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MysticLights
09-11-2007, 07:17 PM
1st post-glad to find this website.

Have a job coming up, a nice Log Home, most of the lighting will be in the back around the deck, hot tub , gazebo,etc.
But they also want some accent lighting on the front of the house and front walk. The house is a large 2 story Log home with Log Diameters of 18 to 22 inches,( dark stained wood ) large sloping roof with 3 dormers. The house is also surrounded by tall trees as well.
So heres the catch, the front has to be done with 6-8 fixtures max, it's a rush job for a up coming party and home owner wants 2 of those to be path lights. Moonlighting can be done nicely from both sides but thats about 100 plus feet across.The roof also over hangs the front so up lighting is cut short at 10ft above grade.

I will be going out one night this week with a pile of different fixtures and bulbs and do the old trail and error technique...BUT..

Anybody have any pointers for dealing with large diameter dark stained logs,
These logs will also cast alot of shadows, not mention the dark stain.

Good news is home owners knows what I'm faced with and will be happy regardless, and there is plans for more fixtures in the spring. so just need to make it look nice and balanced.

Thanks :hammerhead:

NightScenes
09-11-2007, 07:40 PM
I suggest using wash or flood lights instead of bullets for these logs. This will give a more even coverage. Some down lights and an oversized transformer for the future upgrades.

Chris J
09-11-2007, 07:46 PM
Because of the dark color, the effect of the light will be absorbed. You will need to use higher wattage lamps to get good effects. The minimum lamp you will use for wall washing will probably be 35w. It would be nice if you could post a pic, but it sounds like you are going to have your back against a wall if you are limited to only 6 fixtures for a home that large. Good luck.

extlights
09-11-2007, 09:25 PM
We had the pleasure of installing a system on a log home a couple of years ago. This was by far our toughest design to come up with, not only because of being a log home, but also because this particular home has been in many magazines and won numerous awards. Needless to say everything had to be perfect.

What ended up looking the best on the home itself were flood lights with 35 watt wfl's. We actually moved the fixtures back about a foot further than we normally would to get rid of some of the shadows, all the while being careful not to shine the light into the home itself. We didn't want to get rid of the shadows all together because that's what brought out the character of the home. Anyway, I'd recommend from experience going with 35w well lights on the facade of the home. There will probably be some shadows from the logs, but unless the homeowner specifies differently, in my opinion it's what kept the character of the home intact.

Chris J
09-11-2007, 10:13 PM
ext,
I was with you until you said "well lights". That's when I left you all by yourself.

pete scalia
09-11-2007, 10:24 PM
ext,
I was with you until you said "well lights". That's when I left you all by yourself.

If not for wellights what do you install in grass?

Chris J
09-11-2007, 10:32 PM
In his application, I'm assuming that there are mulch/planting beds against the home. If not, I'm also assuming that his definition of "well light" is the typical sewer pipe with the par36 lamp. If I have to install a fixture in grass, I will use an in-ground, recessed enclosed MR-16 fixture. To me, par lamps simply suck. But I'm nobody, and this is just my opinion so please take no offense. If you like them, then you go right ahead and use a bunch of them.

pete scalia
09-11-2007, 10:55 PM
how bout mr-16 wellights? the non enclosed variety

Chris J
09-11-2007, 11:02 PM
If it's the type I'm thinking of, this will not do you much good in a "grass" setting as they will be an obstacle for the lawn guys just like the other types of well lights would be. This type of light causes more aggravation and service than it does any good. If your going to use an MR16, I would suggest either the recessed inground, or regular bullet and create your own mulch bed around it.

pete scalia
09-11-2007, 11:18 PM
If it's the type I'm thinking of, this will not do you much good in a "grass" setting as they will be an obstacle for the lawn guys just like the other types of well lights would be. This type of light causes more aggravation and service than it does any good. If your going to use an MR16, I would suggest either the recessed inground, or regular bullet and create your own mulch bed around it.\

how can I use a bullett in the middle of the lawn and build a mulch bed around it. It will stick out like a sore thumb and I don't think my clients will appreciate re-landscaping their homes without notice. I'm talking bout those ones like Nightscaping has with the grates over them. masterliter I think it's called. yeah that's the ticket.

Chris J
09-11-2007, 11:41 PM
Although I'm not familiar with the nightscaping line, I looked on their web-site and found that the master-lighter was an MR16 well light with no cover. If you were to install this fixture in an open lawn application, the first time the mower went by the entire fixture would fill up with debris. As I said, my recommendations are only suggestions and you are certainly free to use any fixture you wish to use in your designs. Good luck with your maintenance and service agreements! You're customers are going to just love you in a couple of years!

extlights
09-11-2007, 11:49 PM
We actually use a lot of well lights. Over the years I've been able to get used to them and the look you can get from them. In this particular application these lights were installed in stone. No potential hazzards were anywhere near them. We do use covers on all of them as well....plus, if placed in the correct situations, they are basically fool proof, unbreakable fixtures.

