I Want In!!!!!!!

[Pietro]

I want in on pavers. I just wish it were that simple! How did you guys get started? My company is insured, and I alreay know the business aspect of it, like pulling permits and etc.....I just dont have any experience. Long story short, I started with a push lawn mower 2 years ago....now we own 4 machines, and do 100K a year in mowing and small landscape work. Were getting a pesticide lics next year and getting into the cheimcal application too. I really want to learn how to do pavers, but cant find a school or anything. What route should I go as far as learning? Anyone out in central jersey that wants an extra set of hands? Obviously once we get into it, we will start with tiny jobs, but eventually Id like to work up to larger ones......even if its years down the road......I wanna get my feet wet, and need you guys to help me get started! My partner and I want to let our business grow, but Im tired of sending my clients elsewhere for work we arent capable of doing yet. - Pete

[paponte]

Check with your suppliers. They should hold hands on classes throughout the season. Sign up and get some pointers, then buy a pallet and materials and play around to get your feet wet. Hands on is the only way to learn IMO.

[Surf'n'Turf]

Cook college in New Brunswick offers a one day paver class, this might be a good place to get started:

http://www.cookce.rutgers.edu/brochures/pdfs/CONTRACTORS.PDF

[neversatisfiedj]

Calm down grasshopper !! Here ya go.

http://www.paverschool.com/

[forestfireguy]

I'd offer you a spot on one of our crews but we are dry on paver jobs right now. Ask Mrusk, I think he said he had a job coming up with a really tight timeline to finish before a freeze. If this changes.............

[DGomez]

I will be attending this school in December
thanks for the info
Daniel Gomez


Calm down grasshopper !! Here ya go.

http://www.paverschool.com/

[Team-Green L&L]

Pavetech's Paverschool is real nice (paverschool.com) and ICPI (icpi.org) has a great introductory 8 hr. course. Just don't think that the classroom and 1 successful project makes you a hardscaper. I had that thinking and failed (hired guys that were more competent than me). Now I can get out there with the best of them, but the classroom sure didn't teach me much.

Sure, you'll be able to post intelligent threads on this site by attending an 8 hr. course, but taking $10-15K of someone else's money...I'd practice at home and on family's homes for a couple projects before I'd do that.

Just remember the definition of profit: "The reward for RISK taken".

By knowing that you should also know that, "the greater the RISK, the greater the reward..."

I wish you success in your new services.

[McKeeLand]

You know, so many people think hardscaping is some kind of gold mine or the get rich quick business. The sad truth is that it is becoming harder and harder to get the money you need to do the jobs the right way and still make a profit. Partly because everyone is jumping on the bandwagon with little or no expericane pricing job way to cheap and doing inferior work.

i don't want to come off as a jerk here, but so many guys see what we do and think they should be doing it too. This business is not for everyone, it has taken me and i am sure a lot the other guys on here years to get where we are. I for one hated doing pavers years ago when i first started in the business, mainly because i worked by myself mostly the first 2 years. However as pavers became more and more popular i had to learn to love them. Eventually i saw the light and how much potential there was with hardscaping and now its my passion. (Hiring employees to carry bricks helped too.)

Definitely take it slow, learn to price and build the right way, and if its truly your passion you will succeed at it.

I currently do hardscaping for a landscaper who tried a few hardscaping jobs and realized it wasn't what he wanted to pursue. This works great for him, i do the hardscaping and he does the landscaping. In return i refer him for any maintenance work i get. Just because you do landscaping doesn't mean you have to do hardscaping.

[mrusk]

You know, so many people think hardscaping is some kind of gold mine or the get rich quick business. The sad truth is that it is becoming harder and harder to get the money you need to do the jobs the right way and still make a profit. Partly because everyone is jumping on the bandwagon with little or no expericane pricing job way to cheap and doing inferior work.

i don't want to come off as a jerk here, but so many guys see what we do and think they should be doing it too. This business is not for everyone, it has taken me and i am sure a lot the other guys on here years to get where we are. I for one hated doing pavers years ago when i first started in the business, mainly because i worked by myself mostly the first 2 years. However as pavers became more and more popular i had to learn to love them. Eventually i saw the light and how much potential there was with hardscaping and now its my passion. (Hiring employees to carry bricks helped too.)

Definitely take it slow, learn to price and build the right way, and if its truly your passion you will succeed at it.

I currently do hardscaping for a landscaper who tried a few hardscaping jobs and realized it wasn't what he wanted to pursue. This works great for him, i do the hardscaping and he does the landscaping. In return i refer him for any maintenance work i get. Just because you do landscaping doesn't mean you have to do hardscaping.



Wait! You mean hardscaping is not a goldmine or a get rich quick skeme?!!?

I'd honestly say its an extremely difficult business to make money in. Just because you can run a successful maintenance company, does not qualify you to run a successfull hardscape company. The equipment needed is expensive. The workers need are expenesive. Honestly there is nothing cheap about it.

And then you need to compete with guys still charging ten bucks a sq foot.

