Lesco Quality Blue Blend KBG Seeds

[mlong30]

Hi All,

I'm here in Indianapolis, In, and I just thatched my yard yesterday evening before it starting raining. Its suppose to rain again tomorrow, so I'm planning on renting an aerator either wednesday evening or thursday evening while my lawn is moist.

I purchased the following 50lbs bag of 100% KBG from Lesco today called "Quality Blue Blend KBG Seeds" for $152.00! I'm using Lesco for the first time this year so each step is new for me.

Item: 001715
%PURITY COMPONENT
49.22 Lakeshore KBG
24.80 Glenmont KBG
24.76 Excursion KBG

1. Does anyone knows what this seeds will look like? I just wanted KBG only, but I didn't think to ask what it would look like. I just assumed its lesco so it must be good.

2. After I aerate, would it be best to use Lesco starter fertilizer (18-24-12) or have a load of compost delivered to my house, and spread over the seeds? My front yard is suppose to be sod, but after thatching it looks like dirt. My back yard is clay.

3. Which direction should I aerate? North, South, and Diagonal or just North and South?


I currently have no weeds for the first time in 10years! I want to keep it that way from now on.

Thanks.

Matt

[carcrz]

You can do compost, but I'd put it down before the seed & stir the seed in after.
Fertilize once the seed has germinated & is a couple inches.
Aeration direction doesn't matter since holes are holes.
Verticut / dethatch in a diamond pattern.

[Drew Gemma]

core aerrate spreed seed at desired rate throw wheel track to wheel track so you don't streak your lawn starter fert and water are your friends.

[mlong30]

You can do compost, but I'd put it down before the seed & stir the seed in after.


What ingredients should be in the compost? I really don't want to try to spread it out by hand, so is there a machine I can rent, that will do this for me?

Thanks.

Matt

[Marcos]

Well, To answer your questions:

1) You just 'thatched' your yard, so you're used to the trudgery and angst that is associated with being the owner of a bluegrass yard in the Transition Zone. You may very well also have a long history of grubworm, sod webworm, and various fungus problems that have required treatments if you've been a bluegrass person. I pray to my higher power that you have a good irrigation system, keep your blades real sharp, and you know how to raise and lower your blades according to the heat and cool weather. So I'm guessing you're glutten for punishment AGAIN, and WANT the fine texture of bluegrass vs. the thicker texture yet MUCH more durable and suitable-for-our-climate turf type tall fescues? :dancing: OK, fine. You've probably put it down by now anyway! It rained. :cry: KBG of course is very thin bladed, and bluegrass is rhizomous, which means that it's roots surface and make new plants readily, but also makes 'thatch' readily too. Having 3 types in a blend like this should be fine.

I'd like to see a picture or two of your existing yard, though. I wonder how much of it really IS bluegrass? Maybe you could post one?

2)Trying to 'mix' compost into clay soil with an aerater is like trying to stir water into oil. There is a HUGE difference in density. Unless you REALLY renovate the given area with a serious piece of equipment (like a rockhound or a GOOD slice seeder) you'll have the compost 'slide' away in the rain :cry: , and likely the seed with it.
3)Which direction to aerate? EVERY direction!!!:) (no kidding) You CANNOT 'over-aerate' your yard, unless, of course,you over-exert yourself!
Watch out for the sprinkler heads and invisable fences!

[Marcos]

OH, yeah. One more word on your soil. Just because you have 'clayish' soil, don't assume that you necessarily have 'poor' soil. Ideal soil is made up of 1/3 clay, 1/3 silt and 1/3 sand, but even THAT could be deficient in growing plants IF key nutrients are missing in the soil. Actually, many clay soils are very rich in nutrients (like here too in Cincy), but the nutrients are 'locked up' because the clay particles are 'packed' together so tightly. In my opinion, don't sweat using any compost. Concentrate on making a good seeding 'base' with what you've got. And don't waste any more time! In reality, most seed contractors have wrapped up their work because if the seed doesn't come up and is 'mowable' before the ground cools and the turf goes dormant, your work could be at risk.

[mlong30]

I'd like to see a picture or two of your existing yard, though. I wonder how much of it really IS bluegrass? Maybe you could post one?

