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apples017
09-01-2007, 08:21 AM
Out of all the bobcat, case, gehl, asv etc etc. Who makes the most powerful compact track loader at the moment?

Who has the most break out force?
Who has the most pushing power?
and etc etc etc.

For digging in hard clay soils, really hard clay soils.

Some machines I can think of are. Posi track rc-100 and sr-80, bobcat t-300 these being the top models of those brands.

Peter
Australia

RockSet N' Grade
09-01-2007, 09:09 AM
I'm not so sure........but I think I am falling in love with the new Kitty-CAT 297C. I like the new cab design, no exposed cylinders.....time will be the judge on this one. Gehl has a little machine (7810) that has some growl behind it. I am sure someone will throw numbers at you here shortly........

AWJ Services
09-01-2007, 11:18 AM
The Takeuchi TL150 is a big machine.
My TL140 equals about everything out there in hyd power.
I am one of the few people who actually has maxed his machine out weight wise on purpose.LOL


but I think I am falling in love with the new Kitty-CAT 297C.

I agree.It is a nice machine.

Tigerotor77W
09-01-2007, 11:49 AM
Breakout force and pushing power both go to Deere (CT332).

AWJ Services
09-01-2007, 02:53 PM
Takeuchi rates theres at drawbar pull.

The Tl 140 11244
TL 150 13066
JD 332 11500 tractive effort

I do not understand JD's way of ratiing there breakout.
They rate the boom at 6650 and the bucket at 11,600 pounds.
Does that mean the boom will only lift 6650 pounds?

The 322 I demoed had a bucket breakout force almost equal too my TL 140 and it no where near the real world power that my TL 140 does.



If you go watch the videos on ASV"s website they actually out pull all machines.


For digging in hard clay soils, really hard clay soils.


We have very hard red clay soil here.
That is my machines primary job.
Bucket teeth only last me around 300 hours.
We go long periods without rain and have very hot summers.
The ground gets rock hard.
My machine does the job but the TL150 is a much better choice.

apples017
09-01-2007, 04:37 PM
I just had a look at the videos on the mbtractor website about the ASV Posi-Track SR-80. The videos look real convincing, seems to be better over mud and up hills than any of them.

The john deere website has some video comparisons but not against the SR-80.

Are there any other videos that I can download showing CTL performance?

RockSet N' Grade
09-01-2007, 04:56 PM
Apples017........regardless of the machine you get, I would modify the standard straight edge on the bucket right off the bat to give you what you need - and that is "cutting power". Either add teeth or a rezloh edge and that will make a world of difference......no hop, skip and jump like the straight edge does......Another easy way to get "specs" is go to the Case Equipment site, click on skid steers, and then they have a tab where you can enter 3 other models and will give a side by side comparison of specs........KSSS showed me that one.........by the way, where is KSSS.........oh yea, "shopping" with his wife I am sure :)

AWJ Services
09-01-2007, 10:46 PM
The videos look real convincing, seems to be better over mud and up hills than any of them.

Digging that hard Clay is different than pushing loose dirt.

I would modify the standard straight edge on the bucket right off the bat to give you what you need - and that is "cutting power". Either add teeth or a rezloh edge and that will make a world of difference......

No dealer in there right mind here would send a skid out on a demo without a tooth bucket.
It is strange seeing other guys(here on lawnsite) demoing these machines with a smooth bucket.
The soil conditions must be very different from here.

Grass Happens
09-01-2007, 11:10 PM
back before the housing boom stole alot of our good soil, we had 8-10" of nice, rich black soil. Now, not so much, but its not nearly as bad as the clay crud you southerners get to deal with.

RockSet N' Grade
09-02-2007, 12:07 AM
AWJ........most skids around here have smooth edge, alot of the contractors don't even know what a rezloh edge is and/or they don't even add a tooth on their buckets, let alone multiple teeth. We still have, for the most part here in the valley, dark rich farm ground. Even on the benches though I see most skids without teeth..........I get asked all the time about teeth.........

AWJ Services
09-02-2007, 12:16 AM
AWJ........most skids around here have smooth edge, alot of the contractors don't even know what a rezloh edge is and/or they don't even add a tooth on their buckets, let alone multiple teeth. We still have, for the most part here in the valley, dark rich farm ground. Even on the benches though I see most skids without teeth..........I get asked all the time about teeth.........

I'm Moving!:)


This time of year you can take a pick axe and swing as hard as you can and penetrate the ground an inch or so.
Thats with the small end.

I trenched about 500 ft of water line the other day about 20 inches deep.
Took me 2 hours with my skid.In the winter it takes 30 minutes.

Here we have so many big Trackloaders that most skid steer guys do not attempt any heavy excavation this time of year.
It really gets almost too hard too dig with a skidsteer.

apples017
09-02-2007, 01:18 AM
Yeah that's what the ground is like here at home, hard dry clay.

I had a look at the rezloh edge, never seen them before. How do they compare to the normal teeth seen on most buckets?

Its hard to choose between machines, the john deere websites has videos saying that thhey have the smoothest ride, it doesn't vibrate as much as other machines. They also say that you can see the cutting edge of the bucket easier. yet the ASV SR-80 can go through sand and mud better and has more ground clearance and tractive effort.

salopez
09-02-2007, 08:48 AM
I would have to say that a Gehl 7810 with VTS tracks would be bigger and stronger not to mention faster then any of the other spoken of here.

Construct'O
09-02-2007, 08:57 AM
Seriously !!!!!!! Sounds like you need to be looking for bigger iron then skidsteer!

Who knows maybe someday you will see mounted rippers on the back of skids like dozers has you guys that has to work in dinosaur poop!:dancing:

Here we just have have mud 80% of the time.Especial this year.

The good thing would be at least you wouldn't be bending up the grill in the rear.Might be a little tough on other things tho.Good luck

AWJ Services
09-02-2007, 09:58 AM
I would have to say that a Gehl 7810 with VTS tracks would be bigger and stronger not to mention faster then any of the other spoken of here.

In my limited experience I have found that too dig in this stuff a machine has too have a very stable strong boom or lift arms.
The Hyd have too be strong especially with the lift more so than the curl.
Pretty much all the skids with similar weight and rigid tracks will have similar tractive force in this type of conditions.
The Cat/ASV would probally have an advantage on clay because the tracks are more flexible(no steel).
But without the hyd power you end up breaking clay up and scooping the crumbs.
It is not point and dig as in some places ,so you end up manipulating the bucket alot too aggressively dig which make pilots a must in my opinion.


Its hard to choose between machines, the john deere websites has videos saying that thhey have the smoothest ride, it doesn't vibrate as much as other machines. They also say that you can see the cutting edge of the bucket easier. yet the ASV SR-80 can go through sand and mud better and has more ground clearance and tractive effort.

On hard clay none of them ride great.
Seeing the cutting edge is no big deal.
The sides of the bucket or more important too me.

Start demoing and let us no what you find.

Tigerotor77W
09-02-2007, 11:57 AM
Takeuchi rates theres at drawbar pull.

The Tl 140 11244
TL 150 13066
JD 332 11500 tractive effort

I do not understand JD's way of ratiing there breakout.
They rate the boom at 6650 and the bucket at 11,600 pounds.
Does that mean the boom will only lift 6650 pounds?

For tractive effort: I'm not sure how Deere computes it. But I'll agree that Takeuchis are either first or second. :)

Deere breakout force: I'm not entirely positive on this, either. A few thoughts:

1) 11,600 pounds is the force that is required to tip the machine with the bucket, but the hydraulics cannot lift this.

2) Deere does use a very short bucket, so they publish two specs -- with C&I bucket and with another (I forgot which) bucket.

