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View Full Version : PAR36 halogen = #1 lamp for outdoor lighting


pete scalia
09-30-2007, 11:53 PM
I happen to agree with nate. Anyone who says different doesn't know what they are talking about. Pound for pound can't be beat.

Eden Lights
10-01-2007, 12:29 AM
I happen to agree with nate. Anyone who says different doesn't know what they are talking about. Pound for pound can't be beat.

I just had a the very same conversion with some professionals this week end. I explained it to them with this analogy: There are two kinds of swimming pools one is a packaged above ground vinyl liner pool with plastic coping and the other is a custom in ground gunite and plaster pool, tile trim, and stone coping. They both are classified as swimming pools, but not one of these designers would allow a vinyl liner pool in their projects. I stressed to them that if they allow pars to be installed in their projects they where in essence doing the same disservice to their clients.

pete scalia
10-01-2007, 12:30 AM
What is it that you have against PAR's Eden?

Eden Lights
10-01-2007, 12:46 AM
Everything. There are no good par fixtures first of all, but lets just pretend there was. There is only one decent quality Par and that is the GE35WFL and I seldom use a lamp with that high a lumen output. While I seldom talk fixtures to my clients, I always talk to them about Pars vs. MR's in our first meeting and let them know their are vinyl pools and there are custom pools and you cannot compare them. I could go on and on but really Pars are like a artist with one brush and MR's are like having a whole bag of brushes in your tool bag. Paint how ever you want.

pete scalia
10-01-2007, 01:13 AM
Their are only 2 good PAR's, that would be the mentioned 35W WFL GE and the 36 watt WFL sylvania. When a PAR get's wet it's no sweat. When a MR get's wet it's all over but the shouting. A well balanced diet includes both PAR's and MR's. I don't understand the problem.

Eden Lights
10-01-2007, 01:17 AM
Different things work for different people, no problem.

Lite4
10-01-2007, 01:56 AM
I'm with pete on this one. I primarily use MRs, but when I need the power and spread of something larger; an MR can't match the Par for it's particular application. I won't limit myself to just one Paint brush when there are other ones that can do a better job for achieving a particular effect on the canvas.

Chris J
10-01-2007, 08:45 AM
I say to each his own, but to make a statement such as "If you don't think PAR's are #1 then you don't know what you are talking about?" Well, that's just ignorant. Everyone has their 1st choice of lighting products and/or lamps. You shouldn't try to belittle someone for not sharing your point of view.

NiteTymeIlluminations
10-01-2007, 08:45 AM
I have to say that I discourage the use of PARs every day. They are emergency sign light bulbs. And as far as pread I think they are horrible. Now if I needed a 8 degree beam of light from a far distance the PAR36 is a reasonable bulb. Some think that because PARs are bigger than the MRs they give a wide flood. I disagree completely.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-01-2007, 09:28 AM
The PAR36 lamp does have its place. I have used Nine (9) of them in the last decade or so. Given that there are very few decent fixtures to install them into, given that their means of connection to the wiring system is prone to failure and that their lifespan is relatively limited, I generally opt for the use of MR16 lamps.

To state that a PAR36 lamp is the only option for large volume output and wide beamspread is misleading at best. There are a host of MR16 lamps that offer high output and wide beam spread. When used with filters your options increase even more. If you really want or need to 'pump up the volume' then look to AR111 lamps in commercial or specification grade fixtures.

Have a great day.

NiteTymeIlluminations
10-01-2007, 09:35 AM
Well stated James...Pete I just have a question for you though...for someone who uses Ace connectors solely...i'm a little shocked at your idea that PARs are the best lamp for outdoor lighting...where does all this stem from...do you track the life of your bulbs? What does you statement stem from? how many jobs have you used PARs vs MRs or ARs? I'm just curious?

bmwsmity
10-01-2007, 10:06 AM
I still use a mix.

I once attempted using all MR's in a job, and quickly found out that the builder was totally IN LOVE with PARs, for lack of education. I finally went in and switched some out for him to make him happy.

The other side of things is that some customers don't like the looks of MR's due to them sticking up so far.

I think the most important thing here is to properly interview the customer and discover what they are looking for. Sometimes the customer's ideas aren't what we consider "right", but as long as quality is not compromised from a technical standpoint, then that is what we should give them.

NiteTymeIlluminations
10-01-2007, 10:10 AM
Justin if they dont like the mr16 fixtures sticking up and want well lights you think they are going to like the look of those big ole bulbs??? just tesing man....use an mr16 well light...novas, 15190s, whatever...put a 60 degree bulb in there you are using better bulb and not seeing the fixture...

Lite4
10-01-2007, 10:22 AM
You know, I just looked at the photometric data between the par and MR in a 35 watt. Not much difference. I have used a few pars, but have limited their application due to poor lamp holders. I definitely use way more MRs. I'll have to go out and do some comparisons on the same walls and trees etc.. side by side, and see really how much difference I see. I'll try and post some pics.

NightLightingFX
10-01-2007, 12:31 PM
I don't use very many Par's, I don't feel like I have to much control of being able to accent with them, it is hard to use lens with them. However, I do like mixing them in with MR16's when lighting trees. I think they have a little more punch than MR16's. Another thing I like about Par Well fixtures is that it is easier to angle your lamp. Where in most MR16 well lights you don't have the flexibility in angling the lamp. I used GE VNSP on this project. I experimented with MR16's. MR16 just didn't have the punch and seemed to have more light wash at the bottom of the beam. You can't create a pillar effect with MR16's. I think there is still a place for them in a lighting portrait.
~Ned
www.nightlightingfx.com

NiteTymeIlluminations
10-01-2007, 12:36 PM
nice tight beams thats what you get from PARs...great picture...worth a thousand words for sure...now if you needed a spread the mr16 would have been the bulb...weird huh?

bmwsmity
10-01-2007, 12:55 PM
Justin if they dont like the mr16 fixtures sticking up and want well lights you think they are going to like the look of those big ole bulbs??? just tesing man....use an mr16 well light...novas, 15190s, whatever...put a 60 degree bulb in there you are using better bulb and not seeing the fixture...

I had a feeling you were going to reply back with this ;)

One problem I run into is that nearly all of my jobs are additions and repairs to existing systems, which happen to have PAR36 wells already incorporated into the system. If the customer has 10 PAR wells on their house, and 2 need replacing, it would be kind of odd to not use PAR wells in their place (that is, if I can't sell them on replacing all the wells).

