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pete scalia
09-11-2007, 11:25 PM
be the demise of multi tap transformers?

carcrz
09-11-2007, 11:41 PM
not for many years. If nothing else, you'll be able to add more lights @ farther distances now

Chris J
09-11-2007, 11:43 PM
Carcrz,
Are you a competitor of John Pletcher's? He owns Natural Accents.

carcrz
09-11-2007, 11:58 PM
name sounds familiar, he may be on the Kansas side of the city.

David Gretzmier
09-12-2007, 01:52 AM
It is my understanding that some current LED lights work at around 9-14 volts, but not 6 or 7, so I think multi taps will allow you to go further for two reasons- load on wire will be less( less watts ), and the led's will fire on less. multi taps are here to stay.

Only the best LED's are acceptable these days. The new Rebel 0100 from Luxeon is currently the top choice, with the Cree q5 a close second. when many folks actually see these in a 3-array installed, they will start to consider, but probably not buy and install, LED's . The rebel led will bring alot of folks around. it has a warmer tint, and you get alot of lumens for an led.

I would encourage folks to go out and buy a fenix p2d rebel 0100 flashlight for around 60 bucks. you will be shocked at the quality and amount of light coming from this 6 mode light on turbo setting. I'd say it easily exceeds a 10 watt mr-16, probably what a 15 watt narrow spot looks like at 12 volts or so voltage. still pretty white, but not bluish. all in a flashlight the size of my thumb. I use it on demo's for folks who ask about an effect after my lights are already set.

Chris J
09-12-2007, 02:24 AM
That's great, and I'm sure the technology will go farther in the years to come. But what is 10-15w going to do for us right now? Other than some specialty lighting on some small stuff, this is just not enough. Is it really worth the hassle to integrate "some" LED along with the LV? Just curious because I have not ventured there yet.

David Gretzmier
09-12-2007, 02:47 AM
The fenix p2d rebel 0100 has a single LED, aprox 175 lumens on turbo. most mr-16 arrays have 3 cree LED or about 250-350 lumens, aprox 20-25 watt mr-16. the newer rebel mr-16 array with 3 rebel 0100's will be closer to 350-500 lumens, or 35 watt mr-16.

I wouldn't mix and match led and halogen.

but buying a fenix is a great way to at least look at the lumens, color, and mainly just what LEd can do.

Chris J
09-12-2007, 02:58 AM
Thanks for the info Dave. I'm going to look into this stuff to find out what all the fuss is about. What's ironic, is that I've had no customers ask me about it? Maybe this is my fault, or maybe it has just not caught on around here. Either way, it's not an item of necessity and it can wait if need be. I'm looking forward to learning more.
Thanks again!

David Gretzmier
09-13-2007, 12:16 AM
It'll be us that educates the consumer, and It'll be us that will eventually make the switch when the pricing, look and ease of install hits a point that it makes it a no-brainer to go that way. that is probably a few years off, but getting educated is a good way to be out front on the cutting edge.

pete scalia
09-13-2007, 01:05 AM
might remove the intimidating factor by minimizing voltage drop problems and encourage the entrance of a whole new crop of installers and DIYers alike.

sprinkler guy
09-13-2007, 01:10 AM
I've tried a LED once. This particular project had a large Olive tree as its focal point, and the weird grayish-blue light actually looked good on the olive's leaves. Usaully I'll do an olive with an MR-16 and a blue dichroic filter to bring out the color. I had a LED sample from the Vista rep, put it on the tree to see how it looked, and liked the effect. Then I priced the fixtures... almost double the price of a standard uplight with MR-16. This tree needed 4 lights to look right, so I stuck with my FX MUs and added blue filters.

I don't know about the fenix you mentioned Dave, but I couldn't justify the cost difference, especially considering its limited application on my projects.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-13-2007, 03:29 AM
LED lamps have come a long long way in a very short period of time. You basically have to keep up to date week by week at this point to stay on top of the advances in technology. I would recommend you sign up to LED Magazine online edition (free).

As for the CRI of today's LED lamps... They are not all brutal anymore. I have found several LED lamps that have CRIs of 82 and higher. As for colour temperature; 3200K is quite common now for 'warm white' LEDs.