I guess I'm the minority here when it comes to fixtures. I've never been a fan of the bullet style fixtures and we probably only install 50-75 of them per year. One of our main goals on all projects is finding a way to make all fixtures un-noticeable (with the exception of pathway lighting of course). I had a very high end customer years ago who didn't want to see one fixture anywhere around his home. Now of course walking close to his home you will see fixtures, but basically he didn't want to see anything from the driveway, street..etc. He said he didn't like looking at a home and seeing a bunch of lights sticking out of the ground. After he mentioned that to me, I started looking at homes and started thinking the same thing.

Now I know this can't always be accomplished, but it's something we strive to do on all projects. Most customers aren't this picky and won't really care, it's just something I picked up on from this particular customer. I feel that as long as your smart on your placement and positioning, you can achive a desired look using a lot of different style fixtures.

pete scalia
09-11-2007, 11:58 PM
Although I'm not familiar with the nightscaping line, I looked on their web-site and found that the master-lighter was an MR16 well light with no cover. If you were to install this fixture in an open lawn application, the first time the mower went by the entire fixture would fill up with debris. As I said, my recommendations are only suggestions and you are certainly free to use any fixture you wish to use in your designs. Good luck with your maintenance and service agreements! You're customers are going to just love you in a couple of years!

are you saying nightscaping's wrong? They've been around since before we all were born.

David Gretzmier
09-12-2007, 12:59 AM
open wells, even the mr-16 variety are a pain. I just reapired/replaced two nightscaping units- the master liter mentioned. when I heard my cost on it, I convinced the homeowner to go with bullets since it is a bed area. If you gotta do wells, go sealed mr-16. bulb life and debris. I also agree on the 35 watt 60 degrees for logs.

Chris J
09-12-2007, 01:03 AM
are you saying nightscaping's wrong? They've been around since before we all were born.

OK, I guess I'm going to have to respond to two post at the same time.
1. extlights: the point of not being able to see the fixtures is exactly why I don't use well lights. The lamps are large and combersome, and you can usually see them from virtually every viewing angle in the space. But, as I said, some contractors like to use them so to each his own.


2. Pete: If this is the only way you can understand my statements then Yes, I am saying that Nightscaping is wrong. Just because they have been around since Jesus was born does not mean it is still the right way to do things. If this were the case, our cell phones would still be the size of suit cases! In case you mis-read my post, however, this is just my own opinion. I do not claim to be the "know it all of landscape lighting". There are many other designers that I believe do as good (or better) than I do, so this is just my own humble opinion. Take it or leave it, but it is my opinion.

steveparrott
09-12-2007, 08:52 AM
A couple pics. I didn't take these so I'm not sure what was used. They look like MR-16 bullets - maybe 35w, 36 degree.

{It seems the attachment function isn't working now - I'll try again later.}

JoeyD
09-12-2007, 09:21 AM
Chris J......Whats so wrong with Par 36 Lamps? A good Par 36 is arguably the most versatile lamp you can use. I understand a dislike for well lights but the Par 36 lamp especially GE's Sealed Beam Halogen Par 36 are a great lamp with awesome color rendition. I could see lighting this log home with some Par 36's. Especially if you only have 6 lights to work with.

NightScenes
09-12-2007, 11:15 AM
My major problem with PAR lamps is that they cost 3 times what an MR does and they last half as long. I have had VERY bad luck with them and completely quit using them a couple of years ago. I was having those things burn up in my hand as I installed them. I'm not talking about cheapies either, these were GE lamps.

JoeyD
09-12-2007, 11:28 AM
WOW. I have never had any bad experieces with GE Par 36 Halogen lamps. The incandescent 4414's have been a ngithmare but the halogen's for me have been great.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-12-2007, 12:50 PM
Hi Mystic... Fellow Ontario Lighting Guy here. I specialize in lighting log and timberframe homes. Partly cause they are the most challenging structures to light properly and partly because I live in a log home and had to cut my teeth on it.

Forget all of this wall washing and uplight grazing that the rest of the guys here specialize in! Nothing will make that home look more homogenous then simply sticking some floods, bullets, or well lights into the ground and aiming them up. Also, this is not very subtle and I assume this home is located in a rural area. What you probably want to do is to gently, softly and subtly downlight the home from each peak, gable, dormer etc etc. It creates a really lovely look and is very well recieved. The real trick (one which I refuse to give away) is how to safely, discreetly, and effectively retro-fit the wire onto the home so that it cannot be seen. Yes it can and has been done... but you will have to solve that one yourself.

