Fimco-meister need pump meisters

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

I can't find the original thread so here goes.

I have an existing system on a 5hp pump that looks like it was originally a city water system that got converted. The pump has croaked from repeated flooding and needs to be replaced and moved to higher ground. The new pump will be located 13' above the creek and will be 40' in fed by 2" pipe. The mainline is 1 1/2". Still a dinky pipe system but for me this is a massive giant job.:)

To keep the yard alive I disconnected the pump line and re-hooked the system to the water meter. This also allowed for gallonage readings. Half the zones are pgps so I'd like to have 55psi at the pgps.

Here are the zone gpm readings 20 total stations

1. 32gpm spray 2. 18gpm spray 3. 26gpm spray 4. 10gpm pgps 5. 20gpm spray 6. 18gpm pgps 7. 26gpm spray 8. 44gpm tree bubblers 9. 22gpm pgps 10. 22gpm pgps 11. 28gpm pgps 12. 34gpm tree bubblers 13. 18gpm spray 14. 32 gpm spray 15. 24gpm spray 16. 36gpm pgps 17. 30gpm pgps 18. 38gpm pgps 19. 26gpm pgps 20. 38gpm pgps.

I have attempted this myself but I'm withholding my results since posting those would cause us to spend way too much time I'm why I'm a numb-skull.

Thanks
peter

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

I found the original thread and bumped to the top to alert all previous posters.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=190545

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

55 psi is 127.05 ft hd right?

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Also the system is uphill from the pump. Max I'm guessing is 8'. Furthest head/rotor 250' from pump.

[Wet_Boots]

How fixed are those flow rates? Since PGPs can be renozzled, and bubblers exchanged, the flows might be brought to 20 gpm or less, and you could use a Goulds J15S (http://www.goulds.com/pdf/BJS+.pdf) ~ I like their jet pumps, and would go a ways to have a system that a J15S could supply.

The next step up is a multi-stage centrifugal from Sta-rite (Berkeley) http://www.starite.com/specs/berk_b2094bk.pdf Bigger case, inlet and outlet, raised suction to help hold prime. This pump is a better fit for the 30+ gpm flows you mentioned. I've never used this 4-stage centrifugal, so I don't know how reliable it is. The performance curve exceeds that of a Goulds 2 HP multistage centrifugal. For a 40 foot suction line at 30+ gpm, with a foot valve, there might be some sense to using a larger suction line than 2-inch, but you're probably okay with 2-inch.

[Kiril]

How fixed are those flow rates? Since PGPs can be renozzled, and bubblers exchanged, the flows might be brought to 20 gpm or less, and you could use a Goulds J15S (http://www.goulds.com/pdf/BJS+.pdf) ~ I like their jet pumps, and would go a ways to have a system that a J15S could supply.

I would have to agree with regard to getting the flow rates down. Take a good look at what can be done to achieve that, pick an achievable target GPM based your pump of choice sweet spot.

[Kiril]

55 psi is 127.05 ft hd right?

1 foot of head = 0.433 psi for a column of water

Or more simply put you lose or gain 0.433 psi/ft of elevation change.

55 psi = 127.02078521939953810623556581986 feet of head :)

[drmiller100]

dude,
reread my comments. they still are right. The pump WANTS to pump 70 gallons per minute.
if you don't let it pump as much water as it wants, you are going to have huge amounts of noise and burn your pump up quickly and waste a bunch of water and piss everyone off cuz the pump is noisy.
70 gallons a minute through a 2 inch suction line is a JOKE. Sucking oatmeal through a straw and wondering why you are hungry.
pushing 70 gallons a minute through a 1.5 inch pressure line is likewise a joke. also really bad is how you neck hte pipe down right out of the pump.

Also, you only have 2 acres and are thinking you have 44 gallons of bubblers per minute. i wonder instead of it is really 44 gallons per hour????
In any case, consider strongly getting a more reasonable pump. It seems to me that if you had 35 gallons per minute, you would have enough water for the biggest zones excluding bubblers. Bubblers will work wiht very low pressure, so I will totally believe the 35 gpm would push the 44 gpm needed for the bubblers.
So, if you are looking at a smaller pump, I would guess 3 horsepower. I would guess that would get you close to 35 gpm at 50 psi, but you need to check my math.
From there, start wiring valves together to get them to add up to 35 gpm, or something kind of close.
wire zone 2 and 5, both sprays, gets you to 38.
4 and 9.
5 and 13

consider renozzling one of hte zones, or do something to get zone 6 up over 30 gpm so the pump runs efficiently.