Are they more money? You bet they are! I am currently selling the LED MR16 lamp at 7+ times the price of a GE Halogen MR16 lamp. But that is easily justified when you work out the cost benefit analysis. (by the way, I am currently paying 8+ times the price for these units) In our market, given the price of electricity, halogen MR16 lamps, and the cost to service (change out) the halogen lamps at 2000 - 3000 hour intervals, each LED lamp I install saves the client $200 - $230 over the course of the life of the LED. Multiplied over dozens of fixtures per installation and the cost savings is dramatic.

My advice: Just because you once sampled one LED from one source don't assume that all LED light sources/lamps/modules are the same. This is an rapidly changing and emerging technology, but also one that will become dominant in the very near future. You might just want to embrace it and be the leader in your marketplace.

It never hurts being the first in any market.

Have a great day.

steveparrott
09-13-2007, 01:44 PM
James, as you probably know, LED lumens depreciate with time. The life of an LED is not set at estimated time of complete failure (for 50% of the fixtures)but rather as an estimate of when its lumen level depreciates to 70% of its original level.

For the LED jobs that you maintain, are you planning on replacing the LED lamp (or fixture) when it appears to be overly dim (a highly subjective and difficult assessment) or will you take light meter readings at install for future comparison?

I have nightmares about the time (3 to 4 years from now) when thousands of LED projects have become so dim that they look terrible. Many homeowners will replace the lamps/fixtures but many will not. Also consider that all the lamps/fixtures will need to be replaced at the same time since they will be so much brighter than the ones in the field. Also keep in mind that most LED fixtures do not have replacable LED's, you need to replace the whole fixture.

There is talk about LED's turning themselves off when they reach the 70% level - that may be essential for commercial projects.

JoeyD
09-13-2007, 04:11 PM
Hey Steve, Would the draw/load change on the TF's when the lamp levels depreciate or will it still require the same voltage and show the same draw/load on the system?

steveparrott
09-13-2007, 04:24 PM
Just guessing but I'd say that the voltage requirement will be the same. The load may vary slightly but since we're only talking about a few watts, the change in load resulting in voltage drop will be insignificant.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-13-2007, 04:50 PM
James, as you probably know, LED lumens depreciate with time. The life of an LED is not set at estimated time of complete failure (for 50% of the fixtures)but rather as an estimate of when its lumen level depreciates to 70% of its original level.

For the LED jobs that you maintain, are you planning on replacing the LED lamp (or fixture) when it appears to be overly dim (a highly subjective and difficult assessment) or will you take light meter readings at install for future comparison?

I have nightmares about the time (3 to 4 years from now) when thousands of LED projects have become so dim that they look terrible. Many homeowners will replace the lamps/fixtures but many will not. Also consider that all the lamps/fixtures will need to be replaced at the same time since they will be so much brighter than the ones in the field. Also keep in mind that most LED fixtures do not have replacable LED's, you need to replace the whole fixture.

There is talk about LED's turning themselves off when they reach the 70% level - that may be essential for commercial projects.

Yes Steve I am aware of how the life rating of an LED is devised. As such the LED Lamps I am using are rated by the manufacturer at 50,000 hours and I am de-rating them to my clients to a limit of 35,000 hours. I figure this should give me a nice safety cushion on the units. My cost benefit analysis is based on the 35,000 hour life span.

Furthermore, as a guard against catastrophe, I have built all of my LED based systems on the assumption that if the LEDs fail to perform to standards, the fixtures can be switched back over to Halogen MR16 lamps and no new wiring or transformers will be required. The clients who have made the switch over to LED lamp modules with me are aware that this is a new, emerging technology and seem quite willing to participate. For the most part my clients are early adoptors in all things technological... from computers, to communications, from HVAC systems to Boats. They get a thrill out of having the latest and greatest.

As for the fixtures... I am not using any of the factory installed / assembled and sealed LED based fixtures. I think this is a bad idea. I am only using the best fixtures I can find and fitting them with LED lamp modules. I have never been fond of components that cannot be field serviced/repaired/replaced.

Have a great day.

