Tires or Tracks

[Total Landscape Solutions]

I have read almost all the posts in the Heavy EQ. forum (and posted some) regarding the tires/tracks debate.

Just wanted to know from fellow hardscapers which one they prefer. I have used both working for other companies where we did landscape and hardscape work. But I'm wondering for those who focus on harscapes if you had to have one machine would it be tires or tracks?

[forestfireguy]

My opinion is tracks are the only way to fly. I would never buy a tire machine unless it was strictly for snow work....but thats a little outside the realm of your question. And a little bit more on tracks, we have a t300 and a t190, we looked pretty hard at the CAT track machines until we saw 2 things that were kinda scary, one thing is that suspension system, it kind of eliminates digging and grading with any kind of precision since it dips the machine and digs you in more than you might want it to. Also they make you sign a list of things the machine "isn't designed for" and looking at that list about all they want you to do with it is move dirt. Go bobcat, and stick with a dedicated track machine, those over the tires tracks are not the same thing, better than nothing but not the same as real tracks............

[McLandscapingInc]

Tracks. We also use the Bobcat T190s and have no complaints.

[SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES]

Down here in the South. Tires are worthless unless you are working strictly on asphalt. Tires don't care too much for Sand and Clay which are our two dominant soils. Tracks are more expensive, but will keep you working on days when you have to park the tire machine.

[wurkn with amish]

I also vote traCKS. My machine of choice is the tacheuchi

[crazymike]

I'm thinking about getting a Komatsu tracked machine next summer, but they are pricier than the competitors.

[cgland]

We do alot of snow removal, so tracks won't work for us, but if that wasn't the case I would definately have a tracked machine. Don't get me wrong, I love our 252B, but it does have it's limitations in rainy weather.

Chris

[YardPro]

we have a t200 here on the beach it is all sugar sand. A wheeled unit is worthless.

[kootoomootoo]

Tracks hands down.....Brand new CAT we had would strip the insides of the tracks out......found out is was an issue for a few guys. Bye Cat Hello Bobcat

[paponte]

I'm in the same boat as Chris. We use our 262 and 773 for snow also. I have loegering tracks we use in wet conditions, but they do tear the crap out of a lawn. I priced a 287 when in the market but shyed away from it.

For you tracked guys, what kind of hours are you getting out of tracks/under carriages?

[patpls]

The need for dual purpose machines (whheled for snow tracks for dirt) is where vts are going to fit perfectly, hopefully on my machine in spring too!!

[B. L. Landscaping]

If doing snow to go tires if no snow go tracks or buy a skid on tires for snow and the loegering track system for for the landscap work and just change the tires and tracks twice a year for snow. The loegering system is a dedicated track system made to bolt onto the hubs when tires are off this is a sweet system.

[crazymike]

If doing snow to go tires if no snow go tracks or buy a skid on tires for snow and the loegering track system for for the landscap work and just change the tires and tracks twice a year for snow. The loegering system is a dedicated track system made to bolt onto the hubs when tires are off this is a sweet system.

while I do like the the loegering track system, it's just not practical when it comes to price.

However, now that I think about it, a dedicated track machine costs a good 15 grand more anyways...

[crazymike]

However, on another note, they quick found that the pumps used in wheeled machines needed to be different than track machines, so you won't get the same gearing/power delivery as regular track machines

[DVS Hardscaper]

I think it's location dependant.

In MD, it's only wet in fall through early spring.

So my answer is wheeled skid loaders, WITH ADD ON TRACKS.

Sure a CTL may be the bomb! But it's in my opinion, a lot of wasted expense, especially for the residential market, because with residential work you spend a lotta time traversing and manuavering on asphalt (unloading and loading trucks(s).)

From an economical and practical stand point, buy a set of add on tracks and use them as needed.

This way you're not running on a set of tracks that are getting worn down during July and August.

In this industry, we need a machine that CAN lift a min of 3,000#. Well, the CTL's that can lift 3000# are expensive! Typically AT LEAST 7 grand more. Plus the tracks do not last long, despite what that friendly sales rep will tell you. A CTL that can lift 3000# will require a heavier trailer, and really shold require a somewhat larget truck for tugging it around. See, it all adds up to be a lotta money!

I have a rubber tire 246 and just replaced the tires at around 1300 hrs. To the tune of $760.00, which included NEW tires and WHEELS!!! BRAND NEW FROM CAT! Compare that $760 to a set of replacement tracks! Cha-ching! All so you can move around in March and November! And feed the ego!

I was darn close to buying a CTL. But decided that a set of add on tracks that can be used as necessary is a much more practical way to go from a financial stand point.

Around here, most of the small home builders all have skid steers. Skid steers with add on tracks! And they all seem to love them!

folks, think about the financial investment before you go into debt. Think anout the necessary things you can buy with the money you save from going rubber tire withh add on tracks (i.e. - new compactor, paver saw, etc.)

People always say "ya, but we need to work everyday, and don't want to be slowed down". And so do I!! And we do work everyday, as long as nothing is falling from the sky!

I used to *THINK* we needed a CTL. But we do just fine without one, and without the added expenses :)

Sharpen those pencils guys :)

[paponte]

Good post DVS! Exact reasons why I shyed away from the 287. The price difference, plus research I did on track/undercarriage replacement just didn't add up to me. Also like you said would have put me into a deckover trailer since the tracks wouldn't fit between the fenders on our current trailer. If you play in mud/sand day in day out and, maybe it's the way to go. I just find a wheeled machine more of an "all araound" machine in MY applications.

[forestfireguy]

DVS raises good points, Finances always have to be considered, really what it comes down to is where you do MOST of your work and they type of work you do. I am a fan of tracks, we have 2 track machines and one 873, all have their place, I almost wish it was the other way around, as we do lots of commercial snow. I am not sure we actually lose enough work to wet/rainy conditions that we NEED 2 track machines, having one though is definitely a luxury I wouldn't want to be without. Our track machines sit throughmost of the winter just loading salt, sometimes well take them out to stack snow, but as far as during a storm they can get pretty hairy to operate safely. One word of caution to those who use T series bobcats to load or mix salt, be sure you wash out your undercarriage well after extended use, we had both tensioner springs break and had to have several idler pulleys and studs replaced this spring, we did have a pretty careless operator who helped bring that about , he thought it was fun to ram curbs with the tracks and not gingerly walk over them, we found that out too late.

[McKeeLand]

What are the concerns with using CTL in the snow. i have never used one to do snow removal, but assumed that they would do better than a wheeled machine.

[Edgewater]

I have never operated a tracked machine.

I am surprised that everyone says that they are a must fro mud and wet conditions. I know that when I operate a mini-x in a residential type area, the rubber tracks are great because they do minimal damage.

However, in rough terrain such as our cottage where it is steep and often damp to wet, I was pushing the limits of rubber tracks, where steel tracks had no problem.

Is there something about the tracks on a loader that makes them bite better than those on a mini-x?

Just curious.

[forestfireguy]

McKee,

The same thing that makes the tracks great for little disturbance and float in the mud/sand is the same thing that makes them less than great in the snow......It's all about ground pressure, the tracks spread the weight over a greater surface area so you actually have less push power and can slide forever if you get going on some hardpack or ice. They are however great for stacking snow, you can literally drive them up a pile of snow and dump over the back edge.

Edgewater,

You really can't compare steel and rubber tracks, if you had a hard time with tracks on rocky wet terrain imagine how tires would have been, and as far as I know there is no big difference between loader and mini ex tracks.

The bottom line is that these machines are made differently for different applications, just imagine how successful a company or machine would be if it was truly good at everything.......

[mdlwn1]

What is the downside to tracks in snow? I always took the tracked machine over the wheeled one as the wheeled cat seemed to slide all over the place.

[McKeeLand]

is this true on ASV style undercarriage? i can see it on rubber over steel tracks, but i think that the ASV tracks would perform better. they are after all designed by a snowmobile company. i know this has been on here before, but check out this video of an ASV and Bobcat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--4p49ESIEo

[crazymike]

What is the downside to tracks in snow? I always took the tracked machine over the wheeled one as the wheeled cat seemed to slide all over the place.

they sometimes slip a bit more.

Personally I know a bunch of people who plowed with them last year without a problem.

Park your machine on boards at night though or else your tracks can freeze to the ground.

[B. L. Landscaping]

I looked at deere ctl's today and there track pattern is just like bobcat and I think that the tread pattern could have something to do with it in snow because I see ASV and cats plowing and they dont seem to slip that bad. ASV and cat both have the same tread pattern.

[DVS Hardscaper]

I believe if you do full time grading and seeding for builders - then a CTL is the way to go, as 99% of the time you're operating on soil - not asphalt as is the case in the residential hardscape business.