When running valves together, test them. Run zone 2. turn on zone 5 manually, scratch your head, and figure out if they can run similar times based upon sunshine, coverage, nozzles, etc.

1. 32gpm spray 2. 18gpm spray 3. 26gpm spray 4. 10gpm pgps 5. 20gpm spray 6. 18gpm pgps 7. 26gpm spray 8. 44gpm tree bubblers 9. 22gpm pgps 10. 22gpm pgps 11. 28gpm pgps 12. 34gpm tree bubblers 13. 18gpm spray 14. 32 gpm spray 15. 24gpm spray 16. 36gpm pgps 17. 30gpm pgps 18. 38gpm pgps 19. 26gpm pgps 20. 38gpm pgps.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Thank you Dr Miller. Yes it is 44 gpm but coming from the meter at 70 psi. Don't chomp my head off but is it 35gpm with 50 psi at the pump? Meaning that by the time the water molecules traverse the ups and downs and lefts and rights that I will only have 40-45 at my pgps? Looks like I really need to nozzle my pgps down some. I had figured 3 hp but these folks were sold a 5 hp by a pump expert that croaked (not the expert). This is the first pump job I haven't run from and that is cuz I trust the forum advice.

[drmiller100]

ok, so lets try a test with what you've got.

run a zone. now manually turn a valve or 2 on, and watch what happens.
40 psi at the pgp is a GREAT plenty, and in fact many pump systems won't really provide that. the real question is whether you get head to head coverage, and can you fix it if not.

if your main line is big enough given the pump you have, you should be able to run 2 or 3 valves at one time, and actually EXPECT more pressure at the sprinkler head. Why? Because your pump is so far out of its happy zone, it is thrashing.
however, it is entirely possible your 1.5 inch main line is not big enough. can you run anohter 1.5 main line into the other end of hte valve box?

do NOT nozzle down and expect better results. you might get somewhat better results for the short term, but in reality you are actually tearing up your expensive pump even faster.
finally, the suction line. it goes into the pond. What is at the end of the suction line? does it restrict flow?????

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

ok, so lets try a test with what you've got.

run a zone. now manually turn a valve or 2 on, and watch what happens.
40 psi at the pgp is a GREAT plenty, and in fact many pump systems won't really provide that. the real question is whether you get head to head coverage, and can you fix it if not.

if your main line is big enough given the pump you have, you should be able to run 2 or 3 valves at one time, and actually EXPECT more pressure at the sprinkler head. Why? Because your pump is so far out of its happy zone, it is thrashing.
however, it is entirely possible your 1.5 inch main line is not big enough. can you run anohter 1.5 main line into the other end of hte valve box?

do NOT nozzle down and expect better results. you might get somewhat better results for the short term, but in reality you are actually tearing up your expensive pump even faster.
finally, the suction line. it goes into the pond. What is at the end of the suction line? does it restrict flow?????

They split it up into two separate suctions and the HO tells me he gets into waste deep water to clean them. It is a creek not a pond.

[drmiller100]

pumps are different. you need to think about them differnetly.

I thought of one way to sort of describe it. Take your 5 horsepower pump, and put a 1 inch ball valve just off the exit of the pump that dumps water all over the ground.

run a zone. Now open the ball valve until your water pressure is 50 psi. Now watch all the wasted water, adn think about how you are actually saving money in electricity and significantly increasing the lifespan of the pump by wasting all that water.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

pumps are different. you need to think about them differnetly.

I thought of one way to sort of describe it. Take your 5 horsepower pump, and put a 1 inch ball valve just off the exit of the pump that dumps water all over the ground.

run a zone. Now open the ball valve until your water pressure is 50 psi. Now watch all the wasted water, adn think about how you are actually saving money in electricity and significantly increasing the lifespan of the pump by wasting all that water.

Thanks Doc you've done a good job. I'll print your posts for the HO to review.

[Wet_Boots]

Uhhh, there are some problems with this analysis of the 5 HP pump. I don't see pumps being damaged from flow that's restricted at the outlet. If someone wants to waste energy trying for maximum pressure, (coupled with inefficiency) from a centrifugal pump, no big deal.