JoeyD
09-13-2007, 04:56 PM
That is interesting to hear James. We have ran a ton of tests on those bi pin LED's and had very minimal success. In all that I have gathered on LED is that they are very sensative to the elements that is why most manufacturers are having them fully potted along with the driver as to protect them from the changing climates. I find it interesting that you have gone the direction of using the bi pin LED's especially when you are in an area that experiences such harsh winters. How many jobs have you utilized these lamps and how are they holding up? Any failures? This is good stuff to know for all of us I believe.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-13-2007, 05:14 PM
I have tested many different LED Lamp Modules leading up to my decision to go with the units I use now. I have focused solely on finding a MR16 based LED lamp module as I use thousands of MR16 a year here.

So far of all the units I have tested, none have had any problems with being mounted in top quality outdoor lighting fixtures. Clearly if the fixtures you were installing them into leaked or flooded you would have an issue.

The units I am using are rated to function from -35c to +50c and will tolerate high humidity levels. They are rated to have an continuous operating temperature of 85c and included an aluminium heat sink to disapate the heat created by the drivers. (heat is an LED biggest enemy).

So far I have installed about 300 - 350 of these lamp modules and have had no call backs or complaints. I did get one batch with some failures out of the box but the units have a 1 yr warranty and have been replaced with no arguments. The initial test units I got last fall are still burning outside my home 24/7 with no noticible change in output or colour.

Have a great day.

steveparrott
09-13-2007, 05:38 PM
James, you still didn't answer my question:

"For the LED jobs that you maintain, are you planning on replacing the LED lamp (or fixture) when it appears to be overly dim (a highly subjective and difficult assessment) or will you take light meter readings at install for future comparison?"

{Note that this may be our sons or grandsons doing the maintenance since LED's may outlive us!}

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-13-2007, 05:50 PM
Steve. Obviously If I see a lamp module that is not performing properly I will investigate it and replace it. Given that I am dealing with lots of moonlighting from trees in a very dark environment, it is not all that hard to determine which lamps are or are not operating at peak output. If they are significantly dimmed you will notice it.

I plan on being alive and in biz long into the future... lots of time to train my Son!

Have a great day.

David Gretzmier
09-13-2007, 09:54 PM
To reply to that post way up there about the fenix, please understand that fenix is a flashlight, not a fixture. many folks think led, and they think blue keychain things. once someone buys this flashlight, they will definetly understand the landscape light equation.

sprinkler guy
09-13-2007, 11:54 PM
[QUOTE=James Solecki - INTEGRA;1961998]LED lamps have come a long long way in a very short period of time. You basically have to keep up to date week by week at this point to stay on top of the advances in technology. I would recommend you sign up to LED Magazine online edition (free).

As for the CRI of today's LED lamps... They are not all brutal anymore. I have found several LED lamps that have CRIs of 82 and higher. As for colour temperature; 3200K is quite common now for 'warm white' LEDs.

James,

Would you tell me which brand of LED you are using? I do get the occasional query about them, but have yet to have a manufacturer show me a bulb that doesn't look hideous. If I can get a warm temperature out of a replaceable MR-16 unit, I would be thrilled to try them. I use alot of bi-pin Xenon lamps, because of the warm soft light they give me.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-14-2007, 12:50 AM
James,

Would you tell me which brand of LED you are using?

Sorry My Friend..... The supply chain on the LED Lamps I am using is not quite sewn up tight for me just yet. I want to ensure that I have a rock solid supply flowing to my company before I go and let the cat out of the bag and have the manufacturer overwhelmed. (they are from offshore... and as such the supply chain is ever changing at this point)

As soon as I have secured a direct link to the manufacturer I will fill everyone in on the info.

Thanks.

Chris J
09-14-2007, 12:58 AM
Knew that was coming......

sprinkler guy
09-14-2007, 12:58 AM
Sorry My Friend..... The supply chain on the LED Lamps I am using is not quite sewn up tight for me just yet. I want to ensure that I have a rock solid supply flowing to my company before I go and let the cat out of the bag and have the manufacturer overwhelmed. (they are from offshore... and as such the supply chain is ever changing at this point)

As soon as I have secured a direct link to the manufacturer I will fill everyone in on the info.

Thanks.

Any idea when that might be?

Chris J
09-14-2007, 01:01 AM
when hell gets really cold.