Take some time to design this one right, think outside of the box, and good luck with the project.

Have a great day.

extlights
09-12-2007, 01:09 PM
I wouldn't go as far as saying that all the guys here "specialize" in wall washing and uplight grazing. Everone has their own unique way of designing and installing a project...there is no reason to criticize any professional on here because of their practices, especially seeing as some of us have been doing this for a very long time with excellent results and reputations. We do use a ton of GE Par 36 lamps. We have never had a problem with premature failure ever with these lamps. Maybe it's a climate issue...I'm not sure?

Anyway, my best advice would be to work with your customer on what he's looking to accomplish. Use your design skills and do what you feel will achieve the best results. It seems that maybe this customer might have a tight budget and that's something that you have to consider as well. Maybe down lights could look better in this application (hard to tell without a picture) however because of only being able to use about 6 fixtures on the front, and the time restraint it may not be feasable to finish that type of work in the short amount of time you have. Not only that, but we charge ALOT for downlighting....a budget issue could also come into effect. Go with what you think will work the best. I'm sure you'll be able to figure out a solution that will make you and you're customer happy. Good luck.

JoeyD
09-12-2007, 05:38 PM
Not quite a log home but close.........
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/Hughes2.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/Hughes.jpg

This job was done by Ryan Hughes of Twilights By Design

Chris J
09-12-2007, 06:23 PM
Hi Mystic... Fellow Ontario Lighting Guy here. I specialize in lighting log and timberframe homes. Partly cause they are the most challenging structures to light properly and partly because I live in a log home and had to cut my teeth on it.

Forget all of this wall washing and uplight grazing that the rest of the guys here specialize in! Nothing will make that home look more homogenous then simply sticking some floods, bullets, or well lights into the ground and aiming them up. Also, this is not very subtle and I assume this home is located in a rural area. What you probably want to do is to gently, softly and subtly downlight the home from each peak, gable, dormer etc etc. It creates a really lovely look and is very well recieved. The real trick (one which I refuse to give away) is how to safely, discreetly, and effectively retro-fit the wire onto the home so that it cannot be seen. Yes it can and has been done... but you will have to solve that one yourself.

Take some time to design this one right, think outside of the box, and good luck with the project.

Have a great day.

:clapping: Nice job slamming the rest of us james. Obviously you missed the point that extlights has just described. The job is limited to 6 fixtures, therefore he will have to do what gives him the most bang for the buck. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that more dramatic effects could be created without such a limited plan, but he just needs to satisfy a client's need in short notice with a plan for more later.

Chris J
09-12-2007, 06:27 PM
Chris J......Whats so wrong with Par 36 Lamps? A good Par 36 is arguably the most versatile lamp you can use. I understand a dislike for well lights but the Par 36 lamp especially GE's Sealed Beam Halogen Par 36 are a great lamp with awesome color rendition. I could see lighting this log home with some Par 36's. Especially if you only have 6 lights to work with.

I didn't mean to say that I hated par lamps as much as I dislike the well light fixture itself. Although I also dislike the par lamp because of it's size and cost, there are some applications where I would find it appropriate and very useful.

JoeyD
09-12-2007, 07:17 PM
I didn't mean to say that I hated par lamps as much as I dislike the well light fixture itself. Although I also dislike the par lamp because of it's size and cost, there are some applications where I would find it appropriate and very useful.
Talkin bad about a par 36 is like talkin about my mama!!!

I was just curious, I always thought everyone loved that lamp!

Chris J
09-12-2007, 07:42 PM
Your mama is sooo ugly that......... ha ha! just kidding Joey.

JoeyD
09-12-2007, 07:48 PM
OOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo I am gonna get you!!!!!!:nono:

NightLightingFX
09-12-2007, 10:03 PM
I think PAR 36 lamps have their place. The problem with them is it is hard to use a lens with them (Unless you are using Unique). I think they are hard to create good accenting. However, arguablely they have more of a punch to them. I personally feel they have a stonger more penatrating light then MR16s. Another advantage they have is the angle adjustment of the lamp. Most MR 16 well lights don't have that. And if they do it still isn't as variable as the PAR 36 lamps. I think the stonger light makes them good for uplighting a tree for instance. Regarding long life. I have had good luck with them. It seems like I have had a lot less hassles with the PAR 36 lamps then I have with MR16. Granted I use a lot more MR16 lamps. But I have heard people say they are a maintenance problem. I haven't experienced it. I don't think a PAR 36 fixture should be thrown out with the bath water. And that they deserve the bad press.
~Ned
www.nightlightingfx.com

pete scalia
09-12-2007, 11:10 PM
lotta people like to talk trash on this message board. what's the deal with that?

