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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-30-2007, 02:33 PM
Things that make you go hmmmm....


No comment, no blame. Just a couple of scary photos for Haloween.

NightScenes
10-30-2007, 03:00 PM
James, are those gas valves under those transformers????

bmwsmity
10-30-2007, 03:27 PM
holy crap man!

is that an old unique trans?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-30-2007, 04:07 PM
James, are those gas valves under those transformers????

No that is a water valve I'm sure. These were pictures sent to me by another party.

JoeyD
10-30-2007, 05:31 PM
Why contribute to someone's smear campaign James?

Gregg and I discussed this in private yesterday. He recieved this photo with an email from one of our "real professional" competitors sales reps with this note.

"...everyone agrees to promote a certain way that does not
> necessarily comply with UL and NEC, but is gray enough that no one
> really cares.............that is, until someone's home burns down or
> someone is killed. I took the attached pictures in the garage of a
> house in Modesto. U transformer, melted wiring, did not trip their
> glass fuse, and good thing the homeowner was home at the time this
> occurred! "

Number one 15v or 22v had nothing to do with this. The NEC has nothing to do with this as the NEC will clearly state that 30v or less is considered LV. So not only is this rep un educated he is also a slime ball for using a smear campaign as his sales pitch.

Now it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that this job was either wired up by the homeowner or a moron contractor. Either way the peerson has no clue about code or how to perform a professional install.

This unit he is using is a Unique TF. It does not have secondary fusing on this model which is available from us. we do promote secondary protection! Either way it is pretty clear to me that the failure point is at a splice connection made by more than likely a loose wire nut. If you look at the lower photo you can clearly see there was indeed a splice connection that is the failure point. The transofrmer only shows smoke damage from the insulation that has burned off which burned due to the arching connection. This is not a high amperage short so it would not trip the primary glass fuse.

Bottom line is, I said it before, a TF is only as good as it's installer. I could recreate this same situation with A Nightscaping or FX transformer all day. And if I was a "bash my competitor" sales guy like this rep is I would post up the hundred photos of burnt up Nightscaping, Kichler, Hadco, FX, and Focus TF's. This can happen to any unit.

So in all I say thank you James for contributing to this rep's smear campaign. I wont post my "dirty" competitor photo's becuase I choose to make my sales pitch by discussing MY PRODUCTS, not my competitors. everyone knows that I will give an honest opinion, and if I cant say something nice about my competitor I wont say anything at all. This is a philosophy taught to all of our trained reps and is LAW at Unique.

As I told Gregg yesterday when he politley emailed this to me, I am imediatly turned off by a sales person when he makes his whole pitch bashing his competitor. I am especially turned off when this is the example he uses and he clearly states false facts. I challenge any of you to show me a burned home, or injured person due to my products. I also lay out the challenge for any of you who question our saftey or legality by getting your expert and confrencing in with myself and Nate Mullen. (you guys all have access to our numbers) No Nightscaping rep or FX Rep or any competitor of ours will ever do this. Why? We dont know, we can only assume that they know they cant BS us because we come with the facts. They also know that the scare tactics they use are BS and thats all they have.

This pissed me off yesterday when I saw this and after talking with Gregg I let it go, but now I am heated again. These sorry sales reps and there smear campaigns have been going on since our enception and reality is it drives Unique's buisness and it makes me want to work 10 times harder when I hear and see it. Fact is we must be hurting them somewhere for these guys to care so much about trying to bash us to customers!

So I guess I should thank this rep, becuase for as many guys who believe this crap and turn away from Unique, there will be just as many guys who come to us with questions on this and become Unique advocates becuase they realize they were lied to by uneducated sales people and that we are real lighting guys who care about this industry!!

I rest my case, tell this coward who sent this email out that he can contact Myself and Nate at 760-802-3737 or 760-580-4980.

JoeyD
10-30-2007, 05:44 PM
I blame Mitsubishi for this. If they only had a safer driver side impact zone.

Should the driver be mad at Mitsubishi?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-30-2007, 05:45 PM
Joey! Chill Out Man! Holy Cow... did you read my post on this? I clearly stated no comment, no blame. I simply thought that we all should see these photos. They are an example of what CAN happen and what we are all up against.

As for all the nitty gritty details in your 'rebuttal'... well hey nobody had any background there until you spilled the beans! Talk about too much information man.

Seriously, I am not contributing to any smear campaign in any way. I had no details and I posted no details....

Similarly, no apologies from me, as I don't think I did anything wrong here. I simply wanted us to see what CAN happen and what type of work is out there and we are all up against. These are the images that put the entire LV lighting industry down. These are the results of obviously shoddy work. This is what we must stop and ensure that we defend ourselves and the industry from on a daily basis.

Not everything is personal Joey.... To be dead honest, I have never come across similar photos before. Scouts Honour!

