Get Legal Or Get Out

[daveintoledo]

i cant beleive it, the first 5 threads i read today are all by people who are obviously not running a legal business....

the information is available, either get legal or get the hell out......

[TheChiefsLawnCare]

well i would get leagal if i was older and more security. as im only 17 and only have 9 accounts. would like to have more than 9 2 start payin for taxes and insurance.

[TheChiefsLawnCare]

although i would like to because then i would be able to get commercial property unless you gotta be 18, but more doors would open for me.

[daveintoledo]

well i would get leagal if i was older and more security. as im only 17 and only have 9 accounts. would like to have more than 9 2 start payin for taxes and insurance.

get your parents to help you, register your business name with the state, get insurance from your parents homeowners company, check with local gov for any permits, many places require you to have a vendors license and collect sales tax......ther aer other young men here who have pulled it off, and it will help you in the long run with a better business

[TheChiefsLawnCare]

yes, ur right, but imma wait until nex season when i c how my business is doing.

[bohiaa]

so what happens if you send a rock through a child....



then what.....

[Crusis]

The good news is that at 17 it won't be you that gets jail time for tax evasion, it will be your parents.

[Blowin Grass]

Know too many people who have been running it wihtout paying taxes for years. I'm sure I'll be alright.

[Stillwater]

[QUOTE=daveintoledo;1994199]i cant beleive it, the first 5 threads i read today are all by people who are obviously not running a legal business....QUOTE]


Well those people most likely are takeing your advice you have quoted at the bottom of every one of your posts......

[HOOLIE]

get your parents to help you, register your business name with the state, get insurance from your parents homeowners company, check with local gov for any permits, many places require you to have a vendors license and collect sales tax......ther aer other young men here who have pulled it off, and it will help you in the long run with a better business

Actually at 17, I mean, come on...these are kids actually WORKING rather than running around doing God knows what like so many others. I'd rather see the work ethic than beat them down for not being 'legit'.

[Mike Blevins]

Insurance around here is non existant for most lawncare operators. I have insurance and a business license and pay taxes. I can think of 6 people right now that have been mowing for years and never paid taxes or had insurance. We have a U.S. Lawns and a couple more BIG companies here the rest is mostly mom and pop outfits. All I care about is myself and my business. If I didnt pay taxes or have insurance the first thing I would have done is send a rock through someones window and the IRS would have audited me. These other people don`t worry me, they come and go. Especially in a dry year like this one has been. My ducks are in a row!

[packey]

Hey get insurance it will save your tail if any thing happens and it will I promise. You will eventually send a rock through something. Also check on your tax situation you can pay your taxes at the end of the year IRS does not like it but it is legal. Also if you fit the right criterial you can make up to 5000 dollars a year as of last year if you are a college student. But yes make yourself legit it. It will also help in getting more work

[GreenT]

Actually at 17, I mean, come on...these are kids actually WORKING rather than running around doing God knows what like so many others. I'd rather see the work ethic than beat them down for not being 'legit'.


I would have to respectfully disagree.

These are the "kids" that have and will continue to hurt this industry. Because of their lack of overhead and business sense, they are the ones lowballing everybody just to get the work. A legitimate operation that pays taxes, carries insurance, has proper permits, professional equipment, technical knowledge, cannot compete with them.

Having said that, I'm also aware that there is enough work for everybody if one targets the right market. But in the end the "kids" and all the other illegal operators create downward pressure on overall prices.

That's why lawn service is less now than 10 years ago even tho everything else has gone up in price. I for one I'm tired of seeing $30-$50 a month lawn service. :hammerhead:

JMO

[HOOLIE]

I
That's why lawn service is less now than 10 years ago even tho everything else has gone up in price. I for one I'm tired of seeing $30-$50 a month lawn service. :hammerhead:

JMO

Well you could move from Florida...but seriously, the kids are not the problem...if you didn't know that kids mow lawns when you started your business, well, I don't believe that. It's the guys that hire illegals, allowing themselves to grow much faster than they should, LEGALLY, plus the guys that just do shoddy and crappy work, that bring the industry down. Most kids I've seen do a pretty decent job.

[Stillwater]

Actually at 17, I mean, come on...these are kids actually WORKING rather than running around doing God knows what like so many others. I'd rather see the work ethic than beat them down for not being 'legit'.

NO Kidding.........

[Stillwater]

I would have to respectfully disagree.

These are the "kids" that have and will continue to hurt this industry. Because of their lack of overhead and business sense, they are the ones lowballing everybody just to get the work. A legitimate operation that pays taxes, carries insurance, has proper permits, professional equipment, technical knowledge, cannot compete with them.

Having said that, I'm also aware that there is enough work for everybody if one targets the right market. But in the end the "kids" and all the other illegal operators create downward pressure on overall prices.

That's why lawn service is less now than 10 years ago even tho everything else has gone up in price. I for one I'm tired of seeing $30-$50 a month lawn service. :hammerhead:

JMO


OH PLEASE !

[LushGreenLawn]

You guys that are openly admitting to not paying taxes, the IRS looks at these trade newsgroups all the time. I would make sure there is nothing in your profile that would help them track you down.

Also, what happens when another lawncare operator calls your info in to the local tax office to see if you have a business license. Think it dosen't happen? Everyone who goes into our local phonebook or newspaper gets caught, because more than one LCO calls them in on a regular basis. I do not do this because there are enough guys doing it that I don't have to.

If you are not running a legitimate business, you are a criminal, plain and simple.