Usually, we hardscapers come across one or 2 jobs a year where tracks are needed, so we get upset and say "we need tracks, this way we won't ever have this problem". But the reality is - DO YOU REALLY NEED A MACHINE FOR A SMALL HANDFULL OF JOBS?

It's human nature that we will try to *justify* almost all purchases we make.

You can buy a NEW CTL for not a whole lotta money. But you will NOT be able to lift 3000#.

Also, the tracks rob the machine of hydraulic power. When this happens you loose digging force. And that is a FACT. So again, yep - you can buy a new machine for not a whole lotta money - not only will it not llift your pavers off the truck - it also will not quickly dig the foundation for a patio. And I know this from first hand experience. It's not theory.

Wanna have a machine with lifting capabilities and digging force? Then it'll cost you a fortune, by the time its all said and done (14000 gvw trailer, heavy truck, drivers with CDL, replacement tracks, yadda yadda yadda). Those payments during the off season will kill your business.

Think about my suggestion of going rubber tire with add on tracks. Its the way to go for a hardscaper (speaking from the soil types in my area).

[Ramairfreak98ss]

We do alot of snow removal, so tracks won't work for us, but if that wasn't the case I would definately have a tracked machine. Don't get me wrong, I love our 252B, but it does have it's limitations in rainy weather.

Chris
Whats the big disadvantage to machines with tracks and snow? I assumed theyd be more like a bulldozer in the snow than a 4 wheel tire machine spinning 4 wheels when it gets slick?

[forestfireguy]

Look back a few replies, I explained why they aren't the greatest earlier in this thread.

[Ramairfreak98ss]

Look back a few replies, I explained why they aren't the greatest earlier in this thread.

So do they just slip a lot while pushing snow? Im assuming you guys are using 10-12' pushboxes or something large on these right? I havnt used any for snow removal so i wouldnt know, but i cant see a JD 332 track or Cat 297C type machine, in the 10k weight range "slipping" enough that it cant push snow, if it was icy out, anything would slip though.

[forestfireguy]

We don't run anything bigger than an eigth foot box on a skidsteer, seems to work out best. Think about it like snowshoes, tracks equal flotation, flotation is not what you want unless you are stacking a huge pile of snow. Same with truck tires, tall and thin is better than fat and short. I have had issues with pushing only a couple times and it was on hardpack, the real issue is manueverability, once a track machine gets sliding it can go a pretty long way defore stopping, hopefully not in a car or storefront. We have 2 BC track machines, I have run 1 cat, though not with a pusher, I could not see a big difference, others say the cats do ok in the snow, their tracks do look more aggressive, maybe there is something to it.

[Ramairfreak98ss]

We have 2 BC track machines, I have run 1 cat, though not with a pusher, I could not see a big difference, others say the cats do ok in the snow, their tracks do look more aggressive, maybe there is something to it.

i see.. Ive heard the Cats and ASVs had the best stability and overall traction power out of all of em. Maybe still not the best in snow.

[landstyles]

We had the same tough decision. Went with tracks and will never go back. Bought the Deere CT 322. What a beast. Unloading and moving around skids of pavers and wall is a breeze. Tested out the others and the Deere had the power. The track after a full season of hard and soft landscaping is still in mint condition. Not recommended for snow.
One potential problem with track machines is a bad operator. Wouldn't want to see quick 180 degree turns.

[etwman]

I would concur with this machine. After running Deere against the others the hydraulic pump lifting capacity is unmatched. If you run specs side by side with the competitors you will see quickly that Deere's pumps GPM's are higher than any others. I was never a Deere guy from the get go, but when you can take a 7800 lb machine, without counterweights, and lift 4200 lbs off a truck with it there's something to be said.

We ran the 322 for quite some time and its a good machine. Because we don't need a fully dedicated track machine all the time we'll most likely get a 320 (exact specs as the CT322) but get a Loegering VTS track system for it. www.vtstracksystem.com Everyone I have talked with says this system is phenominal. Far superior than the OEM system. You'll have the best of both worlds for the same exact price as a fully dedicated track machine (CT322) and you can go between tracks and tires in two hours with airguns and a set of jacks.

You're right, once you experience what tracks can do for you on a jobsite its very hard to look at a wheel machine again. We'll probably leave our VTS system on 70% of the time usuing the wheels for snow and street applications.

[J&B Ent.]

As someone said earlier, the biggest single problem with tracks is the operator! A guy who dosnt care with all that traction and power can really do some damage. My experience has mostly been with Mustang , Tacuchi, cat and most recently ASV, Which I have grown to realy like. For me the performance of the ASV fits my operating style best. Im not going to battle over this brand or that brand. To me it seems like they all get about 1000-1500 hrs til new tracks. but in our soil conditions here tracks are a must to work after it rains, and the low ground pressure sure makes the differance.

[mrusk]

I have a 246b wheeled machine. At the time i bought it, i was just able to make the payments on a wheeled machine so the tracked models where out of the question. Now looking back i wish i bought a tracked machine. Yes they are more money and yes they have a higher per a hour operating cost. But if your billing out at 80-90- 100 dollars a man hour, how many extra day per a year do you really need to work to make up that extra difference?

I do not know about you guys, but in my area they build on some of the worst lots ever. You often do not loose just rain days, but loose days until the site dries out.

My next machine will be a tracked machine, but i am going to keep the 246b too.

[DVS Hardscaper]

So far, in the last 14 months.....we have had NO need for a dedicated tracked machine!

Thats a nice chunk of dinero saved!

Folks, take my advice, and ETW's thoughts - think long and hard before you bite the bullet!

I'm telling you - rubber tire with add on tracks is the way to go!

keep in mind - your friendly sales rep will tell you differently :) He gets 25% of the net. And the net on such machinery is typically 10 to 12%.

[etwman]

Loegering makes a VTS system to fit mostly every wheeled skid loader on the market today. This German made product is built right and in the next couple years is going to give every dedicated CTL manufacturer a run for thier money, its already happening now. The local CAT dealer won't even plug their own CTL's, they'll attempt to sell you on a VTS and a wheeled machine already. They have 20 of these new VTS track systems shrinkwrapped and stacked beside their building. The VTS is priced so that its slightly cheaper to buy a wheeled machine NEW and but a new VTS and still come in under what a new dedicated track machine would cost. You have a track go down on a dedicated CTL and your SOL. A VTS goes down, (and its a rarity according to mostly everyone I've talked too) unbolt it and put your tires back on and no down time.

Take it a step further and buy two identical wheeled machines and a VTS that would mate up with either one. Face it, most hardscapers don't put a ton of hours on machines. Buy a 2 year old wheeled skidder with 700 hours on it and put a new VTS system on it. Its a buyers market right now for used equipment.

[mrusk]

ETW i think the VTS system is great.

[etwman]

I'm telling you Matt keep your CAT, as long as your not having problems with it, and buy a VTS system for it in the next year. If the machines craps out one day, keep the system and go buy another machine. I think the system is right around $11k for the 320 we are looking at.

Here's the other thing. This VTS, the way its set up extends the tracks further back, resulting in more counterbalance. The system itself adds around 2000 lbs to a machine. This all adds to lifting capacity.

Some heavy equipment dealers that are unaware of this system won't push this because its so new, but eventually they'll have too. Plus they'd rather sell their dedicated CTL. This local CAT dealer is taking a risk and its paying off big time. There's a local excavator that has the system on his Bob-Cat S300 and has put 2300 hours on the system with not one problem.

[P.Services]

check this machine out

and rusk or anyone else in the market call woodhams equipment in michigan he has a set of used vts's that came off a 246 cat. hes had them awhile i bet he would cut you a deal.

http://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=6201767&GUID=132BFB05BF0F468E9C0D88D9CA8EC0AD

[KTM]

Does nobody consider the wear and tear that over the wheel and the VTS track system does on a drivetrain? If you are doing light grading and running it hard once in awhile you are probably going to be o.k. I have seen many drive trains fail because of tracks over wheels, the wrong side of those repair bills are not pretty. If you do this route I would say to only use them when you need them

[etwman]

I talked to 7 dealers in the past 6 months and tabled that exact question. Between the 7 dealers over 100 VTS systems have been sold amongst them not one of these machines have had any hydraulic failure of any sort or are they aware of any at any other dealers. The sprockets on these systems are smaller which gears the system down a little so your machine will move slightly slower with the VTS system, but not by much. This protects the hydraulic system a little more. The Germans did their homework.

The hydraulic system in the John Deere CTL 322 is the exact same as thier wheeled 320 version.

[DVS Hardscaper]

One thing that turns me off about Deeres is their front reach is pathetic.

We buy pavers and plants from John Deere Landscapes.

So naturally....they use these big John Deere Skid steers in their yard.