This is the condition of my current yard as of July-29-2007.
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/july292007/deadgrass1.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/july292007/deadgrass2.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/july292007/deadgrass3.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/july292007/deadgrass5.jpg

These were taken after I cored the soil, added Lime, Fertilizer, and seed on Saturday 9-28-2007.
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/sept302007/core_backyard.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/sept302007/core_backyard2.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/sept302007/core_closeup.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/sept302007/core_sod_front.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/sept302007/core_sod_front2.jpg

Matt

[Fenway]

I see that kind of problem all over the place here in my neighborhood on the North Side of Indy. I went with 50lbs of Lesco Tri-Gold Turf Type Tall Fescue and I don't think it was over $100. That seed you are using must be more expensive. Good Luck

[mlong30]

I went with 50lbs of Lesco Tri-Gold Turf Type Tall Fescue and I don't think it was over $100. That seed you are using must be more expensive. Good Luck

This is the first time I spent this kind of money on seeds.

http://www.lesco.com/?PageCode=PROD_DETAIL&ItemNumber=001715

But lesco locally sold it to me cheaper, than what I see online. I killed most of my Tall Fescue with Corsair from lesco, because it just didn't look good to me. My back yard had huge circles of tall fescue, then KBG. It just looked like weeds to me, with a different shade of color. But I had different seeds from different stores that I purchased over the years from Lowes, and Home depot.

Do you know of a place locally that sells good compost with no weeds?

Thanks.

Matt

[mlong30]

Ideal soil is made up of 1/3 clay, 1/3 silt and 1/3 sand, but even THAT could be deficient in growing plants IF key nutrients are missing in the soil.

I ran a Ph test on my soil over the weekend, and it came back as 5.5:mad:

After talking with my Lesco rep on Saturday, he suggested not to put down that much lime at one time, so he suggested that I put down 150lbs of lime this fall, then twice next year and continue, until my PH is normal. He sold it to me for $6.89 a bag.

http://www.lesco.com/?PageCode=PROD_DETAIL&ItemNumber=008979

Matt

[Marcos]

I see that kind of problem all over the place here in my neighborhood on the North Side of Indy. I went with 50lbs of Lesco Tri-Gold Turf Type Tall Fescue and I don't think it was over $100. That seed you are using must be more expensive. Good Luck

You CAN'T look at seed bags 'apples to apples'!
Look at what's inside them!
Keep in mind, Fenway, how much smaller bluegrass seed is in comparison to fescue, and how much farther it will go: A 50# bag of bluegrass, for overseeding purposes, should cover no less than about 1/2 acre (50# bag / 2 # / 1000 sq ft = 25,000 sq ft )
The same cooresponding rate of fescue, at a generous overseeding rate of 5 lb. /1000, would only net [B]10,000 sq. ft[/B ]!

But, as I stated before, you often pay the REAL price much LATER when you dabble in bluegrass this far south ......

[Marcos]

This is the condition of my current yard as of July-29-2007.
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/july292007/deadgrass3.jpg

Matt

Matt,

First of all, GREAT job aerating! (I hope you're O.K. physically!) My wife gets so mad at me when I do that to our own yard 'cause the kids track in all the cores & grass, but I do exactly what you did twice a year, spring and fall, when the soil is moist enough to core aerate. It's like 'repotting a plant' a million times a over the yard, even BEFORE you factor in adding any seed!

But getting to your pics: There's no question at all that you have a bluegrass lawn. The third picture from July (the one I left), the one 'distance' shot you took, leaves evidence to this 25 year turf veteran that your bluegrass had probably had a great deal of dollar spot last spring and early summer, and it had worsened and had become aggravated with the drought conditions. The grass in that picture is not being affected by active disease by that time; the hose had already been let out, but you can tell in that picture by those 'oasis' of healthy turf surrounded by the 'melting' of diseased and dead turf. So.......................now that the works done........ Do you have an irrigation system? And if you don't have one with a bluegrass lawn in the Transistion Zone, why not? And what are your watering and mowing habits, and are you doing them correctly (for bluegrass)? What do you know about cool season turfgrass disease ID and control?...About grubworm prevention and sod webworm ID and control? ......In my opinion, These are tha main questions you're going to need to have answers to in order to prevent a repeat of your recent adventure! :waving:

[mlong30]

Matt,

First of all, GREAT job aerating! (I hope you're O.K. physically!)

This was the first time in years, when I came into the house round 8:30pm I didn't go into my office and get on my computer. I was stretched out on my family room couch, relaxing my body, because I just didn't want to move.

But it was a relief when I was done, because I knew the worst was over.

Next time it will be easier, now that I know how to use the equipment.

I had to rent a 14' foot Uhaul because I don't have a truck, and it was at the last minute because of the rain, so I didn't have time to find someone with a truck or hitch.

Matt

[mlong30]

Do you have an irrigation system?

No I don’t unfortunately. I didn’t think I needed one, because my mother lives in an old neighborhood where her house was built back in the 1900. We never put anything down on her yard, and it always comes back. It doesn’t matter how hot it gets, her yard comes back. Now she does have weeds, but her yard always comes back. So when I moved to the suburbs, I assumed my yard would just be the same but I would try to get rid of the weeds. I was wrong big time! She has the good soil, where mine was taken away, leaving me with clay.

