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View Full Version : Wheeled skid verse CTL


Gravel Rat
10-25-2007, 01:30 PM
I have been watching a project going on at one of my jobs. They are replacing some utilities. The contractor rented a brandnew Cat skid steer on tires to move material around his Cat CTL is on another job.

The rubber tired machine is horrible its a typical skid steer on pavement the poor operator is bounced around. I asked him is your back sore he said yes :laugh:

The CTL was on the same job doing the first part earlier this year it glided over the pavement smooth as can be. The operator on that machine wasn't thrown around the cab like a rag doll.

Even thou the parts on a CTL wear faster the CTL is more productive and the operator isn't bashed around in the operators seat. Even the contractor said the wheeled skid is horrible.

After watching a CTL operate and a wheeled skid operate in the same conditions (dry pavement) the CTL is worth every penny and extra maintenance.

Dirt Digger2
10-25-2007, 05:46 PM
on dry pavement its worth it to train an operator on a wheeled machine so he doesn't get bounced around, we never take our takeuchi to jobs where there will be a lot of pavement work...the good old case 1840 goes to those jobs

Fieldman12
10-25-2007, 06:02 PM
Your better off leaving a CTL at home when working on pavement. It will wear one out quick and really no added advantage on pavement other than a little smoother. A wheel machine may be a little more bouncy but way cheaper to replace tires than tracks. Your better off if you can to put some dirt down and turn on it if you can. It works way better for both machines.

goatboy67
10-25-2007, 07:01 PM
Case Ride control does wonders on pavement...no bouncing at all.

crab
10-25-2007, 07:40 PM
Rat,have you run anything other than you're mouth in the last 2 years?????:canadaflag:

RockSet N' Grade
10-25-2007, 08:17 PM
I bought a new wheeled skid and put loegering vts on it.......so now we have tracks. Got only about 225 hrs on it in the last two months, I appreciate the smoothness of the ride. So far, the tracks are holding up well.......minor chunkage holes from going over rocks, a few slices ( again from rock shards) but all and all.........nice. Crab, as for your post........most inappropriate.

SiteSolutions
10-25-2007, 09:58 PM
I would call that impolite but not necessarily inappropriate:laugh:

Gravel Rat
10-26-2007, 03:09 AM
The guy running the skid is sore he goes home in pain every day. Even the other operator who has more experience hates the rubber tired skid. The skid is a brandnew machine the tires haven't been worn in. It is joystick controls I guess that takes time to get used to but their CTL is joystick control.

Even with a skim of dirt on the pavement doesn't help the skid to steer any better it still bounces around. They tried spilling some material on the ground to give the tires some slip. There is more black marks on the ground from the tires than there was from the CTL when they had it on site earlier in the year.

We were talking to a guy that does pavement grinding he said all he uses is CTL machines. He was curious to see what was going on.

The CTL moves around so nice and easy I think the extra wear and tear on the undercarriage is well worth it.

I have run old style bobcats with tires for 8 hours a day it felt like I was run over by a truck.

crab
10-26-2007, 07:38 AM
relax its a joke,gravel rats posts are notoriously long and unresolved.

dozerman21
10-26-2007, 09:07 AM
on dry pavement its worth it to train an operator on a wheeled machine so he doesn't get bounced around, we never take our takeuchi to jobs where there will be a lot of pavement work...the good old case 1840 goes to those jobs


Same here except Deere for the CTL, and 1845C for the Case!:drinkup:

That guy is going to wear those tracks out quick. Get someone who knows how to run a skid. I don't find them bouncy on pavement. He's probably trying to go too fast.

Gravel Rat
10-26-2007, 05:11 PM
Hey Crab bugger off your probably some 10 year old wannabe. This job I'am talking about is real you want to talk to the operator running the skid steer.

I have been around heavy equipment since I was 3 years old when dad used to take me to work.

I don't know what a new set of tracks would cost for a CTL but to replace tires on a skid steer is atleast 1200 dollars. A backhoe is too big to move material around on the site. A 20,000lb excavator is doing the digging loading directly into a dump truck while the skid steer is moving the sand and road base to fill in the trench after the pipe is being layed.

Laying about 550 feet of pipe the trench is 48 inches wide 30-36 inches deep. The total job cost is probably 35,000-40,000 dollars. There is 17,000 dollars worth of machine time into the job now and its not even finished yet. The backfill material is about 3 grand to pave the area is about 26,000 for a 4 foot wide 550 foot long strip.

The digging has been easy so far but the rest of the area is supposed to be rocky so if they hit rock then they have to hire a blaster at 500 dollars per hour.

ksss
10-26-2007, 05:54 PM
The old saying "smooth is fast" certainly applies here. It is easy to say it is worth the expense of increased track wear until the bill comes for the tracks. You then look back and realize that the job did not cover the added expense. There are places where the CTL will shine, I cant see that job being one of them. Anytime your running tracks without seeing increased productivity over tires, your wasting money. The CTL costs per hour are higher, you should be seeing some additional return for your increased expenses.

Lazer_Z
10-26-2007, 06:06 PM
KSSS, Correct me if I'm wrong, but the average cost to replace tracks on a CTL is $2k+ is it not?

Rob

ksss
10-26-2007, 06:39 PM
Yea, per side for the nonCAT tracks. What are you trying say?

Dirt Digger2
10-26-2007, 06:44 PM
KSSS, Correct me if I'm wrong, but the average cost to replace tracks on a CTL is $2k+ is it not?

