Should I retire my tractors?

[the point man]

Hi Guys!

Being relatively new to all of these forums, I have been surprised
to see how few lawn tractors and garden tractors are being used.
Walk-behinds and Z's seem to dominate, and I'm wondering why.
I should mention that lawn care is a part-time prospect for me
(young but retired police officer) but I'm starting to get into it
and I'm looking to expand my business. I use two John Deere
lawn tractors, happy with them, but I would rather walk than ride.
Aside from that are there substantial reasons that I should be
considering Z's or walk-behinds?. I do 100% residential and mow
about five lawns per day. Time is not a major issue at this point.

[Richard Martin]

Since time is not an issue with you then here are a few reasons I would still opt for a commercial machine.

1: When you show up at a job site with a commercial machine you look more professional. Although image isn't everything it can get you new customers. It lets potential customers know that you are not just like the teenager down the street.

2: I think that commercial machines (some of them anyway) hold up better over the long run of thousands of hours of use.

3: There is a wider variety of blades available for commercial machines. Although JD may make a variety of blades for your mower try getting a set of Gators for it. Not!

4: I think that most commercial machines tend to be of simplier design and are easier to work on for the most part.

[a1 lawncare]

if your going to expand your buisness time will be a major consideration, i was in your shoes till not long ago, i was using a traditional style jd, bougt my first z about a month ago, its a good bit quicker and you could add 3-5 properties a day. find a dealer go demo a quality machine and you'll do the same thing with you jd i'm doing with mine, i either throw a rock at it or kick it every time i go by, just kiddin, there good machines but there not in the same class as a z

take a demo, keith

[TLS]

Point Man,

I was once a big believer of Tractors. Had 2 JD 318's running (18hp Onan 50" cut) Put a couple thousand hours on each. Those were the days before ZTR's really took a strong hold on the market. They held up fairly well. Then I migrated to the JD 935's and also got a 48" WB. I was totally amazed at the increase in production here. Then I went with a ZTR (Dixie) and saw the light. What a difference! Very short learning curve, but the speed is the difference, they actually cut pretty darn good a high speeds, where the tractors just couldn't.

Try em, you'll like em.

[awm]

the good thing about your present mowers is that they will probably trade well. as a lco who just recently changed to ztr from
lt ,i can tell u that the increase in production will be unbelieveable.
shop a lot and id recommend the lazer as thats the one i know,
but there is a lot of good machines out there. good luck

[John DiMartino]

Time is always an issue,so Id sell those JD tractors,since a ZTR will cut at least twice as much grass,and cut it better,and have straighter lines than you can get with a tractor.The tractor is nice for other jobs,but fro mowing it is very slow,and the cut is never as good as a commercial ZTR.

[Flex-Deck]

Thanks The Point Man - I'm with you, as I run JD 455's and a chopper. I still can relax and drive straighter with the ol tractors but they are both very good machines

[mdb landscaping]

you said you rather walk then ride? you may switch your opinion after a while, but maybe you should consider a 52 inch walk behind. its very productive and you will have it for years. after you get used to that and expand your business, you can jump up to a rider. if i was you though, id just jump right onto a ztr. i spent my first year and a half with a 48 inch scag walkbehind, and i bought a lazer after that. i would never be able to be as productive without the ztr.

[65hoss]

The cut quality is far greater with a commercial mower. There is a huge difference to the appearance of the lawns cut with residential tractors verses commercial mowers.

[Eric ELM]

Point Man, I retired my 430 JD tractor from mowing. A ZTR of the same size deck will cut about twice as much with half the effort.

I use mine for snow removal and for dirt work only now.

