PDA

View Full Version : New C Series Cat MTL


Boddie
11-13-2007, 02:45 PM
Has anybody bought the new c series mtl? ifso, how's it compared to the 257b series?

bobcat_ron
11-13-2007, 03:52 PM
The C series isn't availible in the smaller sizes yet, give them time.

Scag48
11-13-2007, 04:55 PM
257BII is out right now, the 257 hasn't been upgraded to the C series yet.

bobcat_ron
11-13-2007, 07:19 PM
If it weren't for a the alphabetical lettering of the yearly series, we'd all be lost.

qps
11-13-2007, 09:33 PM
Has anybody bought the new c series mtl? ifso, how's it compared to the 257b series?

Yep...got a 297C...traded in a 257B...POS....I guess the new series II are supposed to be better....:dizzy:

Boddie
11-14-2007, 11:14 AM
why did you get the 297 opposed to the other options? What's your primary use? The reason why i asked is because I'm in the market, but I don't want to spend money twice. I mostly do landscaping, grading, lot clearing ect.... The cat rep told me all I need is the 257 but I don't want to out grow it. What do you think?

qps
11-14-2007, 01:58 PM
why did you get the 297 opposed to the other options? What's your primary use? The reason why i asked is because I'm in the market, but I don't want to spend money twice. I mostly do landscaping, grading, lot clearing ect.... The cat rep told me all I need is the 257 but I don't want to out grow it. What do you think?


for just landscaping the 257B did everything I wanted it to. I would get the series II..not the older 257B...I wanted out of my 257 and wanted more power....so I got it..but this thing is huge...:weightlifter:

Boddie
11-14-2007, 03:07 PM
do you think that the 287c is too big for landscaping?

qps
11-14-2007, 05:31 PM
do you think that the 287c is too big for landscaping?

its also a large frame machine.....so its the same size as mine...a 257 is the largest small frame available...I think...the 257 did everything I ask of it...most of the time....I just had issues with it....so its history....

Dirt Digger2
11-14-2007, 05:37 PM
do you think that the 287c is too big for landscaping?

personally yes...but it depends what you use it for. If you do a lot of loader work then no. But you also have to remember that it weighs almost 10,000lbs. What are you going to haul it with? The width is only 6.5feet so a standard equipment trailer will haul it, you will need at least a 12k trailer if not a 14k. But once you get to the 12k trailer range you need a CDL since you will be hauling it commercial...we do excavating and though a lot of the work we do is with a backhoe our TL130 is almost perfect...a TL140 would be slightly better, but we certainly wouldn't have any more use for a large machine like that then we do for a small machine

KRtraxx
11-18-2007, 05:08 PM
The 257B is a nice unit.However it is a bit heavy for that undercarriage.In heavy use apps. some guys have had issues.I would take a look at an ASV SR 70 or 80.A better matched under carriage and a better balanced unit IMO.But always remember its cost some bucks to maintain ANY track machine.Important to remember that when bidding a job.The TL series Dirt Digger2 mentions above is also a good choice.Probably lower operating costs than a Cat or ASV long term IMO.Another option could be a mid sized wheel machine like a 242 Cat or something similar with a 12 or 15" VTS system on it.The VTS performs well with reasonable long term costs from what I have seen.The wheel machines seem to lose less resale value than track units in my area.Something to consider.

ksss
11-18-2007, 05:40 PM
The tracked machine resale is not great. That is point to consider on initial purchase. They cost more up front and they appear to be worth less when you trade. Drives the point I guess to make sure you need one before you buy one.

