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View Full Version : Tracks = $20,000 more?


Total Landscape Solutions
09-10-2007, 08:45 PM
Jut got some ballpark figures from my Bobcat dealer. The T250 is $20,000 more than the S250. I was definitely not expecting that much of a jump in price.

For those of you who had this choice in the past, are you happy with the machine you chose?

In my 13yrs I have almost always had wheels. But the benefits of tracks for walkway and patio excavation are a definite point for the track machine.

I can't help but wonder "Is the extra $20,000 worth it?"

YardPro
09-10-2007, 08:55 PM
i don't understand why they are so much more new.

buy a used one they depreciate pretty fast.

they will come in line with their wheeled counterparts

P.Services
09-10-2007, 08:59 PM
by a used one with 500 hrs or so they drop about 15k-20k

RockSet N' Grade
09-10-2007, 10:52 PM
If you indeed are set on buying a new machine, consider buying a wheeled machine and then purchasing a set of Loegering VTS tracks......new, I believe, are about $11-12,000.........I bought mine used for $8,300.

Gravel Rat
09-10-2007, 10:57 PM
Thats a little over priced for a tracked skid steer. What parts are worth 20 grand more on the CTL ?

How much is it to replace the tracks when they wear out ?

cat2
09-11-2007, 02:44 AM
I think I will stick with my wheeled skid steers. If I have good tires that's all I need.

turboawd
09-11-2007, 03:19 AM
look at other brands. bobcat is the most expensive.
i know you can get a lot better price on a comparable gehl, case, or new holland.

SiteSolutions
09-11-2007, 08:39 AM
In some situations the tracks are the difference between being able to work and having to let someone else do the job. I would not go back to tires. The difference in monthly payment should only be a few hundred bucks; the tracks create that extra amount of money for me easily each month. If they won't pay for themselves in your situation, then I wouldn't get them. For some kinds of work, though, they are really the only way to go.

JDSKIDSTEER
09-11-2007, 09:18 AM
The only thing is that most people get into these machines with no money down and no equity. Then they want to trade every two years. Track machines depreciate so fast that people stay upside down in them. I always try to tlk customers into keeping 4 or 5 years even with rubber tire machines. I see a lot of people make bad business decissions. On the upside, I am taking a customer to Debuqe next week so he can drive his new CT322 off the line at what we call a Gold Key tour.

AWJ Services
09-11-2007, 09:21 AM
Jut got some ballpark figures from my Bobcat dealer. The T250 is $20,000 more than the S250. I was definitely not expecting that much of a jump in price.

Here T300 loaded is about 55K(last years prices)
A S300 was 45k.



For those of you who had this choice in the past, are you happy with the machine you chose?

Absolutely.


I can't help but wonder "Is the extra $20,000 worth it?"



Here in Georgia we have the luxury of being able too purchase Takeuchi machines very cheap.
I could not have purchased a wheeled machine for any cheaper.
But if I had too pay 20 k more than a wheeled machine too have a tracked machine I would probally have a tired machine.

Gravel Rat
09-11-2007, 04:15 PM
When I watched a Cat CTL working on a job the machine was nice and smooth no bouncing around like a rubber tired machine. When the operator was turning on the pavement there was no jumping around like rubber tired skid steer tend to do.

A tracked machine will go places a rubber tired machine wouldn't dream of going into.

RockSet N' Grade
09-11-2007, 06:34 PM
JDSkid.....since you are in the sales end, have you seen any statistics or have a gut feel about percentage of people that go into these 0 down? Are you seeing returns of machines yet? In your experience, what have you seen as the "typical loss of value" on a tracked machine over 1,2,3,4,5 yr. time frame? Any information you have along those lines would be most appreciated.

Mr. Digger
09-11-2007, 09:16 PM
JDSkid.....since you are in the sales end, have you seen any statistics or have a gut feel about percentage of people that go into these 0 down? Are you seeing returns of machines yet? In your experience, what have you seen as the "typical loss of value" on a tracked machine over 1,2,3,4,5 yr. time frame? Any information you have along those lines would be most appreciated.


I am also interested in your reply JDSkid as I am looking to acquire one in the next year or two. Also maybe you can't say but how long can I expect to wait unit I can get the Deere with pilot controls (cat style) ?

Thanks:canadaflag: :cool2:

NHMan
09-11-2007, 09:54 PM
A good rule of thumb is during the first year of ownership you will take a hit of 20%, the second year is 15% and the third is also 15%. After three years it gets hard to be accurate.

Example:
original sales price of $30,000
after first year fair value = $24,000
after second year fair value = $20,400
after third year fair value= $17,340

Keep in mind this is only a rough estimate based on what people pay for a $30,000 machine after its first,second,third year of ownership. Different markets and different brands yield different returns. Condition of unit and hours plays a major part, but there is no proven science.