Now, you restrict the suction side, and you got trouble. Right here in River City! Too much suction lift, pipe too small, inlet strainers clogged - and it can sound like marbles are bouncing around inside the cast-iron pump. That's your cavitation. Centrifugal pumps suffer from this more than jet pumps do, which is why I like to use jet pumps for lawn sprinklers.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Uhhh, there are some problems with this analysis of the 5 HP pump. I don't see pumps being damaged from flow that's restricted at the outlet. If someone wants to waste energy trying for maximum pressure, (coupled with inefficiency) from a centrifugal pump, no big deal.

Now, you restrict the suction side, and you got trouble. Right here in River City! Too much suction lift, pipe too small, inlet strainers clogged - and it can sound like marbles are bouncing around inside the cast-iron pump. That's your cavitation. Centrifugal pumps suffer from this more than jet pumps do, which is why I like to use jet pumps for lawn sprinklers.

How does a jet work different than a centrifugal?

[Wet_Boots]

Jet pumps send some of the outlet water back into the inlet, in what's called an ejector. Think of it as a combination of a nozzle and a venturi. The jet pump develops higher pressure than a single-stage centrifugal does, and the fact that the pressure tops out at less than 100 psi means the pump won't damage my poly mainline, even if a zone valve sticks shut.

Now, a 1 HP jet will never push 40 gpm, like a 1 HP centrifugal could, but who's running sprinklers at 20 psi? The jet trades off flow for pressure.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Jet pumps send some of the outlet water back into the inlet, in what's called an ejector. Think of it as a combination of a nozzle and a venturi. The jet pump develops higher pressure than a single-stage centrifugal does, and the fact that the pressure tops out at less than 100 psi means the pump won't damage my poly mainline, even if a zone valve sticks shut.

Now, a 1 HP jet will never push 40 gpm, like a 1 HP centrifugal could, but who's running sprinklers at 20 psi? The jet trades off flow for pressure.

How big can a jet go? And will it meet my numbers?

[Wet_Boots]

I linked the 1-1/2 HP Goulds J15S, and with some renozzling, you could get by. At a 13 foot lift, flows at higher pressures would be closer to 20 gpm. But you could cover 2 acres with 20 gpm, if your running times aren't restricted.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

I linked the 1-1/2 HP Goulds J15S, and with some renozzling, you could get by. At a 13 foot lift, flows at higher pressures would be closer to 20 gpm. But you could cover 2 acres with 20 gpm, if your running times aren't restricted.

Seems scary. I'll review and posts further queries. Do I need to try and balance all the zones to a similar gpm? When you say higher pressures what do you mean?

[Wet_Boots]

Goulds and Sta-rite performance curves

[drmiller100]

wetboots, how does what you posted help anything??????
it isn't realistic to redesign the entire system to uses a 1.5 horse pump, neither jet nor impeller.

[Wet_Boots]

I figure it's more helpful than leading an inexperienced user into tutorial pages about Net Positive Suction Head requirements. Since it is possible to effectively cover 2 acres with a bit more than 20 gpm, a jet pump is an option. For that matter, so would examining pump performance on the zones with the lowest flow rates. If the existing pump operates with no cavitation at 20 gpm, however far that is from its peak efficiency, then it could remain in place. I am of the opinion that the suction line is limited in capacity, since it already includes a 13 foot lift.

[Kiril]

I think a good point to take from it is 5 hp is overkill. With a minimum of work you can get the required flow rates down and get a pump that doesn't cost a small fortune.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

I think a good point to take from it is 5 hp is overkill. With a minimum of work you can get the required flow rates down and get a pump that doesn't cost a small fortune.

My price on a 5 hp was 1800.00:dizzy: I see what Dr. is saying though. Leary has mentioned a variable pump? that I guess would adjust to different flow rates?

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

I went back and reviewed the notes. Saw WB's mention of the sta-rite variable which i suspect is what Mike was referring to. Unless somebody convinces me otherwise my plan is to install a 3hp pump. Forget the tree bubbler zones. They were for initial establishment. Renozzle some pgps and do what i need to do to have about 20-25 gpm a station. I can't change the suction pipe so I'm stuck with the 2" inlet. Can't run another 1.5" mainline so I'm stuck with the 1.5" I have. My biggest concern is being 13' up and 40' from the creek. Anybody want to recommend a reliable 3 hp pump? This is their 4th pump in 7 years because of all the flooding. My first time with them.