Lite4
09-14-2007, 01:02 AM
Speaking of LEDs, I am starting a job next week and the homeowner wants me to tear out all the LEDs out of his landscape he had his landscaper install for him. Says he thought they were the next best thing but he hates them..HMMM, wants to do it correctly this time around. Sorry boys LED technology just aint there yet.

Chris J
09-14-2007, 01:14 AM
Whoa! Wait just a minute. If a landscape guy installed it, do we really want to blame the LED? Come on now, I don't want to disrespect landscapers, but they are "landscapers" not lighting professionals.
Remember, Malibu is how the low voltage industry got a bad name in the first place. People putting stuff in that didn't know what they were doing!

sprinkler guy
09-14-2007, 01:19 AM
Whoa! Wait just a minute. If a landscape guy installed it, do we really want to blame the LED? Come on now, I don't want to disrespect landscapers, but they are "landscapers" not lighting professionals.

Chris,

Are there many lighting companies in your area? Here, the stand alone lighting company is a rare thing. The handful of guys I know personnly are the offshoot of a landscape company (myself included), with a lot of landscape companies actually doing impressive lighting.

Lite4
09-14-2007, 01:27 AM
Chris these are 120 volt LEDs, so voltage drop is not an issue. Color is wrong and lumen output is almost nonexistant. I don't think I can blame the scaper, but rather the light.

Chris J
09-14-2007, 01:33 AM
Sean,
I respect what you are saying, but around here there is a bunch of competition and more coming in every day. I would say that there is at least 40 "lighting only" companies in my area, and another 100 companies (landscape architects, landscape designers, builders, contractors, etc...) that are trying to incorporate lighting into their offering. Jax is a big place (the largest land mass city in the US) and the competition is massive. You have to be GOOD to be respected.
Having said that, I'll say this: any lighting plan looks good. Even one light looks pretty until you compare it to multiple lights in a proper setting. Although I'm not trying to degrade you in any way, you would have to prove to me that the landscape guys where you live are doing lighting designs as impressive as some of the lighting designers around here that do it for a living. I'm sure some of them turn out well, but it's the difficult jobs that I'm talking about. The one's where the home does not lend itself to illumination.
Love ya though!

Chris J
09-14-2007, 01:36 AM
Chris these are 120 volt LEDs, so voltage drop is not an issue. Color is wrong and lumen output is almost nonexistant. I don't think I can blame the scaper, but rather the light.

What is a landscaper doing installing 120v lighting? Don't they need license up there?

Lite4
09-14-2007, 01:39 AM
Chris, See the fountain in the picture it is powered by LEDs that are coming out. I have to light this house next week, As if it doesn't have enough already.

Chris J
09-14-2007, 02:03 AM
Wow Tim,
I'd say that's a challenge to say the least! What do you plan to do to this house to "light it" that hasn't been done already? I hope they are going to let you rip out the current system and start over? You actually don't need to rip anything out, you just need to change the lamp options for the soffits and incorporate some uplighting on a few of the dark areas.
That fountain does need help. What are you current plans?

Lite4
09-14-2007, 02:11 AM
Well, this is the house I was talking about in the 120 to 12 volt conversion on the can lights. He only uses the cans when he has company coming over because they cost so much to operate. I talked to him about putting them on a dimmer which will help. However, I think I will propose a secondary 12 volt system for base lighting and some in the second story so he can have his house nicely lit without the wal-mart sign on. The LEDs in the fountain are going bye bye, will be replaced with 8- 10watt mr-11s with a spread lens in the water tanks, to uplight the sheets. I will then for sure put 4 path/spread lights on the ground in the corner of the fountain for lighting the annuals in the bed below. There aren't any trees on the property to speak of because he has a 360 degree view of the valley and city below. So probably mostly low level spread lights and secondary architectural will be the flavor of the day on this one.

pete scalia
09-14-2007, 02:17 AM
I have tested many different LED Lamp Modules leading up to my decision to go with the units I use now. I have focused solely on finding a MR16 based LED lamp module as I use thousands of MR16 a year here.

So far of all the units I have tested, none have had any problems with being mounted in top quality outdoor lighting fixtures. Clearly if the fixtures you were installing them into leaked or flooded you would have an issue.

