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View Full Version : Just how bad/good are CAT MTL's?


bobcat_ron
11-10-2007, 08:43 PM
I've read everything here and over on www.heavyequipmentforums.com on the ASV system on CAT's MTL machines, just how bad are they?

From what I've read, 50% say bad, reasons; too much up keep and cost of replacing tracks, avoid rocks and sharp objects blah, blah blah.
The other 50% say they are the best for smooth riding and low ground pressure and operator comfort.

This is the way I see it, I have gone through a set of OEM tracks on my T190 at 970 hrs, one side was so worn out that it snapped, cost of replacement was $3800 CAD to replace, since I had already bought and paid off the tracks 1 month prior, it was easy to do. I charge $5 extra an hour due to the CTL's ability to take extra work not usually meant for and smaller machine, but when we're in a pinch, anything that has tracks will suffice.
I never abused my tracks and any cuts in my second pair were from minor mishaps when a rock strayed into my path as it fell out of my bucket on one of my many long hauls over floors and driveways. I am by no means a weekend warrior on these machines and I don't have the mentality of "oh, it can take it, it's built like a f***ing tank....." and just go off into the unknown and do some serious damage.

My line of work that I take has shifted from 75% demolition work to around 25% demo and the rest is clean up and general excavation.
I always keep a garden hose nearby in the wet season to wash the junk and mud that builds up in my T190's undercarriage and I never run over coarse rock with out smoothing it out first and if I do excessive turning on pavement, I dribble some sand or dirt down to decrease the friction.

Upon getting a demo CAT MTL this coming week (assuming they have one, and they trust me) the first place I'm taking it will be the pre-load we are doing now, 3" minus gravel, blasted and crushed in a quarry, sharp rock, but soft and brittle under pressure, I want to see what happens when it gets between the track and rollers, then the mud, where it builds up and how long it takes before it starts to slow the machine down.

If I struck up a deal, I'd be buying a used 247 or 257, the few hours I rack up in a week doesn't justify buying new anymore.

So is it worth it?

Digdeep
11-10-2007, 08:59 PM
In my opinion, based on selling Bobcat's tracked machines against ASV and CAT the suspended system is superior in enough applications against the unsuspended machines that that is the reason I chose the ASV RC50 over a Bobcat or other model. I also personally feel that the ASV machines are better than CAT machines for the following reasons- CAT machines are too heavy for the ASV undercarriages (257), the weight distribution is just like their skid steers with the weight toward the rear 70-30 and it tears up the turf worse than the ASVs(all of them), they have the same ground clearance as a skid steer, they are too wide, their engines aren't matched to the extra weight the undercarriage adds to the machine. I think CAT builds an excellent skid steer, but I have demoed or operated almost all of the track loaders out on the market and I feel that the ASVs are the best across the widest range of applications- they are built to be a tracked machine.

I also think that you have most of the bases covered when it comes to operating techniques. They are tracked machines and shouldn't be operated or maintained just like a skid. I have over 1,500 hours on my tracks and undercarriage (I have only changed 4 rear idlers) and I'm sure I will get 2,000 hours out of these tracks. i think you should give them a try too. You will see a big difference between the ASV and the CAT MTLs when it comes to nimbleness, ground speed, balance, width, rear visibility, etc. Good luck.

AWJ Services
11-10-2007, 10:24 PM
This subject has been beat too death.

The facts are you cannot use the ASV/Cat tracks every where that you use a conventional CTL without added expense.

Also weight plays a large part.
The lighter machines do well with ASV style tracks .
The heavier machines do not have the same success.

Here a Bobcat T190 would in no way be nothing but a light landscaping machine.Grading with it would be pretty much a lost cause because of ground conditions.Same with the RC50.
My point being that ground conditions play a large part in this.
As I said before Cat hates too sell the tracked machines here.
They just do not hold up here.
For DigDeep they do.

Tigerotor77W
11-10-2007, 11:33 PM
I'm curious how the C-series improvements make the UCs...

Construct'O
11-10-2007, 11:54 PM
I'm curious how the C-series improvements make the UCs...

The machine i looked at my dealer looked better ,but still could use improvments as far as i'm concerened.The drive roller is more open ,looks like they would cleaner a lot better.I was comparing to the old model of machine setting right next to the new c series.

I thought i read where they have a heavy duty track that has three rows,instead of just the two, of the lugs(located in the middle of the track) that drive the track.

Replacable wheels that bolt on,to the hubs,just replace the wheel not the whole wheel assembly.Steel idler i think,not sure.

Still have the fulky track tighter tho:hammerhead: .Get with it Cat!!!!!!

They are at least trying.Just depends on if your pocket books is big enough.

By the post on here for hours of use to replace and cost.The tracks for my dozer is cheaper considering! compared to MTL'S i get three times the hours out of my dozer.Thats steel against steel everything:usflag:

Gravel Rat
11-11-2007, 01:08 AM
Are you going to find a used Cat skid on tracks ?

Have you checked with Finnings rental ?

One of the local contractors he has a Cat CTL and runs the machine on all surfaces. He doesn't get into mud like some of you we don't get much deep mud.

You say your moving 3 inch minus isn't that a little heavy work for a skid steer ?

It is crushed 3 inch minus usually around here 3 inch minus is just screened dirt so its round rock and what ever. If its true blasted rock I sure hate to see what that would do to rubber tracks. Blast rock on tires is enough to gash good chunks out of them.

What about a small trackloader like a International 125

AWJ Services
11-11-2007, 09:30 AM
The rocks do the damage on the rollers here not the tracks so much.
It gets up on the inside of the track and makes a mess when goining through the rollers.

bobcat_ron
11-11-2007, 10:23 AM
The 3" minus we have here is blasted solid rock, crushed down to 3 inch with lots of minus, if I moved that type of gravel, I would just push through it with my 190, as the machine goes through the piles the sides fall into the track and you can hear the rock getting crushed between the roller, idlers and the track lugs, lots of flying rock too, but that is heavy work, so I always opt for moving it bucket by bucket to save wear and fuel.

I am leaning more towards the 247 as I hate Vertical Paths, they seem to have a "dead zone" in the loader's geometry that doesn't allow them to lift a certain amount of weight at that precise spot, also the 247 is lighter and some say feels more nimble than the heavier 257.

Finning's CAT Rental stores don't use them on the rental fleet, to many of the "other" type of operators out there.

ksss
11-11-2007, 12:56 PM
If you think you need one go to Iron Planet. They sell tons of them and they go cheap. Like any auction some are better than others, condition wise.

The following is strictly my opinion: I really doubt you will see a noticeable increase in productivity over your T190 with a 247. I will agree that the suspended undercarriage may give you an advantage in some conditions being able to pickup ground contact where a solid system may not. Is it worth it, that is up to you to decide. I doubt it. The suspended system flat costs more to run for the vast majority of people. The lists of people who have been disappointed by the machine far outweighs those who have good luck with from a reliability standpoint. There is no doubt it is quiet and comfortable to run. It just does not last and costs are out of control on keeping running. Look at the auction results of the CAT MTL compared to purchase price. They have fractions of their value after a thousand hours. The new system may be better but the old system is notorious. If you want one they are cheap, just buy it used and let someone else take the big initial hit. I would also be looking at replacing your T190, That machine is by far the weak sister in the BC tracked machine lineup. No power, loud and with the AHC the feedback is unacceptable. Again these are my thoughts, this and a .50 cents will buy you a cup of coffee.

bobcat_ron
11-11-2007, 01:21 PM
In the past 2 years, the most hours I piled on were about 200 hours, most of those hours were spent running on driveways and any future hours will also be on hard surfaces, I like the Bobcat, don't get me wrong, hell look at my screen name, but the few amount of posts regarding the SJC problems and the fact I can't seem to get a used 180 with SJC here is the big killer.