JoeyD
09-13-2007, 12:48 AM
I dont see much "trash talking", I know me and chris here are just playing around. I think sometimes just like with me and you Pete on the other thread sometimes mean something one way but the way it is read comes off in another. When you have as many people who are as passionate about the same thing (lighting) things are bound to get a little heated at times.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-13-2007, 01:42 AM
:clapping: Nice job slamming the rest of us james. Obviously you missed the point that extlights has just described. The job is limited to 6 fixtures, therefore he will have to do what gives him the most bang for the buck. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that more dramatic effects could be created without such a limited plan, but he just needs to satisfy a client's need in short notice with a plan for more later.

Sorry Chris... I really wasn't trying to "slam" anyone there. I guess I am just a little bit passionate about things at times, and I like to impart a unique and different look to each of my projects.

As for missing Mystic's point that the job is limited to 6 fixtures.... Well, I just finished lighting a 7500 sq foot log home and guess what? The outdoor architectural lighting zone for the 'front' of the building used exactly 6 fixtures. So I know of what I speak.

Sometimes less is more.

Have a great day.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-13-2007, 01:52 AM
Not quite a log home but close.........
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/Hughes2.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/Hughes.jpg

This job was done by Ryan Hughes of Twilights By Design

Thanks Joey. A nice picture of a nice home, and I am sure the lighting system suits the client who is probably very happy.... But.... that is not exactly what I would call quiet, understated, discreet, or subtle.

Around these parts, such a home would probably be vandalized for the amount of over illumination and lack of 'dark sky friendliness'. Our municipal councils are readily adopting outdoor lighting / shoreline lighting development guidelines and policies which would prohibit such a display. As such, we have to be very careful with light levels, sources, intensities etc. That being said, most of my clients are looking for a much softer and gentler approach these days, preferring to softly highlight key architectural features while providing adequate transition lighting. Doing so can be quite challenging but also very rewarding.

Have a great day.

JoeyD
09-13-2007, 09:51 AM
James,
if you read what I posted I said it wasnt QUITE (not quiet) a log home. I understand what you are saying but this designers clients do love his use of combining up and down lighting on the home. It really makes their home stand out in the evening and that is what this particular client wanted. And i would have to disagree with the vandalism point. If I am a criminal this is the last house I am trying to vandalize.

But hey to each his own, what looks good to one person doenst look good to another. Thats the beauty of lighting and the artistic side is what makes it fun!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-13-2007, 03:34 PM
James,
if you read what I posted I said it wasnt QUITE (not quiet) a log home. I understand what you are saying but this designers clients do love his use of combining up and down lighting on the home. It really makes their home stand out in the evening and that is what this particular client wanted. And i would have to disagree with the vandalism point. If I am a criminal this is the last house I am trying to vandalize.

But hey to each his own, what looks good to one person doenst look good to another. Thats the beauty of lighting and the artistic side is what makes it fun!

Hey Joey... I was serious about the vandalism thing... Around here (this is a very rural, naturally dark environment with predominantly seasonal residents) people take outdoor lighting very personally. I have encountered more then a few clients who have had lighting systems disabled and damaged by unhappy neighbours. (not my systems of course!) Even a couple who have had PAR based flood lights mounted in trees shot out by pellet guns!

The issues of over illumination, light trespass, up lighting and glare are all very serious around here. I have built my business on promoting, designing and installing "Dark Sky Friendly Lighting Systems" and have carved a nice niche out doing so.

To each their own and Vive La Difference!

JoeyD
09-13-2007, 04:06 PM
That is crazy!! Next thing I know we will have some crazy dark sky terrorist organization terrorizing our factory like the group that destroyed all those Hummers a few years back!!
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/hummer_firebomber3.jpg

Light pollution is something we all need to be concious of but at the same time if I buy a house, and I own my property my neighbors really shouldnt worry about what I am doing as long as I am not shining my lights into their windows, or hurting their property value.

Anyway, we are way off topic here, the poor guy just wanted to know how to light a log home for crying out loud!! :cry:

cool insight James.

CedarStore
03-19-2010, 10:49 AM
Have a job coming up, a nice Log Home, most of the lighting will be in the back around the deck, hot tub , gazebo,etc.

Are you putting the hottub inside the gazebo (http://www.gazebocreations.com)? This isn't a lighting questions; just curious to see what direction you were taking it.

irrig8r
03-19-2010, 01:33 PM
Hey Cedar.....you realize that you just bumped a 2 and 1/2 year old thread....?

CedarStore
03-19-2010, 01:35 PM
sorry, my mistake. :o

irrig8r
03-19-2010, 03:04 PM
Well, I don't mind... maybe it's relevant to somebody's upcoming project.... just that the original poster has probably already solved his problem by now....