[Dochere]

Originally posted by the point man
Time is not a major issue at this point. [/B]

If time is not an issue than money isn't either. Efficiently is of utmost importance in this field and those who tend to be most efficient also tend to be the most successful. I value all time as energy. There is energy in everything around you. From the light on your ceiling to the furniture in your house, all took energy to produce, install, etc. What's your energy worth to you? To me, My energy is not only worth the value on my forehead for the time I spend making money, but also the time I have left over, because I was as efficient as possible, to use my energy to do things I want to do ( hobbies, fishing, etc.) Benefiting from the energy you put out, whether monetarily or positive stress (hobbies, kids, etc.), both have there place. What would you rather do? To be efficient allows you to spend energy off the job with out pressure. That to me is time well spent.


The way I see it, is the money you earn has to be beneficial even when your not earning. If you make $200 a day working 8 hours, but your awake, spending energy 16 hours you are only making $12.50 an hour. Try making yourself more efficient, up your daily intake to $300 in 8 hours, and now your at $18.75 much better in my eyes. To do $400 or $500, even better. If you value your time (energy) you would probably rather be paid all day for all your expended energy rather than just for the time you bust your A**. Just my 2 cents.

[kutnkru]

I presume that you are able to survive from your pension and therefore the income you generate from the Green Industry is "extra".

If this is true I would not be so quick to trade/sell your machine(s). I would keep a garden tractor if you have one in the early stages of your arsenal. These units will prove to be valuable if you have a snow plow/blower, tiller, or plan on doing lawn installs/renovations.

You can pull aerators, thatchers, stone rakes, etc. keeping the unit a worthwhile piece of equipment.

Just my .02
Kris

[geogunn]

point man asked:"Should I retire my tractors? "

GEO answers: no. not if you are happy with them.

but if you are interested in stepping up, I'd say yes.

by the way, I hope to step up some day also.

good luck.

GEO

[Flex-Deck]

Eric ELM. - I would like to see how anyone can mow twice as much with a ZTR as a tractor (I'm glad you said about twice as much.) The old 430 was made prior to 1991 and its turning radius is less than ideal. Tractors have come a long way of late also. I will challenge anyone to keep up with my 72" deck - all wheel steer 455. or my 78" deck 455. I am not just talking mowing, but trimming too.

[TLS]

Mr. Dentist,

Not to start a pissing contest...but, I'll put up my 60" Lazer and run circles around your green and yellow 78"s. Thats not even taking into consideration the quality of cut that is at LEAST twice better than the belly JD's. Been there, done it.

Dont get me wrong, I was born and raised on JD's. Even bled green and yellow. But for production/residential/commercial mowing, nothing can beat a ZTR.

Gotta go brush my teeth! BRB

[Eric ELM]

Mowing Dentist, I guess it all depends on what sort of turf your mowing. In a big open field, I probably couldn't mow twice as mich, but on the lawns I mow, I can. I had green and yellow running in my blood too, but when my JD 430 mower deck gear box broke down (AGAIN) I had to mow a couple of days with a Dixon 36" and I figured it would take me forever to mow those lawns. I did them in the SAME time it took with the JD with a 60" deck. This is when I went and got a 60" DC and I ended up having to get twice as much work to keep me busy.

As Tommy said, the cut is much better too. I'm not trying to put your JD's down, I'm just saying that I could take my 60" ZTR and cut my lawns in half the time it takes you and I have lots of hours behind the wheel of a JD as well as behind the sticks of a ZTR.

I guess the reason they still make mower with steering wheels is for people who like them, but for me, I'll never go back. As I said, I still have a 430 with a 60" deck, but I will not mow with it any more. It is used for snow removal and dirt work.

[awm]

ill tell you what dentist ,you just want believe it until you see it.
ill say it . a z will cut your time in half after a short learning period.find a way to try one and see for yourself .what am i talkin about .theres enuf z s out there now.u know there s somethings a lt just cant be beat at. and all that jaz:cool:

[Tony]

While working for a distributor of a name brand ZTR for 8 years I told every retail prospect that I'd cut their mowing time in half. I never had to eat my words but I did have to prove it a few times. Most people can't grasp the time saving but its true. Go to a good dealer near you that is selling a lot of Z's and get a demo. You'll probably be like most of the people I've talked to and be mad somebody hasn't already showed you the light. There's one thing in life you can't buy and that is more time, but you can buy a ZTR and get more time free. I talked to a new proud owner of a Toro Z last week and he told me his wife was mad because he bought the mower, so I asked him why. His reply was because sense he bought it he has so much extra time, he and his son had been getting done early enough to go down to the lake to fish.