Ever since running a Bobcat 753, the biggest beef I've had against Bobcat in general is (1) Lack of sufficient oil capacity (2) No return-to-tank line from the auxiliaries, this was a killer on the old 753, every 200 hours, a line would rupture from the stress of the jack hammer I ran, now with the T190, it seems to be the same amount, or just a little dribble of oil.
Cat has an impressive amount of oil capacity and they do run an open system in the hydraulics from what I've learned, but the rest is a grey area for me on the tracks.

One post I read here (page 90'ish) there were a few remarks about getting 1000 hours out of the tracks, impressive to me, I got 963 on the first set with abuse, that's from hitting hard surfaces repeatedly knowing that hitting faster speeds on pavement will reduce the overall impact on my body, whereas going slowly and feeling each lug on the track as it comes over the idlers at a reduced speed really hurts.

***At this time, I should mention that alot of my work involves the dumping hopper, which when fully loaded, the skid steer has to push over 4000 lbs around and it has to bear at least half of that weight on the front, that's the bad vibrations I get, do that for 3 hours and you'll know what I'm talking about.***

The best thing I can do is sit down with the CAT rep and hash this out, if he tells me I can only expect a minimal 800 hours out of the tracks, I'll ask him where to sign.

By the looks of the older style ASV undercarriage versus the newer style, it looks like you can just upgrade to the new stuff with common tools, who knows, I do want to do as much PM as possible, unless it's something tricky like hydraulic repairs or something.

Also, where is the link to ASV's 3 new track options? I seem to have lost it.

construrent
11-11-2007, 01:28 PM
In my neck of the woods, Cat has not been able to sell any more than a handful of units, these units had a number of track roller problems, drive motor problems etc. and the word has gotten around...

I know of a company with a 267B, they have given up because of the very frequent & expensive repairs to the undercarriage. This company has changed over to Bobcat units, from a cost point of view, rigid undercarriages seem most popular,

From a comfort point of view, Cat or ASV. In my opinion, I would stay away from a Cat or ASV especially if working in varying soil or ground conditions,

I am considering buying Takeuchi or Case tracked units, I was offered a very good price on a new ASV but decided to go with rigid type undercarriage..

rgds
construrent

bobcat_ron
11-11-2007, 02:14 PM
Bah, I'm still on the fence over this now.

Blyth
11-11-2007, 04:53 PM
I am very new to the skid steer world. However, I was at a Cat dealer last week and he said the the c series mtl had caterpillars own design on their whole track system. He stated at the same time that the previous models were ASV's design. That is what the guy told me, so I do not know if that is true or not. From reading the previous post in this thread, it sounds like it is still an ASV design on the new C series. Did I mention that I am new to the skidsteer world?

bobcat_ron
11-11-2007, 05:01 PM
Any new stuff that CAT is using won't apply to me, I am still buying used, unless the new stuff can just be bolted right on.

ksss
11-11-2007, 05:28 PM
I don't know how much can be made of the CAT not ASV track system arguement. It is obviously so very close to the same that no one seems to be able to look at it and see the difference, unless I was asleep when that was passed. CAT controls ASV anyway, how much variation can there possibly be? I really cant believe that CAT did not make the tension easier to adjust. Is grease tension that difficult? It is only used on every track system on the planet/except the MTL platform.

Tigerotor77W
11-11-2007, 05:36 PM
It's still an ASV system, but there are Cat adjustments... I posted that on another thread somewhere.

But regardless of changes in design, time will tell what happens with the C-series UC.

Digdeep
11-11-2007, 08:33 PM
CAT does not control ASV. ASV is publicly traded and CAT owns approximately 23% of the shares. The rest are held by normal investors like you and I and institutions like mutual fund companies.

As far as tensioning the tracks goes- I have tensioned the tracks on my RC50 5 times in just over 1,500 hours and it took all of about 10 minutes each time. The Bobcat tracked machines that I sold needed to be tensioned much more often than that or risked throwing a track. Mini-ex's are the same and so are the other rubber-tracked machines. People have made a mountain out of a mole hill with the tensioner system. Everyone can get their hands on an 1 7/8ths wrench just as easy as they can a grease gun. I've sold the non suspended systems (over 100 Bobcat tracked machines from 864s to T300s) and I have buddies that I sold with that now sell other brands (Case, JD, and Mustang). In my opinion, the vocal minority has skewed the perception. The least favorite machines my buddies hate to demo against are the ASV machines and they are becoming disillussioned with all of the spin that their respective brands spew out about the suspended undercarriages because they just aren't seeing what they're told out in the market. I'll be the first to admit that I think that CAT's MTL problems come from machines that are too heavy for the undercarriages and still have most of their weight oriented toward the rear of the machine just like the nonsuspended machines.

bobcat_ron
11-11-2007, 08:49 PM
This weight distribution can be solved when I use my combo bucket, I've seen the vids from Deere's Dig Deeper, and all the side hill stability tests, you can clearly see, a heavier bucket would have solve alot of those problems.

Construct'O
11-11-2007, 09:10 PM
It might be just 23% to you ,but to me thats a fourth of ASV complete company shares owned by someone else.

Tell me this ,wasn't ASV track system first designed for snow on the ski slope packers?If so that means they wasn't designed for dirt ,rocks or mud!


As far as 1500 hours goes your a minority,by far on here.Count all the other users posted troubles and divide them by your 1,what percent do you have then.I'm glad your one of the lucky ones.

As far as tension system it is still a joke!!!!!!!The wrench tightening thing went out over close to 60 years ago.

Cave man evented the wheel,so why is it taking ASV and CAT so long to come up with a better mouse trap.It's not a Cat thing for sure, it is an ASV thing!

I know all about threaded bolts and wrench turning.Unless you take them apart often (another job i don't need)they get rusted, dirt and then don't turn.Just went through this with my tilt linkage on my older dozer blade.

It is a pita period.Thats why Cat did away with it and went to the three hole postion for the tilt link( no threaded turn link) on the newer dozers.Good luck.:usflag:

ksss
11-12-2007, 06:53 PM
I think you at least have to be realistic and agree that CAT drives ASV. Although I could research it and find out for sure, but I am guessing that CAT's share in ASV is the most owned by an outside company with the remainder being made up of individuals and small companies, who do exactly what CAT wants them to. CAT may not own the majority but they certainly steer ASV. Had CAT not used the ASV system and gone with a rigid frame, ASV would likely have either blown away in the dust or continued on the same path as Thomas or much like they were prior to the MTL release, an insignificant contender in a big market. Had CAT gone rigid suspension and also offered a branded ASV they would have had a much more satisfied customers base than they do now IMHO. CAT is the only OEM that could offer both systems under one brand. I guess I should be in marketing.

