mulch fescue, and yes, it does a wonderful job. Never used another mower that can mulch that good.

LawnBrother
08-24-2007, 06:38 AM
My 21" Proline is a bulldog. 5 Years of hard use, and its still going strong. I've had a few minor annoyances with it, but no serious breakdowns. Very reliable IMO.

joed
08-24-2007, 07:12 AM
I have had both the Honda Commercial and Toro Commercial and hands down, the toro is the better unit. It has a much simpler design, by feathering the control bar, it acts like a hydro tranny although it isn't, it's a better mulcher and because, it's more user friendly, you'll find it to be a much more productive unit. The honda was an excellent bagger and a decent mulcher but way too slow, it's long length slowed you down on turns and it's got a awful design whereby you have to keep the tranny bar and blade brake bar both up against the main bar at all times. This a real pain when you are turning and going around obstacles.

As for an engine on the toro. The Kawasaki and Honda are good engines but the Kawasaki has significantly more power and torque. You will need that if you plan to mulch. The honda has a tendency to bog down in heavy grass and leaves. It consumes less fuel than than the Kawasaki, has no oil filter and thus has less maintenance but that doesn't outweigh the strength of the Kawasaki.

I'd also advise you to stay away from the BBC if you plan to mulch. It takes too much space under the deck and reduces the unit's mulching ability.

Either unit is good but the toro is better in my opinion. Good luck.

BobcatBoy06
08-24-2007, 07:21 AM
We have also had both the toro and honda, just get the toro you will like it better. All the reason why you should get one have already been listed.

txnbygod
08-24-2007, 08:19 AM
hey guys, i sure appreciate all your imput. i was supposed to buy yesterday, but had a truck overheat on a "quick" trip out of town. i spent most of the afternoon trying to get back....grrrr!
i keep hearing lots of good about the toro and a few concerns with the honda. i will use this unit to mulch alot of st. augustine and i think i'm hearing that toro might be better.
the toro w/the kai is definately the "better" priced unit.
any last minute advise left?
thanks again!

LawnBrother
08-24-2007, 11:46 AM
Here's some last minute advice. If you plan on cutting St. Aug. then consider getting the side discharge chute in case it gets high, unless you plan to bag. Toro offers one specifically for the proline 21 for about $40.

mitw44
09-07-2007, 10:06 PM
How much does a commercial 21 toro with kawi engine, self propelled, no bbc, cost?:walking:

lawnprosteveo
09-08-2007, 12:19 AM
How much does a commercial 21 toro with kawi engine, self propelled, no bbc, cost?:walking:
Mine are going on 5 yrs...but a buddy of mine just bought one at the beginning of this season...cost around $1000 I think.payup

IHusky
09-08-2007, 01:01 AM
My dealer told me that the honda 21" commerical now comes with plastic wheels and not steel wheels. WTF, commercial unit with plastic wheels.:dizzy: Can someone confirm this.

LCPullman
09-08-2007, 10:13 AM
My dealer told me that the honda 21" commerical now comes with plastic wheels and not steel wheels. WTF, commercial unit with plastic wheels.:dizzy: Can someone confirm this.

Yes, they come with Xenoy wheels which is plastic.

lawnprosteveo
09-08-2007, 12:01 PM
I dont think I would like that....the steel wheels have lasted me 5 yrs plus of heavy use...I wonder if the cogs are made of plastic. I helped a guy replace his rear wheels on a JD 21" (JX 75 I think) with plastic wheels... the parts inside were plastic too...pretty cheap.

IHusky
09-08-2007, 05:52 PM
I was considering honda too, when I had to replace my 21". When my dealer told me the Honda commerical had plastic wheels, I scratched it off the list real fast. I just think its total bull that honda is going to sell a commerical unit with plastic wheels. My cub cadet 21 has plastic wheels. What else is Honda going to skimp on.

ZachThurston
09-08-2007, 11:31 PM
I dont think I would like that....the steel wheels have lasted me 5 yrs plus of heavy use...I wonder if the cogs are made of plastic. I helped a guy replace his rear wheels on a JD 21" (JX 75 I think) with plastic wheels... the parts inside were plastic too...pretty cheap.

Thats wierd, my JA62 (step down from the JX75) has plasic wheels but THICK metal cogs...:dizzy:

S man
09-08-2007, 11:56 PM
Why not go with a snapper? They are cheaper and last just as long. I would say they're a good bang for the buck. I would never pay 1k or more for a toro or honda anymore.

MW-mowerman
09-21-2009, 11:09 PM
I'm in the same boat. time to replace that klunker. i have had problems in the past with the self propell unit not working well or at all when its wet. Also, it seems all belt driven models are difficult to pull backward. something that can give you a heat stroke here on the Gulf Coast. So far i have viewed the Toro, Honda, Ferris, and the Honda seems like the 'most likely to succeed". i like the hydrostatic tranny with unlimited speeds, unlike the others with 1,2 or 3 gears. Honda engines are pretty much bullet proof and they have a 2yr. COMMERCIAL warranty. it goes up to 4.5 mph and it seems to eliminate the reverse drag problem. I dont think the extra weight would be a problem with the new 6hp motor but the PRICE OMG the Price... almost $1200 bucks!!!! that is a pile of money for a push mower any way you look at it! I have seen some VERY disturbing posts against the Toro 22195. Even though they use the Honda engine they have a problem with it that they do NOT want to stand behind and I really have a problem with a company that will not stand by their equipment (even if the engine is made by another company) if they sell it, they should fix it! . I also looked at a Ferris (not impressed). Anyway, if anyone knows of a mower that wont slip when its wet and doesnt fight you when you want to pull it backwad. please let me know. thnx

S man
09-22-2009, 12:42 AM
I'm in the same boat. time to replace that klunker. i have had problems in the past with the self propell unit not working well or at all when its wet. Also, it seems all belt driven models are difficult to pull backward. something that can give you a heat stroke here on the Gulf Coast. So far i have viewed the Toro, Honda, Ferris, and the Honda seems like the 'most likely to succeed". i like the hydrostatic tranny with unlimited speeds, unlike the others with 1,2 or 3 gears. Honda engines are pretty much bullet proof and they have a 2yr. COMMERCIAL warranty. it goes up to 4.5 mph and it seems to eliminate the reverse drag problem. I dont think the extra weight would be a problem with the new 6hp motor but the PRICE OMG the Price... almost $1200 bucks!!!! that is a pile of money for a push mower any way you look at it! I have seen some VERY disturbing posts against the Toro 22195. Even though they use the Honda engine they have a problem with it that they do NOT want to stand behind and I really have a problem with a company that will not stand by their equipment (even if the engine is made by another company) if they sell it, they should fix it! . I also looked at a Ferris (not impressed). Anyway, if anyone knows of a mower that wont slip when its wet and doesnt fight you when you want to pull it backwad. please let me know. thnx

Don't get the honda engine model. Get the kawasaki.