JoeyD
10-30-2007, 05:52 PM
Well I apologize to you james. The way it seemed to me is that you were trying to hide the identity of the one who sent it to you. Gregg explained it was a competitor who sent this to him so for all I know the rep sent it to you. SO I do apologize for getting on your case here. But I have been dealing with this kind of crap from our competiton for 12 years and I never get used to it. Show my lock and load socket that failed, show my broken lens, show my transformer that burned up and killed somebody because of no seconday protection. But do not make up lies and show this!!

I am sure you all can understand where I am coming from here. I am not afraid of facts, I learn from facts. Lies I dispise!

But I have no quarral with you James, only the slime ball trying to make a buck on this crap!!

Joey D.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-30-2007, 05:58 PM
Here is another nasty transformer installation! This one I know all about....

It was done by a licensed electrician in my area. They installed 3 of these Marcus 300W tranformers inside boxes and then buried them in the ground! That ground was composed of mostly pine needle mulch and fresh pine needles. There was no secondary protection and clearly the wire connections through the box leaked.

The client was very happy to have me come to the site, rip the entire mess out, and install a new, safe, to code, lighting system.

Worst part is... this EC continues to install LV lighting in this manner to this very day.

Mike M
10-30-2007, 06:47 PM
Wow, I wonder what the guy in the red Mitsubishi did to get Joe mad.

Lite4
10-30-2007, 06:50 PM
Wow, I don't think that there was an extrication ordered on that accident. What would you exctricate?

bmwsmity
10-30-2007, 08:17 PM
hadco trans. needless to say, the owner of the $1mil home this was installed at was not too happy. notice the maximum tap of 13v.

its amazing how people try to give products bad names when clearly it was not the product that failed, but rather the installer that did.

pete scalia
10-30-2007, 10:12 PM
If in fact it was the Nightscaping rep who was behind this post then perhaps he should take a look at
Post #35 under the "Ryco Engineered transformers" thread

The photo in post #35 is the equivalent to the one in this thread. The taps and wire melted down and this transformer had secondary protection.

So I don't know why he would throw stones when he clearly lives in a glass house.

JoeyD
10-30-2007, 10:25 PM
Ok I want to be clear. I should not have gotten on James case so bad. It was not professional for me to blame him for what someone else did. My guys pass things to me in regards to other products, that is part of the game. But I do not send those pics I get out to my customers to gain sales. I do not know which Manufacturer sent these photos out, all I know is atleast 2 contractors have them and one lives on the west coast and the other in Canada.

To me it is just a cheap shot. But I want to be extra clear here, I do not know which manufacturer started this and frankly I dont care. And I also would never fault a customer or potential customer for what someone else sent them.

James, again I apologize and I hope you understand my point of view as I do understand yours. You guys should not feel like I am going to make a deal if you guys post up a topic and my products show in a negative light.

Joey D.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-30-2007, 11:31 PM
Apology Accepted Joey. I am glad you understand that I was not posting any claim or blame. I didn't even identify the transformer make for that very reason.

It is important for all of us, as professional low voltage lighting installers, to ensure that each and every transformer installation is done in compliance with all local, state and national codes and to the very best of our ability.

There are many 'tools' on the market for us to choose from, most if not all of them are approved and safe when installed properly. Over time installers can get complacent and sometimes take short cuts. We need to guard against this tendency and understand the consequences of poor installation methods.

Have a great day.

Pro-Scapes
10-30-2007, 11:58 PM
Here is another nasty transformer installation! This one I know all about....

It was done by a licensed electrician in my area. They installed 3 of these Marcus 300W tranformers inside boxes and then buried them in the ground! That ground was composed of mostly pine needle mulch and fresh pine needles. There was no secondary protection and clearly the wire connections through the box leaked.

The client was very happy to have me come to the site, rip the entire mess out, and install a new, safe, to code, lighting system.

Worst part is... this EC continues to install LV lighting in this manner to this very day.


Wow now both thoes trans pics are scary. I need to run and get pics of the local hospital install... 350w daisey chained off a 300w malibu trans... no secondary protection of course... but the best part is... one of the wires was laid in the crack of the sidewalk and siliconed in place! at a hospital property!!!! hello... and they declined my proposal of 3500 to replace the 14 fixtures and rework the install due to budget reasons.

I do recall Burt and I digging up a line voltage system much like the buried low voltage pictured by james. SCARY mess inside them boxes... I cant 100% blame the EC tho. Katrina did have a bit to do with the condition of that system. Half of it is still sitting in my shop!

Go Halogen
10-31-2007, 08:00 AM
Joey,

Cardinal sin committed! You let this forum get to you. Shake it off, people know the smear compaigns. It makes you look worse when you flip your lid like that. Take it ez. James was really just trying to show an example of poor installation and sloppy work ethic. I saw that right away. You can not get so upset everytime Unique product is involved in a situation.

Live and learn....