3) The boom breakout means that the hydraulics can only lift 6,650 in the specified bucket, most likely.

4) Either that or that's when the machine actually tips. (Which contradicts with point #1.)

What I don't understand personally is how Deere can achieve 11,600 pounds of bucket breakout. IF this is the weight in the specified bucket that will raise the rear roller off the ground, then there's no use having this much force because you'll get the machine off the ground each time. If, however, this is hydraulically limited, then the 6,650 pounds is somewhat weak. Of course, the 6,650 pounds far exceeds the ROC of the machine, so even if the machine can lift it, it's unsafe. So I do have some questions about it.

But that being said, as I specified the first time, Deere specs look good on paper. I haven't gotten many answers as to "why," but that doesn't take away from how well the machine works for a lot of people... and counting.

AWJ Services
09-02-2007, 02:41 PM
For tractive effort: I'm not sure how Deere computes it. But I'll agree that Takeuchis are either first or second.

Deere breakout force: I'm not entirely positive on this, either. A few thoughts:

1) 11,600 pounds is the force that is required to tip the machine with the bucket, but the hydraulics cannot lift this.

2) Deere does use a very short bucket, so they publish two specs -- with C&I bucket and with another (I forgot which) bucket.

3) The boom breakout means that the hydraulics can only lift 6,650 in the specified bucket, most likely.

4) Either that or that's when the machine actually tips. (Which contradicts with point #1.)

What I don't understand personally is how Deere can achieve 11,600 pounds of bucket breakout. IF this is the weight in the specified bucket that will raise the rear roller off the ground, then there's no use having this much force because you'll get the machine off the ground each time. If, however, this is hydraulically limited, then the 6,650 pounds is somewhat weak. Of course, the 6,650 pounds far exceeds the ROC of the machine, so even if the machine can lift it, it's unsafe. So I do have some questions about it.

But that being said, as I specified the first time, Deere specs look good on paper. I haven't gotten many answers as to "why," but that doesn't take away from how well the machine works for a lot of people... and counting.


Well Said.


I am still waiting for somone else too put some forks on there machine and max the hyd out weight wise for comparison purposes.

dozerman21
09-02-2007, 03:33 PM
Well Said.


I am still waiting for somone else too put some forks on there machine and max the hyd out weight wise for comparison purposes.


I'd like too, I'm just not around many pallets where I can test it and know the exact weight. I don't have any means to weigh boulders and torn out concrete slabs.:)

I don't know about how all the specs are measured and figured. I can vouch for the Deere CT332 and say that it has "real world" power and it puts it too the ground too. The T-300 is a capable machine, but IMO doesn't have the grunt of the Deere, and it's a little outdated performance wise compared to some newer models.

Anyone buying a machine just needs to demo, bottom line. See what feels the best for you in your application. Check around at the dealers and see who is reputable, and see which company will stand by their product the best.

I agree with Construct'O about using the bigger iron. If you have room to work, a crawler loader would be your best bet for digging in the hard clay. It's the best bet to handle hard pushing and digging compared to a CTL.

BrandonV
09-02-2007, 05:42 PM
Who knows maybe someday you will see mounted rippers on the back of skids like dozers has you guys that has to work in dinosaur poop!:dancing:


i have a ripper for my 278B and it will make a world of difference if you digging to run that though every so often, causes it to break up a lot better. somtimes with the cat you'll get going too fast and it'll sheet the soil up over the bucket and into the cab- the ripper prevents that.

Tigerotor77W
09-02-2007, 05:51 PM
I'd like too, I'm just not around many pallets where I can test it and know the exact weight. I don't have any means to weigh boulders and torn out concrete slabs.:)

I don't know about how all the specs are measured and figured. I can vouch for the Deere CT332 and say that it has "real world" power and it puts it too the ground too. The T-300 is a capable machine, but IMO doesn't have the grunt of the Deere, and it's a little outdated performance wise compared to some newer models.

I'd like this, also. Someone with a lot of money really should just do a huge "equipment shootout" (not a shoot-out for large equipment, but a large showcase of equipment). Of course there'd have to be huge, huge tags saying that none of it would be ultimately scientific, but simple tests could get interesting. :D I bet a few of the manufacturers wouldn't be too happy with this...

On the second statement, I, too feel that way. I still really like Bobcat's lift arms, but I'm really wondering whether their machines can stand up to the performance envelope anymore. It's been nearly four years since the S250 (and its like-sized siblings) were launched and nearly a decade since the 773G (now S175), and still no performance updates whatsoever (save going to #120 chain on larger loaders)!

AWJ Services
09-02-2007, 06:18 PM
Someone with a lot of money really should just do a huge "equipment shootout"


That would be great.
It would be hard too recreate an even test as far as digging hard soil but most everything else would be straight forward.
I would love too get pallets of blocks and see what the machines will lift of the ground.
This goes hand in hand with a machines ability too dig in the dirt and lift up too break it loose.
Same with bucket curl.
Pushing up trees and stumps the bucket curl really helps.

YardPro
09-02-2007, 07:33 PM
awj...

i don't envy you one bit for your conditions..... here where we are we have nothing but sand... almost all beach sand.

a wheeled skid is almost useless, because the soil is so loose you can not drive the bucket into a pile of dirt without getting the machine stuck...

AWJ Services
09-02-2007, 07:38 PM
I have a friend of mine who lives near Wilmington.
He is a Marine mechanic.
You close too There?

cat2
09-02-2007, 08:13 PM
Did bobcat come out with a T-330, or just the T-320? I don't think they did, they were talking about it. Did anyone try out the 320?

Fieldman12
09-02-2007, 11:00 PM
1, Takeuchi/Gehl - Very heavy built machines the ones I have been around and excellent pushing power. Downside- not near as many dealers and cheaper resale but they do cost less up front.
Deere - Machine is built good but I feel not as heavy as the Takeuchi/Gehl. Has excellent pushing and lifting power. There is Deere dealer in almost every county which makes them easy and quick to get parts for. Downside - some of the early CTL's had motor issues, boom sway, lower resale but lately that has been improving a good bit.
3. Case/New Holland - I'm rating these together based on the undercarriage. Besides that they are different animals but both have proved over the years to be very reliable. Dealer support is in the middle with Case having more of an advantage due to more dealers. Case has great resale and the New Holland is about middle of the road on resale. Both are new to the CTL market but so far I have not heard any big complaints.
4. ASV - Very well built machine and power. Downside dealer support I would think would be the top. Resale seems to be good.
5.Bobcat - Excellent resale but about average on everything else. They have had a bunch of CTL issues but hope they have now been fixed. Dealer support seems to be very good at the dealers they do have nut not enough dealers. Around here way more Case or New Holland dealer than Bobcat.
6. Cat- I think Cat would be way higher on this list but they have had allot of undercarriage issues. I hope the issues have been fixed on the C series. They could use more dealers but I think over all they are good service wise.

These are just my opinions so take it with a grain of salt. My opinion as others have said you need a track loader not a CTL.

NHMan
09-03-2007, 12:35 AM
Did bobcat come out with a T-330, or just the T-320? I don't think they did, they were talking about it. Did anyone try out the 320?

I tried the T-320 and wasnt impressed. It seemed to lack power. The few hp it gained didn't add up to much as far as drawbar pull or pushing power. They added weight to gain lift capacity. To me it is a (Pig in Mud) pardon the expression. Electric/Hydraulic controls only add to the problem.The tip/operating capacity does look good on paper though...but thats just paper.:dancing:

Scag48
09-03-2007, 03:31 AM
I thought Bobcat would have learned from the 873/883. Adding weight to gain capacity never really works out all that well. One of these days Bobcat might release something that blows us all away but I haven't seen it lately.

apples017
09-03-2007, 03:48 AM
So if we compare the ASV Posi-Track SR-80 and the older model RC-100 with say the John Deere CT322 or 323??? Out of these two models which would have the most brute force pushing power into a hard virgin soil like clay.