I don't think the ASV tension system is as easy as you say it is. If it were they would not be offering aftermarket grease tension systems for these machines. I don't own one so of course I cant speak from experience, but if your an OEM and the aftermarket makes a revision to your product. You have a problem. DigDeep I think you might possibly have purchased the best built tracked machine ever made. Certainly the best suspended machine or you are a very careful operator. The fact that you have wheeled machine as well, perhaps you are very chosey over which machine goes to which job. Either way it works for you, but it does not work that nicely for most everyone else with one of those machines.

bobcat_ron
11-12-2007, 07:50 PM
What's so hard about tensioning the ASV anyways?

The only problem is just keeping it from seizing up, that's all, it's all preventative maintenance.

Fieldman12
11-12-2007, 08:12 PM
I myself think tightning the tension with a wrench is not a good setup by today's standards. ASV may go on all kinds of terrain and may have one of the best setups out there but in my opinion is like a few others on here. I feel Cat was one of the best things that ever happened to ASV. I feel ASV is probably one of the worst things that ever happened to Cat. ASV may have the issues fixed on the new Cat undercarriages but allot of people dont forget just like some have never forgot the early 200 series Deere's.

iron peddler
11-12-2007, 09:02 PM
in my territory, for every story of 500 hr track failure there is at least another success story of 1800 to 2200 hrs. each system has there benefits and problems.....cat/asv systems in my area tend to wear from then inside and loose tension before the top tread is shot...and most of my customers are not dirt only guys, we don't get alot of snow anymore but many of the landscapers are not afraid to use their's for snow....operational styles have alot to due with success of asv/cat systems...mtl/ctls are serious investment and with that investment comes with maintenance and the knowledge how to operate in different conditions. many have it figured out, many don't

Digdeep
11-12-2007, 10:59 PM
Well I guess you guys are the experts here since you both have way more posts than I do and own a JD 332 (been out for 2 years so far and had 5% market share in the skid industry last time I got industry percentages from my buddy this summer) and a couple of Case machines (out with their track machine for just over a year with a gigantic 8% not counting NHís skid numbers- especially with the new illustrious 400 series- my buddy tells me that they havenít figured out the head gasket problems on the 420s and 440ís yet). But, not to throw stones or start a flame war. I have noticed over the time that I observed posts on this forum and finally registered to offer my opinions as well, that there a few who dominate the discussions with strongly opinionated posts. Iíve also often wondered how many more would actually register and ask for opinions if tact and facts were offered more freely. I have only ever offered my opinions based off of my experiences successfully selling compact equipment for just over 8 years and running it for going on 5. Iím a big boy and can take the heat, but I find statements made to be gospel based on limited geographic exposure make me chuckle. Nationally, Bobcat is first in track loader market share and CAT is second followed by ASV, Takeuchi, Gehl and Mustang (combined) and so on down the line. Over half of the track loaders in the market are on ASV suspended undercarriages. This information was provided to me by the owner of my old bobcat dealer. He got this information from some sort of industry report at the end of last year. I guess half of the market canít all be having the same problems you guys are seeing in your expansive market areas. Iím pretty confident that Iím not the only one seeing 1,500hrs out of my tracks. I ultimately ended up buying an ASV over a bobcat because the customers that I was trying to sell bobcatís track loaders to were seeing much more life and lower cost on average out of their undercarriages in the long run that I was seeing out of ours. I have found that I donít use my S220 much anymore due to high fuel consumption (sheís thirsty) and the type of work I do.

ASV started this market around the same time as Takeuchi (TL26) and I sold 864s when Bobcat came out with them in the late 90s. I did your research for you. Cat does not control ASV, but they do own 23% of the 61% of the shares that are owned by institutions and the next large chunk (34%) of shares are owned by insiders. ASV just reported their 3rd quarter results and Cat accounted for 18% of ASV revenues, Loegering accounted for 12% and ASV machine sales accounted for 56%. The remaining revenues were parts and other OEM undercarriage sales. I highly doubt that CAT is driving ASV based on the fact that ASV is a publicly traded company and Cat only accounted for about 20% of their business. Of course these are only my opinions.

bobcat_ron
11-12-2007, 11:04 PM
Now I'm starting to hear better things now.

Construct'O
11-12-2007, 11:23 PM
Well I guess you guys are the experts here since you both have way more posts than I do and own a JD 332 (been out for 2 years so far and had 5% market share in the skid industry last time I got industry percentages from my buddy this summer) and a couple of Case machines (out with their track machine for just over a year with a gigantic 8% not counting NHís skid numbers- especially with the new illustrious 400 series- my buddy tells me that they havenít figured out the head gasket problems on the 420s and 440ís yet). But, not to throw stones or start a flame war. I have noticed over the time that I observed posts on this forum and finally registered to offer my opinions as well, that there a few who dominate the discussions with strongly opinionated posts. Iíve also often wondered how many more would actually register and ask for opinions if tact and facts were offered more freely. I have only ever offered my opinions based off of my experiences successfully selling compact equipment for just over 8 years and running it for going on 5. Iím a big boy and can take the heat, but I find statements made to be gospel based on limited geographic exposure make me chuckle. Nationally, Bobcat is first in track loader market share and CAT is second followed by ASV, Takeuchi, Gehl and Mustang (combined) and so on down the line. Over half of the track loaders in the market are on ASV suspended undercarriages. This information was provided to me by the owner of my old bobcat dealer. He got this information from some sort of industry report at the end of last year. I guess half of the market canít all be having the same problems you guys are seeing in your expansive market areas. Iím pretty confident that Iím not the only one seeing 1,500hrs out of my tracks. I ultimately ended up buying an ASV over a bobcat because the customers that I was trying to sell bobcatís track loaders to were seeing much more life and lower cost on average out of their undercarriages in the long run that I was seeing out of ours. I have found that I donít use my S220 much anymore due to high fuel consumption (sheís thirsty) and the type of work I do.

ASV started this market around the same time as Takeuchi (TL26) and I sold 864s when Bobcat came out with them in the late 90s. I did your research for you. Cat does not control ASV, but they do own 23% of the 61% of the shares that are owned by institutions and the next large chunk (34%) of shares are owned by insiders. ASV just reported their 3rd quarter results and Cat accounted for 18% of ASV revenues, Loegering accounted for 12% and ASV machine sales accounted for 56%. The remaining revenues were parts and other OEM undercarriage sales. I highly doubt that CAT is driving ASV based on the fact that ASV is a publicly traded company and Cat only accounted for about 20% of their business. Of course these are only my opinions.

As far as my statements goes, do you really think that tightening the tracks with a wrench in these days and ages is great system.Do you??????

As far as experiences i have a few years myself,with 32 years of being in the construction business and working construction from the time i got out of the high school and the Army.

As afar as 1500 hours on your ASV the hour meter must have quit because you have used the number for as long as i have seen you post on here.

Have a good day:walking:

ksss
11-12-2007, 11:51 PM
Well DigDeep I have yet to hear of a head gasket problem but maybe it has not hit this limited geographical market yet. I will keep an eye out though.

