PDA

View Full Version : Irrigation for 2.9 acres


muddstopper
10-04-2007, 03:27 PM
First off, I am not into doing irrigation, but I have been asked to bid a job that will require a irrigation system, which I will sub out if I get the bid. The engineering firm is writing specs for a 4 head system that is supposed to cover 127,000 sqft. About 300ftx350ft +/-. Is irrigating a turf area this size possible with just 4 heads? And if so, what am I looking at as far as a total cost installed for such a system. Nameing head types and brands is going to be greek to me, I just need to know if its doable and a approximate cost for such a system. The actual specs havent been completed so I cant give specific details except the area is appox 300X350 ft and will be basicly flat, and almost square with no obstructions, with maybe a 2 or 3 percent grade (no more than 6%) for drainage. The area will be a grasspave system to use for carshows, bike rallies, ect. A best guess estimate will do for now, until I get a hold of the actual spec sheets, and then I will be looking for a irrigation contractor in/near Western NC to work with to prepare a bid. I am also interested in hearing about alternatives type systems, possible fertigation, that might be a better choice, that I can present to the engineer before he completes the spec.

jimmyburg
10-04-2007, 03:36 PM
is this well or metered water?

muddstopper
10-04-2007, 03:48 PM
It will be city water I am fairly certain. Rec and parks dept.
Engineers suggested heads are four Nelson 100 sprinkler heads .

hoskm01
10-04-2007, 04:50 PM
So from what I am reading on that "Big Gun" head, it requires at least a 2" inlet, thats a lot of water. Does the facility have that kind of capacity? Probably wont be running all 4 at once for that kind of distance. According to the site, the 100 can go up to 380 feet with the right flow and pressure (A LOT). Be interested to see this one in action.

CAPT Stream Rotar
10-04-2007, 04:53 PM
Get some I-90's!!!!!

I'll pay you so I can install them!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wet_Boots
10-04-2007, 05:24 PM
Heads that can shoot water 380 feet are dangerous. Think water cannon. Can you have the heads mounted on towers, so nobody gets hurt? If a 3 acre square was subdivided into smaller squares, one might put a full-circle pop-up rotor in the middle of each smaller square, and minimize head count.

Your best job will use more than four heads.

hoskm01
10-04-2007, 05:39 PM
Why dont you try and upgrade the specs to the 200 model, pull 1210 GPM out your rear through a 4" inlet, out a 1.9" nozzle and shoot it 620 feet.


Holy God, thats a long way.

Mike Leary
10-04-2007, 06:04 PM
Why dont you try and upgrade the specs to the 200 model, pull 1210 GPM out your rear through a 4" inlet, out a 1.9" nozzle and shoot it 620 feet.


Holy God, thats a long way.

I like big water.:laugh:

muddstopper
10-05-2007, 06:12 AM
The ideal I am getting here seems to suggest that a 4 head design is do-able, but maynot the best ideal. I know the engineer did mention the customer having their own reservations about such a design.

Talk to me guys, this is going to be around a 1/2mil dollar project, irrigation is just a small part of the cost, what irrigation system will work the best. ( and I need ball park figures as to cost) I visited the site yesterday, its flat and wide open and inside a fence, but sees about 30 shows, fairs, expos, ect a year, starting the 3rd week in April. Water is not a problem, city water, city park.

BrandonV
10-05-2007, 07:56 AM
you defiantly could do the project with the I-90s or from what I've read a I-60 might be more inline with normal city water pressure. you really have a lot of options depending on what kind of pressure you have and how comfortable they'd be with 4 big heads out there. the only problem I see with the four head approach besides the ~80-100psi requirement is I'd be wary of leaving them unatended in a park. most golf courses have someone watching when they turn the guns on, but if the city isn't going to do that it'd be a liability for them. just imagine all the drunks and whatnot that might get blasted in the early morning hours. and also think of the theft factor, once you get these installed captnrotor is going to be lurching in the woods to fulfill his quest

Kiril
10-05-2007, 08:02 AM
you defiantly could do the project with the I-90s or from what I've read a I-60 might be more inline with normal city water pressure. you really have a lot of options depending on what kind of pressure you have and how comfortable they'd be with 4 big heads out there. the only problem I see with the four head approach besides the ~80-100psi requirement is I'd be wary of leaving them unatended in a park. most golf courses have someone watching when they turn the guns on, but if the city isn't going to do that it'd be a liability for them. just imagine all the drunks and whatnot that might get blasted in the early morning hours. and also think of the theft factor, once you get these installed captnrotor is going to be lurching in the woods to fulfill his quest

I would agree. Size down, avoid liability, get better coverage.

hoskm01
10-05-2007, 09:22 AM
I definetly dont think you would get great coverage with those cannons. Im a RB kind of fella, so I would look at the 8005 or 115E since you should have the supply there. I would love to see those in action.