I mention the two ASV models because the newer SR-80 has the better fatures like smoother ride etc, but I don't think they make a 100hp version in the new SR series , just the older RC-100.

I guess that providing the HP of the models are roughly the same a lot of the tractive effort would have to come down to the rubber track patterns and designs.

In reality if I get a machine (one day) I'd like to be able to just crawl into an earth face and take out a scoop of dirt. As in making house pads. What about digging dams with one of these machines? Once again anything is possible and the soil conditions are an importand factor here. Digging or cleaning out dry dams might be an area of work that might be available. Cleaning out all the silt in the bottom of a dryed up dam etc.

Cheers
Peter
Australia

Scag48
09-03-2007, 04:03 AM
I factor in dealer support above anything else when buying a machine. Seems to me that Deere puts the most power to the ground, I've also heard Case's tracked machines lay down some decent pushing power. To me, if I can get in a machine, put it through a few hours of typical operating conditions and be satisfied with it's performance at the end of the day that's all I need. What I look for in a machine and what someone else looks for are 2 different things.

The point I'm trying to make here is that even if Deere does put down the most power to the ground, would you purchase that machine knowing that information alone? I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say buying a machine based solely would on performance be a big mistake, there's a much bigger picture that needs to be realize.

Fieldman12
09-03-2007, 04:15 AM
Scag48 is correct about what he says that any of the above will dig dirt. You can even do that fine with a skid steer provided you have idea situations meaning dry and how hard/packed the dirt is does matter. Don't get me wrong the CTL/MTL will have more pushing power and digging power but anything skid steer included will dig. I also agree that to me dealer support is one of the most important factors for me along with quality and resale. I dug out a waterway this spring with just a Deere skid steer in muddy conditions and did fine. Yeah I lost traction some but never got stuck and was able to keep going.

apples017
09-03-2007, 05:46 AM
Yeah I totally agree
. You want the end user support as well.

Construct'O
09-03-2007, 09:07 AM
In reality if I get a machine (one day) I'd like to be able to just crawl into an earth face and take out a scoop of dirt. As in making house pads. What about digging dams with one of these machines? Once again anything is possible and the soil conditions are an importand factor here. Digging or cleaning out dry dams might be an area of work that might be available. Cleaning out all the silt in the bottom of a dryed up dam etc.

Cheers
Peter
Australia[/QUOTE]

What is your equipment operating experience?????

Your talking about building dams and cleaning dried out silt dams? I wouldn't think skidsteer or even CTL.Maybe small fish ponds out in the back yard and clean them.

Dams that are dried silt dams on top might look dry ,but around here they are quite muddy after you get down a ways.Unless it has been centurys since it dried up or washed out.

Again for the projects you are talking about i don't see your reasoning for small equipment?

The ponds that i have cleaned has always been with excavator and dozer.I put the excavator up on the bank and push the slop up to the excavator which was short on reach.Start at one side and work my way across the bottom of the pond.

Sometimes the bottom wasn't solid enough to hold the dozer up ,but normally under the silt it was except where there was an old ditch or something.We are taking small ponds even.

I understand what you want to do,just not your equipment choice?

AWJ Services
09-03-2007, 09:31 AM
In reality if I get a machine (one day) I'd like to be able to just crawl into an earth face and take out a scoop of dirt.

953 Cats spin there tracks digging here and they weigh 30k + pounds.
An older JD 455 will out dig any skid steer in this hard ground.
But they are not as versatile nor as fast.
Most skids the size you are wanting too purchase are above what a good used 10 ton trackloader would cost.
Maybe that would be a better fit.

You will find a very large group of skid steer owners here that post very honestly about there equipment.
We all have very different digging conditions which results in different machine purchases.


The SR-80 looks like a winner on paper for sure.
I would love too demo one.

YardPro
09-03-2007, 11:12 AM
I have a friend of mine who lives near Wilmington.
He is a Marine mechanic.
You close too There?

yep, just north of there, about 60 miles.

Tigerotor77W
09-03-2007, 11:41 AM
I thought Bobcat would have learned from the 873/883. Adding weight to gain capacity never really works out all that well. One of these days Bobcat might release something that blows us all away but I haven't seen it lately.

Or maybe... just maybe... we'll see the super-duper replacements of the current line up soon (like 2008), kind of like how the S250/S300 replacements came about a year or two after the 883 fell out of the sky.

Maybe I'm just wishing too much... :(

RockSet N' Grade
09-03-2007, 01:35 PM
Hey Constructo.......I was at a buddy's ranch in Lorena, Texas and he wanted to build a "tank" for his cattle. We took an old D-9 (with cable's, not hydraulics) and started pushing out this "little pond" to make his "tank" (or what later turned into a big old bass lake) and got to the soft end of the existing pond and low and behold that old D-9 started sinking....and sinking.......and sinking. Shut 'er down and drank a couple six packs and just watched. Spent all next day with cables and a couple Texas sized tractors and finally got it out. You are correct when saying it may look dry on top, but its a bit wet underneath........My buddy Robert and I still laugh at that little adventure........years later, the bass lake is still functional.......cattle water there and the water skiing is still pretty good........that mutha turned into one large "tank"........

apples017
09-03-2007, 03:25 PM
Construct'O, I'm trying to see how much versatility a Compact Track Loader has. I know the capabilities of a normal wheeled skid steer loader but with tracks on there I'm interested to know how much more 'power to the ground' they put down. Then with that added traction I'm thinking what else can the CTL do.

Yeah sure if you gunna make dams all day long, go and get a big front end loader and maybe an excavator as well. I'm not saying that I want to make dams all the time because, yes, then the equipment choice would not be that good if using a CTL. But by having a CTL it might just open the door for other work as in cleaning out dams (small ones). That's all.

Peter

cat2
09-03-2007, 03:55 PM
My vote goes to the deere CLT 332

Digdeep
09-03-2007, 06:06 PM
I'd definately to throw the ASV RC100 into the mix. I've seen a video taken from Youtube on another forum that shows an RC50 just like mine pushing a Bobcat T250 backwards in the snow (there is a video of the SR80 pushing the T250 backwards too). I think that a 6,000lb, 50hp machine pushing a 9,000lb+, 81hp machine backwards is a good indication of traction. I've also seen ASV's SR80 video that shows the SR80 with essentially the same drawbar as the 10,000lb+ Deere 332 and the SR80 is over 1,500lbs lighter. If the RC100 with over 300ft lbs of torque has anywhere near as much traction as the SR80, and I think it would, it would be worth looking into.

AWJ Services
09-03-2007, 08:00 PM
I know the capabilities of a normal wheeled skid steer loader but with tracks on there I'm interested to know how much more 'power to the ground' they put down. Then with that added traction I'm thinking what else can the CTL do.

There is no comparison.
The track machine is a much better digger.

I do wonderful things with mine.

I have taken on some far sized clearing jobs with it.
I have Contractors who have tired machines that contract out too me when the job is too tough for there machines.

Digdeep
09-03-2007, 09:53 PM
AWJ Services is right on the money when he say's that there is no comparison between a skid steer and a track loader when it comes to digging. My RC50 runs absolute circles around my S220 and the S220 has 25more gross hp than the RC50 and weighs over 2,000lbs more.

apples017
09-04-2007, 02:01 AM
Cool, imagine how a 80 or 100 model ASV machine would be.

Has anyone got some photos of some holes etc that an ASV machine has dug?