I don't think anyone dominates anything on this forum. I don't generally see opinion past on as fact. If I am offering an opinion then I let you know. If I am passing on something that is not an opinion I give the source of the information. On the ownership issue, it apparently played as I suspected it did. The only question is how much influence CAT has. I suspect it is substantial, not that it really matters.

The marketshare numbers are interesting I would also like to see them. One stat I would like to see the percentage of repeat customers. I don't know if such a stat exists but it would be interesting.

No one mentioned Deere or CASE in any of this. Although I did not know that CASE tracked machines are at 8% not bad for being new in the market. If your purpose is to get me all excited, sorry I already let it go. However as a sign of respect, I will in the future be more understanding of your position and your passion for those things ASV. Nothing was meant as personal, which is obviously how it was taken. I hope your good luck continues with your ASV. :waving:

AWJ Services
11-13-2007, 08:35 AM
Nationally, Bobcat is first in track loader market share and CAT is second followed by ASV, Takeuchi, Gehl and Mustang (combined) and so on down the line.

It always has too do with exposure.
As far ASV being that high you could not ell in the Southeastern USA.
They are non existent.
Cat I would would presume would have the largest dealer network of them all so there exposure and dealer network should land them the #1 spot yet for some reason they are behind Bobcat.
I cannot remember the last time I saw an ASV skid steer at a job sight.
We do have about 10 dealers for them so that is not the problem.

I would like too see an article on CTL market that is based on current market years.



We have one of the larger Cat dealers here in Georgia and straight from the Horses mouth they hate too sell the MTL too there good customers.
They have way too much damage control when they do.
They prefer the VTS stem.



Iím pretty confident that Iím not the only one seeing 1,500hrs out of my tracks.

I Know a guy who has that many hours on his Takeuchi tracks.

I am with KSSS about the 1500 hours.
At what point did you reach 1500 hrs and were are you at hour wise now?



I ultimately ended up buying an ASV over a bobcat because the customers that I was trying to sell bobcatís track loaders to were seeing much more life and lower cost on average out of their undercarriages in the long run that I was seeing out of ours.

So Rubber rollers last longer than Metal rollers.


It is quite funny that no ASV/CAT CTL dealer will give you maint cost on their track machines.
The very first thing my Takeuchi salesman did was give me documented hourly expected replacement costs of my track system.
He also gave me references of owners with 2000 plus hours on there machines.
Short of literally cutting the tracks into this is what you will get out of it.
Now I can make an educated decision.
I shopped ASV and trust me I got a bunch of I don't knows and other misdirections.
The lead mechanic laughed when I asked him about there track system.
I walked into there shop too see 90% of it occupied with ASV machines with busted undercarriages.
Most within the first 750 hours.
This was not 10 years ago either this was after they came out with there RC line.
YOU can call it "Limited too certain Demographic areas" if you like but that is how it is here in Georgia.

Most people on here are Brand loyal and that probally does cloud some of there opinions but by simply listening too the public we do see a trend.

Maybe all the bias you speak of is just too our wallets.
Maybe we like too keep our money there.
Who Knows.

bobcat_ron
11-13-2007, 10:43 AM
.....I walked into there shop too see 90% of it occupied with ASV machines with busted undercarriages.
Most within the first 750 hours..


That's all I expect out of my tracks, the way I broke it down compared to our D-4, at over 2000 hours the bushings and pins were turned and new sprocket segments were replaced, after that, there is a life expectancy of 2000 more hours before all the track parts need to be replaced, that D-4 weighs 10 tons, half of that is what my T190 weighs, and at half of the 2000 hours is 1000, roughly where I needed to replace my tracks.
These CTL's go through the same abuse and torture as machines double their weight in half the hours, why? Speed + carrying weight = faster wear.

I've yet to see any steel tracked loader/dozer reach speeds with a loaded bucket over 5 mp/h and take aggressive turns, come to a dead stop and back up at the same speed, they just don't do it.

AWJ Services
11-13-2007, 11:57 AM
That's all I expect out of my tracks,


I walked into there shop too see 90% of it occupied with ASV machines with busted undercarriages.

I said nothing of Tracks.I said UNDERCARRIAGE

bobcat_ron
11-13-2007, 11:58 AM
All the same to me.

AWJ Services
11-13-2007, 12:16 PM
All the same to me.

So you are comfortable with a 10k + repair bill on a machine with less than 700 hours?

bobcat_ron
11-13-2007, 12:18 PM
Well how do you bust an undercarriage and get a bill of that amount???

AWJ Services
11-13-2007, 12:52 PM
Why do you think there is 20 or 30 different posts on this here on these forums?
Why do you think everyone is so against them?
Call Cat or ASV and price it out for yourself.
The Tracks alone are 4500 dollars.

Wait too you rip off all the drive lugs as well.

Maybe you need too use the search buton for a couple hours and then get back with us.:)

bobcat_ron
11-13-2007, 01:01 PM
I did the search, but I wasn't getting the answers I wanted, I did ask a sales rep 3 years ago how much the tracks were and he said $5000 for a pair, that wasn't too bad considering I payed $3800 and a bit more for mine.

Tigerotor77W
11-13-2007, 01:12 PM
Maybe all the bias you speak of is just too our wallets.
Maybe we like too keep our money there.
Who Knows.

I think this is a type of post that Cat needs to realize exist: there is a huge block against switching to Cat MTLs because the public thinks they're expensive to own and operate.

That being said, I for one do respect DigDeep's opinion and his posts. He's clearly taken very good care of his machine, but beyond that, smart operating technique will (and has) save[d] him money. The MTL and ASV are not meant to be operated in the same manner as would a SSL, just as you wouldn't operate a track loader in the same way as you would a wheel loader. This clearly doesn't suit everyone's cup of tea, but there's nothing wrong with saying that "My situation is this, and so I think that my machine can stand up to the same abuse that yours can."

Mileage varies. For some reason, a lot of us (myself included) get he(*-bent on thinking that our machine is the best one out there -- and it is, for our purpose. It's only fair to say, then, that someone else is bound to have another preference. Continually arguing over tidly matters isn't going to bring much productivity here, so can't we all group hug for once?

:hammerhead:

AWJ Services
11-13-2007, 03:25 PM
For some reason, a lot of us (myself included) get he(*-bent on thinking that our machine is the best one out there -- and it is, for our purpose. It's only fair to say, then, that someone else is bound to have another preference. Continually arguing over tidly matters isn't going to bring much productivity here, so can't we all group hug for once?

Excellent post.


I would buy a Cat C series tomorrow if I could have the Takeuchi undercarriage on it from the Factory.

Tigerotor77W
11-13-2007, 04:24 PM
I should note that I was agreeing with DigDeep... and that the attacks on his accounts aren't really necessary.

(Not directed at you, AWJ -- just a thought I had as I re-read my original post.)

I'm really hoping that we don't lose his voice here.

bobcat_ron
11-13-2007, 06:15 PM
Tigerotor said it exactly the way I would have said it, but with bigger words.