FIMCO-MEISTER
10-05-2007, 11:15 AM
you defiantly could do the project with the I-90s or from what I've read a I-60 might be more inline with normal city water pressure. you really have a lot of options depending on what kind of pressure you have and how comfortable they'd be with 4 big heads out there. the only problem I see with the four head approach besides the ~80-100psi requirement is I'd be wary of leaving them unatended in a park. most golf courses have someone watching when they turn the guns on, but if the city isn't going to do that it'd be a liability for them. just imagine all the drunks and whatnot that might get blasted in the early morning hours. and also think of the theft factor, once you get these installed captnrotor is going to be lurching in the woods to fulfill his quest

Maybe Hunter can add a lightning bolt to the I-90 to randomly go off so if any drunks are wacked the lightning bolt scar will throw the blame elsewhere.

BrandonV
10-05-2007, 04:37 PM
or strobe lights... I love flashing lights

BrandonV
10-05-2007, 05:45 PM
oh wanted to add, depending on how far west you are I might be able to help/bid depending on your locale and time frame. but like I said earlier, prices and materials/methods will change based on your hookup and pressure regardless best of luck with the contract

PurpHaze
10-05-2007, 09:57 PM
Possible... well, yes.

Desirable... well... good luck. :)

muddstopper
10-05-2007, 09:58 PM
Nice website Tom, The job is going to be about a 4 hour drive for you. I am not giving out specific locations just yet as this will be a public bid job. I'll Let my competition find out about it in the papers:laugh: If you are interested, let me know and I will send you the specs when I get them.

I am going to pass along everybodies suggestions to the engineer. I would still like to have a ballpark price if someone is bold enough to give one. I am not looking for a price I plan on holding anybody to, just something to use as a baseline as I prepare my bid.

PurpHaze
10-05-2007, 10:16 PM
I would still like to have a ballpark price if someone is bold enough to give one. I am not looking for a price I plan on holding anybody to, just something to use as a baseline as I prepare my bid.

I work large systems and there are just WAY too many variables one of which any breeze is going to take that water being shot that far and put it where you don't want it. (You indicated nothing about GPM/PSI available, whether or not a booster pump is required, etc.) I'd suggest you come up with a design first and go from there. Your best bet for something this large is to contact someone that does golf courses. Just my $.02 but I personally think you're way in over your head.

Kiril
10-06-2007, 10:11 AM
Big guns like that are best left for golf and ag.

PurpHaze
10-06-2007, 10:25 AM
Big guns like that are best left for golf and ag.

I wholeheartedly agree. And even if it was put in and did somewhat of a decent job it seems that there'd be no leeway for future changes. What if the guy puts in a snack bar, garage or showcase area, etc.? I liken this to painting yourself into a corner.

hoskm01
10-06-2007, 10:31 AM
What if the guy puts in a snack bar, garage or showcase area, etc.?




Good cause for a solid roof. Come on, it rains everywhere.

Mike Leary
10-06-2007, 04:09 PM
Big guns like that are best left for golf and ag.

Yass, it is SO cool to be trucking thu Idaho & watching those bad boys
operate! It is odd to have so many threads/posts asking us about "ballpark"
pricing...over the internet! I (& I'm sure a few of you too) can ballpark,
but only on the site with a knowledge of the hydraulics. Where young
contractors get into trouble about the "from the hip" estimate, ,is the client
ALWAYS remembers the number & will hold you to it, no matter what was
discovered when ground was broken. You gotta have some miles on you to
ballpark.:)

Kiril
10-06-2007, 04:13 PM
The safest from the hip ballpark estimate is: material + labor :)

Mike Leary
10-06-2007, 04:18 PM
The safest ballpark from the hip estimate is: material + labor :)