Peter

apples017
10-24-2007, 07:29 AM
Okay,

So if we compare a SR-80 to the latest of the CAT CTL "C"series loader.
How would this compare with each other.

Both under carrages are ASV, right?

Which will have more push and digging force etc.

Peter
Australia

Digdeep
10-24-2007, 08:34 PM
The ASV SR80 most closely matches the CAT 277C in terms of hp and ROC. I would bet that their both pretty close in terms of pushing power and digging force. Based on my experience I would guess that the ASV would out push and dig based on the balance of the machine. The ASV machine was and still is built from the ground up to be a tracked machine while the CAT machines use ASVs undercarriage on a skid steer frame. You can easily notice this by the widths (72" vs. 78"), ground clearances (15" vs. 8.8"), and ground speeds (12.5mph vs. 9.3mph). For instance I know that the CAT 247 and especially the CAT 257 will not climb a hill as well as the ASV RC50 or RC60 because I've demoed them on my jobsites. I think this is based on the fact that a skid steer has a weight distribution of around 30/70, and the 257 (vertical path lift) has even more weight towards the rear than the CAT radial lift path machines where the ASV machines have a distribution that is very close to 50/50. I think you should demo them in your application to find out first hand. Good luck.

ksss
10-24-2007, 10:39 PM
On the JD breakout force numbers. I have lately been seeing them advertise a breakout of around 8K. Still pretty good but not as over the top as the 11K numbers. I wonder if someone did not call B.S.

P.Services
10-24-2007, 10:59 PM
i dont think 11k is over the top thats what it does

AWJ Services
10-24-2007, 11:09 PM
i dont think 11k is over the top thats what it does

Prove it.:)

P.Services
10-24-2007, 11:15 PM
Prove it.:)

have you ever run one? i will have one soon so i will

ksss
10-24-2007, 11:23 PM
BrianDennis1470: This you can be assured of, you cannot keep the loader arms against the frame, using only the bucket, curl 11600 pounds. Do you want to know why you can't do it? Or do you have that figured out as well. Look at the specs and you will find the answer for yourself. Tigerrotor you can't help him. The number is bogus, I am just surprised no one has called them on it sooner.

P.Services
10-24-2007, 11:28 PM
i know they use a longer "lip" on the bucket in order to get these numbers.

iron peddler
10-24-2007, 11:45 PM
JD has been using foundry buckets for years when the measured bucket break out, i have noticed that on some of their specs sheets lately they have stated if was measured with a construction or foundry bucket.

qps
10-24-2007, 11:47 PM
have you ever run one? i will have one soon so i will


I have.....I demoed the 332, gehl, bobcat t300 before I bought my 297C...
Deere was a work horse but it doesn't lift anymore than my CAT....and it rode quite well also...the new C series are not ASV systems...so I was told anyways......if I hadn't got such a deal on the cat and if deere offered pilot controls....I would have owned one....

Digdeep
10-25-2007, 12:31 AM
ASV still builds sthe CAT C series undercarriage (anyone telling you differently is feeding you a line of....). JD does use foundry buckets for their breakout figures. The shorter bucket lip that is closer to the machine gives them the increased brekout specs.

apples017
10-25-2007, 01:57 AM
Hey has anyone got any videos of their newer machines doing some work?

I have seen the main marketing videos mbtractor.com and a few from youtube.com Iand also the john deere site.

It would be interesting to see some basic moves from different models of CTL's. Say if Joe Blow had a case he could do a few standard basic moves , then someone else etc etc.

The upload the videos so we can compare. It would be really interesting to see some vid's of a CTL digging into hard clay type soils compared to a standard wheeled skid steer.

So, any other videos for download out there?

Cheers,
Peter
Australia

qps
10-25-2007, 07:06 AM
ASV still builds sthe CAT C series undercarriage (anyone telling you differently is feeding you a line of....). JD does use foundry buckets for their breakout figures. The shorter bucket lip that is closer to the machine gives them the increased brekout specs.

that wouldn't surprise me...I may have misunderstood, but its not the same as the old one on my 257B..lots easier to clean...how it holds up...time will tell...

AWJ Services
10-25-2007, 09:13 AM
The shorter bucket lip that is closer to the machine gives them the increased brekout specs.

The Bucket curl cannot exceed the lift arms capacity.If it does it will push the lift arms down negating the high breakout spec.

My machines breakout forces of the 2 different group of cylinders is even.
With a set of forks and retaining wall blocks I actually have verifyed what my machine will actually do.
How the manufacturer tests there machines leads room for error when comparing machines.

The boom breakout on The Deere machine is only 6650 which will negate the bucket curl breakout unless you have the back of the bucket or the lift arms supported.

Take the pivot point distance of the bucket pins too cylinder fastening point,the cylinder area ,the hyd pressure and the distance from bucket pin too bucket tip and the actual work the bucket curl can do can be figured.
You will also find that through the buckets arc it will gain and loose speed and power because of the changes in these dimenisions.
Same for there lift arm design.It's weakness is power off of the bottom of it's lift arc.


The upload the videos so we can compare. It would be really interesting to see some vid's of a CTL digging into hard clay type soils compared to a standard wheeled skid steer.


The soils vary greatly here so unless it is on the same property the tests would pretty much be meaningless.

ksss
10-25-2007, 09:22 AM
As pointed out, the longer lip would only decrease breakout. The only way the JD could post such breakout numbers is if they tied the back of the machine down. The 11600 breakout number is not obtainable as the machine is sitting without some sort of mechanical restraint. The machine weighs 9100 pounds (332). How could the machine, given its weight distrubution, post an 11600 breakout number? I don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either. Even if it could use all of its weight as counter balance (which of course it cant) it still could not reach 11600. Theoretical yes I can see that, tie the rear end down in a Lab yep could be done. That is not how the testing is done. The 95XT will lift (as I am told) 11500 with the rear end tied down yet CASE does not publish a lift capacity of 11500. If you cant use the number in the real world it does not mean much. It is a powerful machine no doubt. I believe they have combined lift arm with breakout or something I don't know. I would sure like to hear from a JD engineer on how that came to be. I was told that JD is going to be at ConExpo this year. I will make sure I find the answer to that question.

SiteSolutions
10-25-2007, 11:29 AM
As pointed out, the longer lip would only decrease breakout. The only way the JD could post such breakout numbers is if they tied the back of the machine down. The 11600 breakout number is not obtainable as the machine is sitting without some sort of mechanical restraint. The machine weighs 9100 pounds (332). How could the machine, given its weight distrubution, post an 11600 breakout number? I don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either. Even if it could use all of its weight as counter balance (which of course it cant) it still could not reach 11600. Theoretical yes I can see that, tie the rear end down in a Lab yep could be done. That is not how the testing is done. The 95XT will lift (as I am told) 11500 with the rear end tied down yet CASE does not publish a lift capacity of 11500. If you cant use the number in the real world it does not mean much. It is a powerful machine no doubt. I believe they have combined lift arm with breakout or something I don't know. I would sure like to hear from a JD engineer on how that came to be. I was told that JD is going to be at ConExpo this year. I will make sure I find the answer to that question.


I see your point but I would like to point out that a 180 pound adult can be lifted by a 35 pound child, if the adult is close enough to the center of the see-saw. If you use the front of the tracks or the front wheels as the fulcrum, and the rear end of the machine is only 5500 pounds but twice as far from the front wheels as the center of the load, I could see a lifting or breakout number being 11,000 pounds.

Anyways, I am sure tigerrotor could clear things up once again, but isn't breakout more a reflection of the strength of the hydraulics, where tipping load is how well the machine as a whole can handle / carry the weight? If you wedge your loader in under a large tree root ball or a large chunk of concrete, with the lift arms all the way down, you aren't looking to lift a lot of weight so much as pry on something that has to be broken out, hence break out force. Just my understanding of why such a number would have any significance.