Digdeep
11-13-2007, 07:22 PM
Fair enough posts guys.*trucewhiteflag* I never meant to start a flame war and I realize that we are all passionate about our fields, and machines. sometimes to the point of escalating it too far. I take no offense to what you guys have said. I just want to add that I have worked my machine pretty hard and I've worked just as hard to maintain it by sound operating and solid preventive maintenance paractices. I have 1672.8 hours on my hour meter now. I will agree to disagree that the tensioner for the tracks is dumb, but that's just me.

I did call my dealership today to check if the details were available on a undercarriage program that ASV announced at their dealer meeting in October. This is what I got:
1. The rear idlers on the RC50/60 are now steel and both the front and rear now sport metal face seals.
2. ASV has a program where a customer can replace his entire undercarriage minus the drive motor for these following list prices and the cost per hour if the entire undercarriage was replaced at 1,500 hours (I like that number) follows the cost. The labor to install the undercarriage is included in the cost per hour, but the freight cost is not. The package includes everything but the drive motor-you just put the drive motor back on and slide the undercarriage onto the axles.
RC30 $4334 $3.36 per hour at 1,500hrs
RC50/60 $7,515 $5.41 per hour
SR70 $10,500 $7.46 per hour
SR80 $12,800 $8.98 per hour
RC100 $13,300 $9.39 per hour

I don't think you'd need to replace the entire undercarriage, but basically it looks like a swap out. By comparison he said the Mustang MTL25 would cost approx. $15,400 to replace all of the rollers, sprockets and tracks but not the frame or grease tensioner like the ASV package. My salesman's dealership is also a Mustang dealer so he couldn't provide me costs on other machines. he said it looks like a pretty good program that helps to control costs.

AWJ Services
11-13-2007, 07:24 PM
I respect DIGDEEPS opinion as well.

I just do not want some one too Patronize.

I do not own an ASV or a Cat.

When I purcahsed my skid steer I researched all the units out there.
I spoke with the mechanics at several dealers.
That is wht I base my opinion off of .

bobcat_ron
11-13-2007, 07:24 PM
That's good to read that the rear idlers are steel, those are the ones that take the most abuse from getting rocks into the tracks.

AWJ Services
11-13-2007, 07:35 PM
MTL25 would cost approx. $15,400 to replace all of the rollers, sprockets and tracks

Tracks 4000
Sprockets 400 side
Small rollers 150 a piece.4 or 5 per side
Front roller 200 a side.
Thats it
Nothing else.
Thats 6400 in parts.Thats a heck of alot of labor.
I pridced the parts out before I purchased the machine.
I know how much they cost.


At my dealer there has never been a documented case of the front roller or sprockets needing too be replaced before 1500 hours except for manufacturers defects.
90% of the time the small rollers will swap from front too back before they need replacing.
The norm is no rollers or sprockets before 2000+ hours.
Just tracks.

There is no one here in Georgia getting 1500 hours out of a Cat/ASV track.
They last no longer than a conventional tracked machine here.

bobcat_ron
11-13-2007, 08:25 PM
That's also more of what I wanted to read.

Is it possible to rotate rollers from the rear to the front?

qps
11-13-2007, 08:32 PM
My CAT 297C is going back to the dealer for......idler replacements...yes folks the rubber is failing on some units and cat is replacing with steel or rubber...customer choice, but rumor has it that steel idlers may decrease track life by 20%..tigerrotor..feel free to jump in here....:)

bobcat_ron
11-13-2007, 08:42 PM
Uh-oh. Big uh-oh.

AWJ Services
11-13-2007, 08:44 PM
How many hours?

What conditions?

Tigerotor77W
11-13-2007, 11:06 PM
tigerrotor..feel free to jump in here....:)

Dunno anything about it. Will check and see if I can find anything.

Digdeep
11-13-2007, 11:24 PM
Tracks 4000
Sprockets 400 side
Small rollers 150 a piece.4 or 5 per side
Front roller 200 a side.
Thats it
Nothing else.
Thats 6400 in parts.Thats a heck of alot of labor.
I pridced the parts out before I purchased the machine.
I know how much they cost.


AWJ..those are good prices. Much cheaper than Bobcat's idler prices or my dealers. Are they aftermarket prices? If not, I'm going to find out why my dealer charges so much more than you are getting them for. You'd think that with only two major manufacturers of idlers- passini and Berco the prices would be more even across the board. I guess it could also be possible that your dealer is willing to take less of a margin. What brand loader are those rollers for? That's also good life out of the front and rear idlers. I rarely saw roller life that long out of the Bobcat machines I sold. I'm glad your operating costs are that low..about $5.20 an hour.

AWJ Services
11-14-2007, 12:12 AM
AWJ..those are good prices. Much cheaper than Bobcat's idler prices or my dealers. Are they aftermarket prices? If not, I'm going to find out why my dealer charges so much more than you are getting them for. You'd think that with only two major manufacturers of idlers- passini and Berco the prices would be more even across the board. I guess it could also be possible that your dealer is willing to take less of a margin. What brand loader are those rollers for? That's also good life out of the front and rear idlers. I rarely saw roller life that long out of the Bobcat machines I sold. I'm glad your operating costs are that low..about $5.20 an hour.

It is Takeuchi.

These prices are older so I will call tomorrow and get current prices.
The tracks can be purchased for around 3000 dollars if you go aftermarket.
The track price is oem and current.

Digdeep
11-14-2007, 09:08 AM
AWJ..no sarcasm included in this comment, but I called to get an exact breakdown of parts this morning on the Mulstang MTL25 (Takeuchi TL150) and the parts manager at the store said that you are getting a smoking deal if you are getting prices that low. He said that aftermarket chinese roller prices can't touch those prices. He said he also thinks the Mustang prices may be a little higher than the Takeuchi, but not too much. Here are the suggested retail prices he gave me:
Front Idlers- $721.91 each x 2
Track rollers- $602.26 each x 10
Rear idlerss- $822.51 each x 2
Tracks- $2660 each x 2, but he would sell them for as low as $2,200 each.
He quoted about 13-15 hours to change the tracks, sprockets, and all of the rollers (I think it's a little high)
So the total price including 13 hours of labor (no tax) would be-$15,276.92
I'm interested to see how much lower Takeuchi is selling the same components. My guess is maybe 10%.

Construct'O
11-14-2007, 09:28 AM
AWJ..no sarcasm included in this comment, but I called to get an exact breakdown of parts this morning on the Mulstang MTL25 (Takeuchi TL150) and the parts manager at the store said that you are getting a smoking deal if you are getting prices that low. He said that aftermarket chinese roller prices can't touch those prices. He said he also thinks the Mustang prices may be a little higher than the Takeuchi, but not too much. Here are the suggested retail prices he gave me:
Front Idlers- $721.91 each x 2
Track rollers- $602.26 each x 10
Rear idlerss- $822.51 each x 2
Tracks- $2660 each x 2, but he would sell them for as low as $2,200 each.
He quoted about 13-15 hours to change the tracks, sprockets, and all of the rollers (I think it's a little high)
So the total price including 13 hours of labor (no tax) would be-$15,276.92
I'm interested to see how much lower Takeuchi is selling the same components. My guess is maybe 10%.


Better call back you missed the price of the sprocket! You have labor to change them ,but i don't see sprockets on the parts list?:usflag:

AWJ Services
11-14-2007, 09:52 AM
For lack of stepping on toes my salesman gave me some prices.
I was off on my prices

Tracks 4000
Small rollers 330
Big idlers 600/700
sprockets 250.