[Stillwater]

children mowing grass under the age of 18 are not criminal if you are genuinely threatened by this then i suggest you take a close look at your business plan and see what the real issue is.

[Stillwater]

You guys that are openly admitting to not paying taxes, the IRS looks at these trade newsgroups all the time. I would make sure there is nothing in your profile that would help them track you down.

Also, what happens when another lawncare operator calls your info in to the local tax office to see if you have a business license. Think it dosen't happen? Everyone who goes into our local phonebook or newspaper gets caught, because more than one LCO calls them in on a regular basis. I do not do this because there are enough guys doing it that I don't have to.

If you are not running a legitimate business, you are a criminal, plain and simple.

whats your business name? lush green lawn? I want to check to see if you are nice and legal..... you have a LLC or a DBA What ? tell us.

[LushGreenLawn]

It is criminal if they are running a business and not paying taxes, no matter what the age. I am not talking about the 15 year old cutting his neighbors lawn, but the ones actually out trying to act like their running a business.


I never wrote in my post that I feel threatened, but these people do tend to drag the entire industry down. Even if you service High End properties, there can only be so much of a price gap. If the uninsured redneck can do it for $30, and you charge $80, the homeowner is going to look at it like you are overpriced, despite the level of quality you are giving him. If another company that dosen't provide good service, but has to pay taxes because its the LAW has to charge 50, than your $80 is much more appealing, since they are paying $30 instead of $50 for quality.

All your guys trying to look like your running a business, but don't even have the proper licenses, are a joke. Its one thing to be young and take on the risk of not having insurance, thats a business decision (although a bad one) but not paying taxes makes you a what? criminal.

[GreenT]

Well you could move from Florida..

Funny. However, more and more I read about other states having the same problem.



...if you didn't know that kids mow lawns when you started your business, well, I don't believe that

I wasn't talking about kids doing their neighbor's yard for weekend money, nothing wrong with that. I'm talking about "kids" driving a truck and trailer with mowers, trimmers, signs, just like many of us. They present themselves as a legitimate LCO. They advertise like we do. They go after accounts like we do. EXCEPT, they bid everything 50% less than it should be.



But in the end the "kids" and all the other illegal operators create downward pressure on overall prices.

This was the point of my post. If you don't see it, you are blind.

[privatelawn]

I have yet to see a kid (under 18 ) with a lawn care business around here, even if there is 1 or 2 I cant see it hurting prices much even if they mowed for free.

[thefed]

stop complaining about other people this and ither people that. it's mis-directed anger.


instead, look closer at YOUR business, YOUR service, YOUR overhead etc. If you do quality work, charge a fair price, and manage your business right, you will succeed.

LCO has LEAST barriers to enter the industry...and it's cheap. There's also a LOT of grass to be cut out there. There's no reason you can't get your fair share by being prudent.

I just helped a friend start from the ground up, and we will end the season grossing about $40k. and this is in what was descrived to me as a "saturated market". There's 60 LCO's in the SMALL local paper, and maybe 80 in the big one.



Learn how to run YOUR business and you'll be fine

[HOOLIE]

Funny. However, more and more I read about other states having the same problem.





I wasn't talking about kids doing their neighbor's yard for weekend money, nothing wrong with that. I'm talking about "kids" driving a truck and trailer with mowers, trimmers, signs, just like many of us. They present themselves as a legitimate LCO. They advertise like we do. They go after accounts like we do. EXCEPT, they bid everything 50% less than it should be.





This was the point of my post. If you don't see it, you are blind.


With all due respect my friend, and I do mean respect...what are you gonna do? Anyone can get into this business...both the beauty and curse of it. You have to take the good with the bad, find a way to rise above. I know you can bring more to the table than most other guys. Just do your thing, and you'll be fine.

[thefed]

and another thing :What does get legal or get out mean? You really mean "man this sucks...im not making enough $$. please adopt my business practices so we can all have a hard time surviving"

this is BUSINESS man...cut throat. every man for himself. man up! get out there and SELL youself, SELL your services, EXPLAIN why the guy charging $30 isnt the right choice etc. I can sell my way into any situation for any reasonI desire....start there and you'll be fine. Practice, practice, practice. Show them the VALUE. show them the smile. show them the personal side. it works....trust me

Your worries need not lie in the competition, but yourself. im NOt trying to be a jerk or anything, but seriously...the only thing you can change is YOUR business. Well...maybe you can change others' as you call them all in to the taxman...lol.....but seriously- figure it out and move on.

this lesson is one i learned a while back when i first got into my first business. id open the paper, or magazine, and scope out the competition. i'd take a good look when i saw them out around town. i'd worry when i saw another company giving a quote etc. Only when i realized that they were doing the same thing that I straightened my act out, and SOLD myself,my services, MY prices etc. I NEVER talk down about the competition, bu I sure make the possibilities clear to the customer. Most customers, when educated, can make the right decision. Maybe though, you arent the right decision? Make sure you are

[GreenT]

With all due respect my friend, and I do mean respect...what are you gonna do? Anyone can get into this business...both the beauty and curse of it. You have to take the good with the bad, find a way to rise above. I know you can bring more to the table than most other guys. Just do your thing, and you'll be fine.


You guys are missing the big picture.

I want you to look at our industry from a larger perspective and realize that the kids, the illegal aliens, the illegal operators,etc are affecting everyone's pricing whether you want to admit it or not. No matter how you slice it, it impacts all of us.

And I'm not talking about ease of entry to become an LCO, I know that compared to other trades is easy to get in it. I'm talking about taxes, licensing, insurance, WC. I'm talking about fair competition.