Interesting to note that JD uses a short bucket for their numbers, though... didn't know that.

JDSKIDSTEER
10-25-2007, 02:18 PM
I see your point but I would like to point out that a 180 pound adult can be lifted by a 35 pound child, if the adult is close enough to the center of the see-saw. If you use the front of the tracks or the front wheels as the fulcrum, and the rear end of the machine is only 5500 pounds but twice as far from the front wheels as the center of the load, I could see a lifting or breakout number being 11,000 pounds.

Anyways, I am sure tigerrotor could clear things up once again, but isn't breakout more a reflection of the strength of the hydraulics, where tipping load is how well the machine as a whole can handle / carry the weight? If you wedge your loader in under a large tree root ball or a large chunk of concrete, with the lift arms all the way down, you aren't looking to lift a lot of weight so much as pry on something that has to be broken out, hence break out force. Just my understanding of why such a number would have any significance.

Interesting to note that JD uses a short bucket for their numbers, though... didn't know that.As I always say, do not pay attention to specs....put them in the dirt.

AWJ Services
10-25-2007, 03:02 PM
Interesting to note that JD uses a short bucket for their numbers, though... didn't know that.

It actually says so in there sales pamphlet.

Digdeep
10-25-2007, 06:38 PM
It actually says so in there sales pamphlet.

Yes, but it's in "itsy bitsy" lettering as if they didn't want to make it readily known. I'm sure that JD isn't the only manufacturer to do this, but I also notice that they list a tractive effort of 11,500lbs for their CT332 which only weighs in at (a whopping) 10,815lbs. I'd like to know how they calculated this "spec" since it would be difficult at best with any rubber track machine to pull more than the machines weight. I haven't seen it for some time, but I think that ASV showed a video of their SR80 actually pulling only 200lbs less even though the SR80 was outweighed by over 1,700lbs and gave up some hp.

AWJ Services
10-25-2007, 07:18 PM
but I think that ASV showed a video of their SR80 actually pulling only 200lbs less even though the SR80 was outweighed by over 1,700lbs and gave up some hp.

The tracks on the ASV/Cat CTL machines are very flexible and do offer much greater traction then machines like my TL 140.
They do have the advantage in straight out pulling power.
When you are able too use the bucket too help with traction they are much more equal.

P.Services
10-25-2007, 08:26 PM
how will a ctl do on a hill in the snow? are they useless

AWJ Services
10-25-2007, 08:34 PM
how will a ctl do on a hill in the snow? are they useless

The snow is not the problem it is the ice.
I have seen videos of the non supended CTL machines on ice and it is not pretty.

P.Services
10-25-2007, 08:37 PM
so after i have run up and down a hill over and over and over and it gets all packed down it wont be able to keep going?

Tigerotor77W
10-25-2007, 08:39 PM
i know they use a longer "lip" on the bucket in order to get these numbers.

Already been discussed -- but it's a shorter lip rather than a longer lip. It's not quite the same analogy as using a longer wrench to loosen as stubborn lug nut.

I have.....I demoed the 332, gehl, bobcat t300 before I bought my 297C...
Deere was a work horse but it doesn't lift anymore than my CAT....and it rode quite well also...the new C series are not ASV systems...so I was told anyways......if I hadn't got such a deal on the cat and if deere offered pilot controls....I would have owned one....

Also been discussed, but ASV still makes the Cat UC -- there are more Cat-implemented changes or designs in the new stuff, however.

I see your point but I would like to point out that a 180 pound adult can be lifted by a 35 pound child, if the adult is close enough to the center of the see-saw. If you use the front of the tracks or the front wheels as the fulcrum, and the rear end of the machine is only 5500 pounds but twice as far from the front wheels as the center of the load, I could see a lifting or breakout number being 11,000 pounds.

Anyways, I am sure tigerrotor could clear things up once again, but isn't breakout more a reflection of the strength of the hydraulics, where tipping load is how well the machine as a whole can handle / carry the weight? If you wedge your loader in under a large tree root ball or a large chunk of concrete, with the lift arms all the way down, you aren't looking to lift a lot of weight so much as pry on something that has to be broken out, hence break out force. Just my understanding of why such a number would have any significance.

A good post. Theoretically, the SAE spec states that the rear of the machine isn't supposed to be chained down. The ISO spec, however, is a little vaguer (at least according to my skimming of it) -- and actually calls for a "loose chain" to prevent tipping. There's fudge-ability with either spec, and certainly manufacturers will exploit that.

You are right in saying that breakout force is more a hydraulic comparison, but again -- depending on the spec, manufacturers are supposed to report the number at which the machine tips -- not the maximum force exerted. It doesn't really do anyone any good if the machine can lift its rear in the air; that's counterproductive and unsafe.

And again -- as JDSKIDSTEER pointed out -- this is all well and good in theory, but numbers don't tell the whole story. Seat time! Stick time! Dirt time! (Ironically, it's the numbers that first get people's attention...)

how will a ctl do on a hill in the snow? are they as useless as tits on a nun

CTLs on snow aren't necessarily that great; MTLs and ASVs are generally considered to be a little better.

P.Services
10-25-2007, 08:46 PM
has any one ever run steel tracks with big grosers on them? i am looking into it for a ct332

ksss
10-25-2007, 09:13 PM
I realize that depending on the fulcrum principle that you can lift more than you weigh. However when you look at the design of a skid steer that does not come into play, especially on a 50/50 split like I think Deere is. I have no doubt that they chained it down to get the spec or added in lift arm capacity. It is a big machine and it has capacity but altering the numbers really isn't necessary.

iron peddler
10-25-2007, 09:14 PM
not to add a lot of fuel to the fire, but a recent Nebraska Tractor Testing session for tip load measured the cat 287c at 8450 lbs and the bobcat t300 at 7900 lbs those results mean a rated operating capacity of 4225 lbs for the 287 and 3950 for the t300...and neither one of those numbers are what the manufacturers adverstise.....marketing guys list what fits a size class or market share gap....and i do agree that breakout is more of a hydraulic cylinder and physics lesson than it is machine wt.....i always hated the specs that listed a tip load of 3800 lbs and only have lift hydraulics of 3500...that is a tough one to explain to a customer.

Digdeep
10-25-2007, 09:45 PM
ASV also announced at their dealer meeting that they introduced an aggressive tread for their RC50/60 for use in snow, mud, and sand. I haven't seen them yet (darn salesman), but he did say that he demoed them on their demo day and the increased traction was great.

Tigerotor77W
10-25-2007, 09:48 PM
iron peddler: can you check your figures? Because if it's switched (i.e. if the T300 has a tipping load of 8450 and the 287C a tipping load of 7900) that matches almost perfectly with the published ratings from Bobcat and Cat. Remember that MTLs/CTLs are usually rated at 35% of tipping load, not 50%; as a result, the figures come out to

2957.5 (for the 8450 pound tipping load, which is close to the T300's 3000 pound rated ROC)
and
2765 (for the 7900 pound tipping load, close to the 2696 pound ROC for the 287C).

And are you sure it's the Nebraska Test Lab that did the tests? I can't find any tests outside of tractor tests on their site. How do you find those test reports?

And yeah, you're right: marketers do target a machine size and play with numbers to get what they want out of the machine. That being said, it's hard to pinpoint exactly how much it's done or by how much the numbers are cheated.

ASV also announced at their dealer meeting that they introduced an aggressive tread for their RC50/60 for use in snow, mud, and sand. I haven't seen them yet (darn salesman), but he did say that he demoed them on their demo day and the increased traction was great.