And if you don't have one with a bluegrass lawn in the Transistion Zone, why not?

Again, I didn’t think I needed one. No one else in my neighborhood has one, except for this one near the entrance of my subdivision. His yard is perfect threw out the summer! I happen to leave work early one morning, and that’s when I noticed the sprinkler system in his yard.

And what are your watering and mowing habits

As far as my watering habits, I was just using Mother Nature!

My mowing habits, where just terrible! I just found out that the lack of mower maintenance helped contribute to my lawn problems. I NEVER sharpened my blade. I used this mower for 10years and NEVER sharpened my blade or any maintenance except change the oil and gas. Again, I just didn’t now until now. I just recently took my craftsman mower into the shop, and they told me it’s not worth fixing, because I only have 40% compression. So, I rented a commercial mower, a while back, and I couldn’t believe how quickly it started, no primer, and how good my yard looked after I cut with the commercial mower. I even cut my parents lawn, and they called me yelling, WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY YARD, YOU NEVER CUT IT THIS GOOD BEFORE! So I’m planning on getting a new mower in the next couple of months. A commercial 21’ Toro or ExMark. I also don’t know what height I should use, and when. My neighbors beside me cut their yard around an inch in height all season long. When my neighbor first got his riding mower. He put the blade all the way down to the soil, and just destroyed all my grass on the side!


and are you doing them correctly (for bluegrass)?

I didn’t know there were instructions for watering bluegrass.


What do you know about cool season turfgrass disease ID and control?

Just the Scotts basic program in the past. I’m now using Lesco this year, so at least I have a direct contact on addressing my yard now.

About grubworm prevention and sod webworm ID and control?

I would put down Scotts GrubX once a year including this year as well. I had a bag left over from last year, so I’ve used it for the last time.

Matt

[Marcos]

Next time it will be easier, now that I know how to use the equipment.

Don't feel too bad. The first time I ever used a manual one was at my first house, and we had a sloped back yard with a chain link fence at the bottom of the hill. And well.....I think you can visualize....:cry: :cry: :cry:

[Fenway]

Ya the tall fescue in a KBG lawn looks horrible. But I love the way an all TTTF lawn looks. Sorry I have no idea about the compost.

This is the first time I spent this kind of money on seeds.

http://www.lesco.com/?PageCode=PROD_DETAIL&ItemNumber=001715

But lesco locally sold it to me cheaper, than what I see online. I killed most of my Tall Fescue with Corsair from lesco, because it just didn't look good to me. My back yard had huge circles of tall fescue, then KBG. It just looked like weeds to me, with a different shade of color. But I had different seeds from different stores that I purchased over the years from Lowes, and Home depot.

Do you know of a place locally that sells good compost with no weeds?

Thanks.

Matt

[mlong30]

What are good watering habits for KBG?

Matt

[mlong30]

Next time it will be easier, now that I know how to use the equipment.

Don't feel too bad. The first time I ever used a manual one was at my first house, and we had a sloped back yard with a chain link fence at the bottom of the hill. And well.....I think you can visualize....:cry: :cry: :cry:

I just noticed in my flower bed where I have some fungus. A small batch of seeds fell into it, and now they are 2 inches in height! I just put these seeds down 5 days ago. Whats the deal?

Matt

[outlaw1960]

What are good watering habits for KBG?


A good rule of thumb is 1 1/2" per week, then adjust for temps. Cut at 3" minimum, sharp blades are a must! hth

[TexRob]

I see that kind of problem all over the place here in my neighborhood on the North Side of Indy. I went with 50lbs of Lesco Tri-Gold Turf Type Tall Fescue and I don't think it was over $100. That seed you are using must be more expensive. Good Luck

50 lbs of KBG seed would yield as much grass as 150 lbs of TF, hence the price difference.

[turfsolutions]

You got ripped on both the seed cost and lime cost. Sorry, but you paid double what most pros get it for. As for KBG, realize that it will take 21 days to germinate so be prepared to water your lawn a heck of a lot for the next month plus unless you are steady getting rain and heavy morning dews.

Personally, I would go with Turf Type Tall Fescue. It looks great, and will resist heat, drought, and traffic much better than KGB. If you want perfections though, and have the time and money to put into the watering, fungicides, insectides, twice a week mowing, aerations, topdressing, fertilization, then go ahead with KGB and enjoy the results. Don't get me wrong, TTTF needs maintenance as well, just not as much as KGB.

Post the after PICS.