To be honest, I never knew you had such a vehement hate of PAR's Doug. You've definitely changed my perspective.

NiteTymeIlluminations
10-01-2007, 01:18 PM
if tyou are replacing you got me...i'd rather see consistency for sure...I dont hate PARs just don't thinkthey are as good as MRs...don't like bi pins, t3s and 4s too much anymore either...I think paths should use mr16s...

SamIV
10-01-2007, 02:14 PM
Frankly, I have had much better luck with the G4 bi-pin than MR-16's as far lamp life goes. I have a client that I have never changed his bi-pins in four years but I have replaced several of his MR-16's. And before anyone asks, he won't let me do a complete re-lamp and they run for an average of 4.5 hours per night and are Ushio's. Only let's me know when he needs others replaced.

SamIV

NiteTymeIlluminations
10-01-2007, 02:23 PM
I need to bring in some Ushio stuff for sure.

JoeyD
10-01-2007, 02:35 PM
WOW! That is the first thing that comes to mind here. I think you all know where I probably stand here, I love the Par 36. I think there are situations where an MR16 could not do even close to what a Par could do. Although MR16's are more widely used and fixture choices far exceed those with PAR lamps to say that there isn't one good fixture utilizing a PAR lamp is pretty outlandish and in my opinion wrong. I know for a fact there is at least one good fixture because I make one the BIG BANG. sure it is big and bulky but somethings especially taller trees and architecture require a bigger bulkier lamp. One person said it here, they do not want to limit there tool box to one paint brush, I couldn't agree more. I have more pics then I can think of that would show what a great job a PAR 36 does.

WHAT"D YOU SAY BOUT MY MAMA??????

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/RSFMarkMullen.jpg

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-01-2007, 03:24 PM
Joey... I think that is an impressive photo. I personally don't think the lighting is very impressive though. Like a lot of the photos you show us, there is no subtlety here. Everything is overly pronounced and overly bright. Not to mention all of the visible sources in the ground.

This is of course my personal opinon and perhaps the client is thrilled. I try to impart a much more soft look to my designs. It is supposed to be dark at night after all! Sometimes less is more.

Have a great day.

JoeyD
10-01-2007, 04:07 PM
James-
This job is a Commercial jobsite. Commercial jobs will have different approaches and in this case needed to be brighter than your standard resdential design. Here they used Apollo well lights with the standard 35w WFL lamp. You mention the spots on the gound but when this design was done the thought of having this many aboive ground lights far outweighed the negatives of having some ground spots from where the light is being emmited. It is a fair trade I think. I would rather have a nice natural landscape during the day without having 40-50 stake mounted lights here.

But in the spirit of the post would you use MR16's for this??? I dont htink the MR16 would be the right choice for this job and that was the point I was making here.

Joey D.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-01-2007, 04:25 PM
Joey. Being a commercial job I can understand that the higher light levels would be justified. (then again, I have done a massive scale commercial project that was very soft and natural looking by design) At the very least I would have been looking for an eyebrow or a grate to remove the source glare at night. It really is distracting.

Have a great day.

NiteTymeIlluminations
10-01-2007, 04:28 PM
very very distracting...mybe its a photo thing though...it may not be that glary in real life

JoeyD
10-01-2007, 04:48 PM
Well that was discuses but our problem was the slope. Any Eyerow would have knocked out to much light and our Eclipse Glare Shield stood to high for the client. We did however since this photos was taken add in Hex Louvers and Commercial Brass grates which have helped tremendously with the glare spots on the ground.

Lite4
10-01-2007, 09:58 PM
Just needs a grate over the well and that's all. Otherwise for a boulevard of street trees on an entryway, I think the light level is very appropriate for the situation. More mellow lighting goes into areas that are more personal and those in which the viewer is interacting with the environment on a more personal level. I like it.

ChampionLS
10-01-2007, 11:25 PM
I dont wanna hear anybody's crap about viewing the light source.!! :nono:

In grade lighting is in grade lighting. :hammerhead:

Those look like high powered KIM fixtures. Probably 220V... let me get my sunglasses on :cool2:

It looks great. :drinkup:

pete scalia
10-01-2007, 11:49 PM
Well that was discuses but our problem was the slope. Any Eyerow would have knocked out to much light and our Eclipse Glare Shield stood to high for the client. We did however since this photos was taken add in Hex Louvers and Commercial Brass grates which have helped tremendously with the glare spots on the ground.

Joey you don't have to explain or make excuses for anything. That job is friggin amazing. Anyone who says it's too bright is just plain jealous because they have no clue in hell how to get 12 volts to a lamp. I saw some photos from another guy who has a website and is always knocking unique for surface brightness. I have news for this guy he has no clue. I'm sure his lights run at 8 and 9 volts based on the hiddeous photos he showed on the site. Jealosy is a horrible thing and I see much of it here with many of the remarks made. Don't take the remarks made to heart by a bunch of guys who are home during working hours sitting in front of the computer because they have no lighting job to go to.

pete scalia
10-02-2007, 12:10 AM
Well stated James...Pete I just have a question for you though...for someone who uses Ace connectors solely...i'm a little shocked at your idea that PARs are the best lamp for outdoor lighting...where does all this stem from...do you track the life of your bulbs? What does you statement stem from? how many jobs have you used PARs vs MRs or ARs? I'm just curious?

probably 80 percent MR and 20 percent PAR when it comes to reflector bulbs. As stated earlier there is only one wattage lamp that is worth anything so it limits it's application. I will use a PAR over a FMW almost any day of the week. I can tell you from my own experience that a halogen PAR on average out lives an MR hands down.

Lite4
10-02-2007, 12:12 AM
Pete, check your PM

Eden Lights
10-02-2007, 12:31 AM
A or B???????????????????

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-02-2007, 12:35 AM
Joey you don't have to explain or make excuses for anything. That job is friggin amazing. Anyone who says it's too bright is just plain jealous because they have no clue in hell how to get 12 volts to a lamp. I saw some photos from another guy who has a website and is always knocking unique for surface brightness. I have news for this guy he has no clue. I'm sure his lights run at 8 and 9 volts based on the hiddeous photos he showed on the site. Jealosy is a horrible thing and I see much of it here with many of the remarks made. Don't take the remarks made to heart by a bunch of guys who are home during working hours sitting in front of the computer because they have no lighting job to go to.

