why not

[V.H. lass]

:confused: I haven't been here on this site for to long but from what I am reading. People are not willing to give out information on how much to bid on residential or commercial prices. I also notice that when someone new to the biz ( like my self ) ask how much do you charge? the replys are short and evasive at best. No one wants to tell the other guy how much he is charging for his work. My question is why is this. I would think that we all would want our prices to be around the same to make the industry standard high and more professional

[kutnkru]

Many of us who have been here for at least a year and those who have been here for longer than myself have usally 2-3 times discussed how they bid or charge for services.

There have been so many repeat questions about the same thing that many have just resorted to telling people to do a search. If members would just do the search first, or bring up their questions in another thread that pertains to what they have not found they would find a better response.

I dont think its about being defiant, evasive or rude. But tell me honestly, how many times would you answer the same EXACT question before you got tired of people being too lazy to look up the answers to what has alreadyt been beat to death usually time and time again.

]http://www.gifs.net/animate/welcome2.gif
TO
http://www.elmlawnsite.com/lawnsite.jpg

Dont be afraid to look up your questions first, thats what Chuck has requested before you start a thread. Then if you dont find what your looking for, just mention that you havent found what your looking for and if you have either overlooked it, someone will post the thread that pertains to your questions, or they will try to help you out as best as they possibly can.

Good Luck with your business this fall, and just be patient and you will see who changes their thoughts and prices from day to day like myself based on moods and who stay pretty much to the hard core textbook facts.

Kris

[MOW ED]

Hi and welcome.

This is quite a topic that gets alot of differing opinions from time to time and I will give you mine.

A fact of this business is that it is not a McDonalds type operation.
If you check you will see that some people in your area charge x amount to do a certain service and some charge y as well as some charging z. The cost of materials is relatively close from area to area but there still is some difference. Everyone has their own method of pricing that is typical for their area. If you are too high you won't work, if you are too low you will work for a while until you find out that you are not making any money so obviously the key would be to work and make a profit but don't be greedy.

It is not fair for me to tell you that I get so much per mow or so much for laying mulch or so much to fertilize because you might use these numbers and expect to get that amount or that amount might be too low for your region.

At times we will give out a price but I try and make sure tell that this is what I make for my market.

I don't think standardizing the pay rate would do anyone any good because there are places where other variables come to play. The LCO's that live in California have a higher cost of living than the LCO's in central Wisconsin, thats a fact.

You have to research YOUR market and see what it will bear. You must know your cost of doing business and know how to price from there. If anyone on this board gives you a price for something you have to be aware that it is for there market and it is not necessarly going to work for you.

Remember, its your business.

Good Luck

[1grnlwn]

Price comes up in a lot of threads. Some even give secrets. There are so many variables it is hard to compair.
1. Location (this is a big one)
2. What will market accept (tied to #1)
3. Density of competition. On Sat. morning is there a traffic jam of rusty pickups pulling tilt trailers containing riders ranging from $500-$9567.99.
4. Your confidence in your work to boldly submit a price that you would never pay someone else to do your yard.
5. How much $ do you have in equip (fixed costs)

There are many more.

Started with dixon 42 com. & trim HH blower $32 an Hour

Currently using 61" Ferris $45-$50/Hr.
I have had jobs that grossed $25/hr to jobs that grossed$75/hr
Most of the 25s have been canceled. You are able to do this once you get to the point where the phone rings and you tell the person I am sorry but I'm swamped. Thats when you can confortably start raising your prices and your minimums.

OH
6. Wife's Job

Just remember. Not many people start this business with a 22 ft trailer $30000 of equip. charging $50/Hr. and $45 minimums. You have to work up to it. Look around and do your homework. Ask question and don't believe everything you are told.:cool:

[Randy Scott]

MOW ED is right on the money. Also, if you prepared a small business plan that would let you know your expenses, you will have the numbers you need. There would be no need to ask others what they are charging. It's great for us to compare our prices and discuss it here, but to just ask for numbers is foolish. That's the problem with this business, everyone goes into it half-cocked. They buy a mower and boom, they got a business. Only problem is they don't know what it takes to actually run a business. I am not implying you are this type of person, but you should know most of the prices you need before you even start cutting a blade of grass.
There is no way we are all going to get on the same page as everyone is with pricing.

[Dochere]

I'm with MOW ED on this one.