[LB1234]

You know, so many people think hardscaping is some kind of gold mine or the get rich quick business. The sad truth is that it is becoming harder and harder to get the money you need to do the jobs the right way and still make a profit. Partly because everyone is jumping on the bandwagon with little or no expericane pricing job way to cheap and doing inferior work.

Agreed.

However, I hope you don't feel everyone entering this business is doing it for the get rich quick scheme or if they can do it I can do it attitudee. I started doing pavers a few years back along with some decorative SRWs. I guess you can say that I jumped on the bandwagon as well. I'm trying to get into hardscaping more and more but I'm finding it extremely difficult to compete. I really do like hardscaping and I can see myself leaving the maintenance side of things or having a seperate division or crew to do that. Problem is that I'm too high price wise but I refuse to do the work for what the "going rate" (man do I hate that term:cry: ) is.

I'm kinda in the "what came first the chicken or the egg?" stage. I want to get more experience but I don't want to lose money either.

God do I love owning my own business....

[McKeeLand]

Of course everyone is not doing this for the reasons i said, but a lot are and those are the ones that get to me. i am not passing judgement on Pietro, but merely advising him on what i see going on in the industry right now. We have more competition than ever, and a demand for the work slowing down.

For crying out load, we had a tree surgeon start up a hardscaping division this year! :cry:

[mrusk]

Mckee- My favorite is the company that advertise "Roofing, windows, siding, and pavers."

[McKeeLand]

Dont forget ponds too!

[shovelracer]

The way the real estate market is going now a days, all luxury services are slowing down. People are tightening their belts and real companies aren't seeing the amount of business they would like to see. This is why I believe in offering a few luxury services combined with a few essential services. And I'm not talking about lawn maintenance cause that is a luxury. Unfortunately I cant share my secret cause the gnomes will get me in my sleep.

What I can say is that there are far more companies doing bad work around here, than good work. So it has become "normal" to expect your paver's to sink or heave after a few years. And almost no one knows any different. Just the other day I ripped up an 18 month old walk that had heaved and sunk. Underneath we found only 1/4" of stone dust on top of clay. When I asked the owner why he didn't try to have it warrantied, he replied "cause my job put the company out of business". (It should have been a 100K, but was done for 10K over material. 2 guys 10 months, long story.) Even worse one local company has a walk with 'wedgies' everywhere as their home page, and another multimillion dollar company just did a neighbors pool patio for a claimed $10/ft.

Everyone has to start somewhere, and even I have been guilty of the $10 walk in the past. I no longer will do "what the customer wants" work, and have brought my quality and pricing up to industry standards. I am working on the education part, and have actually had to turn away a few jobs because of these changes. I have also lost several to "do it yourselfers" and handyman $10 companies. On the other hand, I am starting to gain recognition in higher priced areas that demand this quality. I was not in denial of my problem, just unaware as I had been working for bad companies since the mid 90's. Long before there was any kind of standards with interlock. Heck I remember seeing catalogs back then that described every installation as 4" base, 6" for drives and no filter fabric. See so the problem is not old or new problem at hand is the lack of national standards and forced education. The remainder of the problem is that so called "real" hardscape companies gawk at the small stuff and shun anyone who attempts it so these jobs go back to the $10 handyman. You see it is a vicious cycle.

[LB1234]

Of course everyone is not doing this for the reasons i said, but a lot are and those are the ones that get to me. i am not passing judgement on Pietro, but merely advising him on what i see going on in the industry right now. We have more competition than ever, and a demand for the work slowing down.

For crying out load, we had a tree surgeon start up a hardscaping division this year! :cry:

sorry my post was not meant in a negative way:drinkup: :drinkup: :drinkup:

[McKeeLand]

no worries, i did not take it negatively.:)

[Pietro]

Ok here it goes.

I completly understand the cost of the tools......Just because we do mostly maintenance and installs doesnt mean I havent invested a lot. We have 2 lawn mowers that are valued @ about 20K combined. I know bobcats and saws, and etc are expensive.....thats not my concern. Everyone is making it seem like I wanna get rich off of hardscaping........I dont expect to, but I have plenty of clients asking about small patios and walkways, things we could definetly handle. I would not go near a big job until we had years of experience under the belt, and were capable of doing the job. My compaines bids are usually higher than the other guys, but youre getting what youre paying for. We do a great job. Just because I want to get into pavers doesnt mean I wanna be doing 100K jobs right away..........I just want to lean more, so I can offer more. I had about 10 full installation jobs this year who asked about pavers, and we couldnt do them, they were small paver jobs, but we stayed away. Im definetly going to look into that school, eventually I wanna get into doing the work. However, when we start, dont expect us to be the low-ballers. We give nothing other than 100% quality work, and I have a large clientbase that will recommend our work any day.

[mrusk]

Pietro- I have a job site a hour north of you, if you want to come out on a saturday and get some hands on experience you are welcome too.

[prizeprop]

Ok here it goes.