Rob

both tracks being replaced on our takeuchi cost $2200 and the boss bought them when they were on "sale" 10% off

Lazer_Z
10-26-2007, 06:48 PM
KSSS, what I was trying to do was make a point to Rat about the cost of track replacement on a CTL. He keeps yapping that the contractor and he would choose to run a CTL on concrete no matter what. Thanks for the info Dirt Digger 2.

Rob

crab
10-26-2007, 06:58 PM
In reference to the original post, all that can be blamed on a poor operator,there is no way i choose a ctl over SS on pavement ,it does not make sense.I feel this is just another example of you pointing out what every one else is doing wrong,when you cant even get yourself sorted ,sorry if i don't take you seriously.It was meant as a joke. I don't recall ever seeing a picture of anything you've done[even for that government job of yours]but you're welcome to think I'm 10. I'm glad you're dad got you into heavy equipment[welcome to the club]but you post and post about the economy ,and these dumb companies ,but they are doing it, sorry you are not .So what have you run in the last to years other than you're PC?.Best wishes:canadaflag:

SiteSolutions
10-26-2007, 11:26 PM
The machine is rented, anyway, so tire cost (which shouldn't exceed 500 - 600 bucks, btw) vs. track cost isn't really an issue directly. Of course, the much higher cost of track replacement is a factor in that it helps to determine the rental price for the machine. The skid will be cheaper to rent, and if the guy running it will be patient and try to be smooth instead of beating the machine like a rented mule, he will probably save his back and the rental company's tires.

I've only got a CTL and while I would probably not rent a SS to do a job where i was on asphalt or concrete, I would rather have the tires in that situation if I could. If for no other reason than you can make wheelie turns when empty which saves a lot of tire!:laugh:

Seriously. Tires are a lot cheaper than tracks. And a skid steer -properly run- will work great on paved surfaces to the point that there's no justification to choose a CTL (unless it's all you have, like some folks)

Gravel Rat
10-27-2007, 03:57 AM
Skid steer rate is around 73 to 80 dollars per hour. The contractor doing the job is the only one in the area with a CTL some of the building contractors have their own rubber tired skid. The rental shops that rent tools have bobcats usually is 250 a day to rent a 7000lb skid.

The skid steer business was never really that good in this area because a wheeled skid gets stuck too easy. The contractor with the CTL keeps the machine busy as it can go where a wheeled skid can't.

tnmtn
10-27-2007, 11:00 AM
something i haven't understood is the lack of enthusiasm for the all wheel steer machines ie: A300, A220 bobcats. it has worked very well on my B300. spoils you for sure. tire wear becomes very minimal. wonder if folks that went that way are having reliability issues. also suprised another company hasn't come out with their version yet. any thoughts?
good luck,

ksss
10-27-2007, 03:26 PM
I have spoke with a BC engineering friend of mine about them. There is a lot that goes into those machines that affects the entire line of machines from a manufacturing standpoint. I think everyone else is willing to conceed that niche market to BC. I don't think they sell enough of them to entice anyone into entering into that market. They have sold a few of them here. They are no big seller by any means.

Gravel Rat
10-27-2007, 04:22 PM
I have watched a skid steer with the over tire tracks and it makes a difference in the bouncing.

When I was running 763 Bobcat wheeled skid with the old style yankem sticks it didn't matter how easy you pulled on them the machine bounced you around.

The skid the contractor rented is a 226 Cat.

I'am glad I wasn't the guy running the skid I don't think my back could take all that bouncing around. Running a rubber tired backhoe is bad enough you get bounced around in them pretty good.

I can see the new joystick controll in the skid steers would take some getting used too

tallrick
10-27-2007, 04:31 PM
Most companies here use solid tires on pavement, and they have a lot less bounce, but a hard hit on your back when going over rocks or in potholes. I don't know how fast you guys are going but if you slow down a bit and steer more smoothly you won't be bouncing around. I know from experience that the wheeled skid steer is more efficient on pavement and takes less fuel, sees less wear. As mentioned earlier when the bucket is empty tire scuffing is minimal, and wheelies eliminate it all together. A light machine like an RC-30 will not wear out the tracks as fast as a heavier one, but I would only use a tracked machine on mud, dirt or grass. You can't beat tires on pavement, and the solids lasted a long time. Tracks just take too much power to turn, and when they get cut up by debris, they quickly tear out chunks getting all that friction on pavement.

Gravel Rat
10-27-2007, 07:32 PM
The traveling the distance isn't the problem is the tight working conditions like digging out of the pile of bedding sand or road base there isn't a whole lot of room to work. Then moving the material to the trench you can only get to one side.

If the job permitted the alowance to dump material close to the trench there would be no need for a skid steer. The excavator would beable to take a scoop with the clean up bucket and dump it in the trench. The excavator couldn't stop digging the skid brought the sand for the pipe layers they did the piping and compacting.

The material dug out of the trench never hit the ground it went directly into the truck and dumped. As they worked along there was very little clean up to do besides sweeping. The engineers spec's said the native soil can not be used to backfill the trench. It is like that with 90% of the utility work done around here. Any time there is any utility work its a good chance to get free fill dirt. A water line project down the road from me a guy got 60 yards of dirt I think he paid for the trucking.

Most muni waterlines a excavator backfills the trench they walk the excavator to the pile of gravel with a clean up bucket (1 yard) and beds and backfills.

Back to the contractor with the skid steer I imagine if the tires on the skid steer were not brandnew rubber it wouldn't be so bad.

The scrap yards use skid steers with solid smooth tires and they do bounce alot less.