You have to take the good with the bad, find a way to rise above. I know you can bring more to the table than most other guys. Just do your thing, and you'll be fine.

Thank you HOOLIE, I have risen above it by taking a different direction than most. I was just supporting the OP's position and really find it odd that any legitimate operator on this site would justify/defend anyone working in less than a fully legit fashion.


stop b!Tch!n about other people this and ither people that. it's mis-directed anger.

I'm not angry :) . Just expressing my opinion.

[lawnmaniac883]

Come down to florida, I would guess 80% of the LCO's around here dont pay taxes and dont have a business license...hell my local mulch/gravel/stone yard doesnt pay sales tax if you pay cash.

[stevenf]

They go after accounts like we do. EXCEPT, they bid everything 50% less than it should be.


I will admit I am one of the people you are reffering to. I am 19, got a business name, and I honestly didnt know anything else had to be done to become legal until the past few threads were posted on here and all of that will be corrected and insurence will be purchased next season.
HOWEVER, you can not sterotype all of us young ones with a business sign on a trailer. I have not lowballed anyone! All of my quotes were the right price.

[GroundControlLawnCare]

I would have to respectfully disagree.

These are the "kids" that have and will continue to hurt this industry. Because of their lack of overhead and business sense, they are the ones lowballing everybody just to get the work. A legitimate operation that pays taxes, carries insurance, has proper permits, professional equipment, technical knowledge, cannot compete with them.

Having said that, I'm also aware that there is enough work for everybody if one targets the right market. But in the end the "kids" and all the other illegal operators create downward pressure on overall prices.

That's why lawn service is less now than 10 years ago even tho everything else has gone up in price. I for one I'm tired of seeing $30-$50 a month lawn service. :hammerhead:

JMO

NO NOT THE KIDS DOWN HERE THAT HURTS THE INDUSTRY, IT IS FOUR MEXACANS SERVICING A 1/4 ACRE LOT FOR 25.00 BUCKS. NOW YOU KNOW THEY ARE NOT MAKING ANY KIND OF PROFIT AT THAT PRICE. DOES NOT MATTER TO THEM BECAUSE THEY NOW CAN BUY A CASE OF BEER AT THE END OF THE DAY.DOES THAT BOTHER ME , NOPE. I WAS TOLD TO DAY IF I APPLY ROUND UP I HAVE TO CARRY 400,000.00$ IN INSURANCE . DOES THAT BOTHER ME NOPE NOT ONE BIT. AT THE END OF THE DAY I KNOW I AM LEGALL. EVERY BODY NEEDS TO WORRY ABOUT THEM SELVES!!!

[Crusis]

Wow... all caps... must have hit a sore spot.

If you don't pay taxes, and you don't carry insurance, you don't have your DOT #s, you don't have your business license, you run a risk. The risk is that you will either injure someone and be sued, you will be audited, you will be fined by the Motor Carrier cops, or you will be turned in by the competition that doesn't want you undercutting them because your overhead is unfairly low.

I don't care about any of that, if you want to do things the fly by night way, knock yourself out. I have three little girls that I care about, so we have set everything up as right as we can be so that we don't have to explain to the kids why they're eating Ramen noodles for the 57th day in a row after we're audited or fined.

Worry about yourselves is good advice, but if someone comes on here and says they're not legal, they should catch a rash of sh!t. They d@mn well asked for it by throwing their illegality in the face of those who try to do it right.

I don't wish ill on a single 17 year old kid. I hope they all make enough money to take the right path.

[GroundControlLawnCare]

Wow... all caps... must have hit a sore spot.

If you don't pay taxes, and you don't carry insurance, you don't have your DOT #s, you don't have your business license, you run a risk. The risk is that you will either injure someone and be sued, you will be audited, you will be fined by the Motor Carrier cops, or you will be turned in by the competition that doesn't want you undercutting them because your overhead is unfairly low.

I don't care about any of that, if you want to do things the fly by night way, knock yourself out. I have three little girls that I care about, so we have set everything up as right as we can be so that we don't have to explain to the kids why they're eating Ramen noodles for the 57th day in a row after we're audited or fined.

Worry about yourselves is good advice, but if someone comes on here and says they're not legal, they should catch a rash of sh!t. They d@mn well asked for it by throwing their illegality in the face of those who try to do it right.

I don't wish ill on a single 17 year old kid. I hope they all make enough money to take the right path.

I agree.But what can you do? I am legal and thats all i care about. Telling them just fuels the fire . I just dont waste my time responding to them . hell, i mostly read ls to make me biss better.

[thefed]

its funny how this topic has been beaten to death in the 6 months ive been a member here, and surely the years preceding me


It's no different than ANY other industry. Some pay taxes, some don't. Some are shady, some are not. Some do good work, some don't. Some charge a lot, some charge for beer money.


I don't see lawncare being unique at all. Lots of illegals, sure....but they also do plenty other jobs that most americans wont do either


get over it


please dont one person take offense, but come on. the horse is dead

[newz7151]

I have yet to see a kid (under 18 ) with a lawn care business around here, even if there is 1 or 2 I cant see it hurting prices much even if they mowed for free.

Ok, so let's say you are a consumer trying to choose between 2 ads in a newspaper. I found the picture below with an online search, that was part of a larger directory type of thing that also runs in a newspaper I assume. Which company would you call? And keep in mind that the "2" on the right are the same company.

[stevenf]

$10.00 per cut?!?!?!?! How do they afford the gas to the house? That is flat out rediculous!