If you can get away with it...mostly I have..did a 165K dual Rain Master 48
T & M. Mostly tho, everybody has a budget & you want to be pretty close.
My joke (& not too funny) is , on new construction,if we can get in before the
hardwood floors go down, we've a better shot. Sadly, it's more common to be
LOSS (last on site sub).:cry:

Kiril
10-06-2007, 04:39 PM
I find once a client is comfortable with you, and more importantly trusts you, they generally don't need an estimate. I've had new clients complain about the first bill, but on following jobs they don't require an estimate nor do they complain about the bill. Doing high quality work opens alot of doors for you. :)

Mike Leary
10-06-2007, 04:44 PM
I find once a client is comfortable with you, and more importantly trusts you, they generally don't need an estimate. I've had new clients complain about the first bill, but on following jobs they don't require an estimate nor do they complain about the bill. Doing high quality work opens alot of doors for you. :)

Ditto....gotta be smart & real..no Eddie Haskells will profit.

PurpHaze
10-07-2007, 11:37 AM
As I've stated before (and many have echoed here) there is no way to design (even in your head) and bid unless you know what GPM/PSI you're dealing with at the POC. THAT will determine what you can do with a system... especially critical on large systems.

Granted, there is another way to do it if a new POC (such as a well) is going to be installed. You can design the whole thing, find your "worse case scenario" sprinkler on the design and then work backwards to establish the GPM/PSI you will need to make that one sprinkler work efficiently. If that one sprinkler will work efficiently then all other sprinklers/zones on the design will properly function. But... there are other factors you need to consider as well such as your weekly "watering window" as this will determine how many zones you will need running simultaneously. On public properties this usually means that you will be limited to night watering so you don't interfere with functions and can somewhat alleviate a great amount of vandalism. You'll need bigger main lines and more GPM/PSI at the POC to accomplish this.

In most smaller system designs you will design to the GPM/PSI availability... not the other way around. Find out what your POC GPM/PSI bank account contains and then figure out how you will spend it by efficiently spreading it across the necessary zones.

muddstopper
10-07-2007, 08:30 PM
As I said when I started this thread, I am not an irrigation guy, dont know squat about them, and have every intention of subbing this part of the project out if I am awarded the bid. I also have no intention of doing other installs on other properties for residential customers. This job is a public bid contract, meaning it goes to low bidder and the winner will be looking for installers. Your reputation as a irrigation profession wont mean squat unless you are also the lowbidder, being a minority also helps. Welcome to the real world of bidding government projects.

For myself, I can figure out a ballpark price on the other aspects of the job in my head and use those numbers to determine if this is a project I fill comfortable doing, meaning staying within acceptable risk ranges. After convinceing myself that this is a job worth pursueing, I will then put together the necessary information needed to comeup with a dollar amount to place on the project. All I am looking for now is a rough estimate as to what this type of irrigation system should cost me, not a precise, detailed, analysis of total cost right down to the last rubber washer. I dont have the spec for the job yet so I aint trying to put my bid together based off any information anyone here might provide. Information obtained here will be passed on the the engineer that is doing the design for the site. Quite frankly, I am getting sick of seeing spec written for materials that have no business being used on particularr projects. Point in case, it seems the Nelson heads might not be the best choice for this project, but thats what the engineer is going with unless someone convinces him differently.

As for the suggestion about being in over my head, maybe so on the irrigation part of it, but with over 30years of experience doing grade, I feel I can handle the rest of the project pretty well. The irrigation is a very, very small $$$part of this project, and the only part I am not licensed for.

True I dont know squat about irrigation, but I know enough to ask for help. I might not know the correct questions to ask, but you guys give me the specifics of what information you need before designing a good system and I will try to provide them for you. I will find out what the gpm/psi is at the site and maybe someone here can provide a ballpark figure.

FIMCO-MEISTER
10-08-2007, 07:26 AM
Ditto....gotta be smart & real..no Eddie Haskells will profit.

My attitude has been if the customers only complaint is the final tally you've done a good job. But if the complain about the bill and workmanship you haven't done your job.

PurpHaze
10-08-2007, 08:34 AM
True I dont know squat about irrigation, but I know enough to ask for help. I might not know the correct questions to ask, but you guys give me the specifics of what information you need before designing a good system and I will try to provide them for you. I will find out what the gpm/psi is at the site and maybe someone here can provide a ballpark figure.