This will vary a little between models.

So 15k may not be a stretch at a Mustang dealer.
The advantage too metal rollers is you can get then refurbished for a drastic savings.


He reitirerated that no rollers/sprockets will need repacing before the second set of tracks is wore out.
He also says they have never done a carriage overhaul of this magnitude.
So yes that may be a real number with comparrison value but in reality it will never happen.
ASV put that track overhaul price cap in place for a reason.
Those machines I spoke of had 10k+ repair bills at 400 too 700 hours.
Some much more.
Could you imagine having too pay that bill on a fairly new machine.
This is were the 20 + dollar an hour ASV/Cat operating costs came from.


We have very harsh conditions here and my salesman is the #1 salesman in the USA for Takeuchi.
You see more Takeuchi tracked machines than Bobcats here.
When I purchased the machine I asked the salesman about an extended warranty and refused too sell me one.
Could you imagine selling a T300 without one?

I am intelligent enough too know that Takeuchi is not a perfect machine.
It is noisy and rattly ,etc,etc but the thing flat out digs and they just do not tear up.
They make you money and they are cheap too buy.
Run through rocks,brick piles,pavement,mud,rebar,busted up concrete I do not care.I use it on any and all surfaces.
Use a Cat/ASV this way and you better have some spare parts.
Is there anyone here who disagrees that rocks and sharp objects will damage the undercarriage on the Cat/ASV machines?

qps
11-14-2007, 01:00 PM
For lack of stepping on toes my salesman gave me some prices.
I was off on my prices

Tracks 4000
Small rollers 330
Big idlers 600/700
sprockets 250.

This will vary a little between models.

So 15k may not be a stretch at a Mustang dealer.
The advantage too metal rollers is you can get then refurbished for a drastic savings.


He reitirerated that no rollers/sprockets will need repacing before the second set of tracks is wore out.
He also says they have never done a carriage overhaul of this magnitude.
So yes that may be a real number with comparrison value but in reality it will never happen.
ASV put that track overhaul price cap in place for a reason.
Those machines I spoke of had 10k+ repair bills at 400 too 700 hours.
Some much more.
Could you imagine having too pay that bill on a fairly new machine.
This is were the 20 + dollar an hour ASV/Cat operating costs came from.


We have very harsh conditions here and my salesman is the #1 salesman in the USA for Takeuchi.
You see more Takeuchi tracked machines than Bobcats here.
When I purchased the machine I asked the salesman about an extended warranty and refused too sell me one.
Could you imagine selling a T300 without one?

I am intelligent enough too know that Takeuchi is not a perfect machine.
It is noisy and rattly ,etc,etc but the thing flat out digs and they just do not tear up.
They make you money and they are cheap too buy.
Run through rocks,brick piles,pavement,mud,rebar,busted up concrete I do not care.I use it on any and all surfaces.
Use a Cat/ASV this way and you better have some spare parts.
Is there anyone here who disagrees that rocks and sharp objects will damage the undercarriage on the Cat/ASV machines?

Nope...........

Tigerotor77W
11-14-2007, 02:25 PM
My CAT 297C is going back to the dealer for......idler replacements...yes folks the rubber is failing on some units and cat is replacing with steel or rubber...customer choice, but rumor has it that steel idlers may decrease track life by 20%..tigerrotor..feel free to jump in here....:)

Service letter is out on the C-series machines. Dealers are aware. The B2 machines have a standard steel rear idler.

bobcat_ron
11-14-2007, 03:48 PM
Talked with a Sales rep from Cat today, he took some pics of my 190, gave me a written price quote............................I'm definitely going with a new CAT 247, less than $49,000 CAN, after expected trade in, monthly payments will be $300 cheaper than I'm paying now.
As far as the tracks, 1500 hrs on the older models, same conditions I will be running through and they haven't seen any abnormal wear outdie of "normal" usage.
I was completely honest with him on how much info I knew about ASV and all the bad info that there was and he was honest with me too, so I am 80% sure now, all depending on if I can sell or trade the 190 in and still pay off what I owe on it.

Scag48
11-14-2007, 05:28 PM
Ron, curious why a 247 would be your choice, it's such a small machine and it seems like you're on big jobs where a larger machine would play in your favor.

Construct'O
11-14-2007, 08:05 PM
For lack of stepping on toes my salesman gave me some prices.
I was off on my prices

Tracks 4000
Small rollers 330
Big idlers 600/700
sprockets 250.

This will vary a little between models.

So 15k may not be a stretch at a Mustang dealer.
The advantage too metal rollers is you can get then refurbished for a drastic savings.


He reitirerated that no rollers/sprockets will need repacing before the second set of tracks is wore out.
He also says they have never done a carriage overhaul of this magnitude.
So yes that may be a real number with comparrison value but in reality it will never happen.
ASV put that track overhaul price cap in place for a reason.
Those machines I spoke of had 10k+ repair bills at 400 too 700 hours.
Some much more.
Could you imagine having too pay that bill on a fairly new machine.
This is were the 20 + dollar an hour ASV/Cat operating costs came from.


We have very harsh conditions here and my salesman is the #1 salesman in the USA for Takeuchi.
You see more Takeuchi tracked machines than Bobcats here.
When I purchased the machine I asked the salesman about an extended warranty and refused too sell me one.
Could you imagine selling a T300 without one?

I am intelligent enough too know that Takeuchi is not a perfect machine.
It is noisy and rattly ,etc,etc but the thing flat out digs and they just do not tear up.
They make you money and they are cheap too buy.
Run through rocks,brick piles,pavement,mud,rebar,busted up concrete I do not care.I use it on any and all surfaces.
Use a Cat/ASV this way and you better have some spare parts.
Is there anyone here who disagrees that rocks and sharp objects will damage the undercarriage on the Cat/ASV machines?

Are the front and rear idlers different sizes ? Just wondering because they are different prices between the front and the rear.

As far as mine goes they look the same front and rear.

AWJ Services
11-14-2007, 08:32 PM
I will look in the morning.
I think they are different sizes on my TL140.

bobcat_ron
11-14-2007, 08:36 PM
Ron, curious why a 247 would be your choice, it's such a small machine and it seems like you're on big jobs where a larger machine would play in your favor.


Funny, I got the same question from my rep too, even though the 247 has less ROC than the T190, I needed a radius path loader, with all the heavy lifting I've done and not to mention twisting the loader while prying up concrete, I found the VP has a dead zone in it, with Bobcat, it was with the bucket 3-4 feet off the ground, also I need more reach that the VP can't give me and the 247 has more bucket break out than the 257, go figure.

The other fact that I learned that blew me away is that CAT can drop a high flow into this 247 even though it's not on the info sheets, I guess they cross some hoses over and throw in a valve or two and Bob's your cross dressing uncle, I dunno.

The only thing that stands in my way right now is how I am going to trade off the 190 when I still owe over $8000 on it, last I recall, CAT took over the payments on a trade in when my dad bought a 320CLU from them, but that was through John Deere credit, so I guess I may end up selling privately, but time will tell.