AWJ Services
09-11-2007, 09:58 PM
Find a one year old Takeuchi TL140 with cab and air for
with less than 500 hours for 33k.

I looked for a solid year before I bought mine.
Going on 2 years mine is still worth within 15% of what I paid for it.
Of course if I paid 10k too much that would be a different story.

SiteSolutions
09-11-2007, 10:05 PM
It poured rain on me today but I stayed dry and productive in my enclosed cab track machine. Much better than staying at home. I just made this month's payment. :)

JDSKIDSTEER
09-16-2007, 10:48 PM
JDSkid.....since you are in the sales end, have you seen any statistics or have a gut feel about percentage of people that go into these 0 down? Are you seeing returns of machines yet? In your experience, what have you seen as the "typical loss of value" on a tracked machine over 1,2,3,4,5 yr. time frame? Any information you have along those lines would be most appreciated.
Joy sticks next spring on large frame machines. Track machines are still so new to Deere that I am just seeing some machines being traded in. Most of my customers want in at 0% down if they qualify. My recomendation for anyone is to try and get 3 or 4 years on your machine before trading in. That seems to be where the depretiation levels off. I just traded my first CT322 in and am getting a lot of calls about it, but not sure what it will resale for yet. So far we are seeing two sets of tracks replaced without replacing any rollers, idlers and sprockets. Better than suspected. I feel and hoping that track machines 1 to 2 years old with 1500 hours or less will bring a third less price than new. Similar to rubber tire units. I have done this with traded in Bobcats and Tac's. We will see. Cat has not been able to do this with there track units. As popular as they are new I would think they would do better used than they do. Like I said, it is all still new to me. I am far from expert on resale of track units at this time.

SiteSolutions
09-17-2007, 12:03 AM
I took my boy by the Cat store in Madison Friday afternoon. Got a couple fliers and talked to the store manager about the track machines. He said that the rollers are "wear items"... When I told him about working on and around rocks he kinda lost his momentum. Said they're great for landscaping. What I can't figure out is why would I need a suspension if I can't go over anything really bumpy? Reminds me of people who drive big hoss SUVs and slow down to like 10 mph over railroad tracks.:confused:

I don't guess he's going to let me demo one. :(

Scag48
09-17-2007, 01:24 AM
You missed his point. Shar rocks and abrasive materials are harder on the tracks than soft material, watch the video that's posted in another thread, it's all explained in there. The suspension is good if you're working rough ground, like washboard type bumps, not so much abrasive materials, there's a difference between the two. Larger rocks that are smooth, not sharp, aren't really going to hurt the tracks and the suspension would aid in those situations.

SiteSolutions
09-17-2007, 08:56 AM
I had watched the video. Well, most of it. It was interesting and I am certainly aware that nothing is for free, that is, every engineering decision is a trade-off. I am simply stating that for me, a suspension would not be worth the investment because of it's reduced durability. I also wonder why I would need one if i were only pushing a power rake all day long.

I would really like to try that pressurized cab but I would feel dishonest if I told the guy that I would consider buying the Cat machine. As much as I am sure I would enjoy operating it, I am just as sure I would hate fixing the undercarriage all the time.

He did mention the Loegering tracks; maybe that's worth consideration. A lot of folks on here are nuts about them, but somebody told me they actually take the front drive chains off the loader when they set these up, so if you go back to tires, you've got a 2 wheel drive loader.:confused:

What model Cat loader do you have? What sort of abuse do you give it, and how does it hold up? Maybe I'm being overcautious.

RockSet N' Grade
09-17-2007, 08:18 PM
Overcautious with questions is good. I bought a new Gehl wheeled and put Loegering VTS track system on it. Granted, I only have about 150 hrs. on the track system and paid $8,300 for them. Would I do it again? In a heart beat!! More tractive effort, smoother ride.......we are doing a rock wall on a hill side right now, and without tracks....there would be no way of going up and down safely. Would I buy a Gehl skid again? I am not so sure......my bias is shifting to Case and Cat for one simple reason. I am not very tall, ( 5' 9" ) and visability is an issue for me. Look at the way Gehl and Deere have their front bucket cylinders mounted and then look at Case and Cat. Gehl and Deere are mounted inside the arms, and for me create a reduced vision situation to my bucket edges. Case mounts their cylinders on top of the arms.....and Cat has them hidden. It is something small that I have noticed, not a deal breaker, but both Cat and Case have better bucket edge visability. Alot of KittyCat guys are buying tire machine and putting on VTS......who knows, the C series may be the "meow". Hours of use and a year or so will tell.......