[Stillwater]

The good news is that at 17 it won't be you that gets jail time for tax evasion, it will be your parents.

what a bunch of crap

[Stillwater]

I can understand the need to vent over lowballers, but this is business what are you willing to do to survive?

In America the good old USA, the majority of small new businesses fail and not in just this industry. Some hear need to face the fact that a new or ANOTHER landscape business will not work in their geographical area. Some also need to realize that they can only make X amount of money no mater what. It may suck but it is a fact.

The only problem I have with lowballers is not that they dilute the area with lawn care operations lowering the price for some, it is if they are illegal immigrants. If they came to my country by being a criminal, a sneak, a lier. I don't like that crap and in fact I think it is dangerous and they need to be confronted and run out, they have no right to be hear taking your work, so do something about it otherwise you are part of the problem.

This crap is about YOU! so... Stop focusing on other business and MIND YOUR OWN. the only exception to that should be if they are in the USA illegally. Open your PIE HOLE and shout that crap out call ICE.

That my friends is protecting YOUR livelihood and defending your country. otherwise focus on your accounts because this is about YOU not the dam lowballers YOU, and if your current customers are truly happy with YOU, your work, They Like YOU, They Trust YOU, They think YOU are reliable and They think YOU care about them. Then when the lowballers show up and try to lowball YOU. Your customers will think OF YOU! and say NO THANK YOU!.

The bottom line is get over the lowballers its not about them it is about YOU They were hear in the seventies when I started and they are still hear and they are not going away they have always been hear so accept it. Now not to sound arrogant but I feel sorry for the guys who don't agree with this. Now for those who do not agree, when you are done crying and you stop listning to the James Blunt CD in your truck, I seriously suggest you take your head out and get creative.

[privatelawn]

Thats just a way to sell his services or whatever makes him money... the way I see it customers know what cheap or free mean, normally crappy service, most customers wont just switch over to the next cheapest guy, like said, you get what you pay for. I have no problem with cheap, free whatever... at the end of the day they all get what they paid for.

If I am a customer who cares/loves there lawn/landscaping I would not hire the cheapest, If I could care less about it then id go with the cheapest. There is enough business out there for everyone.

Ok, so let's say you are a consumer trying to choose between 2 ads in a newspaper. I found the picture below with an online search, that was part of a larger directory type of thing that also runs in a newspaper I assume. Which company would you call? And keep in mind that the "2" on the right are the same company.

[topsites]

Look, it's simple math: At least 90% of ALL customers out there want something for nothing, every single last one of the vast majority of everybody who calls an LCO wants at LEAST a 20% -30% discount, and I mean 50% is more like it and they really want 70% and it doesn't end, it never ever ends.

On the flipside of this coin, 90% of ALL businesses do NOT make it past 5 years, really a good 50% don't make it past the first year, another 30% fall out the next, and the final 20% in this equation fall out between the 3rd and 5th or thereabouts (ok I think the math isn't right but just bear with me).

Now I don't care who you are, if you don't cut corners some kind of way then you are finished. Yes, there is always compromise in the business, your choice if you want to stay in business is to find where this compromise should fall, and everybody and everything can and will compromise, it really is all fair game. Yes, the IRS can be compromised, insurance can take it, the customers can do it, and so can you, the equipment, the quality of the work, and I, really, anything and everything. But one thing is for sure: Some things will compromise and BE compromised.
And the longer you're in business, the more the compromise can be shifted.
So does it not make sense, the longer you're in business the more elite your customers become?
Because if you have less than 5 years in, then your customers are likely to be those 90%, for one I drop them off left and right.
I am sure other longer term Lco's do, too. They then call me, I refuse, they call you next, do you accept?
So no matter what you do it always works out kind of like that, at least it sure did (and does) in my case.

Therefore, if your customers are not the kind you want, I agree, it is upon you to make the change, let those other Lco's be, we haven't a clue as to how legit they are just because of appearances, maybe they don't have a business license or insurance but at the same rate we're talking 450 dollars to cover this for a year so maybe we better make no assumptions?

You'd be surprised, maybe it IS the guy in the fancy looking outfit that looks like all his stuff is in one sock, maybe it is him who isn't legit and yet the guy that's tooling along with old crapped out stuff is legit, there's no telling.

And yes, it is about risk, no risk, no profit.
So there you have it, who cares.
Maybe you paid the IRS too much?
Why don't you question that garbage?
How do you know that 20-some year old employee of the government is up to par on tax laws?
Or, you can just go out and do some more work, either way there went my time and I gotta get going now. :laugh:

[cgaengineer]

I pay my taxes at the end of the year. I am not big enough right now to worry about it. I did this 2 years ago when I was installing low voltage network cables. Just as if you had a tax ID, you must make sure you keep every reciept. As far as a business license, here in Winder, GA you dont need one as long as long as you are operating under your own name (Check with your city/state laws).

Now insurance is a different story, you need to get insurance as soon as you can before you hurt someone or something. As much as we all hate insurance companies, most of the time they are there when you need them.

Also, charge as much as market will bear for services, as long as the quality matches what you are charging.

Everyone who got into this business didnt go out and get business license, TX ID, insurance right off the bat. Most people started with nothing and accuired the legal stuff at a later time. Cut these people some slack...we all have to start somewhere.