I completly understand the cost of the tools......Just because we do mostly maintenance and installs doesnt mean I havent invested a lot. We have 2 lawn mowers that are valued @ about 20K combined. I know bobcats and saws, and etc are expensive.....thats not my concern. Everyone is making it seem like I wanna get rich off of hardscaping........I dont expect to, but I have plenty of clients asking about small patios and walkways, things we could definetly handle. I would not go near a big job until we had years of experience under the belt, and were capable of doing the job. My compaines bids are usually higher than the other guys, but youre getting what youre paying for. We do a great job. Just because I want to get into pavers doesnt mean I wanna be doing 100K jobs right away..........I just want to lean more, so I can offer more. I had about 10 full installation jobs this year who asked about pavers, and we couldnt do them, they were small paver jobs, but we stayed away. Im definetly going to look into that school, eventually I wanna get into doing the work. However, when we start, dont expect us to be the low-ballers. We give nothing other than 100% quality work, and I have a large clientbase that will recommend our work any day.
I would think you could be subbing these jobs out and working with the sub to learn what you can.

[McKeeLand]

I would think you could be subbing these jobs out and working with the sub to learn what you can.

I think that this is a great idea. Find a good contractor that only is interested in the hardscaping and have him do some of these jobs that your not ready to tackle. See if you can work with him or observe the process.

[Pietro]

Yea I thought about that, but I dont really know too many guys. Im young for this business and dont know too many people. Its hard, because im not willing to just sub someone out and kinda risk my reputation. Ive been looking for subs, just cant seem to find any smaller companies that would be interested. The larger ones are so booked they couldnt care less.

[mrusk]

Yea I thought about that, but I dont really know too many guys. Im young for this business and dont know too many people. Its hard, because im not willing to just sub someone out and kinda risk my reputation. Ive been looking for subs, just cant seem to find any smaller companies that would be interested. The larger ones are so booked they couldnt care less.

Pirtro- Just sent me a PM and you can come work with me in your off season. I am doing a job in essex county 1 hour north of freehold. We will be working into the winter long after you stop cutting grass. If you don't mind working for peanuts your welcome to come work with us for a few weeks and get a good introduction into hardscape construction.

Matt

[forestfireguy]

Matt,

I grew up in Essex County, which town is that job in??????

[mrusk]

Matt,

I grew up in Essex County, which town is that job in??????


I am in the ghettos of Newark. I had to hire a extra guy just to sit in my truck and guard it! The other day some mofo walking by my job site picked up my wacker 3050b and just started running down the street with it!!! That thing ways 400lbs so i just let him take it since i figured i didn't want to mess with him.

[jonmcmeen]

After pretty much “Lurking” on the Hardscape forum for about 2 years, I thought that this would a good topic to respond to and now join the crowd of fellow hardscapers!

Pietro- your situation was just like mine was about 3 years ago-Instead of being a lawn guy; I was just a plant guy. I had been since 1995 when I first started landscaping. I only did planting. I knew everything about planting (I know pretty much every type of plant that grows in Northern, NJ.) I only LIKED planting. And I was a damn good salesman of planting jobs. What happened over the last few years was that many of my customers began asking for hardscape work- patios, walkways, etc. as part of a bigger landscape design and installation. I didn’t want to lose the business because of my lack of knowledge in the area of hardscape. I did know a few basic principals of hardscape, but not much more. (I.e. that you need a sub-base and it must be compacted when installing pavers…….even the idea that there was actually a “machine” that did compaction was foreign to me at the time….ha ha) Well, to make a long story short, one day I just told a customer that: “yes, a paver walkway would look good here too!” Since they liked my previous work, they just told me to do it. I first panicked, then I figured out that, heck, let me just do it, take my best shot at it and LEARN from it. My point here is that I learned hardscape by fire. Yes, I will admit quite simply that I learned from my MANY mistakes. You name a mistake, I made it when it came to pavers! (Compaction issues, pattern issues, edge restraint issues, etc., etc., etc).

But this really crazy thing happened: I started learning the right way of doing things. Since I had made so many errors before, I started actually understanding what not to do, and that is how I learned hardscape in a nutshell. Nobody is born with perfect knowledge of hardscape installations. I am most certain that all the members of the hardscape forum have many “skeletons in their closet” (I .e. hardscape jobs they did which makes them “cringe” by just thinking about them, and even more so, by actually driving by while in their truck! I actually think I still have a few of these skeletons displayed on my website…ha ha!)

But one thing that is also important to state is the great value of Lawnsite.com. I actually think MRusk touched on this point a while ago by stating along the lines that you can learn so much from reading the posts on Lawnsite that it stops you before you make mistakes. As I found, lawnsite is truly is an educational tool. I will admit that I have “borrowed” a few ideas from fellow hardscapers and have incorporated them into my own designs!

So my final point for you Pietro is that you should spend some time on Lawnsite reading the posts, and ESPECIALLY reading the constructive criticism that many members give when pictures of jobs are posted. (That is a GREAT way to learn what NOT to do) After you do some reading, sell a hardscape job, jump into it, and see what you can do. It ain’t going to be perfect, but at least it is a start! And I assure you, the next one will be a little better, the next one even better, and eventually you will have a great portfolio like some of the ones on this site-DVS Hardscaper, CGLAND, Etc., Etc, Etc.

Well, that is my 2 cents from a fellow Lawnsite lurker working in Sussex County, NJ. (i.e. MRUSK territory, along with a few others on this site……)