turboawd
09-17-2007, 11:00 PM
Overcautious with questions is good. I bought a new Gehl wheeled and put Loegering VTS track system on it. Granted, I only have about 150 hrs. on the track system and paid $8,300 for them. Would I do it again? In a heart beat!! More tractive effort, smoother ride.......we are doing a rock wall on a hill side right now, and without tracks....there would be no way of going up and down safely. Would I buy a Gehl skid again? I am not so sure......my bias is shifting to Case and Cat for one simple reason. I am not very tall, ( 5' 9" ) and visability is an issue for me. Look at the way Gehl and Deere have their front bucket cylinders mounted and then look at Case and Cat. Gehl and Deere are mounted inside the arms, and for me create a reduced vision situation to my bucket edges. Case mounts their cylinders on top of the arms.....and Cat has them hidden. It is something small that I have noticed, not a deal breaker, but both Cat and Case have better bucket edge visability. Alot of KittyCat guys are buying tire machine and putting on VTS......who knows, the C series may be the "meow". Hours of use and a year or so will tell.......so how much did it cost you for machine and tracks?

RockSet N' Grade
09-17-2007, 11:28 PM
TurboAWD....like I said, tracks (used) $8,300.......I think they go new for 11-13k....there is a used set on ebay right now for 5k or so for a kitty-cat.
I think w/out sales tax my machine was 38,000.......the only option I didn't get was a rotating beacon. Counterweight, h/air cab, ride control, pilots, suspension seat, quick change run from inside the cab and yada-yada-yada.

turboawd
09-18-2007, 12:38 AM
TurboAWD....like I said, tracks (used) $8,300.......I think they go new for 11-13k....there is a used set on ebay right now for 5k or so for a kitty-cat.
I think w/out sales tax my machine was 38,000.......the only option I didn't get was a rotating beacon. Counterweight, h/air cab, ride control, pilots, suspension seat, quick change run from inside the cab and yada-yada-yada.

so unless you need wheels also, a track machine is the same or cheaper than your setup. a gehl ctl 70 costs about 45K fully loaded.

one thing i dont like about the vts, is the fact that it drives only off the rear axles, correct? most skidsteers have the drive motor centered between the front and rear wheels, connected via chains to the axles. if you are only driving off the rear axle, you are using only the rear chains. you're also putting more side stress on the drive motor since only one chain is working, the other chain doesnt provide any pull since you are not using it.

ksss
09-18-2007, 01:29 AM
The rear drive only is also a concern that I had. How valid it is I am not sure. I spoke with an engineer from CASE about it and they had not heard of any failures from using the VTS system. That of course does not mean there are not any. I used the VTS on a 70XT. This machine happened to be one of my trade ins so I know what the machine could do with wheels. The difference is almost unbelievable. The 70XT/440 make big power in a small relative light package. Adding that kind of tractive effort to that combination is begging for problems. I think some common sense has to be used when running a VTS system on these high hp wheeled machines. Pushing them like I typically do is not a good idea. I think if you give it a continuous diet of hard pushing you will see some failures in any machine but especially in the high hp lighter machines like the 440, 246 and the equivelent Gehl machines. Conversely the 90XT/450/465 machines being much beefier would be more inclined to handle a steady diet of hard use with a VTS system as the they have the same hp as the 440 just weigh another 3K.

The purchase price maybe the same or even cheaper with the CTL however the trade in will certainly be better on the wheeled machine. That at least seems to be the case with most of these CTL's which don't seem to be holding their value very well.

betterview2
09-18-2007, 10:46 AM
are the VTS 11,000 bucks a side or for a set? cause i would like them for my ls190

RockSet N' Grade
09-18-2007, 10:11 PM
betterview.......that's a set. There is a pair on ebay right now, didn't look at it today, but they were selling for 5-6k.

RockSet N' Grade
09-18-2007, 10:19 PM
Trade in value is one of the factors that led me to go the way I went. Also, having the ability to go to tires in an hour also was a consideration. I got an extended warranty in that purchase price to hedge my bet on the possibility of the VTS causing problems. The VTS (in writing from my salesman and dealer) do not void my warranty and any problems that may pop up associated with that will be covered.........I made sure that was part of the deal because this is a bit of an experiment on my part.

PlatinumLandCon
09-18-2007, 11:16 PM
I'm waiting for tthomass to give a rave review about his new (used) T190. He's saying he'll NEVER go back to wheels.

SiteSolutions
09-18-2007, 11:32 PM
I would like to hear about it, too.

tthomas: How's the T-190 treating you? Mine's been pretty good to me so far.

Canon Landscaping
09-19-2007, 12:57 AM
I have both a skid steer and a ctl would never go back to wheels

Deere 320 $25000 + tracks $3500 = $28500

Deere ct322 = $34000

Not having to take steel tracks on and off and not having to change
flats = $Priceless