-Andy

JoeyD
10-31-2007, 09:19 AM
Joey,

Cardinal sin committed! You let this forum get to you. Shake it off, people know the smear compaigns. It makes you look worse when you flip your lid like that. Take it ez. James was really just trying to show an example of poor installation and sloppy work ethic. I saw that right away. You can not get so upset everytime Unique product is involved in a situation.

Live and learn....

-Andy

Andy,

Up until this thread I think I have been pretty cool when it comes to Unique critisizm. I have thick skin, but the timing of this post along with what I recieved yesterday is what pushed me over the edge. But I agree and that is why i posted n apology to James and a comment for everyone to see that I in no way want you guys to not discuss Unique weather good or bad. I will learn.

What can I say though, I am Italian!

:drinkup: :drinkup: :hammerhead:

irrig8r
10-31-2007, 11:02 AM
Yesterday was kind of a mess.

I spent all morning doing bookkeeping chores and then I walked away from the computer to make some lunch. When I got back it had turned itself off. Three triesd to get it going and it only sstayed on for a few seconds each time. I'm hoping it's just the power supply, but it's in the shop for diagnostics.

Oh, and then we had a 5.6 temblor last night that kept us on edge for a while waiting for a bigger one...LOL.

So, anyway, I missed this whole discussion.

I'm writing from my g/f's laptop right now.

I sent the pics to both James and Joey. I got them from a manufacturer's rep. Joey and I speculated about how the wire meltdown might have occurred. I think we can agree that there was a splice that might have been bad. The whole nest of wires looks confusing. Not sure what it looked like before the pics were taken.

I think what the other rep was trying to point out was the lack of protection on the secondary. Why would any manufacturer sell a transformer without that as a standard feature?

IMHO, this is where the Fustat shines.

I don't know the specifics of the Fustat in the photo of the NS Powercenter with a wire meltdown that Pete posted... did the Fustat blow on that one?

The rep who sent me this pic said the units had glass fuses which DID NOT blow. I'm assuming he meant on the primary side, but my familiarity with those units is limited so I don't know.

I think what both these photos, the one that (I think) Pete posted, and others in this thread illustrate is that we all have to be vigilant about proper splicing. It's also a good illustration of why it's best to locate transformers outside and away from buildings if at all possible.

One other thing... the rep who sent me the pics said that the homeowner told him that a Unique rep was with the ciontractor when that unit was installed. Joey, maybe you can talk to whoever covers the Modesto, CA area and see what he knows??? Maybe hes has a different recollection of events.

Also, Joey, not sure how long ago those were installed, but maybe you can tell the vintage from the label...

JoeyD
10-31-2007, 11:12 AM
Well in response there, the rep who handles that territory is the longest tenured rep Unique has. I know him very well and for a long time and I can tell you he would never assist in something that horrrific. Again, absolutly false info from the rep. The homeowner may have been mistaken for a distributor rep.

The reason we do not have SF protection as a standard is becuase we leave it up to the installer to choose what they want. Some guys prefer to not have the commons fused at the transformer becuase they individually fuse each run. Again becuase we make our own units and make them in every style we allow the installer to order what he wants. We dont pin him into just what we want him to use or have made then spin it as everything else is against the law and will kill people.

Again those tansformers appear to be perfectly fine, the only thing that is damaged is the foam insulation which burned and blackened the wall. This was not the transformers doing. Could the installer have put in protection to prevent this? ABSOLUTLY, but from the looks of things he had no idea what the word protection even means.

irrig8r
10-31-2007, 11:23 AM
I'll see if I can find out more particulars. I wasn't implying the TFs were bad or at fault. The reasons I asked maybe you could tell how old they were is to pinpoint when they were installed. And you're right, it could have been a distributor's rep.

Check your PMs.

JoeyD
10-31-2007, 11:30 AM
I got it, and I believe you and James in that you were not implying anything. Again my problem is not with you gusy, I would never blame you. But the note that you sent me attached with the photos from the manufacturer rep does imply this is Uniques fault and you cannot deny that. Again my problem is with the rep who makes insinuations such as we could burn a house down or kill people. That is a strong statement and one that could force him into court!

Chris J
10-31-2007, 10:14 PM
Um, since Unique was called out, would it be too much to ask what manufacturers rep it was who started this tiff?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-31-2007, 10:18 PM
Um, since Unique was called out, would it be too much to ask what manufacturers rep it was who started this tiff?

Or... rather then fan the flames (the west coast has had enough of that), why not just let it all die a natural death.

Chris J
10-31-2007, 10:23 PM
That would be fine with me as well. I just get disappointed when someone as genuine as Joey has to be brought into this battle while the original offender lies in the shadows without harm to himself or his company.

Pro-Scapes
11-01-2007, 07:48 AM
That would be fine with me as well. I just get disappointed when someone as genuine as Joey has to be brought into this battle while the original offender lies in the shadows without harm to himself or his company.

thats right on the money. protect the REAL guilty party here. Only in America!