KRtraxx
11-19-2007, 09:03 AM
I agree with you 100% on your point Ksss. If there is some way you can do your work without tracks? Do it..Your cost and profit will be much better if you can do without them..I have seen quite a few guys try floatation tires on their skids with some decent results instead of their standard tire also.I would make a guess that you could improve traction in some conditions about 25% or so with the right bigger tire selection.(depending on work conditions)
There are jobs though where tracks are mandatory.If you dont need tracks ALL the time I have seen some decent results with guys putting on the Solideal over the tire rubber tracks.Easy to put on and off(20 min.on/ 5 off) and improve traction/floatation tremendously over tires.They dont replace a track machine,but for the guy who only needs tracks/rubber tracks from time to time they are an excellent choice.No drive chain removal,easy on and off,lighter than steel,you can drive on concrete without marring and are quiet to run.They run about 3-4 K for 10 or 12 inch tires.
The factory track machines CAN do a LOT of work.I am NOT refuting that point.But some of these poor guys in this area are losing 40- 50% of their initial cost at trade in time with only 1500- 2000 hours.Figure your cost per hour off of those numbers and it will be an eye opener.The reason most guys trade that often is because they are concerned that at those hours the undercarriage will need some attention.And that isnt cheap. I used to sell skids/MTLs for Cat and now sell ASVs ,NewHollands and Mustangs so I'm very familiar with the ASV style/Cat undercarriage cost... It works...But its not cheap...The only way to justify those kind of costs is what conditions/days can you work that you wouldnt be able to work without an MTL..

Boddie
11-19-2007, 11:47 AM
wow! That's a lot of money lost on trade. So are the mustangs, gehl type UC's less expensive to operate opposed to the car/asv?

KRtraxx
11-19-2007, 07:17 PM
wow! That's a lot of money lost on trade. So are the mustangs, gehl type UC's less expensive to operate opposed to the car/asv?

Well the Gehl/Mustang UC,s dont ride as smooth as the ASV/Cat style do But their cost of operation Is quite a bit lower from what I have seen so far.First off they use steel roller idlers instead of the rubber coated ones Cat/ASV uses.Those rollers are definately tuffer than the rubber ones in abrasive conditions.This in itself brings the costs down long term.The Cat/ASV style also use an internal squirrel cage drive for their track versus the traditional through the track drive sprocket Mustang/Gehl use.WAY less moving parts normally means less to go wrong.Then we have the cost of the tracks them selves.In general terms for a small to mid size machine we are talking somewhere in the 3K range versus the 5 K range for the ASV/Cat style.. In summing up "cost"of operating? IMO the Mustang /Gehl is definately lower and I sell both the ASV and The Mustang so I have nothing to gain by promoting or knocking either.Am just sharing some facts I have learned over the years of doing this.
There are a few other points that should be brought up here though so you know all the pros and cons.The ASV style causes less ground/turf disturbance when turning than the Gehl style.And since its tracks(ASV/C) are made with Kevlar instead of steel imbedded cables the Cat style tend to flex better in cold weather.
In general the M/G style are more agressive and DO work better in wetter sloppy conditions.In clay or sticky soils the ASV/C styles treads tend to plug up easily and then your traction erodes fast.. In fine finishing and dryer soils the A/C style works excellent...Its all a compromise guys.The only thing I have seen that in general does the rough stuff AND the finishing work with a fairly decent suspended(in front) ride is the smaller framed(12"&15") VTS systems on a mid size machine.From the results Ive seen NO factory track machine in its respective HP catagory can out push,out lift,or out sidehill a VTS comparable midsize machine.This has been proven many times in real world conditions.Plus the cost per hour of operation is VERY reasonable.
The larger frame VTS(18") are work horses and very tough with proven top performance.But they are NOT as good at putting a finishing grade on a project as a small VTS or a ASV/Cat style MTL... There are some less agressive 18" VTS tracks out now(similar to the 12s and 15s) but I personally have not used one yet to give you any feedback...

Digdeep
11-19-2007, 07:39 PM
KRtraxx- welcome to the forum. If you've read through all of the posts I'm sure you've seen that people here are passionate about their favorite machines. What are your thoughts about ASVs new undercarriage packages? They seem to be attempting to address some of the higher operating costs you speak about. It also appears that ASV has gone to a steel roller on the rear of their RC50/60 machines and are now using duocone seals on the front and rear idlers too. Have you had a chance to look at their new agressive track for the RC50/60? I do a bit of snow removal in the winter and was wondering if you attended the dealer meeting they had in October and possibly tried them out?

Digdeep
11-20-2007, 08:43 PM
I used to sell skids/MTLs for Cat and now sell ASVs ,NewHollands and Mustangs so I'm very familiar with the ASV style/Cat undercarriage cost... It works...But its not cheap...The only way to justify those kind of costs is what conditions/days can you work that you wouldnt be able to work without an MTL..