If you can provide the specs that might help. The specs should also indicate the engineered GPM/PSI that they've determined the system will be built off of. Of course... it will also probably have something to the effect that the contractor is responsible for varifying such GPM/PSI putting the onus back on the contractor if it doesn't work right. But, I'm with the owner on this one too in that I can't see why the engineer wants to spec out such large sprinkler cannons.

What type of "engineer" is writing up the specs? If he's not used to irrigation systems then he's going totally off of charts which could cause a problem for the contractor and be totally unreasonable. Like I've said before... the "large cannon" scenario is plausible but maybe not desirable except in an open field ag application. Many ag applications don't filter down right into the landscaping arena even if it's tried and true applications. Maybe you have a trusted sub-contractor that could look at the specs and give you a hand.

Kiril
10-08-2007, 08:51 AM
What he said ^ :)

If you wanted to be on the safe side and follow the engineers recommendations, I suppose you could put in the cannons, as long as you design the system to allow for shorter range rotors if the cannons don't work. Personally I don't think the cannons will work, nor are they advisable in this situation.

BrandonV
10-08-2007, 09:08 AM
does CAPT work from an engineering firm? I could see him specing those cannons

Mike Leary
10-08-2007, 01:56 PM
But, I'm with the owner on this one too in that I can't see why the engineer wants to spec out such large sprinkler cannon Maybe you have a trusted sub-contractor that could look at the specs and give you a hand.

Ditto & ditto. Pics of the site would help, but there is nothing like looking
at the site in person.:)

muddstopper
10-08-2007, 09:08 PM
I had hoped to get pics of the site last week, but when I arived on site there was a county fair going on with all the rides. I will try again this thursday if I can get there before dark.

I havent been able to reach the engineer today so I dont have any more information to provide as to available water.

In my area, I dont know of but one irrigation installer and I am pretty sure this project would be way out of his league. Irrigation just isnt something you see a lot of in my neck of the woods. I think I have only seen about two or three systems total in private lawns and dont know of any commercial systems. I pretty much figure I will have to use someone I havent met or know little about to do this install. I doubt I can find a better source of professionals to ask questions of than what is available on this site. I realize there is no sustitude for standing on site to make a personal assessment, but I cant fly everyone in to get opinions. I'll get a little more information and maybe we can take this to the next level.

FIMCO-MEISTER
10-09-2007, 07:11 AM
What a disaster that would be. An I-90 going off in the middle of a county fair.

PurpHaze
10-09-2007, 08:45 AM
I havent been able to reach the engineer today so I dont have any more information to provide as to available water.


Just out of curiosity... what type of "engineer" is spec-ing out the irrigation part? There are many different types and I'm kinda wondering what experience he has with large irrigation systems. Even many irrigation engineers and landscape architects have no, or limited, trench time to actually know what is feasible on a site project since they work primarily off of charts and theoretical application. Get one of his business cards when you meet as this will most likely give you a hint of what you're dealing with. I'm not slamming him or anything but in my line of work I've seen way too many engineers get over their heads and spec aspects that they have no actual training or personal knowledge in.

Kiril
10-09-2007, 12:03 PM
I'm not slamming him or anything but in my line of work I've seen way too many engineers get over their heads and spec aspects that they have no actual training or personal knowledge in.

This is why I believe every designer/architect/engineer needs to spend a minimum of a year in the "trenches" installing and maintaining landscapes in order to connect the theory with the practice.

Mike Leary
10-09-2007, 02:58 PM
This is why I believe every designer/architect/engineer needs to spend a minimum of a year in the "trenches" installing and maintaining landscapes in order to connect the theory with the practice.

Ditto on that, good buddy. In twenty five years, I've not run into ONE LA or
designer that took hydozones, growth or compatibility into design consideration and application. Because of that, guess who takes the flack when the lavender gets leggy in the hydrangea bed?:dizzy: :hammerhead:

muddstopper
10-09-2007, 07:02 PM
Here is a little more info.

the question was asked, what kind of engineer is writing the spec. I amnot going to name names, but his card says civil engineer and he works for a large associate firm located in Knoxville Tn. I have only know him, thru emails, for about a week, in other words, I dont know him at all. He contacted me about this project.