It drives me up the wall that those big machines can not reach into the back of the truck to UNLOAD the 2nd pallet! This is because they have the front wheels and tracks positioned too far forward, which is one of the ways they are getting the extra lift capacity.

Our truck has a 15' bed. Our Cat 246 can reach a little over 2/3's of the way in. Yet the Deeres at the supplier can only reach 1 pallet length.

jus a little logistic to keep in mind :)

[SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES]

ok, so drive around to the other side. no biggie if i am understanding correctly. esp. if it gives you more lift capacity. I have run a 322 for a while now and love it. I have never checked into the VTS system, but looks interesting. Since we don't get any snow down here, i would say that i would just get a CTL and not fool with the switching back and forth if the cost are similar.

[KTM]

Companys should be beefing up there drivetrain when they develop CTL's. Thanks for the info on Deere I did not now that they were the same, It also makes me not think much of the Deere CTL's. I know a guy that had a 280 series 2 spent a crapload on his drives twice, after the second time Deere said he was on his own. We just bought a brand new Takeuchi, hope that it holds up, we went with them because they dont make wheel machines, and hope that it is engineered for the traction and stress that tracks do to a machine. The VTS system sounds pretty cool ive seen a couple around here. I just wanted everyone to think about drivelines in there wheel machines when they put on tracks, you tear one up and it will cost just as much if not more than tracks and sprocket replacement.

[TriHonu]

The sprockets on these systems are smaller which gears the system down a little so your machine will move slightly slower with the VTS system, but not by much. This protects the hydraulic system a little more. The Germans did their homework.

Exactly!
I spoke with the Loegering Reps at the Construction Expo in MN. They had multiple loaders with VTS doing demo's. I asked about the lower effective gearing in the tracks. It does slow the top speed and it compensates for the increased HP needed to turn the tracks and move the extra weight.

The Loegering Rep stated the best setup is a loader with 2 Speed. Shift in to high when you're shuttling back and forth. In high with VTS you will be close to the same speed with wheels in low.

[DVS Hardscaper]

ok, so drive around to the other side. no biggie if i am understanding correctly.

Sure...if your truck body config allows for that!

[SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES]

no disrespeact there DVS. I just figured that you were refering to a stake body or similar.

[etwman]

KTM - I'm prettys sure the 280 was the older generation John Deere and I know for a fact they had some issues those years. About three years ago they came out with a new line and corrected most of those problems. In addition, they are making some pretty significant changes in '08 from what I've heard and going to CAT controls in most of their machines. I still think you can opt for the old style controls if you wish.

One thing that no one has brought up in in tracks vs wheeled is a vital thing. We have done it many times. With a track machine you can cross over a prepped base for a patio (even with a cube of pavers) and do far less damage than you would with a wheeled machine. Even if you base is compacted perfect you'll still see tire grooves over tracks. When you need to get that skid of pavers close to your laying guys a track machine will have a tremendous advantage.

I do agree with you DVS on that reach thing though its a little pain its not the end of the world. Pick you poison I guess, reach vs lift. I'd probably go for lift.

[RockSet N' Grade]

I have VTS for my skid. I considered buying a dedicated track unit, but looked at the resale value difference between a wheeled and dedicated unit........about 10k difference minimum, so I bought a used set of VTS for about $7500. Another guy I know has a wheeled machine and bought a VTS used for about $5500. No breakage or wear issues yet with my skid although it is a little early on the hour meter to say. VTS does not void my extended warranty which was an issue as well. The tracks clean out well and are easy to clean off at the end of the day.

[tjsquickcuts]

I agree that lift is more valuable then reach. You will need to just be more creative when loading material to make it easier to unload on site. As for tires or tracks, I prefer tracks even though they are much more expensive to replace. I had my t190 in about 2 feet of mud and water and was able to move around like I was on a paved road. I have never thought about crossing over a prepared base, but I can see your point.

[etwman]

Track machines are pretty amazing in mud. You wonder how we ever managed without them the day after rain on a dug up jobsite. Especially in the spring and fall.

The flip side, get one stuck, like we did last month when we buried a 322, and you'll cry for hours trying to figure out how in the world you are going to get it out.

[tthomass]

Example I always use:

I was on a job where another contractor (pool guy) was also working. It rained that night, not a lot but enough everything was a little slick. He loaded up his wheeled machine and went home without working. Paid out to his guys, paid out his overhead and did not make any money that day.

Me? I worked..........T-190.

[KRtraxx]

ETW i think the VTS system is great.

Granted this is not about summer conditions But I just did a demo for a guy who works in the woods.(Northern frozen Wi.)This would be his first track exposure other than steel tracks. I took him 2 different machines a Mustang(Takeuchi)Mtl 16 and a Mustang 2076 with a VTS. He tried the MTL first and after only an hour was ready not to even try the second machine because of his frustration because of lack of traction.He did however decide to try the VTS machine the next day..Pretty much the end of story..He loved it and said the traction was unbelievable for such slippery conditions.Signed an order.Done deal.I sell ASV,Mustang and New Holland wheeled and tracked units and have yet to see a factory unit outperform the VTS in 90% of applicatins.The Cats/ASVs do well for fine grading though.. . For the LONG term cost factor? There is no comparison even if you CAN by the MTL at the same cost..Long term it will cost you more.Period.Less resale and higher operating costs will make your bottom line smaller.The VTS UC is a long term investment,not a throw away.. Will last several machines IMO.

[tthomass]

How does it out last a factory equiped track machine.....I know almost nothing about the system, just basics.

[KTM]

I don't think there are enough of these VTS systems out there yet to say that they are a better buy than a factory CTL, or that they are going to last longer, or the long term effects on the machine's that they are used on. I just remember the breakdowns 10-15 years ago on machines when everyone was running steel tracks. The machines then were much less powerfull and the drivelines did not hold up. I know that you say the VTS are geared for less strain and that might help. CTL's are getting much cheaper than they use to be, I don't see these as that great of a bargain unless you wanted to switch from track's to tires

[KRtraxx]

I don't think there are enough of these VTS systems out there yet to say that they are a better buy than a factory CTL, or that they are going to last longer, or the long term effects on the machine's that they are used on. I just remember the breakdowns 10-15 years ago on machines when everyone was running steel tracks. The machines then were much less powerfull and the drivelines did not hold up. I know that you say the VTS are geared for less strain and that might help. CTL's are getting much cheaper than they use to be, I don't see these as that great of a bargain unless you wanted to switch from track's to tires

You have to compare the resale of the MTL to the wheeled machine.There is at LEAST as 20-25% diff there.Advantage(wheeled machine).Used customers are more reluctant to but a used MTL.scared of UC costs.But a used wheel machine? Can be sold much easier.The only way that changes is if the guy who traded in the MTL got short changed and the dealer/owner is selling it to cheap.But if thats the case.The advantage still goes to the wheeled machine.Its the same reason so many Cat rental stores are now renting out VTS equipped Cat skids instead of their own MTLs(not all stores but a growing group of them are).Why? Because even Cat Rental knows the VTS costs less to operate.So the rental store makes more.A business choice made by one of the largest MTL manufactures rental stores in the world...USED Mtls might be getting cheaper but not new ones.Price increases have been coming 2 or 3 times a year lately for us...I sell ASV and Takeuchi/Mustang?Gehl style track machines also..So I am kind of shooting myself in the foot also by promoting the VTS..But I promised myself 10 years ago when I started this that if you tell the customer the truth and help him to improve his bottom line~~ He will come back to you over and over...

By the way Loegering has showed us a documented 4200Hrs UC off a construction 80HP machine. All rollers and sprockets still measured out at 72% life left in them.Not saying all of them will be that good.But it IS imperssive..Track life varies widely.from 800 in harsh use to 2000 at the other end.Hard to pin point...

[KTM]

KRTRAXX, I agree on some of the things that your saying. I think Cat goes with that system on there rentals because there udercarriage does not take much abuse from renters that don't care. Iam in S. WI and all the CTL's that i have priced have gotten cheaper from November 06 when I first priced them to Novemer 07. You say that they cost the dealers more, I belive you since I have no idea what dealer cost is, just must be the dealers are letting them go cheaper because of the economy. VTS must be a great system, I just don't know why any of the major companies could not design there undercariages as good as you say the VTS's are. Also what kind of warranty do you get on the VTS, and can the manufacture back out on a waranty on the machine because it has aftermarket tracks? I have seen that happen.
Thanks for your input I like reading threads from people that work at dealerships.

[tthomass]

I would say most are not worried about resale. I will buy a replacement when my T190 is dead........many years from now.

Switching from wheels to tracks........I can see the advantage of the option. I don't know how simple it is to do so that may be a PITA with downtime.

