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View Full Version : Two wire thread.


Mike Leary
10-06-2007, 07:56 PM
O.k, I've kept up on this since Tucor came out..considered it on many
systems..decided to take the traditional path..tons of 13 strand..mainline
stubouts all over..I understand the expansion possibilities w/2 wire..but
something always bothered me about it.....as much as a geek I am, the
decoder/encoder/grounding thing (plus lack of locating..remote issues)
have kept me away..my clients could give a rat..not the point..service IS,
I still don't feel comfy with two wire....seems like we mite be heading down
the proverable "garden path" again.

Kiril
10-07-2007, 02:36 AM
I think I would agree. More stuff to go wrong. Not that it doesn't have worthwhile applications, however I think it needs to mature a bit more before I will buy into it.

BrandonV
10-07-2007, 09:13 AM
i'm on the fence, having installed two so far and everything go super smooth I am a big fan, but I think the cost of the decoders and such really need to come down. like i said in the other thread it was about $100 more per valve, that's bank on a 18+ zone. as far as trouble shooting, I don't think it'll be too big a deal, I'm actually wondering now how my locator will do finding the path, I think I might actually not have to "plug in" but just turn the system on and follow the path that way. I do that w/ invisible fences all the time, just set it to follow the RF signal on the two wire. I'll try it next time I'm near one of mine and report back, that and Joe one of my asst. designer/ right now irrigation install guy (still haven't gotten a reply from el Capitian) makes real good as builts, hes almost too detailed.
-just picking on you rotor

FIMCO-MEISTER
10-07-2007, 09:50 AM
It will NOT wire track. I asked that question at a seminar. Need to consider adding markers than can be found by a metal detector unless you have Hayes documenting your system layout. The only reason to two wire in my opinion is for expansion capability. I'm glad I will be long gone before two wire servicing will be part of my daily trials.

PurpHaze
10-07-2007, 12:12 PM
... that and Joe one of my asst. designer... makes real good as builts, hes almost too detailed.

Joe and I would get along just fine. It's some of the "fine details" such as a gate location or electrical/communication concrete vault that have gotten us out of hot water on many occasions. :)

PurpHaze
10-07-2007, 12:17 PM
Need to consider adding markers than can be found by a metal detector unless you have Hayes documenting your system layout.

LOL... I'm not perfect Peter. However... with all the "trench time" I have under my belt I've come to recognize what might be important for future work. With CAD capabilities it's a snap to add or delete details as needed to make someone else's job a little easier in the future.

Kiril
10-07-2007, 12:55 PM
I agree it has potential, however until they integrate the decoder into the solenoids I will only consider it in special applications.

PurpHaze
10-07-2007, 01:12 PM
I agree it has potential, however until they integrate the decoder into the solenoids I will only consider it in special applications.

That would be a tremendous asset.

BrandonV
10-07-2007, 01:19 PM
that's a great idea actually... patent it quick they're probably monitoring this site

Kiril
10-07-2007, 01:41 PM
that's a great idea actually... patent it quick they're probably monitoring this site

:laugh: It makes too much sense for it not to be patented.

I think this patent pretty much covers it, at least in raw principle.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6636782.html

Rotor_Tool
10-07-2007, 02:26 PM
O.k, I've kept up on this since Tucor came out..considered it on many
systems..decided to take the traditional path..tons of 13 strand..mainline
stubouts all over..I understand the expansion possibilities w/2 wire..but
something always bothered me about it.....as much as a geek I am, the
decoder/encoder/grounding thing (plus lack of locating..remote issues)
have kept me away..my clients could give a rat..not the point..service IS,
I still don't feel comfy with two wire....seems like we mite be heading down
the proverable "garden path" again.

I have installed a bunch of these systems. With the cost of wire today, anything over 45 stations is a no brainer for going with a two-wire solution. I have installed a couple of Tucor jobs, but I mainly use Rain Bird (surprise, surprise).

I saw it mentioned in one of the other posts that it is too new, if you search for the patents, Rain Bird patented decoder based control in the late 70's, how much time do you need? This has been the standard on golf course installs for over 20 years, it has gained popularity in the commercial market over the past 7-10 years.

As far as remotes go, you can use the Freedom system from Rain Bird on their MDC controller and your cell phone (everyone has a cell phone) is the remote transmitter. Installing these systems takes a little more care, it is essential you have an accurate as-built to track where components are located. Hacks will not do well with two-wire jobs. Trouble shooting is a breeze, everything is built into the controller - it will tell you what is going on. Provided you have the detailed as-built, you walk to the problem and fix it. Without a doubt, the best selling point is maintaining two wires as opposed to many multi-strand or worse, all single strand wires of the same color.

londonrain
10-07-2007, 02:37 PM
Trouble shooting is a breeze, everything is built into the controller - it will tell you what is going on. Provided you have the detailed as-built, you walk to the problem and fix it. Without a doubt, the best selling point is maintaining two wires as opposed to many multi-strand or worse, all single strand wires of the same color.
Trouble shooting when the system has been struck by lightening is NOT a breeze....

Rotor_Tool
10-07-2007, 02:48 PM
Trouble shooting when the system has been struck by lightening is NOT a breeze....

True, if the system has not been properly protected against surge as recommended by the manufacturers. If proper surge protection and grounding has been used, part - only part, of the system will be inoperable. If the system is installed with a looped wire path, it is very easy to identify where the lightning strike happened and what needs to be fixed.