[daveintoledo]

[QUOTE=thefed;1994500]and another thing :What does get legal or get out mean? You really mean "man this sucks...im not making enough $$. please adopt my business practices so we can all have a hard time surviving"

not only am i dong well, im one of the biggest outfits in my area..... and support my family quite well... see the thing is, i have trimmers that have been in business longer then you hahahahhahah you have no idea what you are doing,

my complaint is about illegal business in general not my area, i have already burried my competition.....

either your a businessman or a criminal, sounds like your a criminal......

[Stillwater]

[QUOTE=thefed;1994500]and another thing :What does get legal or get out mean? You really mean "man this sucks...im not making enough $$. please adopt my business practices so we can all have a hard time surviving"

not only am i dong well, im one of the biggest outfits in my area..... and support my family quite well... see the thing is, i have trimmers that have been in business longer then you hahahahhahah you have no idea what you are doing,

my complaint is about illegal business in general not my area, i have already burried my competition.....

either your a businessman or a criminal, sounds like your a criminal......

in your signature you say you don't need no stinkin licence, mabey you could change it to get a licence now......

[acm8705]

It's easier to start legal than to become legal after you've been in business.

[Wells]

I believe that if you are going to start any type of business you should be willing to put forth the effort to do it right. In our industry this means aquiring a business license, carying liability insurance and paying taxes.

If an individual can't operate under the guidelines set forth by the government on operating a business then they shouldn't be calling themselves a business. In this industry your either a legitimate business owner, the kid down the street or a poser... and I believe Daveintoledo started this thread for the posers.

[lawnman_scott]

You guys that are openly admitting to not paying taxes, the IRS looks at these trade newsgroups all the time. I would make sure there is nothing in your profile that would help them track you down.
Are you really nieve enough to beleive that? They are going to waste money going after a teenager mowing a few lawns????? What about the 13-14 y/o who goes around with a push mower door to door? Are they going to do a felony search warrant on his house at 4am? Bust down the door and drag everyone out of bed?

[M&SLawnCare]

I don't think a lot of kids plan to make a business out of this. I started mowing when i was 13. Like h*ll i was going to worry about a license at that age mowing 2 yards a week lol. I stayed with it because I found out making 30+ an hour working for myself was much more enjoyable than making 5$ an hour at the local McDonalds like my friends where. It grew, but at most i was doing maybe 15 jobs a week. I never expected to make a career out of it or i'ld have gone legit long ago. Went to college and did a year in the work force and now I'm back into this business legally.

If you plan to make a living at this then you defiantly want to become legal as soon as you can. You can get to where you want to be much faster because being legal opens a lot of new doors. But I don't have any problem with the kid out their mowing for spare cash legal or not. As said before i'ld rather see that than see another spoiled kid living off his parents and being a general drain on society. If your worried about the market prices dropping then you need to worry about the legit businesses that higher illegals. Those are the ones that cripple the small LCO.

What do you think would hurt you more, 10 different 15 year olds pushing their dads mower around your neighborhood or brickman coming to town. I don't compete much in the market that the kids are getting (and i've used my age to my advantage and gotten accounts because I'm a "local neighborhood kid" over bigger lco's many times while charging the same amount. Its called marketing). However a bigger lco run by illegals would directly hit my market assuming they did a decent job.

[GreenT]

The bottom line is get over the lowballers its not about them it is about YOU They were hear in the seventies when I started and they are still hear and they are not going away they have always been hear so accept it.

Now for those who do not agree, when you are done crying and you stop listning to the James Blunt CD in your truck, I seriously suggest you take your head out of your A and get creative.


I love this, "hey its always been this way, so get over it"

By that rational we wouldn't need laws or enforcement. "Hey, there have always been robberies/corruption/muggings/kidnappings/rapes/murders, so get over it.

In fact, let's dismantle the IRS since there are always people that cheat and don't pay taxes.

Even better, shut down the INS. There have always been illegal aliens, so why bother. Let's just ACCEPT IT. :hammerhead:

Yes I know and agree, this subject is a dead horse. However, this thread started with a very common sense comment: "Get legal or get out". Simply stated, regardles of who you are, get licensed, carry appropiate insurance including WC, permits, and pay your taxes. Do that and then we will welcome you with open arms brother.

I would think on this site, populated by thousand of legit operators that would get a general nod of approval instead of all this static of "its about YOU", or "get over it".



BTW, who is James Blunt? :confused:

[Dunn's]

I don't know why you bring up a post like this on a site that 90% of it is compiled by lowballers.

[Stillwater]

I love this, "hey its always been this way, so get over it"

By that rational we wouldn't need laws or enforcement. "Hey, there have always been robberies/corruption/muggings/kidnappings/rapes/murders, so get over it.

In fact, let's dismantle the IRS since there are always people that cheat and don't pay taxes.

Even better, shut down the INS. There have always been illegal aliens, so why bother. Let's just ACCEPT IT. :hammerhead:

Yes I know and agree, this subject is a dead horse. However, this thread started with a very common sense comment: "Get legal or get out". Simply stated, regardles of who you are, get licensed, carry appropiate insurance including WC, permits, and pay your taxes. Do that and then we will welcome you with open arms brother.

I would think on this site, populated by thousand of legit operators that would get a general nod of approval instead of all this static of "its about YOU", or "get over it".
BTW, who is James Blunt? :confused:

Apparently you do not know or understand the history behind American lawn care industry. You speak as if low balling is a new phenomenon that suddenly appeared and can be repaired or corrected by action on your part. Let me guess you are a liberal democrat waiting for legislation to entitle you to something you don't want to earn yourself. Take your panties off and put on a pair of boxers pal becouse those lowballers are going to be running right over you while you are busy crying and worrying about them and not worring about yourself.