KRtraxx...I did some work up in Eau claire late this summer down county road QQ just North of Altoona Lake helping a friend install a sprinkler system in his yard. I didn't know there was a ASV dealer there otherwise I would have stopped in to look around. I can't seem to find a dealer in Eau Claire using ASV's dealer locator on their website. Are you guys a new dealer?

KRtraxx
01-15-2008, 05:57 PM
Dig deep I am sorry I have not been on here to respond to your post.Been swamped lately... The dealership for ASVs is Duffy Sales out of Barron,Wi(North on EauClaire).I would consider their mechanic one of the best for ASV in the country.Even ASV themselves has made comment of that.
I sure wonder what is going to happen with ASV and the the VTS now that Terex has bought them out.They bought Cats 24% out too.Maybe they will promote and market them different.Will be interesting. :)

bobcat_ron
01-15-2008, 08:42 PM
Huh?!?! Terex bought out ASV?!?! Since when?

Construct'O
01-15-2008, 10:18 PM
Huh?!?! Terex bought out ASV?!?! Since when?

You snooze :sleeping:!!!!!!! You loose:drinkup::usflag:

Ausman
01-18-2008, 02:19 AM
If your looking at landscaping you cant go past the ASV with 50/50 weight displacement unlike all other machines with 75/25 there is vertially no lawn tearing. Landscaping the lighter the better is what they do down here they buy and RC50 and use it like a 287. On slopes the rc50 goes where the 287 stops and spins and in 1 case rolled over backwards. The c series for you interest is now 80/20 displacement that is why they cant keep tracks on them.

KRtraxx
01-18-2008, 06:51 AM
The lighter a machine is the better it does where a light footprint is needed for landscaping.And granted the ASV does have the lightest footprints in the industry,many of my customers love them and would never switch.But some customers want to lift a lot also and still have a fairly light foot print.For these type of customers I would like to make note of the fact that the New Holland L170 or L175(2 of the lightest wheel skids in their class and also a 60-40 weight distribution instead of 75-25) equipped with a 12 or 15" VTS will provide a fairly light foot print also but will flat out out do the RC 50 or 60 in weight lifting,pushing,up and down hilling and side hilling situations.The bucket also has much better rollback so you can work down hill and still back out with a FULL bucket,no spilling.A huge advantage with the stability for working on steep slopes the VTS and NHs balance provides.Also when loading trucks with a full bucket at height the stability can not be matched by the same size factory track units.Gives you a feel of confidense,even full height lifted and loaded.Visibility is excellent,especially to the rear,the new cab is extremely quiet(even better with the opt. xtra insulatin package) and the new pilot controls work well.The resale value on these wheel units is excellent and you bolt the same VTS onto your next new skid...A good return on your investment long term with very low operating cost.Thats pretty important when bidding a job.Your competition may adopt these lower operating cost policies..If that happens, guess who will out bid you and still take home the bacon?? Food for thought guys..
*Should make note of the fact that Deere units also have the 60/40 weight distribution and the good rollback on the bucket.But they are heavier so you dont get quite as light of footprint.
No machine is right for everyone.Just trying to shed some light on the options out there so you can match one up to what suits your business the best...

Ausman
01-18-2008, 07:14 AM
Deere dont exist in Australia, they are seen to not meet the conditions here and are rarely prefered, the army bought deere units and quickly rented ASV off me when we were hit by the cyclone. As i said if you add the VTS to a New Holland it is far more expensive than a track Cat or ASV and the vertical lift is not accepted here as it does not have the reach to retreive attachments from a vehicle, their hitch frame is so close to the main frame there is no reach to reach over the edge of the truck or trailer to hook up. Also you may note that in australia all ASV have a counterweight, as part of the au upgrades stability is not a problem.

KRtraxx
01-18-2008, 07:20 AM
Your point about the reach at trailer bed height is a good one.Very true,The vertical lifts dont reach as far at those heights.Didnt know Deere was not down under.

bobcat_ron
01-18-2008, 11:53 AM
Deere's aren't even used here in the recycling industries, Bobcat ditto, the only machines I ever see here in the Lower Mainland are Thomas and Case radius path loaders.