[mlong30]

You got ripped on both the seed cost and lime cost. Sorry, but you paid double what most pros get it for.

Thats fine it doesn't matter to me at this point. I'm not in the business so I'm not purchasing bulks of it. Besides, it was still cheaper for me to pay in person at lesco, than the price I saw on lecos website. I'm sure the prices are different in each region as well, because I'm sure certain grass seeds are not in demand as others in certain regions.

As for KBG, realize that it will take 21 days to germinate so be prepared to water your lawn a heck of a lot for the next month plus unless you are steady getting rain

About 30% of my seeds have germinated after 10 days, and I only water in the morning from 2:00am - 4:00am.

Matt

[mlong30]

Matt,

First of all, GREAT job aerating! (I hope you're O.K. physically!) My wife gets so mad at me when I do that to our own yard 'cause the kids track in all the cores & grass, but I do exactly what you did twice a year, spring and fall, when the soil is moist enough to core aerate. It's like 'repotting a plant' a million times a over the yard, even BEFORE you factor in adding any seed!

But getting to your pics: There's no question at all that you have a bluegrass lawn. The third picture from July (the one I left), the one 'distance' shot you took, leaves evidence to this 25 year turf veteran that your bluegrass had probably had a great deal of dollar spot last spring and early summer, and it had worsened and had become aggravated with the drought conditions. The grass in that picture is not being affected by active disease by that time; the hose had already been let out, but you can tell in that picture by those 'oasis' of healthy turf surrounded by the 'melting' of diseased and dead turf. So.......................now that the works done........ Do you have an irrigation system? And if you don't have one with a bluegrass lawn in the Transistion Zone, why not? And what are your watering and mowing habits, and are you doing them correctly (for bluegrass)? What do you know about cool season turfgrass disease ID and control?...About grubworm prevention and sod webworm ID and control? ......In my opinion, These are tha main questions you're going to need to have answers to in order to prevent a repeat of your recent adventure! :waving:

Hi Marcos,

I'm back!

My yard still looks a mess, but a little better.

The Good
1. I have no weeds!

The Bad
1. The grass seeds I planted last fall, didn't come it, except in the area where I put down scotts soil. See Photo Rear3.jpg
2. In the areas where I put down the scotts soil, the soil looks like it didn't blend with the clay, and is now sitting on top of the clay, where I can peel back with a rake.
3. Yard looks like a swamp!

http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/frontyard.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/frontyard2.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/frontyard3.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/rear1.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/rear2.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/rear3.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/rear4.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/sideleft.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/sideleft2.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/sideleft3.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/sideleft4.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/siderear.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/siderear2.jpg


I'm not sure where to go from here. I haven't done anything to the yard yet. I was planning on ordering some good soil from http://www.tiffanylawnandgarden.com/product_categories.php the Peat Humus, or Black Organic Topsoil.

Any Suggestions?

Thanks.

Matt

[Marcos]

Hi Matt!
You said on the initial blog that you bought the seed on 9/25/07.
How much later after that did you wait until it was finally put down?

The end of Sep, 1st of Oct. is cutting it VERY close to get seed up and growing before frost / freezes begin.
In my work in S. Ohio I always stop doing seed work (with t.t.t. fescues) around Sep. 15, and then resume the "dormant seeding" right after Thanksgiving.
(Dormant seeding is where you seed very late, after any remote chance of germination in the fall has lapsed, in an effort to have it germinate in the early spring.)


"Layering" of 'good' soil over top of 'bad' soil is never a good thing...no matter how "good" the 'good' soil is....

From 9/27/07
Well, To answer your questions:

2)Trying to 'mix' compost into clay soil with an aerater is like trying to stir water into oil. There is a HUGE difference in density. Unless you REALLY renovate the given area with a serious piece of equipment (like a rockhound or a GOOD slice seeder) you'll have the compost 'slide' away in the rain :cry: , and likely the seed with it.



Those pics don't look too good.
Your lawn appears to me like it's really prone to sheet wash, despite not having too much of a slope.
You must have some nasty clay under there...thus the "swamp" situation you described.

Maybe we can discuss doing something fairly dramatic with course sand to help remedy this problem, if you're (and others on this thread) are in agreement.

But here's something to think about before you go out and blow a wad on "Sensemilian Black topsoil :laugh:" or whatever...
Many people seem to equate "clay" soils as being "nutrient poor" soils.
This simply isn't necessarily true.
Clays can be very nutrient-rich, as a matter of fact.

What clayey soils almost always do lack, however, is porosity.

You spreading compost or peat moss on top of your clay is like sticking a piece of bread on top of melted lard, and expecting it to magically "blend together".
It just won't work.