[Kiril]

What is your TDH and target pressure? A self-priming variable makes sense for irrigation.

[Kiril]

Something you might find an interesting read

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/industry/bestpractices/pdfs/variable_speed_pumping.pdf

[Wet_Boots]

You need to examine the existing setup. See if the pump is making rude noises on the 18 gpm zone. Use the ball valve on the outlet, and see if any cavitation can be eliminated by restricting flow.

Rethink the suction line. Eliminate flow losses in it. You can't eliminate the lift, so you may have to oversize the line, and come up with some bigass inlet strainers to keep things flowing.

I think the Sta-Rite SSHM-2 was made to order for situations like yours, where lines are undersized, and extra pressure is needed.

(Of course, you could renozzle everything to consume less than 20 gpm, whereupon the lines won't be undersized!)

[Kiril]

Two possible Gould pumps:

http://www.goulds.com/product.asp?ID=88&MASTERID=1

http://www.goulds.com/product.asp?ID=283&MASTERID=1

And their irrigation product cutsheet.

http://www.goulds.com/pdf/BRIRRI.pdf

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Thanks guys-I've got a lot of time tied up in this job so I need to get it finished. i'll review the info this afternoon and make a final decision.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

One more note. The current pump is dead and flips the breaker when reactivated. It was noisy when it was working and has been flooded several times. I suspect it was kicked on while still wet or under water. I don't have a pump to play with so all these readings are based on city water at 70 psi at the high point of the system. The pump is at the system low point.

[Wet_Boots]

Do you own a vacuum gauge? That can give you some numbers on what's happening on the suction side.

I tend to concentrate on the suction side, because that's where the most problems happen. Open it wide, and let it breath easy, and pump woes can dissappear.

For the $1800 they wanted for another 5 HP pump, I could score a pair of Goulds J15S pumps and a second suction line, and run two pumps in parallel.

[PurpHaze]

Use the ball valve on the outlet, and see if any cavitation can be eliminated by restricting flow.

I'm not a pump guy but the "pump expert" I listened to at a VFD pump seminar a couple of months ago said this was not good to do. He then proceeded to fire up their mobile pump (with computer sensors attached and projected onto a large screen) and we watched the pump curve disintegrate before our very eyes when he throttled down the outlet valve.

[Wet_Boots]

I hate the whole idea of running a big centrifugal at lower flows, but running with restricted outlet flow is part of priming a jet pump when I start up a system, and it damages nothing. A lot of money and pump capacity gets wasted when someone picks a spot on a chart of curves, and naturally picks the curve with the highest pressure, which is a high-head 5 HP centrifugal. It will keep on happening.

The fact that someone was in the water clearing the intake points towards suction restrictions, and cavitation would surely follow. You look at some of the Goulds and Sta-Rite big-case centrifugals, and their flanged intake adapters take larger pipe sizes than that Jacuzzi pump. I could see spending some serious dollars on a better intake setup for this system.

[Wet_Boots]

I should elaborate, and mention that the restricted flow during the priming process is only going on for a few minutes, so that doesn't equate to constantly running a pump far below its efficiency peak. Dr.Pressure had good information (http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=1863100&postcount=21) in the original thread.

[drmiller100]

I would bet the pump was not destroyed by being flooded. I would bet instead it is a too large pump running too far out of its happy zone, and getting fried. Pretty normal.

i don't know anything about closing off the outlet for a jetpump, but on a centrifical pump restricting the outlet on purpose is a VERY BAD THING.
70 psi at the top end of everything is not realistic. If I had 70 psi at my far sprinkler in any job, my world would be a much simpler place.

If the pump is bad, buy a 3 horsepower pump. a 3 horse pump at 45 psi at the far sprinkler should be in the neighborhood of 35 gpm I would guess.

Strongly consider running a larger inlet. I'm not convinced you can't. When redoing the inlet, see if you can't get rid of any bends or 90's that you can, and pay close attention to how the inlet screen is designed.

The idea of putting a vacuum gauge on teh intake line is a REALLY good one. I haven't ever done it before, but it is such an obvious good idea for sure I will be doing it in the future.