[KRtraxx]

KRTRAXX, I agree on some of the things that your saying. I think Cat goes with that system on there rentals because there udercarriage does not take much abuse from renters that don't care. Iam in S. WI and all the CTL's that i have priced have gotten cheaper from November 06 when I first priced them to Novemer 07. You say that they cost the dealers more, I belive you since I have no idea what dealer cost is, just must be the dealers are letting them go cheaper because of the economy. VTS must be a great system, I just don't know why any of the major companies could not design there undercariages as good as you say the VTS's are. Also what kind of warranty do you get on the VTS, and can the manufacture back out on a waranty on the machine because it has aftermarket tracks? I have seen that happen.
Thanks for your input I like reading threads from people that work at dealerships.

Yea your right KTM those rental people are VERY abusive sometimes.I think your right on the reason customers may be seeing lower prices on CTLs than earlier too..The economy isnt that great..
Other companies very well could design an UC thats as good as the VTS.Thats a given.But what they COULDNT build is a suspended version.ASV owns the right to that..(ASV owns Loegering VTS). And I do believe most people like that.(Its only suspended in front).There are over 7000 VTS units out there so far.If you look at ASVs sales for the year on their website you can figure that 12% of that is for Loegering(about 90-95% of that is the VTS sales)The feedback has been excellent,specially for a new concept product.Its very important to remember the attraction of the VTS is its ability to be bolted on your next skid.No more taking a bath on depreciation of your CTLs UC."THAT" is the reason comparing the cost of a new MTL/CTL to the cost of wheeled machine WITH a VTS is not quite a true comparison.Your most likely keeping the VTS long term.But the CTL/MTLs undercarriage will be traded with the machine.Now compare cost of what you can trade a wheeled machine for a new wheeled machine to the cost of trading a CTL for a new CTL.THERE is where you will see a big cost diff..

[treemover]

I have been wondering about the vts as well. I have been looking at a tk 150 or deere 332. Havent heard anything about tk's, have a buddy with deere about 700 hours and had to replace two track motors but he likes it otherwise. Now for vts, heard they are supposed to be tough as nails, but talk to a buddy that does flat work has vts on a 07 nh 170 broke a drive chain at 300 hrs, they have run nh for 15 years and never broke a chain before also they hate the reduced ground speed that vts has. does anybody have any experience like this with the vts? IS it better to have a larger machine with vts? Interest in seeing what everyone has to say

[KRtraxx]

I have been wondering about the vts as well. I have been looking at a tk 150 or deere 332. Havent heard anything about tk's, have a buddy with deere about 700 hours and had to replace two track motors but he likes it otherwise. Now for vts, heard they are supposed to be tough as nails, but talk to a buddy that does flat work has vts on a 07 nh 170 broke a drive chain at 300 hrs, they have run nh for 15 years and never broke a chain before also they hate the reduced ground speed that vts has. does anybody have any experience like this with the vts? IS it better to have a larger machine with vts? Interest in seeing what everyone has to say

For my 2 cents worth,Breaking a drive chain is very rare.I have had it happen to one unit I sold, A GEHL 7810(110HP). When we took it apart his drive chains were not tightened properly(1200hrs).On a VTS you are putting more stress on your rear chain than stock.Its important to check them every 500hrs.Loose chains are not a good thing stock or VTS equipped.The TKs are tough machines(sell them as Mustangs) but they will NOT do what a comaparable size VTS unit will do.As far as your interests in a NH? Go look at the 175 route with 2 speed and 12" VTS.Those smaller tracks ride well and the traction is excellent.Most guys are OVERtracking their skids wider than what they need.On this size unit(60HP) the 12 " has MORE than enough traction.pulls easier(less stress and fuel)and cost less.With the 2 speed your travel speed is good and the 175 does have quite a bit more torque.In this area (northern Wi.) The resale of the these medium frame NHs is excellent.Its probably one of the reasons NH sells more skids in this state than anyone else.Mn. and Wi. are the 2 largest users of skids per capita..
Be nice if some more VTS and TK owners gave you some more feedback here so you can make the right choice for you...

[etwman]

This is good information. Thanks for posting these stats. Its great to have a dealer here that knows the product and can give us a better view point.

[KTM]

I still want to know about warranty issues. TK gives the original owner a warranty of 2 years or 2000 hrs on everything except the tracks of course, that is pretty good if you ask me. I still think any aftermarket tracks or system is going to put more stres on the drives than they were designed for. Thats when the dealerships start trying to back out of issues on machines that have equipment that the manufacture did not attend to have on the machine. I have seen and heard of this alot. I would also never be interested in buying a used wheel loader that had any kind of track system on it. Bottom line is that driveline failures are very costly.

[RockSet N' Grade]

KTM....I bought a new 5640 Gehl (wheeled machine) and then put the VTS on it. I have an extended warranty and talked extensively with my dealer before I VTS'd the machine. They are backing me up 100% meaning the VTS does not void the warranty.....got it in writing from the manager. I put the 15" tracks on my machine. My only complaint: my 72" wide implements no longer cover the width of path that the machine travels. I now get implements that are 74"-76" wide minimum.

[KRtraxx]

This is good information. Thanks for posting these stats. Its great to have a dealer here that knows the product and can give us a better view point.

Thanks for the comment ETW.. Is much appreciated.I really do try to be objective here,while being honest and up front.As far as brand names I have no problem doing that.Have sold them all and they ALL have good points and bad points.Nobody has it all thats for sure..That task gets a bit harder for me with the VTS though.I am very convinced personally that it a great tool that guys can make and save money with....Have always had a passion for this industry because of all the changes and attachments coming out continually.
.Unless you have a dealer close by that serves you totally right,the biggest mistake I see is guys not checking out ALL the different brands,not just one.Knowing what work a guy wants to do and pointing him in the general direction of what you think best fits him is what a good sales persons job is.Not just getting the sale....But always remember the machine is only as good as the guys who service it..

[KRtraxx]

I still want to know about warranty issues. TK gives the original owner a warranty of 2 years or 2000 hrs on everything except the tracks of course, that is pretty good if you ask me. I still think any aftermarket tracks or system is going to put more stres on the drives than they were designed for. Thats when the dealerships start trying to back out of issues on machines that have equipment that the manufacture did not attend to have on the machine. I have seen and heard of this alot. I would also never be interested in buying a used wheel loader that had any kind of track system on it. Bottom line is that driveline failures are very costly.

KTM..your right that warranty TK has is a good one.And their UC are well built.Not the smoothest riding but dang tough.Their final drive is well built also..Easy machine to get in and out of all day...Thats important for land scapers..
The warranty on the wheeled units w/VTS is kind of an arrangement between dealer and customer.Are you taking more of a chance? I would say Yes, a bit.But the benefits IMO out weight the risks.If your dealer will work with you up front on this before you buy a VTS or another skid,put it in writing.If he wont? Go to one who will..Guess what? Next time he will think twice before he wont.Cat already endorses the VTS in most situations.They even have a model with double rear drive chains now I was told.And we know WHY that is..VTS. In so doing CAT is forcing the rest of the industry to follow suit.thats a good thing.Look whats happened with the joy stick controls.I have heard strong rumors that Gehl/Mustang may even possibly be offering VTS or a close version of it sometime in the near future from the factory.Most Mustang /Gehl dealers seem to be ok with warranty coverage on skids with VTS.Am not sure what the majority of BC and Deere dealers are doing for coverage .The New Holland dealer I sell for IS covering the warranty on the host units..

[KRtraxx]

KTM....I bought a new 5640 Gehl (wheeled machine) and then put the VTS on it. I have an extended warranty and talked extensively with my dealer before I VTS'd the machine. They are backing me up 100% meaning the VTS does not void the warranty.....got it in writing from the manager. I put the 15" tracks on my machine. My only complaint: my 72" wide implements no longer cover the width of path that the machine travels. I now get implements that are 74"-76" wide minimum.

The 15" set on a Gehl 5640 (82 hp turbo),a Mustang 2076(80HP Cummins) or the Case 440(80 HP) are some of the best performing skids out there.These are the biggest skids(HP) you can still put the smaller framed 12 and 15" sets on.Nice smooth ride,Great power to weight ratio,excellent pick and lift and all in a mid size nimble chassis thats easy to haul and tow.That extra 6"width of the bucket is an easy task for any of these units.The 18" sets will also fit on these units but for my own use I would choose the 15" set everytime..Hope you enjoy your new machine.

[etwman]

KRTraxx,

Let me ask you a couple questions if you don't mind. We are in the market for a mid-sized skid loader (60 hp range) to put a VTS system on. We've run a few different manufacturers machines but haven't run them all. We're very impressed with the lifting capacity that the Deere's have however the local dealer, who is quite large might I add, hasn't put one VTS system on a Deere yet. It kind of surprised me because of the size of them and their dealings with alot of heavy equipment. As a result they are in the "grey" area on what to do with the whole warrenty thing. I've mentioned to them politely that they need to get on the band wagon because other guys are.