To get back to the irrigation issues, The engineer is now working with a irrigation consultant out of Charlotte Nc, this should help get the info needed and hopefully get a good working system designed. They will be checking for actual flow and pressure, but I dont think it is going to be an issue. the main water storage tank is located above the park area and pressure reducers are needed to make the pressures more manageable for the hydrants and other consumers.

The type of system speced has to be portable because of fear that large trucks could damage inground heads. That fact alone probably means that the cannons wont accidentaly be turned on when crowds are present. I watched a video of the Nelson 100 heads, I dont think I like the ideal of using them either. Maybe on a corn crop, but not a turf area. To much water, to fast, for proper irrigation is my non-expert opinion.

Final design to be completed sometime next month with bidding to take place Dec. Work to start immediantly, with final completion date, ( mowable turf) by the third week of April. I love moving dirt and planting grass in winter:laugh:

Mike Leary
10-09-2007, 07:06 PM
If you could post some of the design..we'd LOVE to see it!

BrandonV
10-09-2007, 08:44 PM
so they're planning on using an ag style reeled cannon? for turf? i guess that would work a freind who own a sod farm does that but those things are massive, we're taking 25hp pumps out of ponds or are they plumbing them in? either way its a different approach, seems like too much work to me just to water the turf. you wouldn't want to leave them out at night, and you'd have to drag them back out in the morning. anyways more power to ya

PurpHaze
10-09-2007, 09:49 PM
... but his card says civil engineer and he works for a large associate firm located in Knoxville Tn.

To get back to the irrigation issues, The engineer is now working with a irrigation consultant out of Charlotte Nc, this should help get the info needed and hopefully get a good working system designed.

OK... that explains it. Most civil engineers would not have the foggiest idea as to what it takes to get a quality irrigation system up and running. It's good that he's bringing an irrigation consultant into the project.

They will be checking for actual flow and pressure, but I dont think it is going to be an issue. the main water storage tank is located above the park area and pressure reducers are needed to make the pressures more manageable for the hydrants and other consumers.

Hopefully they'll design things correctly so the pipe doesn't come up out of the ground then. :)

The type of system speced has to be portable because of fear that large trucks could damage inground heads. That fact alone probably means that the cannons wont accidentaly be turned on when crowds are present. I watched a video of the Nelson 100 heads, I dont think I like the ideal of using them either. Maybe on a corn crop, but not a turf area. To much water, to fast, for proper irrigation is my non-expert opinion.

They will probably wish they'd done it differently after all is said and done, but hey... it's their dime. There will be a lot of manual work involved to keep the area looking nice. Depending on the actual plot plan there might be a way to design things to alleviate fears of damage from trucks. That's an unknown factor so I guess they'll just have to go with their wishes.

Final design to be completed sometime next month with bidding to take place Dec. Work to start immediantly, with final completion date, ( mowable turf) by the third week of April. I love moving dirt and planting grass in winter:laugh:

I'm getting confused again. Are they going to design the thing and then take bids on the installation or do you have to come up with a design also?

Kiril
10-10-2007, 09:32 AM
Why there are big trucks driving on the turf? By big do you mean pickups, or bigger?

jerryrwm
10-10-2007, 10:51 AM
The grounds are grass pavered. If I understand the use of the property, they are going to be continually using it for shows, fairs, displays, etc. Which means there will be trucks, tractors, tents, pedestrians, and various and sundry service vehicles using the area.

The turf is there to help keep down the dust, and as such probably not looking for athletic field quality turf. Just something to keep dirt and dust to a minimum.

Using the cannons will water the area with a minimum of piping throuhout the property which might become an issue if tents and temporary structures are erected using those 4' steel tent pegs. Also the placement of four watering points can be more closely monitored and barricaded against vehicular damage. They are probably looking at a quick connect on a riser. Basically one step above a manual system as there will necessarily need to be an employee to go out and move the sprinkler. It would only then require one sprinkler with two watering days. Then your water source and piping requirements are simplified - only enough pressure and flow to run one head at a time.

or I could be all wet and they are looking for something more efficient.