It's up to every contractor out there to decide what his time is worth on an hourly basis. The people on this site are not business consultants, plan managers, etc. They are volunteering their knowledge. A broad question like "what to charge" is way to time consuming for anyone here to answer. If you want a general range that is acceptable per man hour, many will be between $35 & $50 for lawn maintenance. Some higher, some maybe even lower. Other aspects will command allot more.


A more valid question would be if you have decided on a hourly base and have customers but find that you are not hitting your expectations. With the right input from you, many here would then be happy to help analyze your situation, and offer there .02.

This is my .02

[Guido]

Its not helping you any, it can only hurt you. If I tell you to charge $25.00 an hour for a certain service, and I work out of my mother's station wagon, don't pay taxes, and don't own or maintain any of my own equipment, my price could hurt you. So I have 25 cents overhead every month and you have $xx.xx. We'll oth come out with a different profit (mine would be better of course, where as you could actually use money).

When people asks questions on here on "how much to charge for ..xyz service" I usually break the job down for them and estimate how long it should take them (if they provided what equipment they would be using) and let them decide how much they want to make.

Basically there are only 4 things that go into a final price if you want to keep it simple:

1. DIRECT material costs (anything you use for this job and only this job.....i.e. mulch, potting soil, flowers, tree stakes, fertilizer)

2. INDIRECT job costs A.K.A. overhead recovery (You have to factor in to get paid for your phone bill, internet service, utilities and rent for shop if applicable, fuel costs, equipment and maintenance, etc)

3. Labor (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH PROFIT!!!
Your pay and anyone's that works for you......YES, you should be paying yourself!!)

4. Profit (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH YOUR PAY!!, its what the business makes after everyone else is take care of)

Hope this helps some.....I know it doesn't really answer your question, but it kinda does. Basically what I'm trying to say, is I can tell you what I charge, but it doesn't really matter to you (and it shouldn't). I know some people don't post stuff like that because they are in a competitive market where their actual local competitors come on here and can know what they're charging on an account they may want to underbid them on, etc.

Theres a million reasons....the only thing I can tell you is not to let it bother you because you can figure out your own price to make sure your getting paid and making a profit!!


Hope this helps!

[kutnkru]

Originally posted by guido
I know some people don't post stuff like that because they are in a competitive market where their actual local competitors come on here and can know what they're charging on an account they may want to underbid them on, etc.To add to Dave's valid point, if you see somone who posts alot of knowledge about the different aspects of this industry but strays from the public posting of prices you can also try to send them an e-mail or private meassge "pm".

I have asked some on here this way and although they may not directly give me their pricing structure for say Hydro-Seeding a 25m/sf lot, they can give me a formula with other figures that still add up the same way so that I can see and figure other quotes out as well using my own figures.

Hope this helps.
Kris

[Lawn-Scapes]

You have to research YOUR market and see what it will bear.

And how would you go about this?

I don't think standardizing the pay rate would do anyone any good because there are places where other variables come to play.

I disagree to some extent... I agree that the cost of living does vary across the nation but not to an extreme that a standard could not be accomplished. I think it should be based on X amount of dollars per 1000 square feet with a set minimum. Then add in for line trimming and degree of difficulty.

I think this would help industry weed out lowballers and make it more competitive based on performance rather than price.

I'm so sick of reading "what ever you think you are worth per man hour". Or "figure how long it will take you and charge 'X' per man hour". Everyone works at a different pace and uses different equipment.

Let's say you have two identical 1 acre properties... Jim has a 36" walk behind and it takes him 1.25 hours to finish and Bob has a 60" Z and he's done in .75 hours. Both feel thier time is worth $1 per minute. Should Bob make less per property because he has better equipment and is more efficient?

I think there shoud be a Landscapers labor/hour rate book...

[Butchs Lawn]

I also agree with mow ed! every state has different types climate type grasses etc....getting to know your local competion prices is the best way to compete. i would feel kind silly telling a customer i have to charge him x amount dollars because my competion in other states is getting that much.:D to those responsible/we're coming for you

[MOW ED]

TSG,

I disagree to some extent... I agree that the cost of living does vary across the nation but not to an extreme that a standard could not be accomplished. I think it should be based on X amount of dollars per 1000 square feet with a set minimum. Then add in for line trimming and degree of difficulty.

How would you enforce this standardized minimum?

The whole principal of Freedom is based on an open market. You know that you do not get "standard" work from all aspects of this business.

Why would you want to standardize a pricing structure? How would you promote your business? What incentive do you have to do better or what enforcement would you use if a company didn't live up to a standard?