[LushGreenLawn]

stop complaining about other people this and ither people that. it's mis-directed anger.


instead, look closer at YOUR business, YOUR service, YOUR overhead etc. If you do quality work, charge a fair price, and manage your business right, you will succeed.

LCO has LEAST barriers to enter the industry...and it's cheap. There's also a LOT of grass to be cut out there. There's no reason you can't get your fair share by being prudent.

I just helped a friend start from the ground up, and we will end the season grossing about $40k. and this is in what was descrived to me as a "saturated market". There's 60 LCO's in the SMALL local paper, and maybe 80 in the big one.



Learn how to run YOUR business and you'll be fine

Your not getting the point, If I am paying taxes, and your not, your overhead is 20% less than mine.

When everyone it on a level playing field, you can cut cost legitimatly to compete.

You can't cut enough costs legitimatly to compete with someone who is doing something illegal...yes, offering quality services warrants higher prices, but the industry still gets pulled down as a whole.

[GreenT]

Apparently you do not know or understand the history behind American lawn care industry. You speak as if low balling is a new phenomenon that suddenly appeared and can be repaired or corrected by action on your part. Let me guess you are a liberal democrat waiting for legislation to entitle you to something you don't want to earn yourself. Take your panties off and put on a pair of boxers pal becouse those lowballers are going to be running right over you while you are busy crying and worrying about them and not worring about yourself.


Look eshskis, and get it thru your thick head. We are talking about ILLEGITIMATE operators. The fact that most of them are lowballers is a result of them being illegitimate ($0 overhead) and are able to do it for less.

Leave the politics out of it. Please.

They are not running over me (far from it) and I'm not worried about them either, but I still the right to support the opinions and comments of a fellow LCO that clearly is correct.

You seem to feel very strongly about this subject. Are you legit?

[GreenT]

Your not getting the point, If I am paying taxes, and your not, your overhead is 20% less than mine.

When everyone it on a level playing field, you can cut cost legitimatly to compete.

You can't cut enough costs legitimatly to compete with someone who is doing something illegal...yes, offering quality services warrants higher prices, but the industry still gets pulled down as a whole.



Thank you LGL.

Clearly you understand the point of this thread.

[thefed]

Your not getting the point, If I am paying taxes, and your not, your overhead is 20% less than mine.

When everyone it on a level playing field, you can cut cost legitimatly to compete.

You can't cut enough costs legitimatly to compete with someone who is doing something illegal...yes, offering quality services warrants higher prices, but the industry still gets pulled down as a whole.


boo friggin hoo. re-read my posts, try to comprehend them, and try again

low prices arent all that makes this industry go round. low price hunters= cheap ass customers i dont want anyhow. let the lowballers and cheapskates live in harmony while i work with the rest of the population

[TheChiefsLawnCare]

ok, sooo people that arent legitimet dont run any kind of equipemnt, its never breaks and we never run out of gas. so how can us "lowballers" have 0 overhead. and how the **** do you no that we dont give quality work. i have not lose one customer because of bad work. every week i am complemented. sounds like ur jus a lil ***** and need to get over the fact that when start somethin, u have 2 start somewheres. this is for GreenT. if your work was good enough than u wouldnt worry about how much u charged. cause u would have people talking about you and sayin that he may be more than other people but hes well worth it cause he does such good work. people need to start somewhere, i serously doubt u started with alll the needed stuff 2 be called an actual business.

[LushGreenLawn]

The Chiefs...spoken like a true 12 year old.

It's obvious the last two poster do not have the integrity to go out and run a company like it should be run. The fact is, laws are made for a reason. No one has brought this up yet, but all you tax evaders make [B]everyone[B] pay higher taxes. This is why the IRS goes after tax cheats.

If you are not a legitimate company, please do not reply to my posts, this discussion does not concern you, it is a discussion among adults, who run legitimate companys.

[TheChiefsLawnCare]

its a free site and "we" can post where we wanna

[stevenf]

Keep in mind that most 13-14 year olds push mowing there neighborhoods dont make more then $5,000.00 for the year, Therefore arent required to pay taxes.

[Charles]

The problem is not those under 18. The problem is that this country has lost 3 million manufacturing jobs since 2001 to overseas competition and 100's of 1000's of textile jobs. Leading workers to a easy business to get into. Many people now have to work 2 jobs to make end meet. Leading to huge glut of LCO's scrapping and lowballing over customers.
Most of these people worked for hourly salaries and have no idea how a seasonal business works. They usually find out a few years of being a lco or go out of business. I have seen what many do. They do shoddy work and cut corners.
Lawncare is a trap for many who do not work legit because you have trouble showing a work record for a future employment--after you go under:rolleyes:
This government has also reigned in the IRS and cut agents. So the chances of getting caught are slim to none. Huge fines if you do get caught.
Welcome to the Global economy. Where the American worker has become expendable

[thefed]

The Chiefs...spoken like a true 12 year old.

It's obvious the last two poster do not have the integrity to go out and run a company like it should be run. The fact is, laws are made for a reason. No one has brought this up yet, but all you tax evaders make [B]everyone[B] pay higher taxes. This is why the IRS goes after tax cheats.

If you are not a legitimate company, please do not reply to my posts, this discussion does not concern you, it is a discussion among adults, who run legitimate companys.

honestly, are you that friggin dense?

READ MY POST. Now go get someone with comprehension skills and ask them to explain it to you. There is nothin in any of my posts indicating whether I'm legit or not.