Hey Man, you REALLY need to stop bashing and insulting the other people on this forum. Your posts are for the most part very abusive and not very productive. It would appear your only real talent is stirring the pot. The above quoted post by you is a perfect example of this.

Do you not often find yourself regretting the posts you make? If not, you should. Remember this is a public forum and the posts here are in the public domain.

From this point on I will refuse to contribute, comment, or refute your postings. You have proven yourself not worth the time or effort.

Eden Lights
10-02-2007, 12:44 AM
We have a exclusive 3 year lamp, maintenance, and labor warranty on every system that we install with automated controls. We track lamp performance very carefully and at a min. we are getting three years on the life of a GE Constant Color Precise lamp with almost no lumen or color loss. this is based on a dusk to midnight setup. This type of warranty saves the client about $2500 in lamp costs vs. or PAR competitors.

pete scalia
10-02-2007, 12:46 AM
We have a exclusive 3 year lamp, maintenance, and labor warranty on every system that we install with automated controls. We track lamp performance very carefully and at a min. we are getting three years on the life of a GE Constant Color Precise lamp with almost no lumen or color loss. this is based on a dusk to midnight setup. This type of warranty saves the client about $2500 in lamp costs vs. or PAR competitors.

In previous posts you have stated you used the osram lamp. So which one is it the osram or the GE?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-02-2007, 12:49 AM
We have a exclusive 3 year lamp, maintenance, and labor warranty on every system that we install with automated controls. We track lamp performance very carefully and at a min. we are getting three years on the life of a GE Constant Color Precise lamp with almost no lumen or color loss. this is based on a dusk to midnight setup. This type of warranty saves the client about $2500 in lamp costs vs. or PAR competitors.

Sounds like a great program and certainly a great choice in lamps! I stand by the GE Constant Colour MR16 line after experimenting with many others.

You might be interested in using an Hour Meter on your systems. I came up with this idea a couple of years ago to assist in tracking maintenance requirements for our clients. You can get them from Nightscaping... part number is T-SS-HM.

Have a great day.

Lite4
10-02-2007, 01:11 AM
Wow Eddie, 3 years on an MR is fantastic. Do you set those to be on the lower end of the safe voltage for the halogens to extend their life? I have been doing an annual change out on bulbs, but it just bugs me to remove a working bulb and throw it away when, who knows it could have another year on it. Then again, it may only have 1 day left. I just do mine annually because I hate driving all the way back to a site every 3-4 weeks to replace a bulb or two. My .02 on the GE constant color- by far the most reliable bulb I have used for color consistancy between bulbs, longevity, and true lumen output. One great MR

Chris J
10-02-2007, 08:05 AM
James,
As you have already figured out, there are some on this forum that are not worth wasting your time on. They are very stubborn, and claim they know everything, yet they don't even share any information on their company with websites and such so we can verify their integrity. Look at the first post of this thread, for example. Now that we have had the opportunity to tallysome votes, we now know that you, me, Eden and several other very talented individuals who are very established in this business "do not know what we are talking about" because we do not buy into the concept that the PAR lamp is the best lamp choice on the market. Go figure.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-02-2007, 09:11 AM
Wow Eddie, 3 years on an MR is fantastic. Do you set those to be on the lower end of the safe voltage for the halogens to extend their life? I have been doing an annual change out on bulbs, but it just bugs me to remove a working bulb and throw it away when, who knows it could have another year on it. Then again, it may only have 1 day left. I just do mine annually because I hate driving all the way back to a site every 3-4 weeks to replace a bulb or two. My .02 on the GE constant color- by far the most reliable bulb I have used for color consistancy between bulbs, longevity, and true lumen output. One great MR

Hey Tim.. You might want to try out the Hour Meter I talked about earlier. It is really an essential tool if you want to service your clients in an efficient manner. It is a digital meter that turns on and counts hours when the system is on. Non-resettable, but you just put a log sheet inside the transformer enclosure to keep track. Knowing that your shortest life lamp is rated at say 3,000 hours, you can easily check and see how long the system has run for. After 3,000 hours you initiate a full lamp changeout program. The clients really like knowing they are getting custom maintenance based on real life use of their system.

Have a great day.

NiteTymeIlluminations
10-02-2007, 09:53 AM
Well put chris!!! and james...and tim...etc...

Eden Lights
10-02-2007, 09:55 AM
In previous posts you have stated you used the osram lamp. So which one is it the osram or the GE?

We carry 5 MR's just in BAB all the time. First choice is the Precise, We go with the Titan if we need a BAB60 then, if we need a low lumen BAB60 then we use the Ushio, if we need more lumens than the Precise we go to the Titan BAB35 which is great when your using a lens since it is much more powerful than the Precise. Last would be special applications and a need for even higher lumens which we would use the Osram IR lamps in BAB40 and BAB60. Then if we still need more light we start this process all over in the 35 watt range. This process doesn't include when a narrow beam is need for special effects. We have spread sheets on lamp #'s, lumens, and all other specs. on the trucks for qick reference and stocking. Man it would be so much easier to just stock the PAR3635WFL wouldn't it.

JoeyD
10-02-2007, 10:38 AM
Thanks for your fine words of encouragement guys!! I suppose i will stick around!! By the way Eden I do like the photo shopped side!! LOL

Chris J
10-02-2007, 12:41 PM
We carry 5 MR's just in BAB all the time. First choice is the Precise, We go with the Titan if we need a BAB60 then, if we need a low lumen BAB60 then we use the Ushio, if we need more lumens than the Precise we go to the Titan BAB35 which is great when your using a lens since it is much more powerful than the Precise. Last would be special applications and a need for even higher lumens which we would use the Osram IR lamps in BAB40 and BAB60. Then if we still need more light we start this process all over in the 35 watt range. This process doesn't include when a narrow beam is need for special effects. We have spread sheets on lamp #'s, lumens, and all other specs. on the trucks for qick reference and stocking. Man it would be so much easier to just stock the PAR3635WFL wouldn't it.