RockSet N' Grade
11-14-2007, 09:12 PM
So, Tiger-ate-'er.......can you share what was in the "service letter"?

Tigerotor77W
11-14-2007, 09:34 PM
I found the VP has a dead zone in it, with Bobcat, it was with the bucket 3-4 feet off the ground, also I need more reach that the VP can't give me

1) You found it! Actually, every machine has a "dead zone," but there's two ways to conceal it... either put it in an unobstructive spot (like at the top of the lift cycle or something) or put in big-enough hydraulics that even with the geometry making the actual lift force less, you can still lift a lot of weight. (It's like saying you can't hold a 50 pound bag of flour at arm's length, but if you work out enough, you can.)

2) Where do you need this extra reach?

3) Would you be running over a lot of sharp rocks (from prying up concrete)?

So, Tiger-ate-'er.......can you share what was in the "service letter"?

I actually have no idea -- I didn't see the service letter. I was told the blurb and that's it.

bobcat_ron
11-14-2007, 10:12 PM
I need the extra reach when backfilling behind walls as well as with the dumping hopper when it's being raised when dumping.

As for the rocks, no, when I take out concrete I leave absolutely nothing but the fill that was underneath behind, even the odd nugget falls out and I will scoop it back up as I make my next loading pass.

RockSet N' Grade
11-15-2007, 12:45 AM
I just got a flyer in the mail today from Wheeler Equipment ( CAT guys ). They had a spread on one of the pages that emphasized that they now are a Loegering Rep and carry Loegering VTS tracks for Kitty-Cat skids. Most interesting..........

Digdeep
11-15-2007, 08:15 AM
Mustang MTL Sprocket- $297.00
It does look like there is a price difference between the Takeuchi and Mustang machines even though they are the same parts. I guess since I haven't sold or operated in Georgia I'll have to go with what you say are $10k repair bills in 400-700 hours, but I have an awfully hard time seeing how anybody's machine could have that much damage in such a short amount of time. I guess I'd have to question why the dealer even sells the ASVs if they don't last down in your neck of the woods. How long have they sold them for? If I was a dealer and we had that many problems with a brand of machine I wouldn't sell it..period.

The only wear I have seen out of my undercarriage in stone is on the front and rear idlers (I have replaced all four rear idlers. The front ones are chewed up some, but don't need to be replaced). To be perfectly honest, the middle rollers don't see much wear at all, grooving or chunking. I think ASV changed their rear idlers to steel for this very same reason. I can't put an exact price tag on the value of my suspension, but I do have to say that if I strictly made my living in one machine the difference between the wear and tear on my body in say a Bobcat T250 (I have many demo hours in them) vs the RC50 is enough that I think I would be in much better shape when it was time to hang up my work boots after 5-10 years running one.

bobcat_ron
11-15-2007, 08:23 AM
ASV actually makes the tracks for the Loegering VTS. What I hate about it the VTS (other than the extra width across the tracks) is the rather sharp angles the tracks ride over the rear idlers, that's where most of the internal heat is going to build up and cause the delamination, also the "suspension" is bullsh*t, it's just a torsion bar effect.

Even my CAT rep said that was a joke.

AWJ Services
11-15-2007, 09:25 AM
Any time somone rebadges a product there parts will be more than the original manufacturers parts.
Same in the auto industry.


I guess I'd have to question why the dealer even sells the ASVs if they don't last down in your neck of the woods. How long have they sold them for? If I was a dealer and we had that many problems with a brand of machine I wouldn't sell it..period.

They are a New Holland dealership and at the time they needed a track machine to sale.
I have never worked anywhere but here in Georgia.
I do know from looking at this very forum that many people buy there skids with smooth buckets.
They do not have dirt in the condition it is here which in turn results in a completely different environment than we have here.
Guys were running the ASV machines the same way they ran there wheeled skid steers.
That is it plane and simple.They cannot hold up in these type of conditions with someone operating them that way.
It was an expensive education process.
What the consumer has learned is that a non suspended track can be literally treated the same as wheeled skid steer in our conditions with much less operating expense than the suspended machines.
It got bad enough that they were giving customers a list of operating conditions that would void the warranty on the undercarriage.
Side sloping was a big issue.

The other day I saw an ASV RC100 with the top half of the track peeled off halfway around.
Less than 200 hours and he was pissed.
He said he was grading and the track caught something in the ground and just peeled it off.



If I was a dealer and we had that many problems with a brand of machine I wouldn't sell it..period.

It took a while for this too all snowball.
The same happened at Cat as well.
It was rather overwhelming.
They(Cat Dealer) had customers buying millions of dollars of big iron from them and they sale them a MTL and the undercarriage falls apart in the first year and they were being asked too pay for repairs.
John Deere and Case were loving it.
There were a few companies that changed brands because of it.

I wanted an ASV when I first started demoing and I loved there machines.
They are very comfortable and have great power.During my research I discovered most of this info.So I knew the ASV would limit what I could do on Jobs.I knew that if I take care of it and operate in the right conditions it would not cause problems.
I however was faced with having too buy one machine too do any and everything.
Which led me too were I am now.

bobcat_ron
11-15-2007, 09:34 AM
With the ASV undercarriages like it always has been said, it all boils down to the operator's mentality and how you maintain the tracks.

AWJ Services
11-15-2007, 09:48 AM
With the ASV undercarriages like it always has been said, it all boils down to the operator's mentality and how you maintain the tracks.

That is not entirely true.
The track system has inherent limitations that no matter what the operators mentality or his maint habits are he cannot overcome them.

VAMech
11-15-2007, 11:26 PM
Well DigDeep I have yet to hear of a head gasket problem but maybe it has not hit this limited geographical market yet. I will keep an eye out though.

This looks like it was an interesting conversation. I'm not sticking up for digdeep but he is right and we have had headgasket failures on the Shibaura engines used in the Case 420s mostly not too long after start up. They're still working on it.

VAMech
11-16-2007, 10:38 PM
That is not entirely true.
The track system has inherent limitations that no matter what the operators mentality or his maint habits are he cannot overcome them.

I suppose I would agree with you to a point but operators are are big influence on the cost of running a machine even in the large iron. I've seen dudes tear up large dozers in just over a 1,000 hours by operating like idiots. If you operate them how they were intended they will give you good life and make you money. If you don't, my guys will be happy to fix them for you.

I'm not trying to be critical on you but I've seen hundreds of Takeuchi machines in our shop and I would take the life your dealer told you to expect out of your tracks and rollers with a grain of salt. As far as I'm concerned all of the small track machines cost quite a bit to operate but people buy them because they do something the large dozers and loaders can't do and skid steers have their limitations too. I would estimate that most of the Takeuchi tracks I replace are in the 900-1000 hour range. Less down east on the coast because of the sand an moisture. Plan on replacing most if not all of your rollers by 2,000-2,250 hours and probably the tensioning cylinders because mud gets packed up in there and pits the rods. We also sell our middle rollers for more than your dealer quoted you. Other than that the Takeuchi seems to be a pretty good machine when it comes to the engines and frames. for some reason we replace quite a few of the loader valves around 2,500 hours and it cost quite a bit for the valve. I have asked the factory about this but they don't seem to have an answer for it.