I may be misreading your opinion but I do respect it? Please tell me more.

BTW Thanks Guys for the support!!

[Lawn-Scapes]

How would you enforce this standardized minimum?

I don't know?

The whole principal of Freedom is based on an open market. You know that you do not get "standard" work from all aspects of this business.

This is true. You have sub-standard, standard and above. I think I do above standard work and try to get the best dollars I can for my work... but when you have 'XYZ Lawn Service' doing standard or maybe substandard work and charging considerably less than you are - 1) it keeps you from getting max. dollars from your client (potetial client) or 2) his customer comes over to get a quote from me and says "I'm only paying this much... thanks anyway".

How would you promote your business? What incentive do you have to do better or what enforcement would you use if a company didn't live up to a standard?

You'ld promote your business on quality work. The incentive will be that quality work usually results in lots of referrals. Enforcement... Oh I don't know... get a couple of fellow LCOs and take 'em behind the shed ;)

I may be misreading your opinion but I do respect it? Please tell me more.

Thank you for the respect. I wasn't disrespecting your opinion I was just using it to base my thoughts.

Here's the more you ask for...

I think maybe my immediate market here is ruined. When I walk up to a potential client ($500-$750k home) on 2 acres and quote them $100-$120 and they say "I'll get back to you" or "I'm paying $75-$90... can you do it for that?".

Frustration... This is the reasoning behind my comments.

[kutnkru]

Originally posted by MOW ED
... Why would you want to standardize a pricing structure?I dont think that its about standardizing a pricing structure but educating other contractors as to what the market will bear so that they are not losing money by cutting $45 accounts for $18/cut.


How would you promote your business? I would promote my business by continueing to do business as I do now. The quality of LCOs will not change just as when we drive thru neighborhoods now you can tell who does not do it all, and who puts forth that extra effort to keep their name recognized.


What incentive do you have to do better?Company growth.


What enforcement would you use if a company didn't live up to a standard.This is something that would be dealt with by the clientele. If we could not meet/exceed their needs they would surely find another who could. Comapnies who couldnt meet the muster, would eventually work themselves out of the market.

Just my .02
Kris

[cantoo]

TSG, how long does it take you to cut that 2 acre property? Some guys here are saying up to 5 acres per hour with their machines, maybe $75-$90 is enough? Of course I don't believe everything I read though.

[Lawn-Scapes]

Companies who couldn't meet the muster, would eventually work themselves out of the market.

They would certainly be out quicker if there was more of standard pricing... but because there isn't, people will tolerate substandard work.

[Lawn-Scapes]

cantoo,

It costs you more money for bigger and faster mowers... doesn't it?

Did you miss my point...

I think pricing should be based on size (with a minimum) not time...

[HOMER]

Buy a real fast mower, work real fast, do excellent work, charge as much as you can...........................leave happy.

If you feel good when you leave then you did well, if you feel like you screwed yourself like many of us have and will do again then you learn from it and move on. DO NOT LOWBALL JUST TO GET THE JOB, everyone suffers when you do that. Start high and negotiate if you need to, if they don't want to pay your price then let somebody else do it.

Unless you charge everything by the hour your going to have to make your money by being efficient.

Everybody gave you good info, it's a trial and error business that takes time to learn.

[kris]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TSG
[B]
I disagree to some extent... I agree that the cost of living does vary across the nation but not to an extreme that a standard could not be accomplished.
I'm so sick of reading "what ever you think you are worth per man hour".


TSG

I beg to differ... I know there is a huge diff. in cost of living.

What don't you get about Daves(guido) post? ... Everyones costs of doing business are differant.

[MOW ED]

We went from why nobody gives pricing info to having a discussion on how to standardize pricing and I have to say I'm part responsible so lets continue.

I hope that nobody gets the wrong idea of my pricing so let me tell you that I am high for my area and I have lost plenty of jobs to lowballers. I just lost a huge spraying bid to a lowballer. I refuse to lower my price to get a job.

Did I ever do this? Yes I did, when I first started out I had a very basic idea of what to charge and I did figure my costs, overhead ect. but I wanted to work and took some jobs that I found were not profitable. I had no resource like Lawnsite and I really had no experience in the field. In retrospect my costs were not that great because I started out with homeowner grade equipment for lack of funds and an uncertainty of potential market conditions. When my business expanded because of the quality of my work I borrowed money and became commercial!
I did regret taking those low payers but I learned the hard way and thats why I like coming here. Hopefully some new LCO will read this and learn. If we can educate then we can all make money.