What? You mean we have choices? WOW! Just imagine what I can do now!
:weightlifter:

JoeyD
10-02-2007, 12:56 PM
Eden, how do you ever keep track of all the different lamps on every job? It has got to be a maintenance nightmare. I am not talking about the maintenance 6 months after the install, I am talking about the maintenance 3-4 years later. It has got to be hard or almost impossible to remember what beam and what lamp at what lumen you use in each fixture?? I am not implying you should only use one lamp but from what you just described it sounds pretty tuff to keep up with which lamp went where.

bmwsmity
10-02-2007, 01:09 PM
Eden, how do you ever keep track of all the different lamps on every job? It has got to be a maintenance nightmare. I am not talking about the maintenance 6 months after the install, I am talking about the maintenance 3-4 years later. It has got to be hard or almost impossible to remember what beam and what lamp at what lumen you use in each fixture?? I am not implying you should only use one lamp but from what you just described it sounds pretty tuff to keep up with which lamp went where.

I have to agree with you there Joey. As long as someone is a one or two man show, this is feasible. However, once a business grows to a larger crew, this may become problematic.

What systems do you have in place Eden in order to make this more scalable? Do you have logs of some sort or a program that tracks customer info such as ACT! ?

By the way, ACT! is a great customer relationship management (CRM) program that can be purchased for about $50 on ebay used. For anyone with a large or rapidly growing client list, this can help tremendously with keeping track of things such as types of lamps, etc. :drinkup:

JoeyD
10-02-2007, 01:15 PM
I am a big believer in As Built drawings and job documentation so I could se ehow you could track it. The problem is just like you stated bmwsmity, if your not the guy going out there in 3 or 4 years do you send your guy with an as built and form of the types of lamps used where?? Seems like an obsticle, one that can be hurdled but not without a lot of effort and time.

I know a lot of people use lots of different lamps, to me I just see it as a maintenance nightmare. It is part of why we preach using designer lenses vs. different beam spread lamps.

Lite4
10-02-2007, 01:31 PM
James,
I would be very interested in these hour meters. That is a fantastic idea to monitor hours in that manner. Do you find you are getting the full 3000 hours with the GEs?

Lite4
10-02-2007, 01:38 PM
Joey,
I do a list of bulbs used on every job and file it in my maintenace folder for when I need it. When it comes due I just pull the bulbs I need and off I go.

JoeyD
10-02-2007, 02:16 PM
Seems simple enough

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-02-2007, 04:29 PM
James,
I would be very interested in these hour meters. That is a fantastic idea to monitor hours in that manner. Do you find you are getting the full 3000 hours with the GEs?

It really depends on the system and where the installation is located in. We are in a very rugged, rural area with an old electrical supply grid. The biggest problem we have here with lamps is power conditioning. The transients and 'dirty power' that come down the line to my client's is sometimes mind boggling. Then add in the lighting strikes and the associated problems with them and the odds of a MR16 Halogen lamp lasting 3K to 4K hours is reduced.

That being said, I have some jobs where I regularly see the GE lamps lasting 4.5K to 5K hours. It all depends. On my large installations I now ensure that the property is fitted with a Main Panel Surge Protector (Whole home). These go a long way to solving premature lamp failures.

Have a great day.

eskerlite
10-02-2007, 09:49 PM
I cant get 1000hrs out of a par lamp. I cant find a good par fixture. Well lights are a nuisaunce. I have not used a par fixture for 8 years. What can a par do that a mr cant?
Sean C.

pete scalia
10-02-2007, 10:01 PM
We carry 5 MR's just in BAB all the time. First choice is the Precise, We go with the Titan if we need a BAB60 then, if we need a low lumen BAB60 then we use the Ushio, if we need more lumens than the Precise we go to the Titan BAB35 which is great when your using a lens since it is much more powerful than the Precise. Last would be special applications and a need for even higher lumens which we would use the Osram IR lamps in BAB40 and BAB60. Then if we still need more light we start this process all over in the 35 watt range. This process doesn't include when a narrow beam is need for special effects. We have spread sheets on lamp #'s, lumens, and all other specs. on the trucks for qick reference and stocking. Man it would be so much easier to just stock the PAR3635WFL wouldn't it.

Is the Titan really more powerful than the precise? I did not know that. Is it that much more noticable?

Chris J
10-02-2007, 10:01 PM
Sean, I hope you read the first post in this thread. If you did, then welcome to our club. It's called the "we don't know crap committee", and it is comprised of very wealthy and sucessfull business owners who "don't know what we are talking about." :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Eden Lights
10-03-2007, 12:41 AM
Eden, how do you ever keep track of all the different lamps on every job? It has got to be a maintenance nightmare. I am not talking about the maintenance 6 months after the install, I am talking about the maintenance 3-4 years later. It has got to be hard or almost impossible to remember what beam and what lamp at what lumen you use in each fixture?? I am not implying you should only use one lamp but from what you just described it sounds pretty tuff to keep up with which lamp went where.

It's not a problem for us, but we are a small shop that provides a least some level of documentation to most projects. Plus it's pretty easy to look at the lamp and put the same lamp back in that you take out.

Eden Lights
10-03-2007, 12:54 AM
I am a big believer in As Built drawings and job documentation so I could se ehow you could track it. The problem is just like you stated bmwsmity, if your not the guy going out there in 3 or 4 years do you send your guy with an as built and form of the types of lamps used where?? Seems like an obsticle, one that can be hurdled but not without a lot of effort and time.

I know a lot of people use lots of different lamps, to me I just see it as a maintenance nightmare. It is part of why we preach using designer lenses vs. different beam spread lamps.

Everyone must find a balance between speed and ease vs. the final composition. I can usually walk a art gallery and pick the most expensive pieces in just a few minutes just by the way that they look. We are trying to find our niche by being World Class in every way to our clients, we can always drop back and focus on production type work if our model doesn't work for us, but more than likely we will scale by have two separate lighting companies that focus on two different markets within the next year.

Eden Lights
10-03-2007, 01:08 AM
Is the Titan really more powerful than the precise? I did not know that. Is it that much more noticable?

When I get a chance I will post my lamp sheets, but I think the GE CC Precise BAB40 comes in at 525CP, the Titan BAB35 is at 780CP which just replaced the BAB40 at 700cp, and the Titan IR BAB35 is at 1000CP. To get a feel for how much of a difference this really is the Ushio BAB60 is only a subtle 270CP. While lighting is subjective and if a PAR is working for you then keep on. I will say that the GEPAR3635WFL is a very smooth lamp, but for me and my clients it's just to bright except in high ambient light conditions or very very tall architecture.

pete scalia
10-10-2007, 01:17 AM
When I get a chance I will post my lamp sheets, but I think the GE CC Precise BAB40 comes in at 525CP, the Titan BAB35 is at 780CP which just replaced the BAB40 at 700cp, and the Titan IR BAB35 is at 1000CP. To get a feel for how much of a difference this really is the Ushio BAB60 is only a subtle 270CP. While lighting is subjective and if a PAR is working for you then keep on. I will say that the GEPAR3635WFL is a very smooth lamp, but for me and my clients it's just to bright except in high ambient light conditions or very very tall architecture.