SiteSolutions
11-17-2007, 12:00 AM
My first T-190 was rowing sticks and open cab. When I traded it in, the tracks looked as good as the day I bought it.

My current T-190 has joysticks and closed cab. I get no feedback through the controls as to what the tracks are encountering. These tracks are already looking rough with only 350+ hours on them. Granted I have run it in some hostile conditions, but I ran the last machine in the same places, so I am guessing feedback or lack thereof is playing a major role in the difference I am seeing. Hopefully I will get better at feeling what is going on as I get more accustomed to the joysticks. I would guess 1000 hours would be all I can get from these tracks if the trend continues unchanged.

AWJ Services
11-17-2007, 01:03 AM
I'm not trying to be critical on you but I've seen hundreds of Takeuchi machines in our shop and I would take the life your dealer told you to expect out of your tracks and rollers with a grain of salt. As far as I'm concerned all of the small track machines cost quite a bit to operate but people buy them because they do something the large dozers and loaders can't do and skid steers have their limitations too. I would estimate that most of the Takeuchi tracks I replace are in the 900-1000 hour range. Less down east on the coast because of the sand an moisture. Plan on replacing most if not all of your rollers by 2,000-2,250 hours and probably the tensioning cylinders because mud gets packed up in there and pits the rods. We also sell our middle rollers for more than your dealer quoted you. Other than that the Takeuchi seems to be a pretty good machine when it comes to the engines and frames. for some reason we replace quite a few of the loader valves around 2,500 hours and it cost quite a bit for the valve. I have asked the factory about this but they don't seem to have an answer for it.


That is pretty much what my Salesman said as well.
Sometimes I do not convey what I am thinking when typing.LOL




I suppose I would agree with you to a point but operators are are big influence on the cost of running a machine even in the large iron. I've seen dudes tear up large dozers in just over a 1,000 hours by operating like idiots. If you operate them how they were intended they will give you good life and make you money. If you don't, my guys will be happy to fix them for you.


I agree.
Your comment does go along with what I am saying in that the ASV track system was not designed too hold up in harsh conditions.
They were not intended too take certain abuse.

I would like too hear more about the loader valve problems and other issues that the Takeuchi has .

ksss
11-17-2007, 07:49 PM
I have only seen one 420 out here and it was a tracked machine. There are many 440s in this area and I have never heard of a headgasket problem. Maybe the 420 has a gasket issue I honestly don't know but the engine in the 440 is not the same as the 420 so it would be incredible ironic to have a gasket problem on different engine platforms.

VAMech
11-17-2007, 08:36 PM
I didn't say that the Iveco/Cummins engines had a problem only the Shiburas.

ksss
11-17-2007, 08:39 PM
Your right you did not, but Dig Deep did.

VAMech
11-17-2007, 08:47 PM
That is pretty much what my Salesman said as well. Sometimes I do not convey what I am thinking when typing.LOL

I agree. Your comment does go along with what I am saying in that the ASV track system was not designed too hold up in harsh conditions.
They were not intended too take certain abuse. I would like too hear more about the loader valve problems and other issues that the Takeuchi has .

I can't speak much for the ASV machine undercarriage but I do see more of them up here than you see in GA. I personally don't think any of the small tracked machines hold up too well in harsh conditions. I think that the Takeuchi tracks last longer than the Case tracks because the rollers run on steel but I've seen customers ruin them in less than 300 hours running on hard surfaces. We just replaced a customers Case tracks at just under 400 hours because he thought he could run his machine in crushed stone. It exposed all of the steel bars and ripped one out of one side and we just replaced the other to keep it from happening right after he left. It comes down to how the operator operates and takes care of his machine- all sizes. I have rebuilt steel undercarriages in just over 1000 hours because the owner put an idiot in the cab. Its all good to me since I just fix them. I just wish salesmen would spend some time with the customer talking about operation and maintenance before the guy goes off like a bat out of hell and ruins something. That way I wouldn't spend so much time explaining why something isn't warranty to a pissed off customer who just saw the bill from the work order.

VAMech
11-17-2007, 08:51 PM
Your right you did not, but Dig Deep did.

I guess you were right and so was he. You two should just call it a draw and move on.

dozerman21
11-18-2007, 10:04 AM
I didn't say that the Iveco/Cummins engines had a problem only the Shiburas.

VAMech- Is the engine in the 650K dozers (445T/M2) also an Iveco/Cummins?

Also, do you know how the new 650K Series 3 dozers are different than the Series 2? They also weigh more too... just wondering why and what the differences were from the Series 2 models.

AWJ Services
11-18-2007, 10:34 AM
I just wish salesmen would spend some time with the customer talking about operation and maintenance before the guy goes off like a bat out of hell and ruins something.
That way I wouldn't spend so much time explaining why something isn't warranty to a pissed off customer who just saw the bill from the work order.

This had more to do with the Cat/ASV failures and resulting reputation than anything else.


Here in Ga we are pretty much on extremly hard clay for about half the year.
I also spend some time dealing with chrushed stone and on the pavement.
I am expecting 750 too 1000 hours out of my tracks and rollers are showing very little wear.
Being this is my first track machine I will admit I have made a alot of mistakes that I am sure will cost me in the long run.

But the way work is going right now the tracks may dry rot before they wear out.:)

bobcat_ron
11-18-2007, 10:56 AM
I was doing some number crunching based on the price sheet and trade in value, the money I'm saving on monthly payments (close to $310) over 24 months the tracks and major moving parts will have paid for themselves.

VAMech
11-21-2007, 07:01 PM
VAMech- Is the engine in the 650K dozers (445T/M2) also an Iveco/Cummins?

Also, do you know how the new 650K Series 3 dozers are different than the Series 2? They also weigh more too... just wondering why and what the differences were from the Series 2 models.

Dozerman21- diehards would call it a Case engine but the 650K engine is Iveco/Cummins. I couldn't begin to tell you all of the sales points between the series 2&3s but I know that they improved some of the wiring harnesses over the series 2s and the cabs are now made in the US instead of overseas. You can also now use other hydro fluids in the series 3s instead of just the "Case" brand. I don't think there is a weight difference between the base machines but probably only a correction to the actual weight. A salesman could probably help you more on that one. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you but I don't get on the computer every night because I teach youth shooting a couple nights a week.

SiteSolutions
11-21-2007, 11:42 PM
You teach folks how to shoot young people? Where do I sign up?

Tigerotor77W
11-22-2007, 12:14 PM
You teach folks how to shoot young people? Where do I sign up?

I better run while I still can... :/

:)

bobcat_ron
11-22-2007, 07:43 PM
**** BIG UPDATE****

Just got the 247 today, I took a huge pile of pics comparing the T190 to the 247 MTL.

The differences are massive, not only in hydraulic power and delivery but in overall functions.

Look for a new thread I will create in a few days.

cat2
11-22-2007, 08:02 PM
**** BIG UPDATE****

Just got the 247 today, I took a huge pile of pics comparing the T190 to the 247 MTL.

The differences are massive, not only in hydraulic power and delivery but in overall functions.

Look for a new thread I will create in a few days.



A few days?:hammerhead: Get your a$$ in gear and get those pics up NOW:realmad::gunsfirin:(