Happy Fishing
Tony

[Flex-Deck]

Wow - This is alright, I finally got some response. and it is like I have always kind of thought, there are some of us that like steering wheels and some of us that like handles. That is what makes things go around. I am no doubt as bias for the wheels as some others are for handles. Personally I have run both, and do run both, and my ditches are impossible with the DC. and the all wheel steer makes a lot of difference. sorry about the gear boxes eric, as I guess I must have better luck, because that has been one of the things I love about my 455's is you keep the oil clean, the air clean, grease em and go. I guess that is the secret to all machines. Eric, I am still waiting for a banner to be made, and will check soon, may just have lawnsite do it. Keep cranking folks, this is fun.

[Flex-Deck]

Dear TLS I won't get in a pissing contest in a forum where talk is cheap, but if I am ever in PA or your in Iowa we should look one another up and put the titles on the line.

[kutnkru]

Can I run my '66 stang with the 302 BOSS???

LOL!!! :laugh:
Kris

[lakegastonla]

Got a guy who works for me. He also mows for a construction company 8 hrs a day. He rides a JD 445 with a 60 inch deck. He swears my 48 inch Lesco's cut circles around the 60 inch tractor. Wants his boss to buy walks with sulkies. I believe that the tractor owners are in denial, here.
:confused:

[Andy Lewis]

Hi! You may be happy if you are a John Deere fan that I like theirs next to mine. After trying just about all (took 3 months to make-up my mind, I bought Kubota ZD-18, please try one before you buy it is incredible! Andy

[awm]

dentist we tried to tell you. when you make the trip come by nc.
these three c notes just said they want some of this.
no pink slips ,i dont need your machine.email me private if interested. the deal is i can show you with no question left that the z is a better mow machine. so there it is brother peace to you.

[plow kid]

I'll bet $100 that the 455 gets spanked http://members.aol.com/ncls484/smilies/spank.gif

[summitgroundskeeping]

If you don't yet relize the thousands of benifits of w/b or ZTRs, try one out. You will be kicking yourself in the butt for weeks for not getting one sooner. The benifits are so obvious when you just look at the machines, look at the quality cut, lines, TURN RADIUS, simplicity of working on one, and amout of fun they are to use. Got to love FAST lawnmowers. Good luck .

[Flex-Deck]

AWM - I have run both ZTR and Tractors, and both are enhanced greatly by the flex-deck trimming attachment. see our sponsor forum for details.

[mowingmachine]

I would have to agree with the dentist that a tractor could be just as fast as a ZTR on two conditions. The tractor would have to have a compariable ground speed and the yard would have to be very large with very little to mow around. The majority of wasted time in a yard is turning and that is why a ZTR is so much faster in a small yard. A turn around with a ZTR has to be 3-4 times faster.

mowingmachine

[awm]

just wanted to mention that when this post started
i thought point man was just asking advice.thats why i posted to start with. to each his own.

[Richard Martin]

Actually I thought Point Man had responded earlier in the thread to comments made but I can't see it now. Perhaps he requested his response be removed after he saw the "point"less pissing match going on.