With this being said, and seeing what you have seen in the industry, what manufacturer do you think would pair up with a VTS the best? Within 30 miles we have the following dealers: New Holland, Deere, CAT, Gehl, Bob-Cat, Mustang, and Takeuhi, and Case. So the world is at our fingertips and the dealers are beating down our doors.

I'm not looking for other guys to enter into a peeing contest about which brand is better with this question. I'm asking a guy who's seen it from all angles. Thanks again for your open honesty towards all this. We're sold on the VTS, we're about 75% on the John Deere if they'll honor the warranty, but they've yet to commit. Where else should we look if Deere comes back and says no? We need a machine that'll lift 4200 lbs.

[KRtraxx]

KRTraxx,

Let me ask you a couple questions if you don't mind. We are in the market for a mid-sized skid loader (60 hp range) to put a VTS system on. We've run a few different manufacturers machines but haven't run them all. We're very impressed with the lifting capacity that the Deere's have however the local dealer, who is quite large might I add, hasn't put one VTS system on a Deere yet. It kind of surprised me because of the size of them and their dealings with alot of heavy equipment. As a result they are in the "grey" area on what to do with the whole warrenty thing. I've mentioned to them politely that they need to get on the band wagon because other guys are.

With this being said, and seeing what you have seen in the industry, what manufacturer do you think would pair up with a VTS the best? Within 30 miles we have the following dealers: New Holland, Deere, CAT, Gehl, Bob-Cat, Mustang, and Takeuhi, and Case. So the world is at our fingertips and the dealers are beating down our doors.

I'm not looking for other guys to enter into a peeing contest about which brand is better with this question. I'm asking a guy who's seen it from all angles. Thanks again for your open honesty towards all this. We're sold on the VTS, we're about 75% on the John Deere if they'll honor the warranty, but they've yet to commit. Where else should we look if Deere comes back and says no? We need a machine that'll lift 4200 lbs.

ewtman..Boy I am not so sure on this one.A 60HP class machine that will pick up 4200# is a very tall order.The Deere are hard to beat in a lifting contest.Their hydaulics do a good job and their boom doesnt seem to have that dead lift spot in it that some other vertical lifts do.But if you want to stick to the medium frame I am not so sure that a 320 would lift that much weight.I have to be honest with you, Deere skids are not as popular here and I have done very few VTSs on Deere units.So I dont have any hard proof for you.I will make a few calls tomorrow and get some straight answers though.Now a 325 large frame would have no problem with that.But you would have to go to an 18" set on this size frame.So its no small unit.
The manufacturer that best accepts the VTS? Cat for sure,but not EVERY Cat dealer has..Mustang/Gehl are being VERY open minded to it.I think there "might" be some future business between these two MFGs and Loegering IMO.Case and New Holland are on a dealer basis it seems.Some do some dont.Bobcat as a company seems to have stayed the farthest away from it even though some of their dealers have not.This may be changing with their new owners now though,The jury is still out..
As far as other brand of units for what you want to do?? If you want to stay midsized you have to pick from units which end up narrower I would guess.The Cat 252 picks well but you also have to use an 18" set and its a large unit.It also is a bit rear weight biased to get that pick. The GEHL 5640 turbo(Non turbo is sluggish) or the Mustang 2066 or 2076 would probably get the job done and most dealers are covering warranty.The 2066 would be 68HP now and the 2076 is 80/82HP.All 3 use the same frame.So lift should be about the same no matter what the spec says.You can see better out the side with the Gehl power view style boom than the Mustang,But the Mustangs boom IMO opinion is considerably stronger and the bucket cylinders top attachment points are built way heavier.You could go with a 15" set and end up with a nice handy machine.The 18" set would make the unit 79-80" wide but you would gain a bit of lift capacity due to 1000# xtra VTS and a bit longer track.The Foot controls in these are cumbersome though IMO.The stalks are way to far back.I would recommend the pilot controls in these which works very well and is a true pilot system not E over Hyd..Or get the Case pattern ones.
I dont think the 60HP 175 NH would pick up that much weight. The Hydraulics would go into relief.The new NH 4 cyl.180 or 185(new higher HPs) would do very well lifting and visibility wise.Their servo assist hand/foot controls are VERY effortless and smooth.But then we get back into a unit being too large again"86" wide in this case.
The Cat 236B with a VTS is a very nice unit also in this class and a lot of unit for the money.But I am not so sure it would pick up that much weight..if someone has picked this much with one? let us know,,Love to learn..
I guess I feel that picking up 4200# with a 2000# rated loader is too much of a tall order..The only ones I have had experience with that I think IMO could lift that and still be a medium sized unit and have no issues with warranty being a problem is the Gehl 5640(82HP) Mustang 2066(68hp) or 2076.Their wheel torque for all 3 models is over 6400#.For comparisons sake a 325 Deere is 5680#. a 320 is 4725#.BC S250 is5957#.Case 445 is 5920#.and a NH 185 is 6354#.Cat does not print their wheel torque figures.Wheel torque is what you feel when you push..As you can see these models are at the top of their class and still have a medium frame....If your Deere dealer doesnt come through for you or you dont want to go to the 325 size machine? My 2 cents worth would recommend the 5640 or one of the 2 Mustangs with a 15" VTS for what you want to do.. The only negative that comes to mind is I wish all 3 had a little more roll back on their buckets like Deere or NH has..
Now dont get upset guys. I just am giving my opinion to try to help here as honestly as possible..Remember etw is states away from me..I am not making a sale here.. :)

[KRtraxx]

Sorry bout spelling your name wrong ETW ..:dizzy:

[etwman]

This is great non-biased information, priceless on this site. Here's what we have found. Most hardscapers need a skid loader with the biggest lifting capacity, smallest frame due to tight jobsites at times. Ideally it would be a machine that would weigh in around 8000 lbs so if necessary it could be moved on a 10k trailer at times. We have Freightliners so its not as critical for us. Add to that some block cubes weigh upwards of 4200 lbs. Its asking alot to find the "perfect" machine. The larger frame machines are almost too big for most jobsites.

This is what we've discovered. A Bob-Cat S185 with a VTS didn't do it, not enough lift. We've run a John Deere CTL322 many times. Basically its identical to the 320 without tracks. Pumps and everything is identical. The 322 WILL lift 4200 lbs off a 4' high truck bed with ease and not even teeter!! Hard to believe but it does. Now wouldn't you think a 320 with a 15" wide VTS would do the same? I would certainly think so. Weight wise a CTL 322 (8,305 lbs) and a 320 w/ VTS (8,405 lbs) weighs about the same. I think its pretty impressive when a machine will lift half its weight. Now we all know the specs would never indicate that but we've witnessed it first hand at least a dozen times. The million dollar question is what other manufacturer machines will do the same thing? Obviously you can't figure it fromt the specs because that won't tell you the truth. So now your in a pickle to either find a dealer that moves alot of VTS systems on their machines and get realistic specs, or you have to find someone like you who has had first hand experience. I guess the million dollar question is there another mid-frame machine out there that will have the same lift capacity as the Deere (w/VTS) that will be covered fully under a manufacturers warrenty? Also how much leanency is there in negotiating with a Deere dealer to cover the machine under warranty or is this firm from a manufacturer?

Thanks for the time.

[DVS Hardscaper]

Broken chains isn't the only thing that can happen.

The chains drive a sprocket that is attached to a small, heavy duty axle shaft / hub assembly, which the wheel bolts to.

From improper use, I have seen a solid, cast iron axle shaft break.


Anyway....see....I been telling you all for about 18 months that a dedicated CTL is a waste of money for our industry! :clapping:

[KTM]

ETWman, The Deere dealer around here in my town is known for trying to back out of warranty's especialy with skidloaders, the only people they seam to treat right are the farmers that spen $250,000 or more a year, several people around here had to go direct to the owner to get anything worked out (they own several dealers). The main person to get to know is the service manager if he is a good guy you will get treated good. I had a smaller Deere liked it alot great power for a little skid, the only thing I did not like was the cab, good luck. I guess it go's back to what everyone says, shop for a good dealer!