I don't see it as a

Kiril
10-10-2007, 01:15 PM
If your going to do it manually, why not use QCV?

jerryrwm
10-10-2007, 04:44 PM
If your going to do it manually, why not use QCV?It is a QCV system with just a lot bigger head. The intent would be to keep the amount of pipe in the field to a minimum as well as the number of connection points. QCV would require a larger pipe grid resulting in increased potential for damage due to staking, as well as damage from larger vehicles running over the QCVs. If there was a county fair, as he stated, they might have had carnival rides and midway tents. All potential problems. With a Nelson Big Gun the pipe lines can be easily marked and no staking allowed in those areas. Also the point of connection for the heads can be easily marked and protected. They are more than likely going to be watering bewteen events so by using one gun and a quick connect which Nelson makes, they can water 1/4 of the area, move it to the next quadrant and so on. It will take three moves of one head.

As I said, it is not a perfect system, but one that will sustain some turf growth and dirt and dust control. It's almost like trying to water a riding arena or watering the access roads and loading area at a sand and gravel quarry. Keep the dust down and complete head to head coverage is not necessary.

Kiril
10-10-2007, 05:29 PM
If the pipe is deep enough, and the QCV's adequately protected, why would there be any problems?

muddstopper
10-10-2007, 06:47 PM
Jerry, the way you explained it is pretty much what the engineer is wanting to do. There are tractor trailer type rigs that will use the paver area. The base is being speced for truck traffic the same as if asphalt was being used to cap the area.

The question was asked if I am designing the project, that answer would be NO. I was contacted about a specific part of the project, but intend on bidding the entire project. The irrigation questions are being asked because I dont have any experience with irrigation systems and needed a little insite as to what is actually involved and an approximate cost of the system. Once the final design is complete I will be meeting with a irrigation professional to work up a more accurate dollar amount. If awarded the contract, I will be subbing the irrigation work.

I am expecting a low number of companies bidding on this project. The grasspavers I am hopeing will probably scare off a few people.

Mike Leary
10-10-2007, 06:56 PM
I am expecting a low number of companies bidding on this project. The grasspavers I am hopeing will probably scare off a few people.

Not a big suprise..the project is only for the hearty of heart. The pavers are
used big time here..I don't have the info here, but a German company makes
the coolest pavers I've seen..will let you know tomorrow. The concrete
"Grasscrete" pavers are junk & labor intensive. I would be hoping the design
for irri would include sleeves thruout.

PurpHaze
10-10-2007, 10:09 PM
I think Jerry is spot on and should design it for the guy. :)

One of our high schools was watered via cannon before an automatic system was put in. It was before my day but older guys tell me it was a real PITA. But... if they can push enough water and pressure to the four valve locations it would work.

muddstopper
10-10-2007, 10:58 PM
I am supposed to meet with a rep of the grass paver company Friday. The product is plastic and comes in 65ft rolls. The hard part looks to be spikeing and snapping it all together. According to the company 2 people can lay 6000 sqft per hour, but after talking to a company that actually lays the pavers that probably isnt realistic. I figure 4 days to lay and fill with sand, crew of six. But thats only if I can get all the sand hauled to site in that lenght of time. The entire project will probably take close to a month, weather permitting. I have been told that this will be the largest grass paver project to date in NC. Dont know if thats true or not. Its 10 time larger than the largest project the company I talked to has laid, but is only 1/3 the size of the paver project at the Houston Astro Dome.

PurpHaze
10-11-2007, 08:39 AM
Post up some pictures of these "pavers" that will be used. I'm curious as to what they look like and wondering if they're more like the "turf cells" pioneered by Purdue (I think) for getting portable natural grass into the Pontiac Silverdome for the World Cup soccer matches many years ago.

muddstopper
10-12-2007, 09:08 AM
here is a link to the grasspave system http://www.invisiblestructures.com/GP2/grasspave.htm.
Regular priceing is $2.25 persqft, of course there is a discount on this size quantity.

Mike Leary
10-12-2007, 03:10 PM
Post up some pictures of these "pavers" that will be used. I'm curious as to what they look like and wondering if they're more like the "turf cells" pioneered by Purdue (I think) for getting portable natural grass into the Pontiac Silverdome for the World Cup soccer matches many years ago.

Whats being used at my site..they come palletized..one man install.
Invented in Germany. http://www.stabiligrid.com www.eco-friendly.info