Eden, When you get a chance can you post those lamp charts? Thank you.

Eden Lights
10-15-2007, 05:17 PM
Pete, I forgot about the lamp charts. Sorry

I still consider two main types and qualities of Landscape lighting.

Those who spec Par's out of attempt to gain market share from being the cheapest guy around.

vs.

Those who spec MR's out of attempt to provide quality outdoor lighting that they plan on standing behind and are providing their clients with a far superior product even though it may mean only doing the front yard instead of the front and the back yard due to budget constraints. In 3-5 years the price savings of Pars will long be forgotten and MR systems will become the least expensive system.

JoeyD
10-15-2007, 05:22 PM
Pete, I forgot about the lamp charts. Sorry

I still consider two main types and qualities of Landscape lighting.

Those who spec Par's out of attempt to gain market share from being the cheapest guy around.

vs.

Those who spec MR's out of attempt to provide quality outdoor lighting that they plan on standing behind and are providing their clients with a far superior product even though it may mean only doing the front yard instead of the front and the back yard due to budget constraints. In 3-5 years the price savings of Pars will long be forgotten and MR systems will become the least expensive system.


Oh comeon Eden. I know plenty of high end installers who specify Par 36 Lamps. You know our Big Bang uses a Par 36. Not all fixtures using this lamp are well lights. I know you didnt state this but I can only assume this what you are implying.

extlights
10-15-2007, 06:14 PM
Most of the fixtures we install utilize the PAR 36 bulb.......Even more than the MR16's. Also...price is hardly a concern between fixtures with a PAR and fixtures using a MR16...i.e. bullet style fixtures...For us they are just about the same price.

I read and read these threads and can't believe how many people don't like the PAR36 lamps. We've never ever had a problem with those lamps, and as far as designs go....I prefer a PAR over a MR16 anyday. It could come down to using those lamps regularly and not the MR16's. I can get just about any look I want using certain fixtures containing the PARs with different spreads....I can't say that about MR16's....again I don't use them much though. To each their own...go with what works. We use mainly PARs and we are hardly the cheapest guy around or a bunch hacks.....we usually clean up everyone else's mess around here.

JoeyD
10-15-2007, 06:59 PM
I hear ya! I just dont see the problems with Par 36 lamps. To me they have always been a reliable lamp to use. I really believe that people just associate Par's with Well Lights and there beef has more to do with the welllight than the lamp. But I dont know. Eddie is one of the more credible guys here so I trust what he says but I think it comes down tot he fixture as well as the manufacturer of the Par lamp. We have had experience with Sylvania Par lamps wich were crap and failed almost imediatly but the GE seems to be such a reliable bulb, I just cant get away from it!

bmwsmity
10-15-2007, 07:02 PM
Pete, I forgot about the lamp charts. Sorry

I still consider two main types and qualities of Landscape lighting.

Those who spec Par's out of attempt to gain market share from being the cheapest guy around.

vs.

Those who spec MR's out of attempt to provide quality outdoor lighting that they plan on standing behind and are providing their clients with a far superior product even though it may mean only doing the front yard instead of the front and the back yard due to budget constraints. In 3-5 years the price savings of Pars will long be forgotten and MR systems will become the least expensive system.

Depends on the fixture. There are plenty of PAR fixtures that cost more than MR16 accents. Such as the 15488 or the Hadco Rubber Boot Well, both of which are 5-7 bucks more than a 15384 accent. I'm not even gonna start on the price of an Apollo or Big Bang from Unique (sorry Joey).

Then, if you consider the fact that MR16 bulbs are HALF the price of a PAR bulb, the argument for people using PARs for a market penetration strategy goes out the window.

Not that I'm advocating PARs or anything :drinkup:

JoeyD
10-15-2007, 07:26 PM
Depends on the fixture. There are plenty of PAR fixtures that cost more than MR16 accents. Such as the 15488 or the Hadco Rubber Boot Well, both of which are 5-7 bucks more than a 15384 accent. I'm not even gonna start on the price of an Apollo or Big Bang from Unique (sorry Joey).

Then, if you consider the fact that MR16 bulbs are HALF the price of a PAR bulb, the argument for people using PARs for a market penetration strategy goes out the window.

Not that I'm advocating PARs or anything :drinkup:


:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

:drinkup:

bmwsmity
10-15-2007, 08:13 PM
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

:drinkup:

hey, not saying that they aren't worth the cost! :clapping:

JoeyD
10-15-2007, 08:41 PM
hey, not saying that they aren't worth the cost! :clapping:

Good save!! LOL

Eden Lights
10-15-2007, 08:45 PM
Pars

Out of the top 5-10 most respected lighting people, who uses or specs pars as their to go to lamp? Jan Moyer? Greg Yale? Tom Williams? Randall White? Naomi Miller? Nate Mullen? Lew Waltz? Pars are popular and have market share because of price. Yes the Hadco Il is about the same price as a 15384, but your comparing one of the best Pars to one of the lease expensive MR fixtures and I will say I wouldn't trade one 15384 for one IL.

Par's

Get kicked over-Wells
Are big and Ugly
Lamps are expensive when you consider their very poor quality.
Very limited low wattage lamp choices.
Par lamp holders don't hold adjustments well. (Except the bigbang, how many of those have you guys installed?)
Collect Debris
Catch Fire
Glare free fixtures clip the photometrics very badley.
Did I say Big and ugly?

YardPro
10-15-2007, 09:20 PM
i also am in the don't know crap area.
i do not like par's as much as mr's...
it could be availability, but with all the wattage and spread choices in the mr line, i cannot imagine having more flexibility in a par line.

the par light is really nothing more than an automotive light.

we only do about $60-70K/year in lighting, so it is not our primary company focus, so i very will may be out of my league on this argument, but i do not like the par's.

JoeyD
10-15-2007, 09:26 PM
Dang Eddie, did the Par do something to you? You sound like your about to go postal on one! LOL

I feel the same way about aluminum pathlights!