I can take a photo of the recent GROUNDWORK magazine in which the tread design is discussed.

iron peddler
10-25-2007, 10:01 PM
yes tiger i double checked the numbers before i posted ( i know how this site will bury you if you misquote) the roc that gets calculated is kind of a messed up way of doing things...some do 35% some do 50%....for comparision sake...cat always listed at 50% even when they measured out on the light side...maybe not the most marketable thing but it was honest....the Neb. tractor testing facility is starting to dabble in const. equip testing...drawbar/ rimpull,fuel consumption, hydraulic performance, cooling performance etc....i am sure if you call in your cat connections you could possibly get some extra info....my info states that it is a third party unbiased testing service...and this test was only c series vs. bobcat...it wasn't every machine, and it was against last yr models....

Construct'O
10-25-2007, 10:03 PM
I liked the looks of the new tread design.Maybe some of the other guys will get with the program and come up with some new designs.I like the the looks of the bars.

Pretty aggresive by the pictures.They send me that magzine and i don't even own an ASV ?

Evidently they aren't ready to put them on the bigger machine yet.So this might be a test or learning curve:rolleyes: .You suppose?:usflag:

Tigerotor77W
10-25-2007, 11:13 PM
yes tiger i double checked the numbers before i posted ( i know how this site will bury you if you misquote) the roc that gets calculated is kind of a messed up way of doing things...some do 35% some do 50%....for comparision sake...cat always listed at 50% even when they measured out on the light side...maybe not the most marketable thing but it was honest....the Neb. tractor testing facility is starting to dabble in const. equip testing...drawbar/ rimpull,fuel consumption, hydraulic performance, cooling performance etc....i am sure if you call in your cat connections you could possibly get some extra info....my info states that it is a third party unbiased testing service...and this test was only c series vs. bobcat...it wasn't every machine, and it was against last yr models....

Mmm... interesting... it was a Cat vs. Bobcat comparison, you say? :) I'll have to do some digging.

Thanks for the notes on the NTL. Do you know if their construction equipment stuff is public? (Like http://tractortestlab.unl.edu/testreports.htm has all the tractor reports)

ksss
10-25-2007, 11:18 PM
I did not know that the Nebraska Tests were including construction equipment. This maybe the start of what we have all talked about. An unbiased evaluation of specs on different equipment. Perhaps we will have some numbers that will actually mean something.

iron peddler
10-26-2007, 07:40 AM
i don't know a lot of the details, so i am not going to make up a story, i am sure there was a suggetsion by cat on what machines to test....i am hopeful that this will be a start of a standardized test, there are several machines that perform better in the real world than what there specs read...and i will say that their tipping load test was different than what most manufacturers show how they do it.

iron peddler
10-26-2007, 07:43 AM
Mmm... interesting... it was a Cat vs. Bobcat comparison, you say? :) I'll have to do some digging.

Thanks for the notes on the NTL. Do you know if their construction equipment stuff is public? (Like http://tractortestlab.unl.edu/testreports.htm has all the tractor reports)

i don't know if it will be public anytime soon........and bobcat is the market share leader so they are a natural target.

SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES
10-26-2007, 11:38 AM
I have rented a deere 322 for a lot of my projects b/c i hate the 320 skid steer and it always does a great job. It moves pavers around the yard with no problem, either up hill or down. I rencently started leveling a spot in my back yard (nice hard clay with tree roots) and i never had any trouble. I would set the bucket to the correct angle, put it on float and had no problem digging into the hard stuff 6-8" at a time. The only time i maxed out anything was when i was not paying attention and had my bucket angle wrong and the mach lot traction when it got to about 14" down in the clay. Needless to say it had trouble with traction at that point, the tracks were still pushing hard. I even pushed over several trees in the 6" caliper range. I have never really maxed out the lifting capacity, but i did try. i had a tandem axle trailer with 4 (2800lb) pallets of pavers on its back and the trailer got a flat tire. So i took the bucket and put it under the back corner of the trailer and lifted the two side tires off the ground with no problem. I can't tell you what this weight was, but i promise it was in excess of its rated capacity. I have a lot of real world experience with this deere machine and for its size (8500lb), it performs great. I do know also that the way they rate the tip capacity of the loaders is they take them put them on flat ground and put a sheet of paper under the back of the track. they start lifting weight and when they can put that sheet out from under the back track, that is what they consider the tiping capacity to be. granted you could say that does not mean that it will continue to tip, but that is how they rate it. Another thing to keep in mind is that all these examples was with the smaller deere 322 and not the larger 332. i have run it once before on a job and did not do anything that would stress it, but i could image that it would be a force to be reconded with.

BrandonV
10-26-2007, 12:15 PM
i'm personally lusting after the 297cat now, i love my 287b but i officially have tractor envy now when i see one.

BrandonsLawnAndSnow
10-27-2007, 08:50 PM
Hands Down bobcat T300

P.Services
10-27-2007, 09:04 PM
Hands Down bobcat T300

yeah ok buddy :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :dizzy:

BrandonsLawnAndSnow
10-27-2007, 09:11 PM
yeah ok buddy :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :dizzy:

What would you suggest?

P.Services
10-27-2007, 09:18 PM
so I'm going to post this here because their is a lot of knowledge getting throw around.

lets say you have a ct332 and you need to clear six decent size home sites ( 5 or 6 acres). a ton of trees, hundreds of 3''-5'' and a bunch of 8''-14'' also. and a bunch of brush and scrub to clean to. what would you want to do this job with. Every thing will need to get chipped after also.

1) chain saw down the trees and rent a grapple bucket to haul them out, rent a chipper and chip it all.

2) rent a fecon cutter head and grind it all in the woods and leave the chips

3) rent a feller/buncher and use it to cut them and haul them out, chip it all after.

4) use a brush hog/ambusher mower to cut and grind all the small stuff 4'' and less. then do 1) on the big stuff.

i dont want to rent a fecon head because i need a cooling kit and what not that will cost some big bucks and they are very hard on machines, plus i dont like to rent things, i feel like i am giving away my money. having a laborer to cut them all will cost me a little but its slow and not as safe. its a vague question just wanted to hear some ideas.

P.Services
10-27-2007, 09:19 PM
What would you suggest?

for what? a deere ct332 or a cat 297c

BrandonsLawnAndSnow
10-27-2007, 09:34 PM
for what? a deere ct332 or a cat 297c

No the best skid out there

P.Services
10-27-2007, 09:38 PM
read the last 9 pages again.

AWJ Services
10-27-2007, 09:42 PM
Get a Cat 953 and get too work.:)

BrandonsLawnAndSnow
10-27-2007, 09:53 PM
read the last 9 pages again.

Do you yourself actually own a skid?

qps
10-27-2007, 10:03 PM
Hands Down bobcat T300

Not even close...tested it against a deere 332 and cat 297...both handed it its lunch in all aspects of performance.....

P.Services
10-27-2007, 10:03 PM
no i have been running a ct332 for awhile though, long enough to know thats the one i am buying. soon.

P.Services
10-27-2007, 10:05 PM
Not even close...tested it against a deere 332 and cat 297...both handed it its lunch in all aspects of performance.....

only comparing the lifting abilities and nothing else what can lift more the 332 or the 297?

BrandonsLawnAndSnow
10-27-2007, 10:05 PM
no i have been running a ct332 for awhile though, long enough to know thats the one i am buying. soon.
Well after you get one come talk to me,,,hopefully it will be a good choice t300

qps
10-27-2007, 10:08 PM
only comparing the lifting abilities and nothing else what can lift more the 332 or the 297?

the deere machine was a great performer,,,if it had pilot controls I probably would have bought it instead of the 297C..the seem to lift about the same..I don't put a lot of faith in published numbers...line em up and run em....then pick one....