[KRtraxx]

ETW I am quite surprized that the 322 will pick up that much weight.Thats EXCELLENT lift.Like I said before We dont have a lot of Deeres in my sales area so I guess I really shouldnt be posting anything about what I havent seen myself.I know a 320 with wheels wouldnt do it,But the VTS changes a machine totally.If the 322 can do that,I see no reason why the 320 w VTS wouldnt do it also.I just havent seen it.When I get a chance I should stage some weighed lifts with diffrent machines and post the results..Arm lift is what is really important to you.I will get some arm lift specs on that of various machines and post that also.So many units will go into hyd.relief with a VTS on before it will pick the back up..So,Arm lift specs are very important..and the only way to judge a machine for lifting capacity without doing it first hand yourself.A VTS from what I have seen,keeps the back of the machine down very well..Let me do some research and see what I come up with.
As far as what Deere will cover or not cover? I wouldnt be the one to ask that question.Dont do enough with Deere to know.If the dealer knows you have it on,taking it off before you get service is not an option..Besides that having it in writing is the simplest and best way to go anyway.You might want to check with the Deere ag dealer in your area.Sometimes those ag guys are more flexible as to what they will or wont do for you.
Will do some research and call some other guys I know will tell me the truth.Also I have a 175 NH and a Mustang 2076 out front here,both with a VTS on them.Will do some lifting and see what they will do.Think I might be able to get a Cat 236B with VTS on and see what it will do also for my own satisfaction..

[waltero]

Jarod,

Here is a question about trailering equipment that maybe you know the answer or someone else. I know alot of people end up near or just over 8,000 lbs on the equipment and any trailer rated at 10,000lbs will probably weigh in around 2,000 lbs. Your example puts you near 8,400lbs, plus the 2,000 lbs would put you over weight.

Now I look at it for the axle weight and tongue weight, but I am not sure if it is correct. I can be wrong and I will try to find out but sometimes even the people who enforce the law don't always know.

I will use my trailer as an example, it is a 10,000 lb trailer with a tare weight of 2,000 lbs. I have never been caught overweight at a weight station but I believe that the only thing they can weigh without un-hooking the trailer is the axle weight. If that is true and I put 10% of the weight of the trailer on the tongue then that will give me a total of 11,000 lbs (trailer and equipment). Now I can be thinking about this all wrong, and if I am let me know. The total GVW and GCVW still have to be taken into consideration as well as what the vehicle is registered for.

I'm not looking at this as a loophole or anything. I wouldn't use a Ford F-350 with a GCVW of 18,000 lbs and a tare weight of 8,500 lbs tow a trailer that weight 11,000 lbs because it is still overweight on the GCVW. But if the vehicle can handle the weight, the hitch is of proper size, etc... it could work. From what I know talking to other drivers of tri-axles is that the officers will allow you to shift your load if it is unbalanced, so if your didn't have exactly 10% on your hitch, and you were heavy on the axles by a tiny bit, they would allow you to re-adjust your equipment to get you under 10,000 lbs on the trailer axles. This only works if you are still under the 11,000 lbs and your percentages were off. Again, I don't know if this is all true, but maybe someone else knows exactly.

I also will remove buckets to help keep the weight down. I am sure other do the same. Not sure what a bucket's weight is but I am sure it is at least a couple hundred.

[KRtraxx]

This is great non-biased information, priceless on this site. Here's what we have found. Most hardscapers need a skid loader with the biggest lifting capacity, smallest frame due to tight jobsites at times. Ideally it would be a machine that would weigh in around 8000 lbs so if necessary it could be moved on a 10k trailer at times. We have Freightliners so its not as critical for us. Add to that some block cubes weigh upwards of 4200 lbs. Its asking alot to find the "perfect" machine. The larger frame machines are almost too big for most jobsites.

This is what we've discovered. A Bob-Cat S185 with a VTS didn't do it, not enough lift. We've run a John Deere CTL322 many times. Basically its identical to the 320 without tracks. Pumps and everything is identical. The 322 WILL lift 4200 lbs off a 4' high truck bed with ease and not even teeter!! Hard to believe but it does. Now wouldn't you think a 320 with a 15" wide VTS would do the same? I would certainly think so. Weight wise a CTL 322 (8,305 lbs) and a 320 w/ VTS (8,405 lbs) weighs about the same. I think its pretty impressive when a machine will lift half its weight. Now we all know the specs would never indicate that but we've witnessed it first hand at least a dozen times. The million dollar question is what other manufacturer machines will do the same thing? Obviously you can't figure it fromt the specs because that won't tell you the truth. So now your in a pickle to either find a dealer that moves alot of VTS systems on their machines and get realistic specs, or you have to find someone like you who has had first hand experience. I guess the million dollar question is there another mid-frame machine out there that will have the same lift capacity as the Deere (w/VTS) that will be covered fully under a manufacturers warrenty? Also how much leanency is there in negotiating with a Deere dealer to cover the machine under warranty or is this firm from a manufacturer?

Thanks for the time.

Some specs that might interest you.I will see if I can get some for the CTLs of the same size also.
Gehl John Deere New Holland Mustang
5640 320 L175 2066

PERFORMANCE
Arm lifting force 4,200 (lb) 3,100 (lb) 3,003 (lb) 6,692 (lb) --
Bucket breakout force 5,900 (lbs) 5,500 (lbs) 4,312 (lbs) 5,820

[KTM]

Another thing to think about with the Deere, part of this disscussion is the better resale value of the wheel loader's. Deere does not have good resale in this area, I don't know if it is the bad rep that they used to have or what it is, dealers don't seem to like to take them in on trade and private owners seam to have them up for sale for awhile
KRTRAXX, is it the same up in that area of WI? New Holland and Bobcat do the best around here, I can understand NH, but I can not understand why Bobcat's do so good. Case usually fetches decent money to especially the older ones.

[etwman]

Good grief Walter, you're beyond my knowledge on this stuff. All I know is this is what we do. I have (2) trucks, one 26K GVW and the other 33K. Two trailers registered at 10k GVW. That's that. Usuful load on the two trucks are 5 and 8 tons respectively. The trailers we can haul around 7,800 lbs. If I can't make my loads work in one of those areas we don't haul it, but I haven't run into that yet. I don't do combination, I didn't want to go down that road. I run everything under a CDL B and we are fine. By law we can run up to 70,000 lb truck and pull a 10,000 lb trailer under a Class B. The minute we go over 10,001 on the trailer we need an A. This has all been confirmed by a PA State Trooper for us to make sure we are in accordance.

Back to the tracks. KRtraxx that 322 is pretty amazing, and I would have never predicted it, but chalk it up for another "you'll never know by the specs, you'll have to try it yourself." It probably comes down to that Hyd Relief that you talked about. Some machines will lift and stop, we've seen it, but not the Deere, and its balanced right to beat.

Thanks for checking on those other lines. That's invaluable information, information you can't get from dealer specs. Wish you were closer, we'd just get a machine from you and call it a day.

[etwman]

Here's an interesting link too on VTS's website:

http://www.vtstracksystem.com/data/upfiles/blueSheet2.pdf

Find a machine, that with VTS tracks, weighs 8,400 lbs or less, that will lift 4200 lbs.

[KRtraxx]

This is great non-biased information, priceless on this site. Here's what we have found. Most hardscapers need a skid loader with the biggest lifting capacity, smallest frame due to tight jobsites at times. Ideally it would be a machine that would weigh in around 8000 lbs so if necessary it could be moved on a 10k trailer at times. We have Freightliners so its not as critical for us. Add to that some block cubes weigh upwards of 4200 lbs. Its asking alot to find the "perfect" machine. The larger frame machines are almost too big for most jobsites.

This is what we've discovered. A Bob-Cat S185 with a VTS didn't do it, not enough lift. We've run a John Deere CTL322 many times. Basically its identical to the 320 without tracks. Pumps and everything is identical. The 322 WILL lift 4200 lbs off a 4' high truck bed with ease and not even teeter!! Hard to believe but it does. Now wouldn't you think a 320 with a 15" wide VTS would do the same? I would certainly think so. Weight wise a CTL 322 (8,305 lbs) and a 320 w/ VTS (8,405 lbs) weighs about the same. I think its pretty impressive when a machine will lift half its weight. Now we all know the specs would never indicate that but we've witnessed it first hand at least a dozen times. The million dollar question is what other manufacturer machines will do the same thing? Obviously you can't figure it fromt the specs because that won't tell you the truth. So now your in a pickle to either find a dealer that moves alot of VTS systems on their machines and get realistic specs, or you have to find someone like you who has had first hand experience. I guess the million dollar question is there another mid-frame machine out there that will have the same lift capacity as the Deere (w/VTS) that will be covered fully under a manufacturers warrenty? Also how much leanency is there in negotiating with a Deere dealer to cover the machine under warranty or is this firm from a manufacturer?

Thanks for the time.

A few more in this class..

Case Caterpillar Bobcat
440 236B S220 K

Arm lifting force 4,801 (lb) 4,657 (lb) 5,500 (lb)
Bucket breakout force 6,198 (lbs) 5,484 (lbs) 6,550 (lbs)

[etwman]

So it says the John Deere 320's arm lifting force is 3100 lbs. Why is it that I'm able to lift 4200 lbs? I'm assuming we're back to the famous "manufacturer conservative performance numbers". Though any numbers are a good starting point.