[SLS]

I went to the John Deere website and found these specs for the 455 AWS w/ 3 cylinder Yanmar diesel:


Forward speeds, 23-in rear tires 0-7.5 mph (0-12 km/h)
Reverse speeds, 23-in rear tires 0-4 mph (0-6.4 km/h)

Forward speeds, 26-in rear tires 0-8.5 mph (0-13.7 km/h)
Reverse speeds, 26-in rear tires 0-4.25 mph (0-6.8)



Taking into consideration the faster forward ground speed and turning radius of the ZTR's I think I'll put my cash on my 60" Lazer Z. ;)

I know that my Scotts 1642 (5.3 mph TOPS) is used only for towing and pulling these days as the Lazer DOUBLED my productivity on 1 acre residential lawns...plus my butt and elbows are a lot less sore at the end of the day.

[HOMER]

Point Man

Time is money, always has been and always will be. The faster you are the more you can make. The 5 yards a day will turn into 10 and no..............you really don't want to walk that much. A ZTR is simply a more productive machine.............I went from a tractor to a slow ZTR and my total time on my lawns was cut straight in half.............moved up to a faster machine and saved even more.

Find somebody mowing with a ZTR and watch how productive they really are, better yet go demo one on a property that you currently mow..............have the dealer run it for you so you can see the difference.............they are made for the purpose of being more productive, if they weren't then there would be no point in spending the extra money for them.

[AltaLawnCare]

Something else to consider is that you have enough work to justify the expense. I have about 7500 in both of my front line mowers combined. If you are costing out your equipment per hour a Z may be about twice as much - but you can cut your time in half, so it should work out.
On the other hand if someone is buying a big riding mower just for commercial work, a Z should be the way to go. Everyone I've ever talked to has said the Z's are a lot faster than LT type mowers.

[Flex-Deck]

Am looking forward to the BBQ, and will have demo unit on hand and would also like to drive your mowers people. I am in a part of the country where it seems everyone runs tractors, and I may be in for some big surprises as to what other mowers can do, and I hope I am not so blind as to not be totally impartial, and I sincerely hope people with jump on my 455 with an open mind and take it for a run. Chuck and I have talked about the BBQ and in his words this is a fun time type get together, no high pressure sales stuff etc, and that sounds wonderful to me. I will have a mowing course set up and a tractor there - feel free to jump on and try it. Thanks.

[Flex-Deck]

Thanks mowingmachine. I hope you can make it to the BBQ, because mowing around things and between things is what we do best. Thanks

[Ric]

Retired Law enforcement my self. Started in the lawn business for pin money. Divorce!!! now I cut caused I am pinned for money. If you are enjoying what you are doing then don't worry about time. I started with a tractor but went to Z rider while still doing pin money. I charged more than the full timer cause I though my work was better. Now I am full time and I still charge more because I know my work is better. Remember cheap work gets cheap refferals.

Z's and W/B both turn shorter than tractors therefor you can change your cut pattern easier. It is hard to cut diagonals with a tractor. Stay away from gear drive W/B they will work you to death even though they give an excellance cut.

Enjoy mother nature she a lot less stressiful than our old jobs.

[Albemarle Lawn]

How about working 3 hours for every 5 hours you work with a riding mower.

Every hour of your short life can only be lived once.

Ken

[hustlers]

keep the tractors their good machines , if you have
lots more work i would , but you might have better
profit margin with the old JD's and youll get sick
of gettin home at 1:30 with the Z and nothing
to do.

[Flex-Deck]

Here is the deal - I seem to get the impression that a 60" ZTR can mow circles around my 455 flex-deck set up (60" Main deck + 18" flex-deck) and in fact there seems to be a lot of C bills in the preceeding posts that attest to that fact. I would challenge you to this at the BBQ.
1. We will take a 100 yard run with an identical tree at the end that must be completely trimmed around and then return. At that point we can check times-I will have mowed 13' and they will have mowed 10' so there will be adjustments as to square feet per minute mowed.
2. We will then go to a ditch and mow narrow bottoms, over culverts, and steep sides (30 degree type).
3. We will then go to a yard that is small, (the smaller the better) (and the more trimming the better) and will trim around and between bushes, clothes line poles, bird feeders, and anything else that is 26" apart or more. I will find the yard if possible and if challenged.
The loser must agree to at least try the winners machine with an open mind. Thanks, Brad