But seriously you obviously do just fine without them but dont discourage others from finding out for themselves.

There has to be just as many supporters of good PAR 36 lamps and "Big Bulky" recessed lights....for the record I have never hurt myself on a well light nor has my toe ever suffured from one, I cannot say the same for the Big Bang. If you dont watch out that light could jump up out of the ground and kick your @%$!! If a well light is Danny DeVito, the Big Bang is Arnold!

But for as many people who dislike the lamp there are just as many who like and use it.

Joey D.
Supporter of the GE Par36!!

Eden Lights
10-15-2007, 09:30 PM
Ok, I think I voiced my opinion on this topic enough and I am ready to leave this alone. I would like to leave you with one thought or a couple of pics that I share with people from time to time. If it was your house which fixture and photometrics would you chose? This is a unedited pic 15384 MR 20W40 degree lamp w/OSL vs. A Hadco well with a GE Par36 20W Flood. Same setback, same voltage, same everything. Many people consider the 15384 a very clipping fixture also. Which would you chose, I hope all my competitors keep using the par fixture and lamp!

JoeyD
10-15-2007, 10:04 PM
Eddie you got to come better than that. That was like comparing a Turd to a Sunset.

That well Light is hideous and would never sit up out of the ground. And who would light a sided plain white wall like that anyway with a well. I mean you could but ofcourse the bullet will win out there.

But I appreciate your fire!!!!!!

Eden Lights
10-15-2007, 10:21 PM
That well Light is hideous and would never sit up out of the ground.

Joey, the lamps are the same distance from the ground. I can bury that well down to China, but it wont look any different on the wall.

And who would light a sided plain white wall like that anyway with a well.

The wall is brown and is a excellent place for me to look at fixture and lamp photometrics. Brick, Stucco, Stone, it would look the same on anything. Tell me what to order with a par in it from Unique and I will buy one tomorrow and put it up on the wall? If you are suggesting a bi-pin flood, let me know which unit and we can compare it to say a KIM KLV215 on the wall?

I mean you could but ofcourse the bullet will win out there.

Thanks Joey - 1 vote MR and 0 votes for the PAR.

I knew I liked you!

JoeyD
10-15-2007, 10:23 PM
this ist over.........................

bmwsmity
10-15-2007, 10:30 PM
Eddie you got to come better than that. That was like comparing a Turd to a Sunset.


holy crap, thats a good one joey! :laugh:

actually, eddie, some customers LOVE LOVE LOVE the way PARs cast light in the way you illustrated. i had a builder that became almost belligerent when i used an MR instead of his beloved PAR. this dude LOVED the vast array of PAR lights that delivered an almost prison-yard amount of light all over the front of his personal home (note: this was done by another contractor).

after trying to explain my selection of fixture via photometric data, i finally capitulated and swapped some of the lights out for wells when i got the hint that he only wanted PARs.

i personally prefer MR photometrics over PAR, however, I reiterate that it isn't about what us "pros" think looks good, its what the customer - you know, the one who pays us - thinks looks good.

as much as it hurts to go against our own ideas of beauty, sometimes that's exactly what we must do. maybe i'm just old fashioned?

pete scalia
10-15-2007, 10:42 PM
Pete says.... MR's are unfortunately the workhorse of outdoor lighting. The good things I can say is they are small which results in a small fixture, easy to add lenses and they are powerful with many wattages and beamspreads. They do not have a good wide flood when placed within a fixture. They require deep shielding or they are a glare bomb. Deep shielding cuts off the lamp spread which in return makes the lamp spotty (yes I know correction lenses)

As discussed before there is only 1 good PAR lamp which severely limits it's application. I have found that particular lamp to last longer on average than MR's and be more durable. Furthermore it has it's own lens which gets changed with the bulb supposing your not using a lensed fixture.

I wouldn't pigeon hole a contractor who uses this lamp as any less of an installer for using it. That just isn't fair. Using only one lamp on a project may or may not be the right thing to do depending upon that particular project. I do though consider the use of bayonet lamps the sign of an amatuer . Especially those path lights pointed down with no lens (tulips). That lamp has questionable life to begin with and when it's hit with water it seperates from the brass shell and hangs like an orphaned testicle.

JoeyD
10-15-2007, 10:49 PM
LOL.................It's like a comedy show tonight! That was one of the funniest descriptions ever!!!! LOL

"That lamp has questionable life to begin with and when it's hit with water it seperates from the brass shell and hangs like an orphaned testicle"
Pete Scalia On Bayonet Lamps / Tail Lights

Eden Lights
10-15-2007, 10:56 PM
I love you guys, but man this place is costing me money and a lot of sleep!

pete scalia
10-15-2007, 11:12 PM
LOL.................It's like a comedy show tonight! That was one of the funniest descriptions ever!!!! LOL

"That lamp has questionable life to begin with and when it's hit with water it seperates from the brass shell and hangs like an orphaned testicle"
Pete Scalia On Bayonet Lamps / Tail Lights
If not an orphaned then a descended one at the very least. But you get the picture.

JoeyD
10-15-2007, 11:13 PM
Unfortunatly I do............LOL

extlights
10-16-2007, 01:14 AM
I've never seen a Hadco well light like that before....it looks more like something that OLP uses...either PM or B&B....unless it's an old Hadco? Anyway...I think people have their own ways of design. Nothing bugs me more than seeing a home lit up with all MR16's...or even all PAR's for that matter. It shows a complete lack in design skills in my opinion, or they just wanted to get the job and get out without spending much thought on it. Again..to each their own...as long as the customer is happy.

I'm definately the minority here. I don't like using MR's on the facade of the home (unless down lighting of course). A lot of it will depend on window placement however, the height and pitch of the peaks, the grading going up to the home, and whether the home is sided, stucco, or brick...plus many other factors. The same can go with trees...what kind of tree, what size is the tree, what you are trying to emphasize on the tree..etc. I don't think there is a good solid answer to which fixture/bulb is better just because it can be easily said that each bulb has it's place.

Eden Lights
10-16-2007, 02:25 AM
I've never seen a Hadco well light like that before....it looks more like something that OLP uses...either PM or B&B....unless it's an old Hadco? Anyway...I think people have their own ways of design. Nothing bugs me more than seeing a home lit up with all MR16's...or even all PAR's for that matter. It shows a complete lack in design skills in my opinion, or they just wanted to get the job and get out without spending much thought on it. Again..to each their own...as long as the customer is happy.