P.Services
10-27-2007, 10:08 PM
im confused,, you own a t300? have you run the deere? or the cat? i have run the bobcat and was not impressed with anything at all. i think the majority would agree with me by saying the t300 is a great machine but far from the best at anything.

P.Services
10-27-2007, 10:11 PM
the deere machine was a great performer,,,if it had pilot controls I probably would have bought it instead of the 297C..the seem to lift about the same..I don't put a lot of faith in published numbers...line em up and run em....then pick one....

yes i agree, that was my only complaint about the deere to. the controls are just not easy to operate, they are stiff and physically tiring. i would love to have a cat 297 but i cant afford that. i am going to pick up a used (550hrs w/high flow) deere ct332 and i know i will be happy with it.

BrandonsLawnAndSnow
10-27-2007, 10:13 PM
im confused,, you own a t300? have you run the deere? or the cat? i have run the bobcat and was not impressed with anything at all. i think the majority would agree with me by saying the t300 is a great machine but far from the best at anything.

I ran a deere before, it was ok, but after a while it was worn out, same with the cat, the bobcat is the best machine out there, I now own 3 2-773 and 1 t300

P.Services
10-27-2007, 10:20 PM
I ran a deere before, it was ok, but after a while it was worn out, same with the cat, the bobcat is the best machine out there, I now own 3 2-773 and 1 t300

pics then please, you sound like a young kid that doesn't know the facts.

BrandonsLawnAndSnow
10-27-2007, 10:25 PM
pics then please, you sound like a young kid that doesn't know the facts.

I will go out to the job sites tomorrow and take some pictures of the machines and some jobs that they have done, and how can you talk? you dont even own anything..maybe a 1980's rusted out pick-up?

P.Services
10-27-2007, 10:28 PM
I will go out to the job sites tomorrow and take some pictures of the machines and some jobs that they have done, and how can you talk? you dont even own anything..maybe a 1980's rusted out pick-up?

not even close.

BrandonsLawnAndSnow
10-27-2007, 10:30 PM
not even close.

Than what do you have?

BrandonsLawnAndSnow
10-27-2007, 10:34 PM
A station wagon and a shovel?

P.Services
10-27-2007, 10:36 PM
I'm not going to get in a little pi$$in match with you over this. I'm a 20 year old punk kid with a big ego because Ive worked around the best and worked on the biggest jobs in Michigan. my dad owns a ton of stuff so i am not new to this at all, i learned a ton of stuff from him and environmental artist and decided this year to start my own company. your right i don't own much the 332 will be my first machine. I'm not trying to get your frilly little panties in a knot don't worry.

BrandonsLawnAndSnow
10-27-2007, 10:40 PM
I'm not going to get in a little pi$$in match with you over this. I'm a 20 year old punk kid with a big ego because Ive worked around the best and worked on the biggest jobs in Michigan. my dad owns a ton of stuff so i am not new to this at all, i learned a ton of stuff from him and environmental artist and decided this year to start my own company. your right i don't own much the 332 will be my first machine. I'm not trying to get your frilly little panties in a knot don't worry.


Some of the biggest jobs in MI? Well you havent worked for me or my buddy so you cant really say that.

P.Services
10-27-2007, 10:42 PM
A station wagon and a shovel?

and my plastic wheel barrow!!! but i have flyer's i maid at home and they will get me tons of work. enough all ready don't get wound up, when i get mine bring yours up to fenton this winter and we can have a real comparison. maybe we can get matt from cat to bring up a 297 also. i know mike at wolverine very good i know he can bring us out a 450 ctl. we can take pics and video to post on here i know every one would love to see a unbiased comparison. this winter when things are slow we will have to do it.

BrandonsLawnAndSnow
10-27-2007, 10:45 PM
and my plastic wheel barrow!!! but i have flyer's i maid at home and they will get me tons of work. enough all ready don't get wound up, when i get mine bring yours up to fenton this winter and we can have a real comparison. maybe we can get matt from cat to bring up a 297 also. i know mike at wolverine very good i know he can bring us out a 450 ctl. we can take pics and video to post on here i know every one would love to see a unbiased comparison. this winter when things are slow we will have to do it.

Alright than, i will be waiting

Tigerotor77W
10-28-2007, 12:04 PM
Jeez louise! This is the second time that a thread has gotten way too out-of-hand.

We're professionals here; we can at least agree to respect each other's opinions. If someone feels that his or her machine is the best one out there, it may well be the right choice for him or her.

There's no need to start bashing each other and trying to have a p(*&ing match to see whose machine can run the farthest... this thread was all about respectful opinions to begin with, and that worked for nine pages. Let's get it back that way, shall we?

CarterKraft
10-28-2007, 03:39 PM
Just my opinion from someone that has a wheelbarrow and a shovel...

The two individuals that cannot communicate as professionals, no age limit here, should excuse themselves from this thread and not return until they can interject as professionals.

Scag48
10-28-2007, 05:30 PM
Hahaha, sounds like a couple of clowns in this thread.

RockSet N' Grade
10-28-2007, 06:14 PM
More like a couple young bulls in the same pasture come spring time.

bishoplandscape
10-29-2007, 06:06 PM
and my plastic wheel barrow!!! but i have flyer's i maid at home and they will get me tons of work. enough all ready don't get wound up, when i get mine bring yours up to fenton this winter and we can have a real comparison. maybe we can get matt from cat to bring up a 297 also. i know mike at wolverine very good i know he can bring us out a 450 ctl. we can take pics and video to post on here i know every one would love to see a unbiased comparison. this winter when things are slow we will have to do it.

Let me just add that mike hasn't worked at wt&e for a while now and also they don't sell new case equipment anymore..

P.Services
10-29-2007, 11:06 PM
Let me just add that mike hasn't worked at wt&e for a while now and also they don't sell new case equipment anymore..

and that could be i havent been in there since june, and i remember him hinting to things about volvo but he never came out and said it, now i know what he meant.

YellowDogSVC
10-29-2007, 11:23 PM
More like a couple young bulls in the same pasture come spring time.

around here we fix that by making them steers

bobcatboy
11-02-2007, 12:18 AM
I'm demoing a t320, so far I'm mixed with feelings. The breakout power doesn't seem to be any better than my s250. I will tell one thing about these ctl's they are rock solid and stable in the dirt. no bouncing around like a tired machine. The machine has 92 hosrepower it just does'nt seem like it. I will post some pictures tomorow of some work I am doing with it.

YellowDogSVC
11-02-2007, 09:34 AM
I'm demoing a t320, so far I'm mixed with feelings. The breakout power doesn't seem to be any better than my s250. I will tell one thing about these ctl's they are rock solid and stable in the dirt. no bouncing around like a tired machine. The machine has 92 hosrepower it just does'nt seem like it. I will post some pictures tomorow of some work I am doing with it.

Very interesting. I heard the opposite on the s330 which is same motor but rated at 85 hp. I would hope Bobcat had made an improvement with the 92 hp machine. I would hate to think it can't do much more than the 81 but the displacement is bigger so on paper, it should.

turboawd
11-03-2007, 01:03 AM
I'm demoing a t320, so far I'm mixed with feelings. The breakout power doesn't seem to be any better than my s250. I will tell one thing about these ctl's they are rock solid and stable in the dirt. no bouncing around like a tired machine. The machine has 92 hosrepower it just does'nt seem like it. I will post some pictures tomorow of some work I am doing with it.

same thing i noticed when demoing a t300.

go and try a takuetchi/gehl/mustang track machine. you'll fall in love with the power and the controls.