Now...I'm not saying you can't use compost too...I'm just suggesting that your next Don Quixote style "attack at the windmill" :cool2: this spring might also include some soil modifications like course sand.

And, yes, this can be accomplished w/o completely destroying everything you DO have established...by AGAIN, more REALLY DEEP, and THOROUGH aeration, then spreading and raking in course sand at a fairly heavy rate (150 # dry course sand / 1000 sq ft is not unreasonable), then you could have someone from a nursery or wherever deliver to you a load of bulk compost off the edge of your driveway, that would (hopefully) be consisting of horse manure (the natural decomposition process in a certified composting facility will naturally "heat" the manure more than enough to kill any weeds) as well as some decayed leaf content.....and you'll find this to be MUCH cheaper than 'exotic' bagged stuff, and it works just as well if not better.

Then the work begins !
:cry:

While you're spreading the bulk compost over top of the yard, you'll be covering the course sand and bucco clayey cores that you got from the :cry: multiple passes:cry: from the aerator.
Take the time to rake them together and mix them up as you go.

Then...you'll have a seed base that (hopefully) won't slide out from under you !

[mlong30]

Hi Matt!
You said on the initial blog that you bought the seed on 9/25/07.
How much later after that did you wait until it was finally put down?

I would say Sept 1, which was the following weekend. If I remember correctly I believe it did get cold earlier than normal.

I took the photos to my Lesco Dealer yesterday, and Lesco was surprise of the condition of the lawn. After me giving him a history of what I did, and didn't do to my yard, Lesco thinks my yard suffered from drought from past season, which I can agree, because I didn't do anything to my yard until last year. Lesco also believes that my seeds didn't germinate, because it was too late in the season.

Lesco also suggested that I use Turf Type Fescues, but I'm not sure what a *GOOD* turf type fescues lawn looks like, and does it look good mixed with KBG? I don't have a problem with TTF in the front or side, because there is no grass there anyway from what I can tell, but my back yard has about 85% of good KBG. So at the moment I'm not sure what seed I'm going to use. Any suggestions?


Lesco suggested that I do following....


1. Go ahead and order the Soil Test that I requested. But I need to get seeds down as quick as possible.
2. They want me to use a Seed Slitter this time when planting my seeds for good contact into the clay.
3. Cleanup all the dead grass, and loosen the soil. I've completed one side of the house, and it looks really good, even though I have no grass.
4. The sides of my yard aren't getting enough sun light, so Lesco suggested that I use a shaded seed instead of sunny for the sides.
5. Once the Soil test comes back then we can go from there, and aerator my yard in the fall.

Good news is, I'm still weed free!

Matt

[NewtoUSALawns]

I and my neighbor also overseeded using Lesco Seed/slice seeder/Starter Fertilizer. However I believe we did this in the 2nd week of October (too late, we had seed sitting for a month in our garage).

It is hard to see if any of the overseeding worked for us. The slice seeder was rough on many spots (since I have sloping sides and back). Now those areas are bald. Also, it was 2 days work to pickup all the dethach after slice seeding.

Well..to me it was an experiment worth $200 that didn't produce any results.

I do have the greenest yard (in subdivision) so far (as I applied Pre-Emergent in middle of March. Lesco gave me high Nitrogen Pre Emergent. I think I will apply one more course of Pre/Post Emergent with low N.....late this April).

On the other hand. Another house down the road had fairly good size damaged area from moles. They ripped the sod/grass and reseeded at end of September last year.

I do not know what they used....It was black in color....spread like soil.

But that area is full of new fresh grass 100%. Looks great.

Any idea what that could be? Perhaps I can use the same to cover the bald spots. I have seed left over, can I seed them at bald spots this time around?

I see that new homes/businesses get seeded almost anytime (April-September) What do they use (other than sod) to plant grass during Spring.

Thanks

(not hijacking thread, just sharing my experience and learning)

[mlong30]

Just some quick shots I took today after cleanup on the side of the house, and on the curve. I also noticed the roots coming from a tree on the curve to the surface, as well as underneath the sidewalk into my yard! The front yard pic, just shows how easy it is to peel back the grass with a rack with ease.

http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/april2/FrontCurve.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/april2/FrontTreeRoots.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/april2/FrontYard.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/april2/RearYard.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/april2/RearYard2.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/april2/RightSideCleanup.jpg
http://www.tinkertimes.com/badyard/april2/RightSideCleanup2.jpg

Could I use Turf-Type Tall Fescue for my frontyard and side, and maybe blend in the back with the KBG?
Can someone show me some pics of what a Turf-Type Tall Fescue yard looks like?

Thanks!