TSG, I completely understand how you feel with a market saturated by lowballers and I am on your side. I do my part in my market to take jobs at MY price and I don't want customers that are looking for the lowest price. My best customers are my core weekly accounts that I have had for many years. I have washed some of them out (the low payers) and now the good remain. I sell many add-ons to them at my price and there is no bickering because they know the work is high quality and the results always reflect that.

In response to that they have been quite gracious and have given me many good referrals that has increased my growth, so you see it is a great upward spiral for me.

I personally have learned that I can take what I have and charge a premium price for it as long as I consistently deliver a service that is deserving of this price.

I will end here and refer you to a thread from Ray Kirby back in 2000. I made a copy of this and use it. There is plenty of discussion about this very topic. It is extremely relevant and I think we can learn from it. Good Luck.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=177&highlight=why+i+really+cost+more+than+others

[Lawn-Scapes]

Mow Ed,

Actually we did stay on topic:

I would think that we all would want our prices to be around the same to make the industry standard high and more professional

Thanks for the feedback.

What don't you get about Daves(guido) post? ... Everyones costs of doing business are differant.

kris,

You have a used 60" Z, a used pick-up and so on... I have a brand new 60" Z and a brand new pick-up. We both walk up to a job (worth $50) to give an estimate. We both can get it done in the same amount of time and same quality work. Should you charge less money ($10-15) on that account because you are the thrifty shopper?

In this business your income should be based on productivity and quality of work... not how little can you spend and how low can you bid.

[summitgroundskeeping]

it's because, it's too hard to give a bid without seeing the job site. And it depends on how much it would cost you to do a job compared to them. For me to landscape large comm jobs, I would have to charge way more than a larger LCO in my area, but to mow small to larger-medium lawns, you can't touch me, you know? It just depends.

[kris]

There is alot more to consider in your example.

Demographics for one play a huge part. Try charging the same amount for a lawn in San Francisco as you do in .... Idaho.

If my overhead is much lower than someone else ... I may be able to charge less and still make more "profit" than the other guy.

For the record...ours(overhead) is high.
Maintenance ( 2nd season ) makes up about 1/10 of our business. The rest is Landscape constuction. If you factored in the greenhouse business you would probably be around 1/50. We also pay more per hour than many other maintenance companys.

We find it hard to compete, but I must say that we showed a profit in the first year of the maintenance division. This year's figures are not complete but we are on budget to do much better.

We stay away from $20 dollar res. .... instead we concentrate on commercial, where insurance etc keeps some out of the bidding.

We won't stay in this if we don't make a profit.. we stick to our prices and get alot of work because the business has been around for 35 years and people know and trust us to do the job we are being paid for.

I understand your frustrations but this is a free country and people may charge whatever they want.

[Likestomow]

Bidding on commercial property is difficult, weather you are new to the business or experienced. After you have submitted some bids you will have a better feel for what your market will bear. Don't be afraid to place some bids, even if you are not very sure of yourself. In the beginning for me, a friend of mine in the business told me to figure up a price and then add 25% more to it. I thought he was being over zealous, but he was just being practical.

I have been rejected in my bidding far more than I've been successful. When I get rejected, I always try to go back and say, "To help me bid more successfully in the future, would you mind telling me what bid you finally accepted? If they will tell you, and most will, you will have a good example to go by right in your market.

So go ahead and give out some bids, but I'd recommend that if you are going error, error on the high side, not the low side. After a while you will be able to estimate how long a job will take you and what your expenses (if any) might be. Just take time to think it out (imagine yourself doing the work) and look at the property more than once. And don't be afraid to fail! There will always be more opportunities ahead, the Lord willing.

[AltaLawnCare]

I think bidding has to be based on time spent on the job. The smallest yard I cut is the hardest and it takes 2.5 hrs due to the rough terrain and layout. I regretted getting the customer, at first, but they are always looking for other services (mulching, topsoil, overseeding, etc.) so in the long run I think it will work out.
I was lucky, I discussed price with a fellow in my area before I got started, and learned what the "average" was (this was an hourly figure).
Learn the "bottom" in your market, figure out your hourly cost to operate, and start bidding on the high side to get a feel for what your market will bear. It's been my experience that if you get any properties on the "high" side, they are hard to keep.;)