Instead my posts explain why it does not matter whether or not the competition is legitimate (ie insurance, business licenses, tax paying). Costs are costs. Competition is competition. Yeah, illegitimate operations lowball....and driving your chevy 1500 spurs along global warming. so what. dont drive your truck and see where it gets you. or better yet, go onto a forum and complain about it...MAKE A DIFFERENCE! lol


OR....STFU and deal with it. MY ONLY point is that this topic is covered, analyzed, re-analyzed, talked about, discussed, agreed upon, beaten and DEAD. RUN YOUR BUSINESS AND FORGET ABOUT IT.

[Charles]

honestly, are you that friggin dense?

OR....STFU and deal with it. MY ONLY point is that this topic is covered, analyzed, re-analyzed, talked about, discussed, agreed upon, beaten and DEAD. RUN YOUR BUSINESS AND FORGET ABOUT IT.

This forum is about enlightening newbies too. Try and not be so harsh in the future

[LushGreenLawn]

Alright, this is my last post on this. Chiefs, we obviously have two different opinions on this subject and will keep going in circles. I will agre with you that this is an issue that has been beat to death.

I usually do not worry about these things so much, but when you have all these people openly admitting and condoning this criminal behavior, it does bother me. I realize that there will always be people who do this, but is should not be promoted. You may not have meant to come across this way, but your posts, and many others in this thread are actually promoting this activity, new people reading this may be thinking, wow, people really do get away without paying taxes, why shouldn't I.

StevenF, If you are making over $600 per year, you must may taxes, I'm not sure where the $5000 figure you got came from. This is straight from my accountant. Well, correction....You have to file a tax return, mabye you do not end up paying if its under an amount like $5000, but you stil have to file the paperwork.

[daveintoledo]

[QUOTE=daveintoledo;1995032]

in your signature you say you don't need no stinkin licence, mabey you could change it to get a licence now......

that was directed years ago at someone here who thought the way to go was illegal.... you see, i was completly legit before i ever cut my first blade of grass

[Crusis]

I don't understand all the hostility, really. Everyone should play by the law, if you're not then you're cheating your customers, your peers, and society. It's all about whether a person is honest, or if a person isn't.

Run your own business is exactly what all of us will do. Trying to get rid of illegal competition IS running your own business.

You don't have to be hateful to get that point across, however. If someone who is running illegal gets hateful, then it's because they're defensive about being something they know they shouldn't be. Dishonest.

[daveintoledo]

I don't understand all the hostility, really. Everyone should play by the law, if you're not then you're cheating your customers, your peers, and society. It's all about whether a person is honest, or if a person isn't.

Run your own business is exactly what all of us will do. Trying to get rid of illegal competition IS running your own business.

You don't have to be hateful to get that point across, however. If someone who is running illegal gets hateful, then it's because they're defensive about being something they know they shouldn't be. Dishonest.

i dont know or care how old you are, but that was a very inteligent and well thought out post...:)

[Wells]

Those of you that are looking at being legal as too much of an expence need to realize it's actually costing you more money per year to run an illegal business then it does to run a legal business.

An illegal business isn't going to be able to write off any of their expences. All of your equipment costs, repairs, fuel, marketing, vehicle costs, office supplies, ect will all be at your own expence. A Legal business gets to write all of this off as operating costs.

Also you limit yourself to only working the residential market as no commercial property owner is going to let someone without insurance do work on thier property.

Those that are operate illegally are only hurting themselves, end of story.

[thefed]

Those of you that are looking at being legal as too much of an expence need to realize it's actually costing you more money per year to run an illegal business then it does to run a legal business.

An illegal business isn't going to be able to write off any of their expences. All of your equipment costs, repairs, fuel, marketing, vehicle costs, office supplies, ect will all be at your own expence. A Legal business gets to write all of this off as operating costs.





I'm not condoning tax evasion, but I suspect you are confused as to how taxes are paid. "Writing off" something means you deduct those expenses from your total income, thus lowering your taxable income. You have to have something to write off against, ie profits.

So, we have LCO A and LCO B. A is 100% legit/legal/taxpaying, and LCO B is not. Say both grossed $40k. Say both have the same expenses for equipment, marketing, fuel etc. of $15k. that means LCO A will be paying taxes on hios $25k profit whereas LCO B would be paying taxes on....nothing. So LCO A ends up with maybe $18-20k profit, and LCO B ends up with $25k. So who made more $$ in the above example?

Of course LCO B will/might pay more in the long run...we all know that. But it's the misinformation given on these boards that confuse so many. Not that I disagree with the above poster's position, BUT be sure to give the right info.


On another note, I apologize for the hostility...I just get aggrevated easily...and on a website it's hard for me to get my point across one post at a time lol. I get defensive when someone infers that I'm not legit...becuse they know nothing about me. They ASSume this because I have a different way to look at things. I don't try to squeeze water out of a rock, instead I'd rather take the rock with me and go find a river. My point is that yes, we all know that the lowballers and illegitimate lco's hurt prices etc etc....but instead of complaining, combat it by making your LCO all it can be.

That's all

[Wells]

Thats a good example of two companies that are pulling a profit but lets assume that both of these are startup companies (which many of these guys are) and both are showing a first year loss. The legitimate company is going to catch a break from the goverment and receive a tax refund where the illegal company is on his one for the loss.

Many new companies feel that they are making a profit but the truth is many don't even know what their true expences are.

[PROCUT1]

If youre going to compete in an unskilled labor trade that anyone can get into with a visa card and a dream, you can only expect so much out of it.