YellowDogSVC
11-03-2007, 09:45 AM
I wonder if the Bobcat engineers read these forums and see what people think. I have felt that the s300 is underpowered now that it has 37gpm and weighs so much. I am guessing the T320 has the same issue even with the bigger displacement engine. What is in store for the future there? Hmmm. someone better get on the ball. I just read that Gehl is going to offer a sealed and pressurized cab on its larger ctl's. Another company stepping up to the plate for the operator's comfort.

bobcatboy
11-03-2007, 08:31 PM
ran the 320 today for 4 hours did some serious digging today. Strange thing it seem to have allot more power today. Maybe the problem was me. I noticed that track machine has to be operated different than the tired machine. When I got the learning curve down the thing could sling some serius dirt. Theese machines are alot moore productive in the dirt than a tired machine even with steel tracks. They are just so exspensive and the upkeep is scaring me still thimking. You guys with these machines tell me if you really think the extra 10-18k is worth it

bobcatboy
11-03-2007, 08:38 PM
I'm going to strap my bulhogg on it in the morning and do some grinding to see how it works in that situation. One of the main things that scare about track loaders is that I'm in all kind of conditions not just dirt.

dozerman21
11-03-2007, 08:41 PM
The extra cost is worth it as long as you are working in the right conditions, and you can charge more per hour or be more efficient and get to work more days in the jobs that you do with a CTL.

The CTL's don't operate the same as a wheeled skid. You're working with a lot more traction, so there needs to be a different approach compared to a wheeled skid. Try easing into your turns more, and do what you can to keep the engine from bogging down, and that usually means letting it keep pace with the hydraulics and running a little slower, especially when going into a pile or making a cut into hard ground.

cat2
11-03-2007, 08:43 PM
yea about he power issue. You need to give the engine time to break in. I can tell how much more power my bobcat has now than the day I bought it. Give it time:)

AWJ Services
11-03-2007, 09:20 PM
I run my CTL in everything.


They are just so exspensive and the upkeep is scaring me still thimking. You guys with these machines tell me if you really think the extra 10-18k is worth it

Get a price on Tracks and on the rollers and sprockets.
Look at tracks every 1000 hours and rollers and sprockets somewhere between 2000 and 4000 hour.

Bobcats had a history of wheel motor failures that may or may not be fixed.

Add the cost of foam filled tires and steel tracks too the price of the tired machine and the price gets closer.
Also look at pics in the post about the pond and you will see that there will be many days you can still work.
Also take the time of taking the tracks on and off the tired machine into consideration.Time is money.

YellowDogSVC
11-04-2007, 01:16 AM
i'd probably get a track machine right away if I thought I could operate in rock or around sharp cedar stumps.
Do you worry about logs getting in between rollers and tracks? Everyone I have talked to locally say not to use CTL's in rocky terrain. I always get plenty of life out of my hulk tires because I do everything like a granny would.. slow, but tracks scare me. Anyone know how much tracks would cost to replace on a CTL like a Bobcat big framed CTL. Do you have to replace both sides at the same time if you tear one track?

AWJ Services
11-04-2007, 09:47 AM
My TL140 has the wide tracks and the oem track for my machine is 2000 per side.
I would assume that wear would dictate if you needed to replace in pairs.
I see people who change them one at a time.
They have steel cables in them that if cut will destroy the track.
Rocks get up in my tracks quite often.If they are too big they will actually stop the machine by binding up in the rollers.
The smaller ones just get crushed.
I here often about sharp rocks damaging the tracks.I am only familiar with what we have here in Georgia.
As far as logs and sticks they just get chewed up.
The tracks actually deflect well on stumps and with normal attention during operation they have not been a problem for me.
ASV/Cat Tracks are a different story.My Cat dealer pushes VTS track systems over there own.

The tracks are only an advantage if you need pushing power or the ability too work in really wet conditions.
I look at it no different then a Cat 938 Wheel Loader compared too a 953 Cat tackloader.
They both are limited in one area yet excel in others.

All the right of way work here is done mostly with tractors with rotary cutters.They have big winches too help if they get stuck.
I would think Grinding would be very similar and the primary concern would be hyd power.So I see no advantage for tracks as far as ability as helping the attachment.They run at slower travel speeds as well.

bobcat_ron
11-04-2007, 10:48 AM
Water and rubber tracks combined with sharp rocks I found do the most damage, ask any OTR tire sale person.

YellowDogSVC
11-04-2007, 11:00 AM
My TL140 has the wide tracks and the oem track for my machine is 2000 per side.
I would assume that wear would dictate if you needed to replace in pairs.

The tracks are only an advantage if you need pushing power or the ability too work in really wet conditions.
I look at it no different then a Cat 938 Wheel Loader compared too a 953 Cat tackloader.
They both are limited in one area yet excel in others.

All the right of way work here is done mostly with tractors with rotary cutters.They have big winches too help if they get stuck.
I would think Grinding would be very similar and the primary concern would be hyd power.So I see no advantage for tracks as far as ability as helping the attachment.They run at slower travel speeds as well.


That's an excellent summary and good information.

ksss
11-04-2007, 01:46 PM
The CAT dealer here has stopped renting their CTL and have gone to VTS. The salesman say that they cant charge enough to cover the costs.

bobcat_ron
11-04-2007, 03:13 PM
The day I see a press release from CAT regarding using ASV tracks as an option and using the "real" undercarriage that everyone else is using is the day I switch from Bobcat to CAT, I just hope they keep that neat suspension set up though, that really makes a difference in operator comfort.

BrandonsLawnAndSnow
11-04-2007, 03:20 PM
The day I see a press release from CAT regarding using ASV tracks as an option and using the "real" undercarriage that everyone else is using is the day I switch from Bobcat to CAT, I just hope they keep that neat suspension set up though, that really makes a difference in operator comfort.

same with me

bobcat_ron
11-04-2007, 03:50 PM
I considered a CAT rubber tired skidsteer with the VTS but it makes the overall width too much, I need to keep my width at 66" at the tracks, anymore and I have to buy a new 4-n-1 bucket, grapple and C/I buckets, total cost of $8000, cheaper to stay in the current width.

Scag48
11-05-2007, 12:53 AM
I really hope Cat has it figured out with the C series undercarriages, only time will tell with repair costs, etc.. With a Cat machine, at least for the < B series, I think the VTS route with a wheeled machine is probably the best bet or steel OT tracks for most guys who need the extra pushing power and flotation of tracks doing general excavation/landscape work. I will still argue that even with high costs of undercarriage upkeep, if you're an owner/operator who understands how to correctly operate the machine and realize it needs to be used in specialized applications only, the costs become much less of an eyesore. It's the guys who buy a Cat MTL for a landscape crew who doesn't even need tracks to begin with and an operator that is probably average at best that ruins the reputation of these machines.

bobcat_ron
11-05-2007, 08:51 AM
You couldn't have said it better, that's one reason CAT Rental stores don't have the MTL's, they don't need a bunch of weekend warriors out there destroying the tracks.
When I bought my T190, the first set of tracks were gone after 950 hrs, but now I got more life out of the 2nd set due to learning from my mistakes, that's why I'd like to take a CAT 247 for a spin in some 3" minus crushed rock we use here, shovel a bunch into the tracks and see what happens.

BrandonV
11-05-2007, 06:35 PM
my 287b tracks lasted 1k hours, but they were abused and a job we did with a real rocky (mountain) soil finished them off, but I probably could have gone another hundred or so hours. they WERE more expensive to replace than my 864s but I've not had to replace anything on the cat like bearings and rollers like i did on the bobcat so I think its evened out.

bobcat_ron
11-05-2007, 07:56 PM
Holy cow!

I have been leaning more towards a CAT MTL lately, I know what to avoid now.