[Tony]

Will someone go to the BBQ and run Brad @ Flex-Deck? I didn't see to many posts from tractor owners that mow perhaps they are still out mowing. Tractors are good for pulling aerators, spreaders and mowing if you have plenty of time. Have FUN at the BBQ. If yall want some real BBQ we can sent it to ya from the BBQ capital of the World,Lexington, North Carolina. Maybe some lawnsite members from N.C. would like to get together next spring? Eat BBQ, eat BBQ, eat BBQ and of course race those fast mowing tractors. I'm having fun with this post.



Tony

[65hoss]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tony
If yall want some real BBQ we can sent it to ya from the BBQ capital of the World,Lexington, North Carolina.


Humm, I never heard that one before!

[Tony]

Yep, Check it out. That is our claim to fame since the tobacco bussiness ( our old cash crop) went downhill, now in North Carolina we're the first or second in hog production. Most good barbecue houses cook their barbecue daily over hickory coals.
Look at the link below and if you want to try it come to Speedy's Barbecue, their on the list. Don't ever go by NC without trying some.


http://www.barbecuefestival.com/

[AltaLawnCare]

I think Flex wants to race a Z! If I read the post right.

Flex what are you gonna do if some one shows up on a flatlander 60" with one of those wings hung off teh side of it??

BTW, I think the flex deck is a pretty good idea, I' watching the posts hoping more and more people will try it.

[Flex-Deck]

AltaLawnCare- That wing on the 60" flatlander is my flex-deck. We have an exclusive with DC in the ZTR market. We are now looking at the WB market which could be huge. If the winged DC (78") trimming and contour mowing machine shows, I am probably dead meat, but the posts above have all been indicating that a 60" ZTR can mow TWICE what I can. I cannot explain how this works, and I hope people will get on the seat and give it an honest try in the wide open as well as very small crowded hard to trim areas. Thanks, Brad

[gorrell]

Brad, no disrespect intended, but I don't know of any(any) full time lco's in my area that run tractors. The tractor mower is dying a not so very slow death in the lawn care industry. I'd definitely push the sales of the flex-deck to the wb's and the ztr's. I'll have one soon for one of my Dixies before the end of the year. I saw it at Louisville and really liked it. Hope I can make it to the BBQ..................Lynn

[Eric ELM]

Originally posted by gorrell
Hope I can make it to the BBQ..................Lynn

As close as you are, I hope you can too Lynn. :)

We have members driving from all over the USA, so your little trip is nothing. You need to go down and at least say HI to everyone. ;)

[Flex-Deck]

Tony - Xmark and Hustler are going to be there. Call them and ask them to represent you believers that the ZTR can mow TWICE as much as my tractor. Please pay attention to previous posts I have made as to what I have and what I can do. Nobody really understands the concept even when they see a picture. I have to either get them on the seat or show a very complete video. Somewhere in the forum, someone asked what I would do if a DC flatlander with that wing on the side shows up,(I explained that that is my flex-deck thru an exclusive with them) and if they show up, my tractor MAY be dead meat. But against a 60" ZTR I believe I will compete. By the way, this will be fun and the loser has to drive the winning machine with an open mind.
REMEMBER, If I mow 100 yds up and back that is a 13' swath. To mow twice that would require a 26' swath (2 full rounds plus one more) If you want to talk small trimming areas, I will bury anyone other that the DC with the flex-deck. LETS HAVE some FUN.

[Flex-Deck]

Lynn - You've got to be at the BBQ for the big race. Thanks Brad

[Flex-Deck]

The 455 is the only mower at the BBQ that ventured into the road ditch in front of the lodge, and nobody offered to challenge. It was a great time, and thanks to all that put in the time to make the thing work. Thanks, Brad We did have a lot of interest in the WB with the flip up flex-deck.