[KRtraxx]

Another thing to think about with the Deere, part of this disscussion is the better resale value of the wheel loader's. Deere does not have good resale in this area, I don't know if it is the bad rep that they used to have or what it is, dealers don't seem to like to take them in on trade and private owners seam to have them up for sale for awhile
KRTRAXX, is it the same up in that area of WI? New Holland and Bobcat do the best around here, I can understand NH, but I can not understand why Bobcat's do so good. Case usually fetches decent money to especially the older ones.

KTM. I agree with your post .The Deere in this area are not noted for resale.Most competitive dealers try to stay away from them.They are hard to resell here.Not sure why,except for the bad rep.they got from their first self produced models.NH and BC do very well resale wise.As do the older Case models..Cat has done well here,but in the last year seems to have lost some momentum that they had..Seems like they are concentrating more on the bigger stuff lately and less on skids.

[KRtraxx]

So it says the John Deere 320's arm lifting force is 3100 lbs. Why is it that I'm able to lift 4200 lbs? I'm assuming we're back to the famous "manufacturer conservative performance numbers". Though any numbers are a good starting point.

Yes thats what the specs say..Maybe your right and they are conservative on whats in print.Do you curl the load back when you lift the 4200#? That makes quite a diff as I'm sure you know..

[etwman]

Just as precautionary when offloading a truck, but I feel pretty confident it would have come off level. I'd rather not take that "famous ride" when you're looking at the ground (rear up) wondering what happened, if you know what I mean. Bottom line is it offloaded that much, I don't care how, as long as it did.

[KRtraxx]

Good grief Walter, you're beyond my knowledge on this stuff. All I know is this is what we do. I have (2) trucks, one 26K GVW and the other 33K. Two trailers registered at 10k GVW. That's that. Usuful load on the two trucks are 5 and 8 tons respectively. The trailers we can haul around 7,800 lbs. If I can't make my loads work in one of those areas we don't haul it, but I haven't run into that yet. I don't do combination, I didn't want to go down that road. I run everything under a CDL B and we are fine. By law we can run up to 70,000 lb truck and pull a 10,000 lb trailer under a Class B. The minute we go over 10,001 on the trailer we need an A. This has all been confirmed by a PA State Trooper for us to make sure we are in accordance.

Back to the tracks. KRtraxx that 322 is pretty amazing, and I would have never predicted it, but chalk it up for another "you'll never know by the specs, you'll have to try it yourself." It probably comes down to that Hyd Relief that you talked about. Some machines will lift and stop, we've seen it, but not the Deere, and its balanced right to beat.

Thanks for checking on those other lines. That's invaluable information, information you can't get from dealer specs. Wish you were closer, we'd just get a machine from you and call it a day.

LOL.. Well thanks for the perk ETW..I try hard to get the right info to people,Even if it leads them to someone elses unit.At least at the end of the day I sleep well knowing I did my best.Certainly dont know it all.But I try learning more everyday.Guess that why I'm on here...
Your right about the 322..Thats an impressive lift..

[KRtraxx]

So it says the John Deere 320's arm lifting force is 3100 lbs. Why is it that I'm able to lift 4200 lbs? I'm assuming we're back to the famous "manufacturer conservative performance numbers". Though any numbers are a good starting point.

ETW..I did get some info today for you..The 320 with a VTS will pick up as much as the 322 and probably a bit more..The weight is more with the VTS.Plus you get a suspension that the 322 doesnt have..As far as the warranty issues if you have a VTS on a Deere?..From what I learned today it may be a problem.Deere probably doesnt like another company taking away from their track loader sales..To get back at you for not buying the complete package with them they just refuse warranty coverage..This would frustrate me enough as a customer to look elsewhere.Those big companies ARE powerful..But as a consumer..YOU still have a choice to say no.Just make sure that they know why you went elsewhere..It might make a change in their thinking someday.
Now looking at this from another angle I can see clearly why Gehl/Mustang do not have any issues with covering warrantys on VTS equipped machines.They dont actually build their own(buying from TK) so they are being open minded about the VTS to increase skid sales..Smart..Very smart..Someday the other companies will be forced to provide coverage as the VTS market gets bigger and bigger..But until then some of them could be a problem...Knowing your service manager is very important.And having it on paper would be the best..You never know when a manufacturer may send out an update to the dealer service rep that says.NO we are NOT covering any issues on these types of units..
The good thing about this whole deal is that..There really have been VERY few issues with the skids anyway........

[etwman]

The other flip side to some of this is its a buyers market right now for skid loaders. You may have witnessed some of this first hand. If, and this is an if, we were to go the Deere route we'd almost be better off buying a used one that's a year or two old with low hours and putting a VTS system on it. If they are going to void the warranty why buy new? I actually saw one online yesterday, 2005, 80 hrs, enclosed cab with all the bells, $21,000. That's a $33k machine new. Put a VTS on it and you basically have a new machine for $30 +/-.

That makes complete sense with Gehl and Mustang, I ran a Mustang once and they are pretty smooth. From what I hear Gehl, TK, and Mustang are pretty close to being the same machine, with identical undercarriages.

Its frustrating with Deere because they are one of the bigger powerhouses, from dealer size, in this area. And we all know your buying a dealer, not a machine. The machine is only as good as the dealer who backs it.

Thanks again for your help, I'll let you know what we end up with.

[KRtraxx]

Your welcome.. Yes the track loaders from Gehl and Mustang are really TKs.Not a bit of diff except for the cab.Have heard rumors that that may be coming to an end though.Mustang/Gehl I heard may be looking at some variation of the VTS or the VTS itsself on their new wheeled skids as a tracked machined option for their buyers
That deal on the used 320 is a good one..Your right its a buyers market right now.I would take advantage of it...Its to bad your so far away..I have a demo/old price 15" VTS with about 12 hrs on it for 9900..Full warranty..I could check with my Loegering rep and see if the rep in your area has any deals on15" if you want me too.
From what I learned yesterday I would not worry about there being no warranty on the drivetrain of that 320..He said the problems on the Deere drive trains with a VTS have been zero in his 5 state area...

[Total Landscape Solutions]

KR

When I had my demo last year I asked the Deere slaes guy if putting a VTS on the Deere would void the warranty. He said it does void the warranty. Then went on to say if there was a problem and the machine showed up with no tracks on it, how could he viod the warranty. Basically "don't ask don't tell."

I'm still looking heavily at the Deere 320. My demo was a 325, I thought it may be a little large for the areas I'm going to be in.

Anyone unload a skid of block or pavers with a 320?

[etwman]

Read back in this thread. I've offloaded a skid of retaining wall block weighing 4200 lbs with a John Deere 322 CTL. If you put a VTS on a 320 you should easily be able to do the same thing. Its an identical machine. I agree with you that the 325 is a little larger than what I would like.

[DVS Hardscaper]

All this talk about Deere!

I have always been a Deere person.

I have been impressed with their lifting capability.

But I doubt I will ever own one. A skid steer that is.

Years ago, I was seriously considering buying a deere. I asked some scapers via other message boards, and many folks came back and advised of some mechanical problems they have had. The feedback i received was enough to steer me away from Deere.

Also, like I previously mentioned, our supplier 'John Deere Landscapes' has all Deeres at all their locations. And the location I go to has had some of their skid steers broken down. HOW CAN A MACHINE THAT SOLELY LOADS TRUCKS AND UNLOADS TRUCKS BE BROKEN DOWN FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD!!!!!!

We have a 1997 Gehl that has never broken down. Used for excavating....digging, breaking rock, etc. How does a machine (the Deere) that lifts pallets up and sets them down get broken down!!!???

Infact, we have an old customer. They are a John Deere Construction Equipment dealer, with 6 locations. They sell Gehl Skid loaders....not Deeres!

Personally, I could care less about "resale"!

I don't resell our equipment. Only trucks after we have ran them into the ground. If you buy the right machine from the start, and take care of it....it'll last you forever.

I bought our Gehl in 1997. One contractor said to me "I go to the auctions and Gehls are a dime a dozen at them, they have no resale value." I replied - the machine has been flawless, I paid for it on a 3.5 year note, why would I want to sell it? 2000 hrs and the German made engine doesn't burn 1 drop of oil. Unlike our CAT 246 that consumes about 5 quarts a year!

I doubt I'll ever buy a CAT again. I like the balance of CAT's machines. I like their 'No Stall' engines. But you pay a lot of money for an oil burning machine with no operator visibility. Which is very important for residential applications.