The units I am using are rated to function from -35c to +50c and will tolerate high humidity levels. They are rated to have an continuous operating temperature of 85c and included an aluminium heat sink to disapate the heat created by the drivers. (heat is an LED biggest enemy).

So far I have installed about 300 - 350 of these lamp modules and have had no call backs or complaints. I did get one batch with some failures out of the box but the units have a 1 yr warranty and have been replaced with no arguments. The initial test units I got last fall are still burning outside my home 24/7 with no noticible change in output or colour.

Have a great day.

300-350 in the field is hardly a test of the durability and you didn't say how long they've been installed and how many hrs they operate etc. As for the samples still burning 24/7 that you got last fall that also is not much of a challenge since it's the off and on cycling that wears a lamp. Put a LV incandescant with a very low lamp life rating on 24/7 and I bet you'll extend it's hours/life significantly. As for not divulging the manufacturer so you can selfishly glom for yourself. If you won't share your toys then why bring them into the sandbox at all ?

Lite4
09-14-2007, 02:26 AM
I wonder if UFOs use LEDs. Pete, you might have an easier time finding out where they buy theirs from. Those babies are LIGHT YEARS ahead in lumen output, (no pun intended of course)

pete scalia
09-14-2007, 02:28 AM
I think you're right tim. This guy wants to hide the source of his products so he can resell them to saps like us and retire early.

sprinkler guy
09-14-2007, 02:30 AM
Sean,
I respect what you are saying, but around here there is a bunch of competition and more coming in every day. I would say that there is at least 40 "lighting only" companies in my area, and another 100 companies (landscape architects, landscape designers, builders, contractors, etc...) that are trying to incorporate lighting into their offering. Jax is a big place (the largest land mass city in the US) and the competition is massive. You have to be GOOD to be respected.
Having said that, I'll say this: any lighting plan looks good. Even one light looks pretty until you compare it to multiple lights in a proper setting. Although I'm not trying to degrade you in any way, you would have to prove to me that the landscape guys where you live are doing lighting designs as impressive as some of the lighting designers around here that do it for a living. I'm sure some of them turn out well, but it's the difficult jobs that I'm talking about. The one's where the home does not lend itself to illumination.
Love ya though!


Chris,

So many of the landscape companies around here have become just a step shy of general contractors. Masonry, sprinklers, planting, construction of patio covers...about anything you can think of. Some of the professionals around here are good at incorporating lighting into projects because they understand all of the logistical challenges involved in the job. I will also hardily agree there are tons of guys putting in terrible lighting, but billing themselves as "expert" lighting companies. They help keep me busy with service and tune-ups, so it's hard to completely curse them.

By the way, isn't it like 1:00 a.m. where you're at?

Lite4
09-14-2007, 02:33 AM
Or they don't exist. Honestly, if a manufacturer had the secret to matching LED output to halogen and wouldn't do his darndest to scream it from the rooftops that he had found the holy grail of efficient lighting. He either knows nothing about his industry niche or is incredibly stupid to limit his offering to one buyer when he could have millions worldwide. you tell me.

pete scalia
09-14-2007, 02:34 AM
Or they don't exist. Honestly, if a manufacturer had the secret to matching LED output to halogen and wouldn't do his darndest to scream it from the rooftops that he had found the holy grail of efficient lighting. He either knows nothing about his industry niche or is incredibly stupid to limit his offering to one buyer when he could have millions worldwide. you tell me.

I think you have a point there Tim.

Chris J
09-14-2007, 02:43 AM
Yep, It's now 1:40 AM. That's another challenge of the true lighting pro: late hours. This stuff does happen at night ya know?
I understand what you are saying about the general contractor types, and they will make tons of money because they have the avenue of the client base. But they are all just "the jack of all trades". None of them will ever be as good as the best in the business.
2 cents.

Lite4
09-14-2007, 02:47 AM
Yep, It's now 1:40 AM. That's another challenge of the true lighting pro: late hours. This stuff does happen at night ya know?
I understand what you are saying about the general contractor types, and they will make tons of money because they have the avenue of the client base. But they are all just "the jack of all trades". None of them will ever be as good as the best in the business.
2 cents.