I'm definitely the minority here. I don't like using MR's on the facade of the home (unless down lighting of course). A lot of it will depend on window placement however, the height and pitch of the peaks, the grading going up to the home, and whether the home is sided, stucco, or brick...plus many other factors. The same can go with trees...what kind of tree, what size is the tree, what you are trying to emphasize on the tree..etc. I don't think there is a good solid answer to which fixture/bulb is better just because it can be easily said that each bulb has it's place.

Fixture in the picture with the 384 is a old B&B or OLP, same company. The fixture in the night time comparison shot is a brand new Hadco unit.

JoeyD
10-16-2007, 11:30 AM
"Nothing bugs me more than seeing a home lit up with all MR16's...or even all PAR's for that matter. It shows a complete lack in design skills in my opinion, or they just wanted to get the job and get out without spending much thought on it."


I couldnt have agreed more here Dave. The Par has it's place in lighting design weather Eden is willing to admit or not.
Why hate the only lamp (that I know of) that was designed for landscape lighting. We should embrace it!!

I still respect you Eddie! We shall agree to disagree here!

JoeyD
10-16-2007, 12:51 PM
So does the Par 36 Lamp not work well here? Would this look better with MR lamps?


http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/IMG_8096.jpg

NightScenes
10-16-2007, 01:07 PM
Joey, Joey, Joey, PAR lights were designed for tractors, not landscape lighting.

JoeyD
10-16-2007, 01:24 PM
That may have been true in the past but not the lamps we are using today. They are strictly designed for Landscape Lighting.

I'm gonna sick Nate on all of you.............LOL

Eden Lights
10-16-2007, 03:51 PM
So does the Par 36 Lamp not work well here? Would this look better with MR lamps?


http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/IMG_8096.jpg

Joey, that is a outstanding picture. I could not achieve that evenness of luminance nor smoothness ever. If that picture is unedited the designer/installer is outstanding. Edited or not it still is a world class job!

JoeyD
10-16-2007, 04:04 PM
Thanks Eddie!! Here is whats crazy. This job was done by Glen Nyhuis, one of our North East sales reps. He did this with a demo kit!! Obviously the contractor he assited installed it but Glen did this design and took this photo the night of the demo. Pretty unbelieveable. This is all Par36 35w WFL's in Unique well lights. Mainly F125 BK fixtures w/ no grates. I am sure they installed Apollo's w/ frosted or clear lenses.

JoeyD
11-20-2007, 05:46 PM
Nate finally was able to chime in on this topic. He read it months ago and typed it up while on vacation. He finally posted today. Check it out!!

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=207072

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
11-20-2007, 08:21 PM
The only bones of contention I read in that post were:

1: Nate says the MR16 was developed for interior track light applications. As far as I am aware, the first and exclusive use of MR16 lamps was with Nightscaping for use in their Landscape Lighting fixtures. Lets not try to re-write history here.

2: Nate thinks that the Ushio MR16 is equivalent and built to the same standard as the GE Constant Colour MR16. I would have to disagree there. I find that the Ushio lamps tend to perform more like an aluminized MR16 rather then a Dichroic MR16. The Ushio mirror surface breaks down with age ( I have one here and the parabolic reflector is completely clear glass, all the reflector has disintegrated) This is not the case with the GE Constant Colour Lamp. The only lamp I have found that comes close to emulating the quality of the GE is the Sylvania Titan series, but they have dropped a large number of the various wattages and beam spreads from their catalog.

Have a great day.

The Lighting Geek
11-20-2007, 09:27 PM
The MR16 lamp was introduced by General Electric in 1975. It was developed in response to a need for a compact low voltage light source with precise optical control. MR stands for "Mirrored Reflector."

At the time, the intended use was for overhead projectors and microfiche readers. However it was soon adopted for use in a myriad of other applications. This was because of the combination of small size, precisely controlled beam, and quality of light.

I did not find any reference to Nightscaping, although Bill Locklin made use of the bulbs long after their developement.

The Lighting Geek
11-20-2007, 09:31 PM
I used Nightscaping in 1982 and their primary uplight was the powerlighter which used a LO4414 tractor work light.

pete scalia
11-20-2007, 09:58 PM
Tommy thanks for the dose of sanity. Talk about re-writing history. Saying that Bill Locklin was the first to use MR-16 lamps exclusively. maybe in outdoor lights although that is debatable. What a fountain of misinformation that gets dispensed on this message board. You'll get one guy who states something off the wall and you'll find his buddy who will back him. I am amazed.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
11-20-2007, 10:13 PM
You know "Pete", if you are really truly amazed and upset by what you read here, you can always choose not to participate. Seeing as many of your postings are nothing more then derogatory comments aimed at others, I am quite sure much of your participation here would not be missed at all.

Read my post again, CAREFULLY this time. I clearly stated "as far as I am aware".

Eden Lights
11-20-2007, 10:18 PM
Edited Deleted

pete scalia
11-20-2007, 10:28 PM
You know "Pete", if you are really truly amazed and upset by what you read here, you can always choose not to participate. Seeing as many of your postings are nothing more then derogatory comments aimed at others, I am quite sure much of your participation here would not be missed at all.

Read my post again, CAREFULLY this time. I clearly stated "as far as I am aware".

Cut it out you are full of it and quit using your weasel clauses every time you are called out for your poor information. I'm more amazed and upset with my fellow Americans here who sit there and take your abuse and laugh and join in.

Eden Lights
11-20-2007, 10:53 PM
Thanks for your post Mr. Mullen and I hope we can discuss the MR vs. Par debate more when time permits after the lighting season and things are back to normal. I would also like to thank you for allowing Joey to spend so much time on the forum, that says a lot for your commitment to our channel.

I would like to have a friendly challenge? 50 of your best Halogen 20W Pars against 50 Halogen GE Constant Color Precise 20W MR's. Test to conducted by a non-biased party under the same conditions. First set to lose 25 Lamps is the loser. If it is the MR, I will fly to Cali and take you and Joey out for a steak. Game On?

Chris J
11-20-2007, 10:59 PM
Thanks for your post Mr. Mullen and I hope we can discuss the MR vs. Par debate more when time permits after the lighting season and things are back to normal. I would also like to thank you for allowing Joey to spend so much time on the forum, that says a lot for your commitment to our channel.