You can mow a lawn, so can I, so can my wife, so can my mother, so can the kid next door, and the laid off factory worker, and the mexican, and every other person with legs on this planet.

How much do you think that service is worth?

You all complain that you make less than plumbers, mechanics, HVAC guys etc.... Those are SKILLED TRADES....You MOW GRASS...

Those guys would be insulted to think that a guy that pushes a mower would try and compare their business to his.

If you want to make the money of a skilled tradesman, acquire the SKILLS. Then go do it.

I dont care how much regulation they put in this industry, as long as grandma can do your job, it aint gonna be worth "top dollar"

Either realize that and adapt or fail


If youre worried about little Johnny mowing a few lawns in his neighborhood as your "competition" you better rethink your plans.

I sold my residential mowing business for that reason. I have abilities that are of much better use in a different market than picking up scraps dealing with residential lawns.

[Stillwater]

If youre going to compete in an unskilled labor trade that anyone can get into with a visa card and a dream, you can only expect so much out of it.

You can mow a lawn, so can I, so can my wife, so can my mother, so can the kid next door, and the laid off factory worker, and the mexican, and every other person with legs on this planet.

How much do you think that service is worth?

You all complain that you make less than plumbers, mechanics, HVAC guys etc.... Those are SKILLED TRADES....You MOW GRASS...

Those guys would be insulted to think that a guy that pushes a mower would try and compare their business to his.

If you want to make the money of a skilled tradesman, acquire the SKILLS. Then go do it.

I dont care how much regulation they put in this industry, as long as grandma can do your job, it aint gonna be worth "top dollar"

Either realize that and adapt or fail


If youre worried about little Johnny mowing a few lawns in his neighborhood as your "competition" you better rethink your plans.

I sold my residential mowing business for that reason. I have abilities that are of much better use in a different market than picking up scraps dealing with residential lawns.

Well Said...........

[PROCUT1]

Ever wonder why a plumber or electrician with a van and a toolbox makes a hell of a lot more per hour than you guys showing up with F-550 super diesel, enclosed trailer, ztr, big crew $100,000 rigs?

[GreenT]

Let me remind everyone the original subject of this thread:


i cant beleive it, the first 5 threads i read today are all by people who are obviously not running a legal business....

the information is available, either get legal or get the hell out......



Without speaking for Dave, I'm sure he was shocked at the number of people that come to this site asking for advice and information and are clearly not legit nor have any plans to become legit.

I'm also sure that he felt his comment would start an outporing of agreement from his fellow legitimate LCOs on the site instead of all this bickering about lowballers, little johnnys, and lack of skills (thanks PROCUT1, I'm so glad you joined the discussion :dizzy: :dizzy: and I'm also glad that thanks to your "abilities" you no longer have to be picking up scraps)

Now I don't know daveintoledo but let me try to demonstrate in as simple a way I can think of the implications of his comment:

Suppose that magically, all of the sudden every LCO out there became 100% legit. Do you think anyone would bid a $45 property at $15 then?

Think about it.

[thefed]

Well Said...........

+1


.......

[thefed]

Thats a good example of two companies that are pulling a profit but lets assume that both of these are startup companies (which many of these guys are) and both are showing a first year loss. The legitimate company is going to catch a break from the goverment and receive a tax refund where the illegal company is on his one for the loss.

Many new companies feel that they are making a profit but the truth is many don't even know what their true expences are.




Are you saying then that a company who shows a net loss will receive (free) money from the government? Or do you mean that they will get THEIR $$ back which they paid in quarterly? And would this apply to a self employed person as well as a corp?

Just wondering...I've only showed a net loss on a business while I still had w-2 income so i wouldnt know.

Thanks

[PROCUT1]

Well if the illegit company is showing a loss there is a real problem.

If you cant make it without insurance, taxes, payroll taxes, comp, and the whole slew of other "overhead" expenses, then there is no hope for you.

I have always said the only way to make "good" money in residential mowing is to stay small and under the table.

Thats the exact reason why people think this is such an easy business.

[SouthernCutter]

ok im sorry, but i read someone put The big legal companies have "professional equiptment", but since when is a scag and exmark and shindaiwa, and stihl not profressional equiptment, i know that some are legal and some are not, im 16 and my parents helped me get licensed and get insurance, and i give them the money for it. I plan on being in this for a long while, not just until im out of college, so i went ahead and got it done. but i dont appreciate you ( im not naming names ) saying that the people who arent legal have non-professional equiptment....so speak for yourself and not others.

[leavesofgrass]

I tend to fall on the going legal side.

Insurance - a must (it will eventually happen to someone, if its you...)

IRS - if you ever get audited (low chance) and the IRS questions income sources (checks) and purchases you could be in a lot of financial hurt (brother in law lost a million dollar a year electronics business through a payroll tax problem, not his faut but his accountant's, nevertheless...)

Gov in general - should someone report you for some reason to any official for an issue, guess what...

Also, consider what it looks like on a resume - started and ran a successful business alone!

The experience working with the government is also worth a pretty nickel (and you may also find out many things about your government and its taxes and regualtions you don't like)


Now, on a purely capitolistic note, running an illigitimate business and lowballing are simply part of the game. Its a combination of risk assessment and income per hour potential. each person decides whether its worth the risk and whether their time is worth x dollars.

Although there is no way of knowing, I have read that the US economy is actually 5-15% larger than it is because of the amount of business transactions that occur in the dark. Cash is nearly impossible to track if moved properly.

I myself will be getting a license and insurance within 30 days (birthday gift from my wife LOL). Right now, I want to keep my electricity from being shut off.