That's a huge roger to that. Hey it's only 11:47 here. The night is still young my friends.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-14-2007, 09:23 PM
300-350 in the field is hardly a test of the durability It is certainly more experience and exposure then you have Sir.and you didn't say how long they've been installed and how many hrs they operate etc.I started installing them this spring and have continued with them all season. They operate as most outdoor lighting systems do, from dusk to around 1am each night As for the samples still burning 24/7 that you got last fall that also is not much of a challenge since it's the off and on cycling that wears a lamp.Oh really? Is it really the on and off cycling that "wears out" a solid state LED lamp? I suggest you do more research Put a LV incandescant with a very low lamp life rating on 24/7 and I bet you'll extend it's hours/life significantly. There is no comparison between an incandescent lamp and and LED lamp moduleAs for not divulging the manufacturer so you can selfishly glom for yourself. If you won't share your toys then why bring them into the sandbox at all ?Selfish? Certainly not. I call it being a prudent business person who is engaged in the process of vertical integration.

Why would I risk my supply of these units to a market as potentially large as the USA? It isnt exactly a State Secret where these lamps come from. If you really want to know, then do your own research. Travel to Lightfair as I did, spend hours and hours sourcing and purchasing test units as I did, spend even more hours bench testing them as I did. Just don't spew sour grapes when someone chooses to guard their investment of time and energy into a new technology.

As I stated previously, Once I have a direct and secure supply chain on these I will happily let the rest of you in on them. I was hoping this would be done by now, but am thinking a trip overseas is now in order. Stay Tuned.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-14-2007, 09:40 PM
"Sorry boys LED technology just aint there yet."

I beg to differ... and as the advances keep coming (Cree just announced 1000 L/M from a single warm white LED at 400ma) you will see more and more market leaders adopting this technology.

I would suggest you do a quick study of the Architectural Lighting Design industry.... you know the top lighting designers who do the Museums, Monuments, Billion Dollar Casinos, Civic Centers, etc.... The guys with Degrees in lighting design.. See what they think of LED technology.

Obviously the cost of installing specification grade fixtures in most residential markets is prohibitively expensive, but that does not mean that the technology is unavailable or does not deliver.

Most trains only have one or two engines pulling the rest of the cars along.... Personally, I prefer the view from the front.

Have a great day.

David Gretzmier
09-15-2007, 01:34 AM
I will add this- those of you who knock LED's REALLY at least owe it to yourself and your customers to look at the latest LED's out there. Most of your are basing your opinions on older style LED's. The ones that have come out just this year, the cree's, rebels, have twice the lumens at the same voltage and curent. The warm white ones truly begin to mimic natural light.

how fast is this technology evolving? The flashlight in my pocket is a fenix p1d-ce, a cree based led flashlight. it was state of the art 4 months ago with 135 lumens. the new flashlight released about 3 weeks ago, p2d-rebel 100, is at 175 lumens. for a single LED driven by a single 3 volt battery. my guess is the mr-16 LED that will closely mimic 20 watt and 35 watt are less than a year away. The ones available now are pretty dang close right now.


and on james being quiet about his suppliers...

I have invented an item to be used in Christmas lights that will easily double the production of c-9 installation crews across the country. It will be availably for Christmas of 2008 in limited use and 2009 in mass production. Do you really think I would reveal my suppliers, fabricator, assembler, plastic injection mold maker, shipper? If you invested hundreds of hours of your time for your invention, you'd keep quiet too.

pete scalia
09-15-2007, 02:00 AM
"If you invested hundreds of hours of your time for your invention, you'd keep quiet too."

What invention? He invented those LED's? I've seen alot of latest and greatest come and go without taking hold in outdoor lighting- fiber optics, voltage regulator, xenon lamps, miniature bi-pins (questionable lamp life). Call me old fashioned but I'll wait till this new latest greatest proves itself over time before I go experimenting with it on my jobs.

David Gretzmier
09-15-2007, 03:22 AM
pete- If you want to have your opinion respected here, I'd respect others. name calling has no place here.

I agree all things should be tested. halogen was a new tecnology at one point. mr-16's have replaced pars as the go-to lighting source, and they were new not too long ago. multi tap trans were new at some point as well. try to keep in mind that some new things work and some don't.