It sounds like you were not the installer, but are now servicing the system so I think I can say repeat this without offending you...these systems should not be installed by hacks. If you did the install, I apologize - but would ask what kind of surge protection and grounding was used?

Kiril
10-07-2007, 03:18 PM
I saw it mentioned in one of the other posts that it is too new, if you search for the patents, Rain Bird patented decoder based control in the late 70's, how much time do you need? This has been the standard on golf course installs for over 20 years, it has gained popularity in the commercial market over the past 7-10 years.

If your referring to my maturity comment, mature doesn't necessarily correlate to time. An idea or product can be around for 100 years, but until technology and/or production costs (lower) catch up with the idea, it is still an immature product.

For example, Patent 20060071122 - Full body teleportation system (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20060071122.html?highlight=teleport&stemming=on)

Don't think we are going to see a working prototype of that patent for a long time to come. :laugh:

londonrain
10-07-2007, 03:18 PM
True, if the system has not been properly protected against surge as recommended by the manufacturers. If proper surge protection and grounding has been used, part - only part, of the system will be inoperable. If the system is installed with a looped wire path, it is very easy to identify where the lightning strike happened and what needs to be fixed.

It sounds like you were not the installer, but are now servicing the system so I think I can say repeat this without offending you...these systems should not be installed by hacks. If you did the install, I apologize - but would ask what kind of surge protection and grounding was used?The system uses 14ga which acts like a huge lightening antenna in the field, the pump is grounded with a grounding rod, the controller is grounded with a grounding rod and I have surge protectors spaced about every 250ft-300ft grounded via grounding rods and one on the end of the run. I did not install the system just maintain. Before I repaired the system they had 5 other irrigation companies trying to repair the system. The first time I was on the job the controller was blown, the booster pump was blow, the pump start was blown and 11 of the 21 decoders blown. Last year I replaced about 7 decoders, this year I replaced 6 decoders. In the long run this system has cost way more than a multi wire system.
From my understanding a 2wire should not have a looped wire path.

I locate and repair more wire than any contractor I know in my area or on this board, so I know how to trouble shoot a wiring problem... and I know from experience that a 2 wire is NOT a BREEZE period.

Only thing easy about a 2 wire is the installation for the contractor.

Rotor_Tool
10-07-2007, 03:23 PM
The system uses 14ga which acts like a huge lightening antenna in the field, the pump is grounded with a grounding rod, the controller is grounded with a grounding rod and I have surge protectors spaced about every 250ft-300ft grounded via grounding rods and one on the end of the run. I did not install the system just maintain. Before I repaired the system they had 5 other irrigation companies trying to repair the system. The first time I was on the job the controller was blown, the booster pump was blow, the pump start was blown and 11 of the 21 decoders blown. Last year I replaced about 7 decoders, this year I replaced 6 decoders. In the long run this system has cost way more than a multi wire system.
From my understanding a 2wire should not have a looped wire path.

I locate and repair more wire than any contractor I know in my area or on this board, so I know how to trouble shoot a wiring problem... and I know from experience that a 2 wire is NOT a BREEZE period.

Only thing easy about a 2 wire is the installation for the contractor.

Again, I don't have experience with the Hit system. My experience with Rain Bird and a couple of Hunter systems has been a breeze, but I installed them and I maintain them.

Unfortunately, it sounds like you inherit systems installed by the hacks that I mentioned previously.

Mike Leary
10-07-2007, 03:25 PM
I locate and repair more wire than any contractor I know in my area or on this board, so I know how to trouble shoot a wiring problem... and I know from experience that a 2 wire is NOT a BREEZE period.

Only thing easy about a 2 wire is the installation for the contractor.

Coming from you..I have to believe!:)

Rotor_Tool
10-07-2007, 03:31 PM
If your referring to my maturity comment, mature doesn't necessarily correlate to time. An idea or product can be around for 100 years, but until technology and/or production costs (lower) catch up with the idea, it is still an immature product.

For example, Patent 20060071122 - Full body teleportation system (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20060071122.html?highlight=teleport&stemming=on)

Don't think we are going to see a working prototype of that patent for a long time to come. :laugh:

You don't have one of these yet? How in the hell do you make more than one service call a day in California without one?

londonrain
10-07-2007, 03:46 PM
A breeze trouble shooting on a multi wire system is if a zone is not working, hook up station master and either it will be good, short, open. This tells me what I am dealing with.

Mike Leary
10-07-2007, 03:52 PM
Station masters are a must!:clapping:

londonrain
10-07-2007, 04:04 PM
Station masters are a must!:clapping:
Cant really take advantage of the the station master while at the controller on a 2 wire, must be used right at the valve. And since most 2wire are for large areas I don't consider this a breeze but more of a pain in the a$$. :confused:

Mike Leary
10-07-2007, 04:19 PM
Cant really take advantage of the the station master while at the controller on a 2 wire, must be used right at the valve. And since most 2wire are for large areas I don't consider this a breeze but more of a pain in the a$$. :confused:

Would a solenoid/decoder solve this? I think you need a jet pac!:laugh:

FIMCO-MEISTER
10-08-2007, 08:19 AM
I think LR hit it on the head when he said two wire is for the benefit of the installer. The real service cost has not been figured in. If it takes me two hours to figure out what is going on as opposed to 15 minutes on multi-wire. That can add up real fast. Rarely does the original installer maintain the service on their systems.

Mike Leary
10-08-2007, 03:18 PM
Rarely does the original installer maintain the service on their systems.

Sad but true, I did..one reason I got so much money when I sold.:clapping: