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View Full Version : New to me dump truck....Maybe


ksss
11-18-2007, 12:43 AM
http://lakecitytruck.vihn.net/detail.asp?recordid=100179516&IndID=1&Cat=7


I have a truck similiar to this one sitting in my yard like an abandon puppy dog wanting a new home.

The bed is awesome, the truck is light... 12K fronts 40K rears, four bag air. 430 hp Detroit series 60 mileage is just over 7 large. The frame is not doubled but has a subframe for the bed. Again not overly heavy duty. These trucks are former Walmart trucks. Ten speed tranny....did I say the bed is awesome.

Very nice driving. Very comfortable for the most part. Little louder in the cab than the 1990 378 Pete I sold with my side dump.

Negeotiating trading in two older IH trucks for this one and of course about 25K. Any thoughts other than the price is high for a highway spec. dump truck?

RockSet N' Grade
11-18-2007, 01:21 AM
What are your considerations as far as having a tag axle?

ksss
11-18-2007, 01:35 AM
It could be done but the hyd tank and battery box would have to be moved. There is room for one. A drop axle would be nice. The tires are new or nearly so, I wish they were 24.5 and not 22.5, I would consider losing one of the fuel tanks as I don't need to hold 350 gallons of fuel at a time.

2004F550
11-18-2007, 02:30 AM
thats too much money bottom line for that truck

Gravel Rat
11-18-2007, 03:29 AM
Looking at the pictures then looked at the price holy crap I wouldn't touch that truck with a 10 foot pole at that price. A truck like that as a tractor would only be worth 15,000 dollars with 20,000 being the highest. The box is 15 grand. The truck is 20,000 dollars over priced.

There is a guy on HEF with the same truck he has to change the front axle but I think he is going to sell his truck.

Problems with that truck the first one it has the small block series 60 the 2nd problem its got a 10 spd 3rd problem its got a set back axle that is rated at 12,000lbs. The fact the truck isn't double framed isn't a big deal you can put inserts into it. The 40,000lb rears are not the greatest but if you stick on pavement they should be alright. I would rather have 22.5 rubber over 24.5 it is slightly cheaper.

Keep searching you will find something better.

Scag48
11-18-2007, 04:22 AM
That truck is way overpriced for an OTR conversion. My buddy bought an '89 Pete with an 18' foot box, lift axle, 425 HP Cat I think it is with an 18 speed for somewhere around $40K about a year ago. I'm personally not a fan of Detroit diesels and that 10 speed could be a little challenging at times in them thar hills. Just my .02

Fieldman12
11-18-2007, 10:46 AM
It is too high of a price for the truck. The Series 60 Detroit are good motors but they don't have the resale of a Cat and in some cases Cummins. Another things is IH and Freightliner don't have the resale of a Peterbilt. My buddy just bought a top notch W-900 Long nose Kenworth with leather intereior, 550 Cat, and I think it's the 84" sleeper for about the same money. Granted this has a good dump bed but they are just asking too much for the truck. It has the rimms you will have to paint all the time also which for me would I go be against it.

Fieldman12
11-18-2007, 10:48 AM
The Kenworth's have high resale also and of course they are owned by Pacar. Kenworth and Peterbilt are the top dogs in my book. If you want something at a good price though by a Freightliner, IH, Sterling, or even a Mack.

dozerman21
11-18-2007, 10:53 AM
I agree with the others. That truck is way overpriced and if the mileage is correct, I wouldn't go near it even if it was 25K less. Keep looking, you can find something better.

ksss
11-18-2007, 11:55 AM
The mileage is a concern but not the biggest. I will have it blow by tested. I have not owned a Detroit Diesel (bigger than a 6.5TD). I have asked around and they are way cheaper to rebuild certainly than CAT and they get decent mileage. Your correct they will not resale like CAT or Cummins. It has plenty of go (especially when your used to an L-10) and the reduced resale is not likely an issue for me.

Price really is the big issue as I figured it would be. He came down to $50K rather easily. The truck at auction is a 30-35K truck. Some advantages are the trucks are maticulously maintained, there are 5 of these trucks running locally and have some have had them almost a year. I have spoke to almost all the owners and not one negative comment from any of them. One of the owners is gravel pit operation and they plan on buying another one (likely the one in my yard if I don't take it). I really would like to just trade my trucks in 85 2300 and 84 2574 both with L-10s both good, solid trucks. If he will give me what I want, I may do the deal. He is already having issues with my number on the single axle truck. It is not likely to happen. The search goes on. Oh. I did an informal resale evaluation. It appears that across the board KW has the best resale value. I personally perfer the seating position in a Pete better.

The ten speed is not the Super Ten the gates are close together. It would take some getting used to. I prefer the 24.5 tires to get the truck off the ground when off road.

bobcat_ron
11-18-2007, 11:58 AM
The mileage is way too high, take it for test drive and do a pre-trip on everything, something will pop up.

tthomass
11-18-2007, 12:55 PM
I included two links below for you. The 1st is the Dad, the 2nd is the Son. I had some work on 'blue' done at the 1st. They have a large inventory and turn about 80-100 trucks in a month. They're back home and I see their trucks all over the place up here and elsewhere......take a peak.

http://www.atkinsontrucksales.com

http://www.jandjtrucksales.com

RockSet N' Grade
11-18-2007, 03:20 PM
Thought about this for a little bit........If we can agree that this economy is soft and getting softer and winter is approaching, is this the right time to spring for a new truck? Is this a need or a want? If the market is getting softer, wouldn't there be extra availability of trucks/drivers in your area to satisfy your job requirements vs. purchase at least until deep winter is over and spring is on the horizon? I am of the opinion right now to keep what I have and make due, reduce debt and outsource to fill the gaps. If the economy in general continues to falter, the deals you see now will be nothing compared to the fire side sales on the horizon. If your proposed move is for tax reasons, basic costs of unloading your two and getting a new "one".....the overhead numbers stay the same, then I would consider the exchange. I think I would consider just "dumping" the two trucks in your inventory and putting the cash in your pocket.

Gravel Rat
11-18-2007, 03:22 PM
The T-800 is the better vocational truck but after talking with a few guys the best bang for the buck right now is a Sterling. Take for instance a brandnew T-800 with 550 Cat power and a 16'6" West Coast box and B.C. spec'ed runs 165,000 a Sterling 9500 with 550 Cat power same driveline spec's as the T-800 runs 149,000.

For a used truck my preferance would be find a 1997 L-9000 Ford with the Louisville Cab 425 Cat with 18spd 20 front 46 rears on spring. The old Ford steer better you can take a Ford into places other trucks can't go because the Ford steers sharper.

The W-900 Kenworth and the 379 Pete don't steer sharp enough especially if your running 425 supersingle steers.

I don't think I would go with a Mack they are a little underpowered and the older ones are not really driver friendly.

Western Star is a popular truck in Western Canada but I seems like its not so common down in the USA. The 4964 Star is a good dump truck chassis you can find trucks with Big block series 60,Cat 425 and N-14 Cummins power.

The diameter difference bettween a 11R22.5 and 11R24.5 is 2 inches the only real difference is the 11R24.5 can carry 615lbs more weight per tire.

11R22.5 8 of them can support 47,960lbs the 11R24.5 52,880lbs.

Any trucks you choose will be better than the old Cornbiners with L-10 power :laugh:

Used to drive a 2674 International what a rattly truck the nicest trucks are the L-9000s. I also drive a 5000 Paystar it does only short hauls but its not a nice truck to drive.

One thing to remember with Pete is your paying a extra 10 grand just for the name with its Paccar brother Kenworth is a better offroad truck. I like the old W-900A model Kenworths but they are pretty much useless for the places we have to go into. The truck doesn't turn sharp enough like one of the drivers said you need to be a magician to get a "A" model into the new building sites. More and more homeowners want the narrowest driveway as possible GOD FORBID can't cut down any trees :realmad:

The homeowners are TOO STUPID to realize it costs them more money to save some trees than it does removing them. Usually what ends up happening is the tree they tried to save get chopped down because the trucks have taken chunks out of the tree or damaged the roots.

The fire dept even mandates the driveways have to be large enough to get a fire truck into or your house burns down. Some of these driveways are 1/2 a mile to couple miles long. One driveway is used by 2 or 3 homeowners.

Usually once you go down them your committed to follow it right to the end most of the time there is no place to turn around. Some of them once you go down the slope trying to backout is nearly impossible. I have walked 2 miles before I gone down some of these places its easier than getting stuck :laugh:

ksss
11-18-2007, 04:00 PM
I will never have a FORD truck on the place I don't care how good they are and really I would lump them in with IH so I would stay with IH.

I checked the link given and certainly some nice trucks. I don't want to spend 80-90K on a truck. The other issue is buying a truck in VA. is a long way from Idaho. The price would have to be really right.

I don't know why Western Star is not as popular here. They look like very well built trucks.

As far as tire size, two inches is well two inches, a dump truck needs as much clearance as possible that requires riding on 24.5 rubber.

As far as timing and economy well I need a truck and if the price is right I will buy it . I have weathered the ups and downs since the early 90's. The economy is not going to stop and I will always have work especially for a dump truck. I am not in a position to have to buy one. This is an option that came up and if it plays out favorably I can do it. If not running the old IH truck for a while longer is not a big deal.

Gravel Rat
11-18-2007, 04:43 PM
If your in the excavation business you need a dump truck like as you guys said its is a necessary evil. The contractors here are buying new trucks they need a truck they can't afford to keep old trucks running. A new gravel truck comes with a 3000 a month payment but is some cases its still cheaper than dealing with a old truck. The used trucks on the market in B.C. right now is junk anything from 20 to 30 grand can be classed as site trucks. Its amazing how much junk is out there selling for redicoulos prices.

Gravel trucks are the worst because they are worked hard. For us in B.C. its easier to build a truck from a logging truck. Logging trucks are usually spec'ed with decent power and have the right suspension etc. The problem is the wheelbase is too long so you have to move the axles forward to shorten the wheelbase. There isn't any used dump boxes on the market so you have to buy a new box that isn't cheap at 20-25 grand.

If you got a truck that is on its way out it maybe time to get a newer truck. When a truck gets to the point it needs constant repair it is time for the truck to go.

The problem with International trucks along with Fords is RUST. The cabs rot off of them. International trucks have horrible wiring problems they seem to be the worst. The 2674 I drove and worked on had nightmare wiring. Dads 1800 has bad wiring and the 1700 I worked on more wiring problems.

The Western Star trucks do get cab rust but that is the only problem they have. The cabs on the older Western Stars to 95 have the narrow cab which is narrow. I'am only 5'9" and average weight I found the Stars a little too cramped. The newer Stars have the Constellation cab you can tell it has a bulge in the middle of the cab and narrow on top. Myself I find the Constellation cab a little on the ugly side compared to the older trucks.

If you have big feet you will have troubles driving a Western Star the pedals in the cab are really close together.

No Pete dump trucks in the area I don't know what they are like. Pete's are mostly road tractors.

ksss
11-18-2007, 04:55 PM
The big contractors here all buy new trucks and for them the uptime is worth it over the nonpaying wrench time on the older trucks. That of course is not an option that I have.

Petes and common here as are KW for dump trucks. They are more money. I have had no issues with my IH trucks in any way. They just are not that comfortable to run. Granted they are 80's trucks. As stated that IH trucks don't resale like KW or Pete nor are they as nice of a truck in my opinion.

To get in the same price range as this 01 IH 9200 I would 94-95 in a Pete or KW. I have no problem with that but it shows the resale difference.

RockSet N' Grade
11-18-2007, 05:03 PM
I did not mean to come off as a nay sayer - if I needed a truck, I'd buy it no questions asked. You have to have the right equipment to do the job, and you are right in that there is always work to be done. Having reliable equipment is key. What kind of warranty will Lake City give on that truck?

ksss
11-18-2007, 05:43 PM
No warranty mentioned. I am sure I would have to negeotiate that in or he would have mentioned it.

bobcat_ron
11-18-2007, 06:38 PM
Pete's are picking up in popularity here now, along with Mack.

wanabe
11-18-2007, 08:37 PM
That truck better have several bars on gold in the bed for that price! Road trucks make bad tandems! They are all speced as light as they can get and the air ride sucks. Just drive one for a day and you will know. Air ride is as bad as it gets in a tandem! It wastes so much time airing up/down the bags on every load, especially doing short haul site work. Leave them filled up when dumping and you will be calling the big hook. They usually do not have locking dif. in them either. Not to mention the 12,000LB front axle. Find a old L-8000 or 9000 and you will be better off.

SiteSolutions
11-18-2007, 09:27 PM
I don't know why Western Star is not as popular here. They look like very well built trucks.


I drove a Western Star tri-axle awhile. Not impressed with it, wasn't as tough as it looked. That was a few years ago, though.

Drove a lot of Macks and they were small, cramped, loud, dusty, etc... but they were pretty tough, held up well to vocational use.

2109 Stang
11-18-2007, 10:18 PM
KSSS you could put together a much better truck than that for around 35K to 40K I don't care if it is an Int'l or freightliner or whatever as long as your happy with it but it must be double framed or else it will bend behind the cab, the Detroit at this time is provably the best engine ,reliability and fuel economy can't get any better ,the only engine close to Detroit economy is the M11 cummins ,I really like cummins but try to stay away from N14 they go thru a lot of injectors and censors and also that price is way to high,if you are only hauling 10 to 13 tons double frame might not be necessary.

Fieldman12
11-18-2007, 10:48 PM
I can tell ya the series 60 detroits are good for a million miles. My best friend, him and his dad have Cummins, Cat's, and Detroits. They have had several of the series 60 last over a million. Matter of fact they just had one blow up last week. You can reach in the side of the block and touch the pistons.

Fieldman12
11-18-2007, 11:13 PM
I dont know allot about Western Star trucks but I think they look nice. Now i dont know if this still hold true but I heard why there not so popular is because they rust unlike a Peterbitlt, Kenoworth, Freighliner and so on. Maybe they have changed though to what the others use and now dont rust. Anyone know???

Gravel Rat
11-19-2007, 04:12 PM
Western Star trucks have steel cab on them so they do rust. Western Star is the most popular plow truck almost every highways maintenance contractor in B.C. runs a fleet of Star tandem and single axle dumps.

As for frames a heavy single frame is good enough for a dump truck that stays on the road. I never seen a dump truck bend behind the cab but then again 99% of the trucks here are vocational spec'ed trucks not tractor conversions. A dump truck here is only legal to carry 15 tons that is a regular tandem axle. A tri-drive dump truck is good for 23 ton but a tri-drive dump truck doesn't get into tight places with a 20' box and with three drive axles on the ground the tire scrub makes the trucks poor turning.

For us a tandem axle dump has a gvw of 57,540lbs so we are allowed 20,000lbs on the front axle and 37,478lbs on the tandems. You really don't want to carry anymore than 15 ton your just killing the truck. The trucks that pull a quad axle transfer trailer are grossing 134,000lbs that is alot of dirt and the truck is really working hard.

If your a contractor who is hauling to their own jobs your paid by the hour the guy with the tandem axle with the drop axle is killing their truck faster and probably not making much more per hour than a regular tandem axle.

You guys are only allowed 33,999lbs on the tandem and front axle weight of 12,000lbs but are able to have a 20,000lb front axle capacity which really limits "legal load" carrying without drop axles which hinder offroad use.

I have driven tandem axle dump trucks with a overloaded box. It is not nice running a tandem axle truck with 20 tons in it even if its a heavy spec'ed tandem with 425hp. A legal load of 15 tons is good enough a truck only has so much braking power and relying on the JAKE brake isn't a good idea.

One thing that really makes a diffrence is full axle locks in both drive axles it sure is night and day compared to a truck without. All I have run is trucks with open diffs then I watched a few trucks with lockers trucks walk out of places I had to be pushed out.

Somethings to look for is 14 litre power, heavy front axle (18,000-20,000) rear axles (44,000-46,000) 13 or 18 speed transmission or 8LL. People don't spend enough time offroad to make a 15spd beneficial. How many of you with 15spds use the 5 deep reduction gears ?

More power you have alot nicer the truck is to drive and less wear and tear on the driver. More power thou definatly requires 44,000 or 46,000lb rear ends.

Like I said earlier any truck will be a improvement over the Internationals.

Scag48
11-19-2007, 06:29 PM
Our conditions here are much like GR's, most of the trucks out here have big power, 13 speeds at a minimum, double frames and most have Hendrickson suspension, heavy front and rear axles, lockers on the back two axles, and most have a lift axle. Conditions are tough here, lots of hills, lots of nasty places and rough roads. I drove a water truck out in an orchard when we were pulling trees that had lockers on the back two axles and a diff lock for the front axle. A straight up mountain goat that truck was, felt like you'd roll it over before you'd run out of traction.

In regard to this truck, I think much better can be had for the price. I don't mind IH trucks and wouldn't hesitate to buy one, but it seems like there's a lot of about this truck that isn't desireable, at least in my opinion.

Fieldman12
11-19-2007, 10:23 PM
I have been in pretty much all the brands and to me having a steel cab these days is not a good idea especially when other brands have something that will last for the most part forever. Freightliner makes good trucks for the money but the dashes are pretty much a POS. I have seen nothing but tarp straps holding them in the trucks before. Mack has always made real tough trucks also but the old ones had the steel cabs and where like others said noisey, small cab and kinda crude. IH makes a good truck but like others said the cab likes to rust bad on the old ones. I really like the looks of western Star but dont want that steel cab. For as fancy of a truck they have that cab is really hurting them. I think Peterbilt is my favorite but Kenworth makes a little bigger and better bunk in my opinion if a guy needs one. On the good side you can get a sun tan on each arm in a Peterbilt. :)

Gravel Rat
11-20-2007, 03:32 AM
When you buy a Pete you have to have the Pete attitude. When you drive your truck you let all the air out of the seat and almost sit on the floor. The truck has enough lights to light up a city. The visor on the truck hangs so low you only have 6 inches of windshield to look through :laugh:

bobcat_ron
11-20-2007, 09:27 AM
Funny, I'm putting air into the seat of our Pete.

Gravel Rat
11-20-2007, 02:16 PM
Bobcat ron next time your running around Vancouver look at the guys driving the Petes all you see is their head in the driverside door window I don't even think there is any travel left in the seat.

Then with a 379EX the hood is so long and you sit so low its like running a freighter with rear house you can't see anything infront of you.

bobcat_ron
11-20-2007, 04:11 PM
Those are the pricks with the huuuuuuuuge Pete's, I'm not 100% sure what ours is, but it's the one preferred for "actual" visibility.

Dirt Digger2
11-20-2007, 06:13 PM
you can see fine is both our Pete 10wheelers...the tractor cab is a long nose so it's a little more difficult but the 10 wheeler dump and tank truck we have are great

wanabe
11-20-2007, 07:33 PM
I will take a steel cab over a alum. cab any day. Just drive a pop rivited alum cab and you will find out that they are junk. After time, the alum cab will loosen up due to the fact that it is not welded. Doors rattle and just fall apart, making them almost impossable to shut after they get a lot of miles on them. We have had several new tractors(International, Mack, and Freightliner, all new), and will not buy anything but a Mack.

Fieldman12
11-20-2007, 08:06 PM
Freightliner has always not had the best of doors I can tell you that even when new. As far as Kenworth and Peterbilt goes never had an issue with even the old ones rattling that much. I mean lets face it a metal cab truck body will have a hard time lasting a million miles and look pretty good. All the rattles we ever found was not body related. It was usually the dask, or doors.

Fieldman12
11-20-2007, 08:07 PM
Macks are good dump trucks there is no doubt about it and even make good semis but they are not that popular at least around here. Mack use to be way more common than they are now.

Scag48
11-20-2007, 08:37 PM
The problem with Mack is that when you need parts, you have to buy Mack parts at their hefty prices. I'll agree, they're good trucks, a good friend of mine had one and it was a solid truck. But, he said if he needed parts for the frame or body of the truck, parts were expensive because you were stuck getting them from Mack.

wanabe
11-20-2007, 09:00 PM
Mack parts are high, but I personally think that peterbilt is higher. I put a new mufler on my fiends 377 a while back and needed the 4 small rubber grommets that bolt the stack to the cab. They were $37.xx each, all for a gromet that is about 1 inch in size! I also had to do some work on the suspension bushings and they were very high also.

Gravel Rat
11-20-2007, 11:05 PM
The new Mack Granites are okay but they are still underpowered. The truck is rated at 460hp but has no bottom end power. The cheapest to buy trucks on the market now is Mack and Sterling they are both about 140-140,000 to buy a new truck with heavy axle spec's etc.

Yes Mack has more expensive parts because you pretty well have to buy genuine Mack parts. U joints for example are allot more compared to a spicer unit for a another brand truck.

Mack has another problem its being Volvo'ized because Mack was bought out by Volvo. Not good because Volvo is expensive too you can buy the truck cheaper but the parts a CHA CHING.

If your looking for a Freightliner dump you look for the SD version (severe duty) they are built tougher.

Here is a few good trucks

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVjXwS8HzFw

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqeZUiicbwY

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMBUIbFG5Yg

www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8urT-sLWHU

I have driven 6v92 and 8v92 but never a 318 Detroit like in the last video :laugh:

hosejockey2002
11-21-2007, 01:55 AM
I don't have a ton of trucking experience but I'll throw in my .02. The first truck I drove was a KW that was an OTR tanker truck conversion. It had a 425 Cat that was a little tired but ran OK, and a 15 speed. I know GR disagreed, but there were many times that the deep reduction was a lifesaver. Fully loaded solo, the truck would easily idle backwards up a hill so steep it was difficult to walk up. Without the DR it would have been impossible. However, this truck had a setback 12K axle, and it was darn near impossible to keep from overloading the front axle.
The other trucks I drove for a short time were Western Star, one with an 8V92 Detroit and the other with a 425 Cat. Both trucks were old and beat to hell, but functioned very well as dump trucks. These trucks were built by Truckweld and speced as dumptrucks, and as far as being user friendly they were head and shoulders above the converted KW. They both had 13 speeds but what made the difference were 2 speed rear ends. This gave you a low enough gear to deal with literally any hill. Also, they had the bigger front axles with super singles so you didn't have to worry about being too heavy on the front.
IMHO, I would stay away from a converted OTR truck unless it had deep reduction, especially for off-road or steep hill use.

wanabe
11-21-2007, 07:54 AM
Mack has plenty of low end torque, which I found much better than the m-11 cummins. Big blocks are fine, but all they do is make me less $ at the end of the day. More empty weight=less $ per day. I guess you know that Mack can be ordered with components just like the others? We always had the eaton trans, and rearends, so I can not see why parts are higher than anyone else.

bobcat_ron
11-21-2007, 11:26 AM
Those Detriots sound like high speed farts in a fan.

dozerman21
11-21-2007, 10:22 PM
Macks are good dump trucks there is no doubt about it and even make good semis but they are not that popular at least around here. Mack use to be way more common than they are now.

Mack is very popular around here... especially for dumps. There are many companies big and small that will buy only Macks, and have for a long time. I see the old R models everywhere. I think the Granite series is an awesome looking truck. Macks and Petes are my favorite.

Fieldman12
11-21-2007, 10:49 PM
I dont know why Mack virtually disappeared around here. I remember a time when there was a bunch of Macks on the road. I have drove them before.

Fieldman12
11-21-2007, 10:59 PM
Here is a nice Mack!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZqbA51igb8

Gravel Rat
11-21-2007, 11:42 PM
The Series 60 big block is a good engine but nothing is really as good as a Cat. The 3406B is a good engine so was the old 400 Cummins Big Cam. I really don't like 2 stroke detroits. I don't like under powered trucks you really don't benefit anything buying a dump with anything less than 14 litre power.

Climbing hills in the basement isn't fun and constantly shifting to maintain any road speed gets old real quick. Climbing a 10% grade with 15 tons of gravel and your dropping down to 3rd (8or13spd). You try take a run at the hill but the truck is low powered so your not gaining much speed on the flat. Get to the bottom of the hill your dropping gears to maintain enough rpm. You got the 4 way flashers on get 1/4 the way up and your crawling. Can't grab the next gear because the truck is too gutless.

With the old 2 strokes you keep her pegged to the pin the old 400 Cummins you drop gears a little early before she bogs and hold her at a steady rpm she will blow lots of blue but all 400s do.

Gravel Rat
11-22-2007, 12:55 AM
Series 60 Big Block

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm1Rkj13qMM

Some heavy hauling

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp1f_EWJzRA&feature=related

One underpowered International :dizzy:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jfpSv4VbXs