As far as inventing, he may not have invented the led, but I have yet to see an led mr-16 bulb in a water tight bullet that closely mimics halogen or natural light. some are close. If james can come up with it, and it works long term, then like it or not, it may be in your future. If it does not work, then you have nothing to worry about.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-15-2007, 01:01 PM
"If you invested hundreds of hours of your time for your invention, you'd keep quiet too."

What invention? He invented those LED's? I've seen alot of latest and greatest come and go without taking hold in outdoor lighting- fiber optics, voltage regulator, xenon lamps, miniature bi-pins (questionable lamp life). Call me old fashioned but I'll wait till this new latest greatest proves itself over time before I go experimenting with it on my jobs.

[COLOR="Blue"]Pete, I seriously don't understand where your apparent hostility to my use and promotion of LED lamp technology comes from.

The technology exists, it works, and it is available to the entire lighting industry. You just have to understand exactly what you want the technology to do, then go out and find all of the manufacturers, then build a specification, then source a manufacturer/assembly operation, and have it made for you. Only takes lots and lots of time, energy, and personal resources. Give all that away? No thanks... why should I?

As for the "latest and greatest" going without taking hold... you include xenon lamps and miniature bi-pins? Really? You think these are fads? Seems to me that both xenon and miniature bi-pins are well established and widely adopted technologies in the outdoor lighting industry. Even better are the xenon miniature bi-pins. I cannot remember the last time I replaced one of these that had actually burned out from old age.

Have a great day.COLOR]

pete scalia
09-15-2007, 09:46 PM
actually it's no skin off my teeth. I was just trying to get some excitement going. The LED's look promising we'll see if they prove over time.

Lite4
09-17-2007, 12:00 AM
Hey guys I don't have a dispute that LEDs are the future of lighting. I have just not seen the results I have been looking for from them yet. This could be due to my suppliers who don't put a lot of stock in them, nor push them in their stores. It is only a matter of time. Once the cost is comparable to standard halogen fixtures you will probably see a lot of people jumping ship because of the flexibility of installations. James, to be perfectly fair to you and Dave, I must admit I have not given them a hard look for well over a year. If the technology has really changed that much, then I will spend some more time researching these units. Possibly digging into some deeper sources. Please don't take my jabs personally about the LEDs, you should know I hold you guys in the highest regard. Sometimes it's good to stir the pot so to speak to stir up a more indepth discussion on these subjects.

David Gretzmier
09-17-2007, 02:07 AM
I think you always need to be looking ahead. I know it isn't fair to homeowners to experiment on thier property with a product that is unproven, but at the same time, how does a product get proven outside the lab? by using it. all products were new at some point, so I know most folks take a wait and see aproach. I tend to try a few things here and there and on my own house. If they work, I expand.

history shows that one of two things happen to folks who try new things first in business. when it works, the folks who tried that enjoy a competitive advantage and make more money until everyone else jumps in and prices normalize. when it doesn't work, the person that tried that gets burned financially and has to fix alot of stuff, and thier reputation gets hurt as well.

I was one of the first people in town to: run big walk behind mowers, ztr mowers, hydro-seeding, build engineered stone retaining walls, super lawn trucks, laser levels for patios and retaining walls, and the first truly professional Christmas light business in my area. and I enjoyed the benefits of making more money while my competition used last year or last decades technology.

I've also had some things that did not work out, like sub-surface root-zone irrigation, drip irrigation, water features, and others. some folks make these things and others work great, but not for me.

In the end I want to be known for an innovator, and those folks try new things and yes, they sometimes fail.

I am thinking the high power warm white LED's will make install times go much quicker, maybe 20-40%, by virture of constant light at a large voltage range, longer runs, and more lights off a smaller trans, and lighter guage wire because of less load. The bulbs cost more, but Homeowners will sometimes pay more initially for the electric and bulb replacement savings down the road. we'll see. James seems to have no trouble getting folks to pay a premium up in Canada.

Cree Led's has just released a successful independant test of 1000 lumens at 1 watt on an LED they plan to release in 16-20 months. Cree has always to this point released what they test outside thier lab. The Future is coming fast.