[Wet_Boots]

Some pumps prime with difficulty, and the air handling is much improved by having something for the pump to 'push against' - and an air-filled sprinkler system in the springtime doesn't give the needed resistance, so an outlet valve gets closed down enough for the priming to take place. Strictly a hands-on operation while the air leaves the line.

I got my first vacuum gauge when I was trying to use an existing well point to feed a system. Very poor soil (too much clay) supplied little water, and the customary 1/2 HP jet pump wasn't happy, even with flow controls on the zone valves throttled down. I decided I was better off getting a Goulds J5SH to match the restricted supply. The original pump didn't get as far as 25 feet of water on the suction side, before the cavitating began.

[ARGOS]

Trying to deciding which pump to go with...Gould J15BD (http://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/goulds-pumps/belt-driven-jet-pumps-models-j5bd-j7bd-j10bd-j15bd-hsj20bdd-bjbd/14176-67356-_4.html) or a Sta-Rite CJ90F (http://www.starite.com/specs/S5185WS.pdf)

A pump acquaintance of mine thinks the Sta-Rite pumps are crap compared to Gould.

The Sta-Rite at my house has been plugging for 15 years. No problemo.

[AI Inc]

I would take a goulds over a sta right any day of the week.

[Wet_Boots]

Sta-Rite got bought a while back, and the product lines have become blurred. Goulds has also been bought, but their product line seems unchanged.

That Goulds pump is kind of an odd choice. A belt-driven jet pump?

[ARGOS]

Oops. I meant the J15S (http://www.goulds.com/pdf/7297.pdf).

Googled the link. The reason I posted here was because I had searched for the Gould J15S. Lazy Sunday afternoon.

Why would Gould offer a belt driven jet pump?

[Wet_Boots]

Goulds goes way back. You should see their little combination 1/3 HP jet pump and air tank.

I've installed the J15 pumps. Rock solid.

[AI Inc]

what does the s stand for the 15 I beleive means 1.5 hp correct boots?

[Wet_Boots]

S = shallow-well model, with the injector assembly built-in. Without the S, you have the two-pipe convertible deep-well jet pump, for which you can buy a bolt-on injector assembly. Oddly enough, the S version is less expensive.

[Wet_Boots]

Say, what ever happened with the sprinkler system run by the dead/dying 5 HP Jacuzzi centrifugal? I need closure. Maybe Fimco screwed the pooch and had to leave town :)

[ARGOS]

Boots, I have peaked my curiosity accidentally on the belt driven jet pump. Whats the application?

Humid and hot here. Nothing like a cold Rose...or two.

Ps. Worked on an old Jacuzzi 1hp Friday. Has the open housing so the shaft is always spinning within reach. I would have stuck my finger in there if I hadn't lost it back when I got my first air compressor without a cover.

[Wet_Boots]

A belt-driven pump would have no motor, and would be driven by an engine.

Shaft accessibility would always be an important consideration for me. A pump used only seasonally might need to have the shaft loosened up in the springtime, before it's good to go for a year's work.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Say, what ever happened with the sprinkler system run by the dead/dying 5 HP Jacuzzi centrifugal? I need closure. Maybe Fimco screwed the pooch and had to leave town :)

I'm thinking about buying a little coffee shop. Is that closure enough for you?

[Wet_Boots]

So the repair attempt was a dismal failure? That's too bad. :(

[DanaMac]

I'm thinking about buying a little coffee shop. Is that closure enough for you?

When my brother lived in FC, he looked into the little drive thru kiosk coffee shops. FC at the time, did not allow them. Not sure if it has changed.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

They have a drive thru but I don't have a captured audience. I want people to hear my rants at 6am. I'll name it THE MORNING RANT

[Wet_Boots]

Free pigtail with every tenth mocha latte

[hoskm01]

Free pigtail with every tenth mocha latte
I could be into that.

[Mike Leary]

Free pigtail with every tenth mocha latte

Peter running a latte stand boggles the mind.

[DanaMac]

Peter running a latte stand boggles the mind.

beer stand maybe, but not sure of coffee stand.

[ARGOS]

Keep it open mic and I will be by with a morning rant...might give you fuel for yours.

[Wet_Boots]

I got a slogan for the new venture ~

"We don't know beans, but we deliver arabica with attitude!"

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

I flow with great adept from beer steins to fine china.

[Wet_Boots]

Turn on your occupado light, you troll....

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

No it helps me stick out.