[KRtraxx]

KR

When I had my demo last year I asked the Deere slaes guy if putting a VTS on the Deere would void the warranty. He said it does void the warranty. Then went on to say if there was a problem and the machine showed up with no tracks on it, how could he viod the warranty. Basically "don't ask don't tell."

I'm still looking heavily at the Deere 320. My demo was a 325, I thought it may be a little large for the areas I'm going to be in.

Anyone unload a skid of block or pavers with a 320?

Total.. If you have a dealer that will do that for you..stick with him..The only negative would be that you have to go through the work of removing the VTS.

[DVS Hardscaper]

For our industry is important to have as small of a machine (dimension wise) that can lift the most possible. We don't want a dinasaur in the backyard of a 1/4 acre property. Which is what I think people like about Deere.

I'm a Gehl fanatic! I think the Deeres units that our material supplier have are large, bulky machines.

I just remembered that 'Construction Equipment' magazine had test operated Gehl's largest model. It was over a year ago. I remember them saying "it's the largest, strongest, skid loader on the market". But....it may be too bulky of an unit for us hardscapers.

Folks.....do your homework!!

From past experiences over the years, I'm done buying big name equipment (like the CAT we have), and I'm done with buying American trucks!

[bobcatexc]

ETWman, KTRAX or Whomever, I have a couple of quesions for you guys.

Currently I run a Bobcat 773G (S185) 56HP with Loegering OTT steel tracks and would like to upgrade to a CTL and have been thinking of the Deere CT322, the problem I can't justify 35K right now because I've only got 600-700hrs on my current machine which got thinking about the VTS. How well does the Bobcat 773(S185) handle the VTS, do you guys know does it robb alot of power.

So my next question, on the VTS website the spec chart shows different track lengths for different models is this something that can be easly adjusted, so say a 1,000hrs later I decide it's time to trade the Bobcat and go with a Deere 320 will the same tracks work.

[KRtraxx]

ETWman, KTRAX or Whomever, I have a couple of quesions for you guys.

Currently I run a Bobcat 773G (S185) 56HP with Loegering OTT steel tracks and would like to upgrade to a CTL and have been thinking of the Deere CT322, the problem I can't justify 35K right now because I've only got 600-700hrs on my current machine which got thinking about the VTS. How well does the Bobcat 773(S185) handle the VTS, do you guys know does it robb alot of power.

So my next question, on the VTS website the spec chart shows different track lengths for different models is this something that can be easly adjusted, so say a 1,000hrs later I decide it's time to trade the Bobcat and go with a Deere 320 will the same tracks work.
bobcatexc
Yes the 12" VTS would work on your 773..The 12" set rolls the easiest and takes the least HP to turn,so that would be your best choice(even for the DEERE also).Yes they do take some HP to turn.I cant deny that..But if you look at what you can perform with these on, the amount of work done will more than offset this..Your lift,push,ride and stability will be NOTHING like your stock machine.Its a totally new little workhorse.Remember ,you will lose at least a mile or more per hour travel speed.One of the biggest sellers in this area is a 12"VTS set on New Holland L170s which are only 53HP.So you WILL have sufficent but not excessive power to spare.In wet muddy conditions I have witnessed a L170 at 53HP with a 12" VTS push a LT New Holland 190(82HP factory track unit) straight backwards.The power the VTS gets to the ground is always impressive.
As far as you upgrading to a 320 Deere down the road? It can be done.You will have to readjust the main frame holes and a few other things to make this work.Its not that hard,just takes a couple hours..Also if I am remembering correctly,you will have to invert the sprocket and turn it around to work on the Deere.Some Bobcat models have the longer axles so the rear hub and sproket are mounted more outwardly,but can be changed back easily.The only part that wont work is the fact the the BC uses a 52 link track band and the Deere uses a 54 link band..So swapping the bands around with your VTS dealer will be mandatory..Long term though you will easily find out that it is one of the best returns on the jobsite you will find..I am willing to say that the UC itself(not the trackbands) will in most cases go 4-5000 hrs easily with very little to no upkeep.It wont surprize me to see 8-10K hour units still on the job down the road...I have Gehl/Mustang/New Holland and ASV new factory track units to offer for sale daily to my customers.But if it was my own money or I have a job to do??..I will choose a wheel machine with a VTS 90% of the time..

[bobcatexc]

KRtrax

When your talking about track band, I assume your talking about the rubber track itself? So if I switched from the BC to the Deere I'd have to buy new tracks which are 2-3K? I don't dout that you can get that many hrs out of the U/C which is why I was thinking of being able to switch machines but don't like the sound of buying new tracks, I'd seen that 52-54" differences and was hoping that could be adjusted out. Somebody was saying something about the old Bobcats the chains weren't has heavy would break have you heard of this.

[joesimoes2]

I also vote traCKS. My machine of choice is cat.:drinkup:

[KRtraxx]

However, on another note, they quick found that the pumps used in wheeled machines needed to be different than track machines, so you won't get the same gearing/power delivery as regular track machines

The VTS gear ratio is lower than with wheels due to a smaller drive sprocket.Size for size,HP for HP, I have yet to see a factory track machine outpush a Same size/HP VTS wheel machine..

[KRtraxx]

KRtrax

When your talking about track band, I assume your talking about the rubber track itself? So if I switched from the BC to the Deere I'd have to buy new tracks which are 2-3K? I don't dout that you can get that many hrs out of the U/C which is why I was thinking of being able to switch machines but don't like the sound of buying new tracks, I'd seen that 52-54" differences and was hoping that could be adjusted out. Somebody was saying something about the old Bobcats the chains weren't has heavy would break have you heard of this.

bobcatexc, On a Turbo 773G you should not have a chain issue from what I have seen..Keeping chains tightened IS an important point on a VTS equipped machine.....When you go to trade skids just make sure you have gotten the life out of your current track bands BEFORE you trade.or..They could be traded off on the longer bands you needed also..But most dealers would only do this if there is some good life left in the track bands your trading in..

[bobcatexc]

KTrax

Are the tracks for VTS around $1000-1500 a piece is this right? Talking about the chains, the VTS is driven off the back sprocket right? What happens to the front axle does it just free spin or is it unhooked?

[KRtraxx]

KTrax

Are the tracks for VTS around $1000-1500 a piece is this right? Talking about the chains, the VTS is driven off the back sprocket right? What happens to the front axle does it just free spin or is it unhooked?

The 12" replacement trackbands list for 1400-1600 each,depending on length.Some dealers might be selling them for some discount off this,some might not.
Yes the VTS is driven off the back sprocket only.The front hub carries the weight and the VTSs suspended hub.The chains are NOT removed to the front,so when you want to put your tires back on,its all ready to go to work with no hassels...
I might have a set of 12" with a few hours on coming in that came off a S185 .Send me a PM message if you would like any info...

[KRtraxx]

bobcatexc
Yes the 12" VTS would work on your 773..The 12" set rolls the easiest and takes the least HP to turn,so that would be your best choice(even for the DEERE also).Yes they do take some HP to turn.I cant deny that..But if you look at what you can perform with these on, the amount of work done will more than offset this..Your lift,push,ride and stability will be NOTHING like your stock machine.Its a totally new little workhorse.Remember ,you will lose at least a mile or more per hour travel speed.One of the biggest sellers in this area is a 12"VTS set on New Holland L170s which are only 53HP.So you WILL have sufficent but not excessive power to spare.In wet muddy conditions I have witnessed a L170 at 53HP with a 12" VTS push a LT New Holland 190(82HP factory track unit) straight backwards.The power the VTS gets to the ground is always impressive.
As far as you upgrading to a 320 Deere down the road? It can be done.You will have to readjust the main frame holes and a few other things to make this work.Its not that hard,just takes a couple hours..Also if I am remembering correctly,you will have to invert the sprocket and turn it around to work on the Deere.Some Bobcat models have the longer axles so the rear hub and sproket are mounted more outwardly,but can be changed back easily.The only part that wont work is the fact the the BC uses a 52 link track band and the Deere uses a 54 link band..So swapping the bands around with your VTS dealer will be mandatory..Long term though you will easily find out that it is one of the best returns on the jobsite you will find..I am willing to say that the UC itself(not the trackbands) will in most cases go 4-5000 hrs easily with very little to no upkeep.It wont surprize me to see 8-10K hour units still on the job down the road...I have Gehl/Mustang/New Holland and ASV new factory track units to offer for sale daily to my customers.But if it was my own money or I have a job to do??..I will choose a wheel machine with a VTS 90% of the time..

Would like to correct a mistake I made on here..When switching from the small frame BC to a Deere, etc.I stated you might have to invert the sprocket.That issue ONLY pertains to the larger frame BCs.On the small frames switching from BC to another brand in an easy task....Sorry I stated it wrong guys..;)