I would like to have a friendly challenge? 50 of your best Halogen 20W Pars against 50 Halogen GE Constant Color Precise 20W MR's. Test to conducted by a non-biased party under the same conditions. First set to lose 25 Lamps is the loser. If it is the MR, I will fly to Cali and take you and Joey out for a steak. Game On?

Never mind, I don't want to enter this.

ChampionLS
11-20-2007, 11:20 PM
Has anyone experimented or used a 12VAC Compact Fluorescent MR-16? The light output is comparable to a 50 watt halogen, but only consumes 5watts of energy. Light output is warm white.

I bought one to run some tests on, but turns out I have a bad lamp. I could see this unit working well in outdoor fixtures, because it will throw off some serious light.

-Anthony

Chris J
11-20-2007, 11:29 PM
Has anyone experimented or used a 12VAC Compact Fluorescent MR-16? The light output is comparable to a 50 watt halogen, but only consumes 5watts of energy. Light output is warm white.

I bought one to run some tests on, but turns out I have a bad lamp. I could see this unit working well in outdoor fixtures, because it will throw off some serious light.

-Anthony

Never seen a flo that gives a great deal to be desired in effect or manipulation for the architectural side of landscape lighting. The fact that the one you have turned out bad might raise an eye brow? What is the color temp?

ChampionLS
11-20-2007, 11:43 PM
It's 3500K by Feit

Lite4
11-20-2007, 11:48 PM
Eddie, If I were Nate I would only take that bet if the pars were the GE 35 watters. Everybody knows any other par is junk and won't hold up. I would like to see the results of this one though. I often go back and forth on which light to use, but always seem to go with the MR because of the weathertight enclosures. I do like the power of the big pars though.

Chris J
11-21-2007, 12:01 AM
Eddie, If I were Nate I would only take that bet if the pars were the GE 35 watters. Everybody knows any other par is junk and won't hold up. I would like to see the results of this one though. I often go back and forth on which light to use, but always seem to go with the MR because of the weathertight enclosures. I do like the power of the big pars though.

Which leads me to the next question: Why is it that the par lamp is only good, seemingly, in the 36/35watt variety? With the MR, you have choices. With the Par, it seems you are limited to only a certain type/brand and then only to a certain wattage. What is the skinny on that?

pete scalia
11-21-2007, 12:10 AM
Those that leave the 35/36 watt PAR floods out of their designs when they could clearly have a place because of an unfounded bias are doing their customers and themselves a disservice.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
11-21-2007, 01:14 AM
Has anyone experimented or used a 12VAC Compact Fluorescent MR-16? The light output is comparable to a 50 watt halogen, but only consumes 5watts of energy. Light output is warm white.

I bought one to run some tests on, but turns out I have a bad lamp. I could see this unit working well in outdoor fixtures, because it will throw off some serious light.

-Anthony

Hi Anthony. I have never seen a CF in a MR16 Format. How very interesting! Is it the exact format and size of an MR16? 50mm dia? GU5.3 Pins?

I have experimented with a 12Vac Bi-Pin CF that Nightscaping uses in a couple of its newer fixtures. I found the light output to be adequate for soft flood lighting techniques but the lamp itself is quite large. There was also some concern about the CF lamp's ability to perform/start in cold climates.

Do you have more information on the lamp that you showed us here? I would appreciate a spec. sheet or a link to their website for more info.

Thanks and have a great day.

JoeyD
11-21-2007, 10:33 AM
You know "Pete", if you are really truly amazed and upset by what you read here, you can always choose not to participate. Seeing as many of your postings are nothing more then derogatory comments aimed at others, I am quite sure much of your participation here would not be missed at all.

Read my post again, CAREFULLY this time. I clearly stated "as far as I am aware".


James you should be careful how you word things. We know your committed to Bill Locklin and that is ok but to use an open ended statement "as far as I am aware" and then finish it with "Lets not re write history" it is pretty clear what you are trying to imply. I mean what side of the fence are you on here. Do you know the facts? IF so then you can call Nate out, but if you are not aware then why challenget his facts? Contrary to what you may think Nightscaping did not invent and introduce everything Low Voltage and the MR 16 is one of them.

As for the process Ushio uses why not contact Ushio yourself and speak to an engineer and hear for yourself their process of making an MR 16 specifficly their Eurostar. I would ba happy to share a few phone numbers for you to call should you try and gather this information. You may PM me.

Joey D.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
11-21-2007, 10:56 AM
Thanks Joey, I have used enough Ushio MR16 lamps to see the difference in performace first hand. I know what works here for me and that is the GE Constant Colour. For the few pennies more they are very much worth it.

Perhaps it is a climate thing?

JoeyD
11-21-2007, 11:00 AM
Perhaps it is.

extlights
11-22-2007, 12:21 PM
Those that leave the 35/36 watt PAR floods out of their designs when they could clearly have a place because of an unfounded bias are doing their customers and themselves a disservice.

Some may not like what Pete has to say sometimes, but this statement pretty much sums up this entire debate.

A true lighting professional shouldn't knock certain lamps simply because they don't like them. As a lighting designer all of us need to know what lamps and fixtures work best for certain applications and affects. If you are stuck on only 1 or 2 certain fixtures or lamps, then your next competitor that utilizes all different facets of fixtures and lamps will blow right by you and start diminishing your market place.

ChampionLS
11-25-2007, 04:42 AM
I returned the defective lamp and bought a new one today. Ahh this one works. At first, it didn't seem too bright.. but after 2 or 3 minutes, it gets much brighter. I wouldn't say it's a direct replacement for a incandescent 50 watt MR-16 though. I feel the output in lumens is equivalent to a MR-11 or about a 10 watt wedge base lamp. The unit gets a little warm...enough to melt snow, but not hot. Below is an actual photo of the unit and packaging header card.

Still not a lot of light for landscaping purposes, but enough for a boat, camper or mobile home.

pete scalia
11-25-2007, 10:57 PM
Some may not like what Pete has to say sometimes, but this statement pretty much sums up this entire debate.

A true lighting professional shouldn't knock certain lamps simply because they don't like them. As a lighting designer all of us need to know what lamps and fixtures work best for certain applications and affects. If you are stuck on only 1 or 2 certain fixtures or lamps, then your next competitor that utilizes all different facets of fixtures and lamps will blow right by you and start diminishing your market place.

I agree with this evaluation.